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Post by mollycoddle on Jun 30, 2015 0:33:03 GMT
too many to address individually... So I'll say this to those that have quoted me above - I really, truly feel sorry for your inability to see varying viewpoints. I feel sad that you jump to conclusions so quickly. I mean that honestly - not trying to be snarky or condescending. It saddens me that people of this age, who presumably are raising children/voting/etc. are so quick to lash out at someone for a viewpoint, without even knowing what those viewpoints are. It is based in a willful ignorance. FTR, I don't have any problem with homosexuality. I figure that if it is a sin, that's between God and them. Not of my concern. Two men being married doesn't affect my marriage. Can I still live in the 21st century? LOL I do have a problem with people speaking for everyone else though. If you say something that I find illogical or untruthful, like the "love the sinner" comment, I'll voice my opinion. It really is better to try to look at things from a variety of vantage points. To dismiss someone simply because they don't wave the same flag you do, or as wildly, is shortchanging them, and yourself. I just don't have a lot of patience with this argument. Why do you(general you) find it necessary to poke your collective noses into someone else's life? How is it anyone's business? Do people have the right to voice their opinions? Yup, absolutely. But I have to wonder why they are so invested in the lives of others that they feel the need to meddle.
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 30, 2015 0:46:49 GMT
see - there ya go. 21st century is leaving me in the dust? LOL. I'm guessing that people that can analyze situations and see multiple sides to issues are going to fare much better in the world than those who are so close-minded that they can't see beyond their own opinions. So many of us have family on both sides of the debate that we have to be able to do that. We have to learn to see each side and not judge either side, while co-existing with all. I think that is what is getting lost in these debates is that some people understand both sides and try to explain it to those who don't, and it's being mistaken for agreeing with it and then piling on. I may be wrong, but that's what it looks like from here. I think the difference is that in some families it isn't a hypothetical discussion. There is a family member who is gay and yo tell them that you hate the "sin" when that "sin" is just being who you are, it is hateful and hurtful. You are better off saying nothing at all. There is a huge difference between lying, stealing, killing something (all sins) and living the life you were born into (not a sin).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 2:15:46 GMT
So many of us have family on both sides of the debate that we have to be able to do that. We have to learn to see each side and not judge either side, while co-existing with all. I think that is what is getting lost in these debates is that some people understand both sides and try to explain it to those who don't, and it's being mistaken for agreeing with it and then piling on. I may be wrong, but that's what it looks like from here.
I think the difference is that in some families it isn't a hypothetical discussion. There is a family member who is gay and yo tell them that you hate the "sin" when that "sin" is just being who you are, it is hateful and hurtful. You are better off saying nothing at all. There is a huge difference between lying, stealing, killing something (all sins) and living the life you were born into (not a sin). No difference there. That's exactly what I'm saying.
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Post by lucyg on Jun 30, 2015 3:24:48 GMT
All righty then. Keep working on convincing people to walk away from their LGBQT "lifestyle." Good luck with that. Oh my word. Did you read that in any of my posts? Any of them? You have no clue what my opinion is on this matter. Which is proving my point exactly. It sure seems like you are assuming that since I don't jump on your side of the fence 100% I must be totally against everything you like. That type of thinking will get you nowhere. It is really quite sad. If you get nothing else from this thread, get this: people can have the same opinion (or similar) as you and STILL be able to see the opposing side's viewpoint. Again, it never ceases to amaze me when people that scream for tolerance and acceptance the most have very little to share themselves. Oh FFS. So after all that nonsense, you don't even really believe the points you were arguing? Or am I "misunderstanding" you again? This discussion did not begin with hostility but you seem to be wallowing in it now. Let me make my point once again in short, easy-to-understand language. You (or the people you are speaking on behalf of, whatever, I don't really care) can approve or disapprove of homosexuals and/or same-sex marriage. That is your business. However, when you (or your peeps) make a point of expressing to the gay people in question your/their disapproval of the gay people and/or the way the gay people live their lives, you are likely to hurt feelings and alienate people you claim to love. You want to argue that your religious beliefs trump loved ones' feelings, be my guest. Please understand and accept that you will piss off other people around you, gay or gay-friendly, when you do it. Please understand further that when you persist in being smirky, condescending, and now I will add self-congratulatory in your delivery, you are also going to piss off other people around you. TL;DR version: Yes, you are entitled to your opinions. No, you are not entitled to think others won't disagree with you, won't be hurt by your words, and, more to the point, won't greatly dislike your delivery. I am done now. You may carry on without me. I freely give you the last word.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 1, 2015 14:33:23 GMT
Here is a great blog post by a pastor you could put on your FB. It was very poignant for me. I have always out of respect avoided being outward in my gayness on Facebook. This weekend, I changed the profile image to the gay flag. I'm sure there were a lot of background conversations, and my mom even changed her profile picture to one of the cross on a red background instead of the equal sign. One thing to remind those who oppose gay sexuality and marriage is that the "love the sinner" euphemism isn't really working. Can you really call something love if the recipient doesn't recognize it as love. linkI just posted that on FB. tfs The same can be said for those suffering from emotional or mental turmoil. Lepers You're welcome Lefty - I completely agree. The church has created many leper colonies, while constructing the equivalent of the Berlin wall or Great Wall of China between itself and these communities.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 1, 2015 14:39:57 GMT
I'm back. I want to state something "for the record" that I think many just can't understand (or won't) let alone believe. A person can disagree with same-sex marriage and still love their LGBT family members with all their hearts. I, in fact, have concerns about same-sex marriage based on my faith. Despite that, I love my daughter with all my heart and soul. I am supporting her decision because it is HER life and she's reached the age that I no longer can dictate what she believes nor what does. As if I ever could. She knows my beliefs and she knows how much I love her. The two are not mutually exclusive. I would bet the uncle involve in this matter feels exactly the same. I am so, so, so, so tired of being painted with the broad brush so many here and elsewhere paint people like me. Yes there are haters and bigots with loud mouths that twist things into very ugly fashion. I, LIKE MOST OF THE PEOPLE I KNOW LIKE ME, am not those people. Here's the main difference Wingnut. If you were constantly telling your daughter your reservations, or trying to convince her that she's a sinner going to hell every chance you got, or if you were constantly talking about how disgusting gay sexuality was or how repulsive gay marriage is...then I would venture to say that your relationship with her would be strained as a result. If you were to refuse to allow her spouse or future spouse or girlfriend to come to family gatherings or holidays, you would probably lose her forever. That's where for me the difference lies. You seem to be doing the best to maintain a positive relationship with her which doesn't include brow beating her constantly. That's a wonderful thing.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 1, 2015 14:43:56 GMT
Here is a great blog post by a pastor you could put on your FB. It was very poignant for me. I have always out of respect avoided being outward in my gayness on Facebook. This weekend, I changed the profile image to the gay flag. I'm sure there were a lot of background conversations, and my mom even changed her profile picture to one of the cross on a red background instead of the equal sign. One thing to remind those who oppose gay sexuality and marriage is that the "love the sinner" euphemism isn't really working. Can you really call something love if the recipient doesn't recognize it as love. linkOf course you can. I'm quite certain that my children did not feel loved when I put them in time out, even though my actions were based in the great love I have for them. I totally believe "love the sinner" is a great way to look at issues that might arise. I admit that it is hard for me to get past some sins, and my attitude towards the people committing them is negative. That's a fault that I own, and I am trying to get past it. But for the most part, I do what I can to find some level of love for people around me, even if they aren't perfect Here's the thing, with agape love, there are no buts or ifs. There's just love. No strings attached. That is how we are supposed to love. Christ told us to let our light shine in the darkness so that others will see and ask about the hope that we have. If our light is obscured by how we present our beliefs, then we might as well not bother. It isn't always the message, but the approach. Kudos for you for admitting you have some biases. That's the first step in growing as a Christian. But you can call it love, but if the other person cannot relate to it or feels ostracized by it...they are not going to ever be receptive to what you have to say. That's why it is the Holy Sprit's job to convict, it is our job to live a Godly life as an example, not go out and condemn.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 1, 2015 14:49:45 GMT
Of course you can. I'm quite certain that my children did not feel loved when I put them in time out, even though my actions were based in the great love I have for them. I totally believe "love the sinner" is a great way to look at issues that might arise. I admit that it is hard for me to get past some sins, and my attitude towards the people committing them is negative. That's a fault that I own, and I am trying to get past it. But for the most part, I do what I can to find some level of love for people around me, even if they aren't perfect Please don't equate your gay friends and family with your misbehaving children who require correction. Well, perhaps "equate" is too strong a word. How about, please don't put both of those concepts in the same sentence. Of course jonda1974 can speak for himself, but I think he means that calling something love doesn't necessarily make it so. I'm not sure those of you espousing the hate-the-sin-love-the-sinner concept realize that it looks very hollow to the rest of us ... a kind of defensive way to say yeah, we're still good people, so don't call us haters. Or even, we really don't have a problem with gay people, but our church tells us we have to disapprove, so here's the compromise. Unfortunately, much of the time, the end result is the SOS for many young gay people. In the end, you're entitled to whatever opinion you like. But realize that an ever-growing percentage of the population just doesn't care anymore and isn't terribly impressed by I-love-you-but ... Thanks Lucy, this is it...It's the "I love you, but"...it doesn't ring true. Real love has no if, ands, or buts. It comes across as insincere and hollow, and quite honestly, it is the responsibility of the person giving "love" to make sure that the recipient feels that and recognizes it as love. Also, thanks to you and Merge for the analogy clarification. You are right, we are not children who need to be reprimanded, and if we do need to be reprimanded that is the role of the Holy Spirit, not someone else. The church is in decline, BECAUSE of their approach, NOT because of their message.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 1, 2015 14:52:25 GMT
I was addressing your statement that equated love to a corrective action, and pointing out that while that might be appropriate for a child, it is not for an adult who is not harming anyone. Supporting legislation to apply your religious beliefs to another adult's personal life is not love. That's where the "love the sinner" part rings hollow for me. Because of YOUR opinion on the matter. From someone that truly believes that homosexuality is sinful, doing whatever you can to prevent them, discourage them, etc., from participating in that sin most definitely IS showing love. From YOUR opinion it is love...but it comes with strings attached. How about letting the Holy Spirit do his work, and you just be a friend or family member who loves unconditionally. It isn't our place as Christians to condemn anything. Why? Because "For God sent not his Son into the world to CONDEMN the world, but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:17 Christ wasn't sent to condemn, he was sent to save. Even the woman at the well, he first showed her love and compassion, not condemnation, the he provided a road map for a better life. But that was AFTER she was receptive to his message as a result of how he treated her.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 1, 2015 14:56:16 GMT
I don't think either of us is offended, but please, carry on with your smirking and condescension. Not interested in our point of view? Not a problem. Just don't be surprised when the 21st century leaves you choking on its dust. see - there ya go. 21st century is leaving me in the dust? LOL. I'm guessing that people that can analyze situations and see multiple sides to issues are going to fare much better in the world than those who are so close-minded that they can't see beyond their own opinions. The Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin is not working...the Christian church is declining, as a direct result of their approach. Christians will be judged harshly for being so pompous and proud in their approach. I'm not saying you are, I'm talking in general from what I am seeing as a whole. If your (collective) approach is pushing people away from a desire to accept Christ as Savior, how is that an example of his love and your faithfulness to the Great Commission?
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 1, 2015 15:01:02 GMT
All righty then. Keep working on convincing people to walk away from their LGBQT "lifestyle." Good luck with that. Oh my word. Did you read that in any of my posts? Any of them? You have no clue what my opinion is on this matter. Which is proving my point exactly. It sure seems like you are assuming that since I don't jump on your side of the fence 100% I must be totally against everything you like. That type of thinking will get you nowhere. It is really quite sad. If you get nothing else from this thread, get this: people can have the same opinion (or similar) as you and STILL be able to see the opposing side's viewpoint. Again, it never ceases to amaze me when people that scream for tolerance and acceptance the most have very little to share themselves. No comment on this other than the last sentence...there is no need to be tolerant of intolerance. That would be like telling a black person they needed to be tolerant of a KKK member.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 1, 2015 15:09:29 GMT
see - there ya go. 21st century is leaving me in the dust? LOL. I'm guessing that people that can analyze situations and see multiple sides to issues are going to fare much better in the world than those who are so close-minded that they can't see beyond their own opinions. So many of us have family on both sides of the debate that we have to be able to do that. We have to learn to see each side and not judge either side, while co-existing with all. I think that is what is getting lost in these debates is that some people understand both sides and try to explain it to those who don't, and it's being mistaken for agreeing with it and then piling on. I may be wrong, but that's what it looks like from here. I have family on the opposing side...I have remained respectful and tolerant of their opinions to the point of sacrificing my own happiness to not disrupt theirs...I'm done being tolerant or understanding of intolerance, and yes, the love the sinner, hate the sin...it's condescending. It's the "I'm better than you, but I guess I'll still love you anyway...well I'll still love parts of you...well I will be nice to your face..." scenario. I'm done with it.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 1, 2015 15:11:15 GMT
I think that to most of us, the Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin mantra comes off as really condescending and as I said upthread, it only seems to apply when discussing gay rights. I have NEVER heard it used in any other context. I know in the case of my DS, all he wants to hear is "I love you." No qualifiers. Nothing more has to be explained because he knows how the person feels already (whether they view him as a sinner or not). Then you live in a different world than I do. Because I hear it for all sorts of sins. Mostly alcohol abuse. Not to be crass, but if that were completely true of all Christians, then we wouldn't have some of the most obese ministers I've ever seen, and they are at the first of the line at Church pot lucks...You don't hear the congregation pulling him to the side, and saying, we love you, but we can't have you as our minister as long as you are overweight, because gluttony is a sin, and a sinner can't be in the pulpit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 15:37:35 GMT
So many of us have family on both sides of the debate that we have to be able to do that. We have to learn to see each side and not judge either side, while co-existing with all. I think that is what is getting lost in these debates is that some people understand both sides and try to explain it to those who don't, and it's being mistaken for agreeing with it and then piling on. I may be wrong, but that's what it looks like from here. I have family on the opposing side...I have remained respectful and tolerant of their opinions to the point of sacrificing my own happiness to not disrupt theirs...I'm done being tolerant or understanding of intolerance, and yes, the love the sinner, hate the sin...it's condescending. It's the "I'm better than you, but I guess I'll still love you anyway...well I'll still love parts of you...well I will be nice to your face..." scenario. I'm done with it. I've seen many of my gay friends take this same stance after the ruling last week and it makes me really happy. No one should have the right to put their happiness and desires above who you are. The one big thing that I have always told my DS is that he needs to be true to himself first and foremost and never to be ashamed of who he is. It's really hard when dealing with family who just don't get it but at the end of the day, that's on them. This has been a really interesting thread and I think I have a better understanding about where people are coming from. I have made my internal peace with my cousin and now it's on me (us) to decide now how to move forward.
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Post by Dixie Lou on Jul 1, 2015 16:11:31 GMT
I personally do not care what other people do in their bedrooms as it doesn't affect me. I have gay/lesbian friends whom I love dearly. I have friends who are straight who are excited about SC ruling from Friday. Many have shown their support/excitement on facebook and I'm fine with that.
My belief is that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just because legally something has changed doesn't mean the definition of marriage that I believe is true has changed. There are lots of things that are legal that to me are morally wrong. I won't call out any of my friends who do any of these things because I make my own choices for my life and they make theirs. I still love them and do not judge them. We know where we stand on issues and it's rarely a topic of conversation. For instance, I do not drink alcohol but when I am out with friends and they drink beer, wine or whatever, I am totally fine with what they do. I'm a grown adult and have made my choice to follow what I believe is right but I don't deny their right to drink. It's the same (to me) as same-sex marriage.
My friends on facebook have been pretty vocal in their show of approval for same-sex marriage. I am not going to "like" their comment nor am I going to unfriend or unfollow them. There are many friends who have avoided the topic altogether (on facebook.) I have posted a statement of my church's response to the ruling. I want people to know where I stand. No arguments wanted or expected. Not saying anything is in essence agreeing with something that I believe is morally wrong. That doesn't mean that I don't treasure these friendships or accept them as part of my "circle."
I hope that my friends don't take that as judgement from me but only as a difference of belief/opinion. They shared theirs and I shared mine. Done. I truly hope we can continue to be friends and respectful of each other as we have for years.
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Post by traceys on Jul 1, 2015 18:51:00 GMT
I make my own choices for my life and they make theirs. I still love them and do not judge them. We know where we stand on issues and it's rarely a topic of conversation. This. I cant remember the last time I might've discussed a friend's sin with them, or that they have discussed mine with me. I don't know who spends their time doing that?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 19:06:53 GMT
I personally do not care what other people do in their bedrooms as it doesn't affect me. I have gay/lesbian friends whom I love dearly. I have friends who are straight who are excited about SC ruling from Friday. Many have shown their support/excitement on facebook and I'm fine with that. My belief is that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just because legally something has changed doesn't mean the definition of marriage that I believe is true has changed. There are lots of things that are legal that to me are morally wrong. I won't call out any of my friends who do any of these things because I make my own choices for my life and they make theirs. I still love them and do not judge them. We know where we stand on issues and it's rarely a topic of conversation. For instance, I do not drink alcohol but when I am out with friends and they drink beer, wine or whatever, I am totally fine with what they do. I'm a grown adult and have made my choice to follow what I believe is right but I don't deny their right to drink. It's the same (to me) as same-sex marriage. My friends on facebook have been pretty vocal in their show of approval for same-sex marriage. I am not going to "like" their comment nor am I going to unfriend or unfollow them. There are many friends who have avoided the topic altogether (on facebook.) I have posted a statement of my church's response to the ruling. I want people to know where I stand. No arguments wanted or expected. Not saying anything is in essence agreeing with something that I believe is morally wrong. That doesn't mean that I don't treasure these friendships or accept them as part of my "circle." I hope that my friends don't take that as judgement from me but only as a difference of belief/opinion. They shared theirs and I shared mine. Done. I truly hope we can continue to be friends and respectful of each other as we have for years. I think the only difference in your analogy is that because you feel it's morally wrong, you would never personally have a "gay" marriage just as you won't have a drink. The hard part comes in when people feel that because THEY don't approve of gay marriage that no one else should be able to have one. Just because you don't drink because you feel it's morally wrong, you're not saying that no one should drink. it's your choice, just as no one is forcing you to marry a woman
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2015 20:04:41 GMT
I just posted that on FB. tfs The same can be said for those suffering from emotional or mental turmoil. Lepers You're welcome Lefty - I completely agree. The church has created many leper colonies, while constructing the equivalent of the Berlin wall or Great Wall of China between itself and these communities. And it isn't working out so well for them! Smh... I watched a church die. It's a great loss I will carry with me forever. But that was a natural loss due to the congregation all moving away physically. This is different. This is a direct challenge to the principles a church stands on. Are you a church who believes that the greatest commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself, or is your priority that of a judgemental body? That's a fair test.
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Post by christine58 on Jul 1, 2015 20:34:32 GMT
WAIT>..where did @scrappower go??? It says she has zero posts and her name isn't blue???
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