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Post by DinCA on Jun 3, 2015 2:23:22 GMT
So what about hermaphodites? Adding to this, do you realize that 1 in 2000 babies are born with intersex sex organs - hermaphrodites. One in TWO THOUSAND. There are more people with both sexes (although a sex most likely was assigned) than there are Jews.
That doesn't exactly seem to be an abnormal birth defect. These people didn't choose it. And surely a baby in the womb is not being "punished." So what is your explanation. How could God do this? What if the "wrong" sex is selected for the baby (for what it's worth, it's against current wisdom to make a selection as an infant now, but it's been done since the beginning until just very, very recently) (Also, intersexed is the correct term now - not hermaphrodite.)
(There's an excellent documentary on this on Amazon - free on Prime - called Intersexion)
This makes me wonder how many intersex babies, assigned as an infant, even know that they are/were intersex. I'm generalizing, but I imagine there are parents who would have kept that information to themselves unless there was a medical need to share |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 2:50:18 GMT
DinCA - from what I learned in the documentary, they often require the use of hormones and some level of gender reassignment surgery, although I'm sure there are more and less severe cases. Apparently it used to be a question of "which do you want your child to be" but I guess that a lot of the choices turned out "wrong" at least based on how the child developed. And the surgery has often left the person unable to really have a normal sex life. That's why the current (and it's really very, very recent) thinking is to see how the child develops and then treat with the appropriate hormones, but to leave surgery out of the mix.
It really is a super interesting documentary. I had no idea it was that common. And it makes me wonder if transsexual and intersex are one and the same in many cases especially for those people who say that they always felt female or male.
Interestingly enough, there was a body builder guy in the documentary that you would have had absolutely no idea that he was born intersexed. He had absolutely no feminine traits whatsoever - SUPER masculine. But he said that the need to be masculine is what drove him to being so athletic (Bruce Jenner?). He also said that he was one that did not have normal sexual function due to surgery as a baby.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 2:58:04 GMT
DinCA - from what I learned in the documentary, they often require the use of hormones and some level of gender reassignment surgery, although I'm sure there are more and less severe cases. Apparently it used to be a question of "which do you want your child to be" but I guess that a lot of the choices turned out "wrong" at least based on how the child developed. And the surgery has often left the person unable to really have a normal sex life. That's why the current (and it's really very, very recent) thinking is to see how the child develops and then treat with the appropriate hormones, but to leave surgery out of the mix.
It really is a super interesting documentary. I had no idea it was that common. And it makes me wonder if transsexual and intersex are one and the same in many cases especially for those people who say that they always felt female or male.
Interestingly enough, there was a body builder guy in the documentary that you would have had absolutely no idea that he was born intersexed. He had absolutely no feminine traits whatsoever - SUPER masculine. But he said that the need to be masculine is what drove him to being so athletic (Bruce Jenner?). He also said that he was one that did not have normal sexual function due to surgery as a baby.
Not the same but there are some overlapping issues. www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersexwww.isna.org/faq/transgender (from the above link) |
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Post by mirabelleswalker on Jun 3, 2015 3:01:54 GMT
I didn't make the comment but I think Caitlyn was a popular name to give girls in the 70s-80s so the name hit it's peak in that era. All the Caitlyn's I know are late 30s currently. I think the idea is that Caitlyn could have chosen a name popular around her birthdate. (Nancy, Margaret, Kathleen, Elizabeth...IDK) as the name ages with that generation. When I read this thread the day it was started I thought Caitlyn was another Kardashin daughter so I didn't open it. That was before the pictures hit the news feed. To me Caitlyn is the name of someone in their 20's - 30's, not a 60 yr old, yet. Names age as the generation wearing them also ages  A member of my family is named Caitlin and she is 60. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 3:07:52 GMT
Perhaps I should have said overlap. I didn't intend to lump them all together. How many people who transition at a later age are actually the result of being unidentified intersex or incorrect gender assignment. And I think the further you go back, the more likely that is. People are much more forthcoming with medical information, but a generation or two before, medical things were not discussed nearly as freely.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jun 3, 2015 3:17:24 GMT
The other possibility is that God created Jenner a transgender woman to see if you would extend compassion or derision. This. I think the photo is amazing. I hope Caitlin is happy. I LOVE Laverne(?) in Orange is the New Black and I think she would be a lot of fun to get to know. Changing birth certificates makes me uncomfortable. My hangup, I admit. But if my child needed it changed, I'd support them. |
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Post by Skellinton on Jun 3, 2015 3:24:26 GMT
I think Caitlyn is beautiful, and I hope she is as happy as she looks to be!
John Stewart had a great segment on her today, really worth watching and I am so pleased that most of the media seems to be supportive. Say what you will about people seeking media attention I think she is incredibly brave and I hope her story makes other people have an easier transition and takes away some of the stigma and shame.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 3:32:24 GMT
I've read all these posts about how good he looks and how happy most people are for him and I'm not attacking anyone. I just stated my opinion which you obviously can't handle because it's different than yours. And you are right, nothing you can say will change my mind because I know in my heart what is right and what is wrong and I know what the Bible teaches. I form my opinions on that basis. If you perceive that as being narrow minded that's fine. God made him a man and he'll always be a man. If he wants to deceive himself that's not my problem. Some kind of test? Punishment for some sin? Does the bible explain that? I'm not being snarky, just genuinely curious. I have heard from others that "god doesn't make mistakes, he's supposed to be a man" and that it must be the devil's influence or a mental health disorder or sin that makes a person identify with the opposite gender. To me, that's a giant cop out. God gets all of the credit and none of the blame, because the blame always falls on the individual or some nefarious evil spirit and not on the all-powerful creator who doesn't make mistakes but creates people to live lives of suffering. So I would love to hear what the prevailing Christian wisdom is on this. In his past life he was a woman and that memory never went away? Can you tell I just watched something about a kid who remembers a past life?  It was very interesting. He remembers his life as some obscure Hollywood guy, but they were able to research him enough to validate the kid's memories. Including his memory that didn't match with what the research was. They later found info from people that knew this guy and they said that his memory was correct about that one fact and the researched info was wrong. |
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Post by Belia on Jun 3, 2015 3:58:52 GMT
I do think it is interesting that we (myself included) look at how attractive she is as a woman, What is that about? Would she be any less deserving of our admiration if she wasn't so physically attractive? Why do we do that to other women? (And that's probably the ultimate sign that she is being accepted as a woman, ) Well, when you pose half naked, in a corset and nothing else, with your boobs pushed up and your hair blown out, makeup all done.... I think you're asking to be judged based on your physical attractiveness. If this were David Beckham in a pair of tighty-whities, we'd be discussing his attractiveness as as man. As much as I am usually very happy to jump on the feminist train, I just can't do it here. CJ chose to present one particular side of herself to us in her first picture. I don't feel bad for dissecting what she has clearly chosen to highlight. |
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bethany102399
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by bethany102399 on Jun 3, 2015 4:03:40 GMT
She has been awarded the Artur Ash Courage award. Link |
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conchita
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Post by conchita on Jun 3, 2015 4:11:29 GMT
So why would a loving god create a man and then give him the feeling that he was really supposed to be a woman? Some kind of test? Punishment for some sin? Does the bible explain that? I'm not being snarky, just genuinely curious. I have heard from others that "god doesn't make mistakes, he's supposed to be a man" and that it must be the devil's influence or a mental health disorder or sin that makes a person identify with the opposite gender. To me, that's a giant cop out. God gets all of the credit and none of the blame, because the blame always falls on the individual or some nefarious evil spirit and not on the all-powerful creator who doesn't make mistakes but creates people to live lives of suffering. So I would love to hear what the prevailing Christian wisdom is on this. In his past life he was a woman and that memory never went away? Can you tell I just watched something about a kid who remembers a past life? It was very interesting. He remembers his life as some obscure Hollywood guy, but they were able to research him enough to validate the kid's memories. Including his memory that didn't match with what the research was. They later found info from people that knew this guy and they said that his memory was correct about that one fact and the researched info was wrong. Okay Gia, what movie is this? I'd love to add this to my must watch list! Sounds intriguing.  |
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Post by alittleintrepid on Jun 3, 2015 13:24:44 GMT
I do think it is interesting that we (myself included) look at how attractive she is as a woman, What is that about? Would she be any less deserving of our admiration if she wasn't so physically attractive? Why do we do that to other women? (And that's probably the ultimate sign that she is being accepted as a woman, ) Well, when you pose half naked, in a corset and nothing else, with your boobs pushed up and your hair blown out, makeup all done.... I think you're asking to be judged based on your physical attractiveness. If this were David Beckham in a pair of tighty-whities, we'd be discussing his attractiveness as as man. As much as I am usually very happy to jump on the feminist train, I just can't do it here. CJ chose to present one particular side of herself to us in her first picture. I don't feel bad for dissecting what she has clearly chosen to highlight. Sure, she has chosen to highlight her appearance in a society that values pretty women. I don't feel bad about it but I don't think we'd be half as critical if David Beckham was in his tightly-whites. You'd probably have lots of admiration for the eye candy and then some Refupeas would find other specimens that they prefer. I suspect that the image of Caitlyn in corset etc. was contrived on her/her publicists part in anticipation of this reaction. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 20:58:54 GMT
In his past life he was a woman and that memory never went away? Can you tell I just watched something about a kid who remembers a past life? It was very interesting. He remembers his life as some obscure Hollywood guy, but they were able to research him enough to validate the kid's memories. Including his memory that didn't match with what the research was. They later found info from people that knew this guy and they said that his memory was correct about that one fact and the researched info was wrong. Okay Gia, what movie is this? I'd love to add this to my must watch list! Sounds intriguing. Not a movie, even better, it was a segment about what a real kid remembers on a Dr Oz show. I don't normally watch him, but happened to catch it when I saw what they were talking about. That kind of thing is so fascinating to me. |
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jun 3, 2015 22:44:00 GMT
The other possibility is that God created Jenner a transgender woman to see if you would extend compassion or derision. Perfect response!!! |
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StephDRebel
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Post by StephDRebel on Jun 3, 2015 22:52:03 GMT
I hesitated to reply because I don't want to hijack this thread but you did ask. We live in a fallen world where sin prevails. We choose our own path. Why would you want to blame a loving sovereign God for what sinful man chooses to do? People want to blame God so they don't have to take responsibility for their own actions when they suffer the consequences of their sin. God does not make mistakes. He would not create someone in his likeness and give him the desire to be the opposite gender. That is from the enemy. The more one sins the more it becomes natural to him. I can't quite figure out how you are saying god doesn't make mistakes, but with your views isn't the fact that every part of her except for genitalia is clearly female saying that god made a ton of 'mistakes' with this 'man'? Maybe the penis was the only mistake on a wonderful woman....or maybe she's just as god intended. |
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conchita
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Post by conchita on Jun 3, 2015 22:59:57 GMT
Or perhaps God doesn't judge us according to our outward appearance at all but rather the condition of our soul?
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Post by nightnurse on Jun 4, 2015 0:44:17 GMT
I hesitated to reply because I don't want to hijack this thread but you did ask. We live in a fallen world where sin prevails. We choose our own path. Why would you want to blame a loving sovereign God for what sinful man chooses to do? People want to blame God so t hey don't have to take responsibility for their own actions when they suffer the consequences of their sin. God does not make mistakes. He would not create someone in his likeness and give him the desire to be the opposite gender. That is from the enemy. The more one sins the more it becomes natural to him. First, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer. I'm really interested in your perspective, because it is so foreign to me. In the bolded part, what would be Caitlyn's sin? Feeling like a woman in a man's body? But if that came from "the enemy" was her sin being weak? Most transgendered people I know, or know of, had the feeling of not matching their genitalia very early in life, like around 5 or 6, or even before. How can a little child sin like that? Is it fair for a "loving sovereign god" to allow them to be overtaken by "the enemy" at such a young age? And I'm not singling you out, tarheelgurl, I'd welcome any Christian's (or non-Christian's) perspective. Because it makes no sense to me! As an atheist, I don't have to reconcile it. It seems simple-a fluke of nature, brain and body developing differently, and isn't it amazing that we live in a world with the technology to help people like Caitlyn feel whole and true to themselves. |
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Jun 4, 2015 0:47:53 GMT
She looks lovely.
I feel this is a truly important moment in the trans community.
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