jayfab
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Jun 26, 2014 21:55:15 GMT
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Post by jayfab on Jul 13, 2015 0:54:23 GMT
But if you just work hard, everything will be ok, right? Yup! This should be mandatory reading for EVERY politician.
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Deleted
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May 17, 2024 22:41:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 0:55:19 GMT
I'd love to read the comments but I can't get them to load. I've tried chrome and IE.
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Post by Merge on Jul 13, 2015 1:40:02 GMT
Yup. DH and I have lived that life - we were fortunate enough to have the education and family support to eventually do better. Fully realize not everyone is so lucky.
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Post by beebee on Jul 13, 2015 1:44:51 GMT
So many people are one catastrophe away from poverty. I know people will come on and say that most people in poverty are living outside their means, but in reality they can't be, because they don't have credit. They have to pay cash for everything. When the cash runs out, they have nothing until the next paycheck. When I was a first year teacher, granted it was a long time ago, I took home $985 a month. I was lucky enough to have a fixed income apartment in the small town where I taught, but I had student loan payments and a car payment. The last week before my next pay check, I was living off what I had in the house to eat and hoping nothing happened. I did have a credit card, but I tried not to use it. You can be living outside your means without credit. I have two young nephews who are experiencing this right now. They're young and struggling to find regular, steady employment. They asked for my assistance in developing a budget - and I have to say despite their circumstances, they are still living outside their means - and it's not through credit. Their biggest issue will be housing. The reality of their income means they really, really need to economize drastically right now when it comes to housing, or they will see the article's scenario of one too many rainy days = unsteady work = eviction. But they insist they need a 2 bedroom apartment. I fully understand that it's not ideal to share a room when you're 21 and 23. But if they would share a room for a short period of time and build a bit of a cushion for the times when they know they won't have full income (their work is VERY seasonal) they wouldn't be facing a near certainty of eviction with all the associated costs involved. They went forward with renting an apartment that they really can only afford if everything goes perfectly - and we all know that things will not go perfectly. I completely agree with the previous posters that poverty is complex and there aren't easy fixes. But there are some things that I do wish were emphasized and housing, as it's such a huge portion of everyone's budget, is one of them. Proximity to transportation is another. It's one of the things that drives me crazy with low income housing. There is often little to no emphasis on proximity to transportation routes and/or jobs and shopping. You can't just throw up some low income housing in the middle of nowhere and expect people to thrive or even sustain themselves with no reliable transportation to schools and work. Just an idea, but my husband saved the money to buy a 4,000 camper/trailer before he started college. He found a place to park it and lived in it throughout college. After college, he sold the trailer for about the same amount. He did work throughout college, but he came out of college almost debt free due to his very low level of living. Now granted, it took him awhile to save the money for the trailer, but he got there with time and working long hours.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Jul 13, 2015 2:08:04 GMT
If you are interested in this subject, I would also recommend the Minimum Wage episode of 30 Days. Morgan Spurlock (of Super Size Me fame) and his fiancé try to live 30 days on minimum wage - it was quite eye opening - they would be squeaking by and then some little thing would go wrong and they would be trying to dig themselves out of a financial hole. link to synopsis
thanks for sharing the article - I put the book on reserve at the library. I have watched that. It was interesting.
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kate
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Post by kate on Jul 13, 2015 3:24:35 GMT
Wow, I looked at the book on Amazon and now have a bunch more books on my summer reading list! Thanks - I think!
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Post by mrsscrapdiva on Jul 13, 2015 13:39:34 GMT
I have some friends from the past that were like this and a few in my current circle of friends. Sometimes I feel like it is one bad thing after another happening for them, but when I really look at it, it is more like one bad decision after another. Also that desperation and sadness that happens with being broke kinda messes up their decision making for purchases. And the thought of "oh well, I don't have money for that so I might as well do xyz". And the bad things that are happening really aren't that horrible, but when you have no money, those bad things seem really bad.
I will admit that discussing this gives me anxiety. I made a lot of bad decisions in my past financially but I see the light now. I can pinpoint where I went wrong. Is my financial situation perfect? No, but I more aware of needs vs wants and watching out for situations that are not financially sound.
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Post by melanell on Jul 13, 2015 13:51:09 GMT
If you are interested in this subject, I would also recommend the Minimum Wage episode of 30 Days. Morgan Spurlock (of Super Size Me fame) and his fiancé try to live 30 days on minimum wage - it was quite eye opening - they would be squeaking by and then some little thing would go wrong and they would be trying to dig themselves out of a financial hole. link to synopsis
thanks for sharing the article - I put the book on reserve at the library. I have watched that. It was interesting. So did I, but it was quite some time ago. I seem to recall her getting sick or hurting herself or something and it was such a problem. I read Nickel & Dimed as well. I felt myself becoming more and more depressed just reading that book, never mind actually living it out.
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smartypants71
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Jun 25, 2014 22:47:49 GMT
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Post by smartypants71 on Jul 13, 2015 14:12:07 GMT
I get so irritated when driving through some of our poorer neighborhoods. There is a paycheck advance/title lending place on EVERY CORNER. I can't figure out how those people get around usury laws. Once you get started on one of these loans, you are in a hole that you will have a very difficult time digging your way out of. I hate that these types of businesses prey on the poor.
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Post by melanell on Jul 13, 2015 14:17:02 GMT
I understand what you're saying, but I'll also throw out there that sometimes it seems like one bad thing happens after another because what's just a "thing" for some people really is a "bad thing" for others. I know someone who recently made the move out of public housing to a rental home. Now that should be a very good thing. Someone working their way out of the system, right? They (A couple. One worked, one did not. The one who does not has several medical issues which is why they are not currently working.) had given their deposit, moved in, and before the next month's rent was even due, their one car died. And then, within 3 days of that happening, the person working was laid off. Now, I know someone else who was laid off recently. But her husband was still working his full time job. And it was pretty much a non-issue for her. Yeah, she didn't like it, and she was a little nervous about it at first, but they just cut back on their spending and all was well. It wasn't a big bad thing. And if my car died right now, I'd be annoyed, but I'd be out today looking to buy a new one. It wouldn't be a bad thing. I wouldn't be on FB bemoaning my bad luck. I'd be saying "Dudes! Look! A new car! ". But for this other couple, both of these things were bad things. They saved enough to get into that apartment, but they didn't have 6 months' wages saved. Or even one month's wages saved. They were scrambling to figure out how to pay the upcoming rent because it was due before his unemployment checks would start. And trying to figure out how to squeeze a car payment out of the checks when they did start. And this is just the kind of thing that can send someone who is trying to better their situation falling right back again.
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pudgygroundhog
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Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Jul 13, 2015 14:26:35 GMT
I agree with what everybody here is saying. I feel like there is this perception that poor people are lazy or are spending all their money on non-necessities. Yes, there will be people like that in every socio-economic class, but overall I agree that poverty is much more complex than simply "work harder". I read Nickel and Dimed and it was an interesting read (the book posted here sounds interesting too). One of my main takeaways was that housing is the biggest inhibitor for poor people. And at the time of that book, the poverty level did not take into account housing (it was an archaic formula based on groceries or something like that). Low income housing is often not easily accessible to where the jobs are and transportation can be a big issue.
I had no idea about all the different housing laws. It's too bad that housing is one of the biggest hurdles facing poor people and the laws make it harder to save money in that regard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 15:51:31 GMT
“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.” Ben Franklin
It absolutely is a complex problem, only made more complex by government largess and "help". Government traps people in poverty. There is no way around that fact, and it only gets worse with each and every new "helping hand" extended. We have spent two generations now, telling people that they won't be poor anymore if we just pass one more welfare program. Trillions of dollars later, we have more poor than ever, and are making more every single day.
We have also been telling them that they SHOULDN'T work harder, because if they work harder, they will lose that government money, subsidies, programs, SNAP, WIC, child care credits, cell phones etc, and will probably end up with less money than they had when they worked fewer hours or a job that required no skill set. So why would many poor people choose to work harder, even though they WANT to, when doing so will cause them to harm their families when government money is withdrawn?
It is fact, that in many states, welfare programs pay as much as a $15/hr job. Tax free. So why would someone bust their butt at a minimum wage job, to learn the skills needed to advance to better jobs, when advancing to those jobs would cost them so much money??
In short, You are ignoring, as bleeding hearts are wont to do, human nature. Human nature will always dictate that humans will take the "easy" way, even if it is not in their best interests in the long run. Once upon a time, it was shameful to be on government welfare, or even to have to ask for help from your church. Now it is almost a badge of honor. But we have eroded that very helpful notion of shame, because we decided that people shouldn't have their feelings hurt. We had to do away with actual food stamps, in favor of debit cards, so that people didn't feel shame in the grocery line.
I am of the same opinion as Ben Franklin. Do not make it easy to stay poor. That is the cruelest form of "help" you can offer.
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Post by blondiec47 on Jul 13, 2015 15:57:25 GMT
“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.” Ben Franklin
It absolutely is a complex problem, only made more complex by government largess and "help". Government traps people in poverty. There is no way around that fact, and it only gets worse with each and every new "helping hand" extended. We have spent two generations now, telling people that they won't be poor anymore if we just pass one more welfare program. Trillions of dollars later, we have more poor than ever, and are making more every single day. We have also been telling them that they SHOULDN'T work harder, because if they work harder, they will lose that government money, subsidies, programs, SNAP, WIC, child care credits, cell phones etc, and will probably end up with less money than they had when they worked fewer hours or a job that required no skill set. So why would many poor people choose to work harder, even though they WANT to, when doing so will cause them to harm their families when government money is withdrawn? It is fact, that in many states, welfare programs pay as much as a $15/hr job. Tax free. So why would someone bust their butt at a minimum wage job, to learn the skills needed to advance to better jobs, when advancing to those jobs would cost them so much money?? In short, You are ignoring, as bleeding hearts are wont to do, human nature. Human nature will always dictate that humans will take the "easy" way, even if it is not in their best interests in the long run. Once upon a time, it was shameful to be on government welfare, or even to have to ask for help from your church. Now it is almost a badge of honor. But we have eroded that very helpful notion of shame, because we decided that people shouldn't have their feelings hurt. We had to do away with actual food stamps, in favor of debit cards, so that people didn't feel shame in the grocery line. I am of the same opinion as Ben Franklin. Do not make it easy to stay poor. That is the cruelest form of "help" you can offer. Lylam, I really wish you would lay off the condescending remarks. I do agree with most of what you say here, but was the "as bleeding hearts are wont to do" necessary?
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Post by lucyg on Jul 13, 2015 16:04:56 GMT
“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.” Ben Franklin
It absolutely is a complex problem, only made more complex by government largess and "help". Government traps people in poverty. There is no way around that fact, and it only gets worse with each and every new "helping hand" extended. We have spent two generations now, telling people that they won't be poor anymore if we just pass one more welfare program. Trillions of dollars later, we have more poor than ever, and are making more every single day. We have also been telling them that they SHOULDN'T work harder, because if they work harder, they will lose that government money, subsidies, programs, SNAP, WIC, child care credits, cell phones etc, and will probably end up with less money than they had when they worked fewer hours or a job that required no skill set. So why would many poor people choose to work harder, even though they WANT to, when doing so will cause them to harm their families when government money is withdrawn? It is fact, that in many states, welfare programs pay as much as a $15/hr job. Tax free. So why would someone bust their butt at a minimum wage job, to learn the skills needed to advance to better jobs, when advancing to those jobs would cost them so much money?? In short, You are ignoring, as bleeding hearts are wont to do, human nature. Human nature will always dictate that humans will take the "easy" way, even if it is not in their best interests in the long run. Once upon a time, it was shameful to be on government welfare, or even to have to ask for help from your church. Now it is almost a badge of honor. But we have eroded that very helpful notion of shame, because we decided that people shouldn't have their feelings hurt. We had to do away with actual food stamps, in favor of debit cards, so that people didn't feel shame in the grocery line. I am of the same opinion as Ben Franklin. Do not make it easy to stay poor. That is the cruelest form of "help" you can offer. Lylam, I really wish you would lay off the condescending remarks. I do agree with most of what you say here, but was the "as bleeding hearts are wont to do" necessary? Funny thing is, I was just thinking, "Go Lynlam!" I thought that, bleeding heart name-calling aside, it was the least offensive post I've seen from her in a long time. I vote for keeping this Lynlam.
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Post by melanell on Jul 13, 2015 17:25:18 GMT
So, I'm out with my kids today and suddenly my car just makes this awful noise, shudders, and stops. Now, a few days/weeks (?) ago I was here saying how much I love my car and then I just posted this today and I'm sitting there waiting for the tow truck thinking "I jinxed myself!! I am going to be showing pics of a new car on FB! But for as God-awful as it sounded, the fix is only a few hundred bucks, so I'm keeping my car a bit longer. I love my car, so I am very happy about this. I had been online looking at new models of the same car when the garage called to give me the good news. But, it really did drive home my point to me. It was a hassle. We were making calls, juggling kids, blah, blah, blah, but never did we say "OMG, what are we going to do?? How are we going to take care of this?". And for that I am very grateful. And my heart goes out to anyone who would have to deal with this issue as a personal catastrophe instead of just an irritation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 18:54:26 GMT
Sorry lucyg I'm not going to give @lynlam a pass on her post. @lynlam needs to get out of that bubble she lives in and see the real world. First she is assuming that all poor people are "suckling at The Government teat". That's not true. @lynlam did you even read the article in the OP? No where did it say anything about the author taking government assistance. But it did say the author had 2 jobs. A lot of people are working two jobs to make ends meet that are not taking government assistance. What some people, like @lynlam, don't understand is the shit is about to hit the fan. "Gentrification" I think everyone will agree one of the most expensive places to live if not the most expensive place to live is The San Francisco Bay Area. Housing prices are very high. One of my ex co-workers got divorced last year. Her and her husband had a 2 bedroom 1 bath 100 year old house in SF they needed to sell as part of the divorce settlement. It sold in 7 days, multiple offers for $799,000. It was a cute house but nothing much was done to up-date the inside. It had a nice yard with an ok view. Rents start at $2,000 a month and go why up. SF is a rent controlled city but landlords have found whys to evict long term tenants so they can charge the way higher rents. Neighborhood after neighborhood is being gentrified forcing long term residents to leave SF. But the problem is the counties around SF are also being hit with high housing costs. Some will argue that homeowners and landlords have the right to get as much money as they can from their investment whether it's selling their house or renting apartments. Problem is has anyone given a thought to the people who are being displaced because of gentrification? Contrary to what @lynlam wants one to believe these folks are not sitting around "suckling on The Government Teat". They perform a necessary function to make the SF area a desirable place to live for folks that can afford to pay $799,000 for a 2 bed/1bath 100 year old house. Or for the tourists that flock to the Bay Area every year. These folks provide the services that people expect. Whether it's in shops, restaurants & bars, at the hotels. Getting your cars fixed or hiring a "handy man". Not all these jobs are union jobs. A lot are at minimum wage or just above. A thread was started I think yesterday because someone was not happy with a store because they took away a Customer Service Kiosk and she had to wait in a long line. Who knows why this store removed the customer service kiosk but imagine if the reason was because the store couldn't get enough people to work for them because what they are willing to pay these folks is not enough to pay the rent or mortgage? Apply that to restaurants etc. One has to work an awful lot of minimum wage or just above minimum wage hours to pay $2,000-3,000+ a month rent. And food and utilities and transportation. We have had a couple of debates on this board about raising the minimum age to $15 and many are against it because they feel they will have to pay more for these services or products. Maybe but at least one would have the option to decide IF they wanted to pay more for services and products instead of not having the services or products available. This is not just happening in the SF Bay Area but spreading to other areas of the country. My take away from this is as hard as it was for the author of the article its already a lot harder for folks now and will get even harder. There is always going to be minimum wage jobs and one can no longer assume that folks can work their way out of these jobs. The type of jobs in this country are changing due to technology and global markets. So @lynlam quit insulting "poor" people because nothing is as black and white as you try and make it. And if anyone should work harder it's you in understanding the complexity of this country we live in.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 13, 2015 19:14:18 GMT
I agree that gentrification is causing housing prices to go up, but are you saying gentrification is a bad thing?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 19:44:21 GMT
I agree that gentrification is causing housing prices to go up, but are you saying gentrification is a bad thing? You tell me. An investment firm bought an apartment building in Healdsburg, CA. First thing they did was evict all the tenants, who were paying a little under $1,000 a month rent, with the plan of renovating the units so they can then charge upwards to $3,000 a month in rent. The question facing these tenants now is where are they going to find a place to live paying close to the rent they were paying in an extremely tight expensive rental market. There are consequences, good and bad, associated with gentrification. And unless one finds a way to midigate the bad consequences associated with gentification then the ones hardest hit by these changes can least afford them. So how is that good? Again keeping in mind the roll these minimum wage job earners (have nots) play in making sure the haves have what they expect in services and products. Like not standing in a long line when they want to purchase something in a store.
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Post by Kelpea on Jul 13, 2015 19:47:14 GMT
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bethany102399
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Oct 11, 2014 3:17:29 GMT
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Post by bethany102399 on Jul 13, 2015 21:07:11 GMT
That's why I looked it up at my library, but just can't bring myself to read it. We've been one step away from total ruin more than once, and by the grace of God and both sets of parents we didn't fall too deep in the hole.
My mom kept making the comment this weekend, well you made choices that have kept you out of a house (we're looking to purchase our first home next spring). I wanted to snap back, which choice? The one where DH was unemployed for a full year in 2012, or the one where we spent close to 2,000 a MONTH on daycare?
It's only been in the last 2 years that I don't panic when something starts to go south with the car. I get irritated, as those are funds that could be spent elsewhere (like the bank toward the house) but man, it's nice to know those funds are actually there.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 13, 2015 22:00:59 GMT
Another good read in this same vein is Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America by Barbara Ehrenreich ^^^ I was going to recommend this very same book; it's from a few years ago, but very good, and an eye-opener about how difficult it can be to live on minimum wage, for a lot of the same reasons as stated in the article the OP linked. ETA: and I do think it's all related in some fashion: people want to buy low priced goods, employers pay low wages, part-time work, not having access to transportation, not always being able to live near to where you work, lack of access to healthy food, lack of space / time / skills to cook and/or store the healthy food even if you could buy it (food deserts), obesity, diabetes, health care costs, insurance or lack thereof, etc. etc. etc. It's all interconnected, and can't be 'fixed' with a simple answer to each individual issue if the other factors aren't addressed.
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kate
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Post by kate on Jul 13, 2015 23:07:00 GMT
Class Matters is also fascinating, chilling, and hard to put down. It's REALLY well-written, for those of you who have/had a hard time with the "Bootstrap" book (which I haven't started yet, but which caught some heat in Amazon reviews for blogger-style writing). Thank you, OP - this thread got me started on a self-education mission!
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Post by glitterowl on Jul 14, 2015 11:41:46 GMT
I'm mostly a lurker for any opinion related posts, but I've enjoyed this discussion. I like both sides that have been discussed. The only thing I have not heard mentioned or discussed is the shocker nine words that I often don't hear from folks that are lamenting how poor they are and how difficult it is to survive. "It was my own fault that I'd been towed". So....once you read that line....that poor decision compounded a lot of things the author complains about, right? The rest of the article was about how everything was unfair and difficult. So why was the vehicle towed? Other people follow rules, but you decided not to? Where was the sentiment...my poor decision caused this domino effect and did I learn from it? I never hear it. Just a lot of blame and what the person doesn't have and can't afford. How unfair life is for the poor.
If you read the article again, how many times do you read "I, me or my"? However, I was surprised to find the "I had" statement actually directed towards her responsibility. I was limited in funds while in college and made choices of eating mac & cheese 2 for 1.00 so I had the $20/week to use on something else....for many weeks at a time. If you pay attention to the details of people that always seem to have no money or "bad things happen all the time", there always seems to be poor decisions in there somewhere. When I have a conversation with someone lamenting about their problems and poverty, I feel badly and then the more I listen, the more details and decision making choices I start to question.
Example, a couple friends and I met at a bar one night during the week recently. The one gal that is always lamenting she is broke, explained her whole situation of poverty and no money situation that week and then proceeded to order a chocolate martini right after she said, "screw it, I'm ordering a chocolate martini, I've had a hard day". OK, fine. I order a bud light. Her bill is $9.00 and my beer is $3.00. Ummm...OK. I don't have money problems but immediately I thought...If she has money problems then why is she ordering a chocolate martini?? I have money and I'm not ordering a chocolate martini. I don't get it. Many times I do believe it comes down to choices. Many excuses. It's easy to blame. I get it, it's hard to do without and stay the course when others are spending money and live better. People want to be in that club and feel normal.
I'm all for a hand up...not a hand out.
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kate
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Post by kate on Jul 14, 2015 13:45:06 GMT
I think part of the difference is that we ALL make mistakes (or even on-purpose stupid decisions) sometimes. For the poor, that one bad decision can put them into a hole too deep to escape; for those who can financially absorb a mistake (or two or three), it becomes just another life lesson, and they go on their merry way.
My DH got a parking ticket recently - he paid for metered parking (we don't have individual meters here), put his receipt in the windshield, and went to work. Turns out he parked in a spot for commercial vehicles only. Bye-bye $95. It was a mistake, not a calculated risk. It happens. Thank God we can absorb it.
The chocolate martini question is one that interests me. I had a roommate who got laid off and was frantic. Shortly thereafter, she came home with a new shirt from a fancy boutique in town. It was a plain t-shirt, to my eyes barely distinguishable from Fruit of the Loom, and it had cost $50 - I was horrified. I think it came from a sense of hopelessness about the future, a carpe diem attitude: "Nothing's going to get better, so I may as well treat myself now while there's still usable credit on the card..." Of course, from my perspective, it looked like she was guaranteeing that nothing would get better by making stupid purchases. (I'm happy to say I was wrong - she got another job, and things went fine from there.)
I do think that the chocolate martinis (or overpriced t-shirts or other seemingly meaningless spending) can be a sign that the person really doesn't see a viable future. It can also be a sign of immaturity, an adolescent instant-gratification mentality - it must be hard to change someone's perspective out of either one of those places. It's so easy to see as a comfortable outsider.
This whole topic is fascinating to me.
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katybee
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Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Jul 14, 2015 14:21:37 GMT
Sorry lucyg I'm not going to give @lynlam a pass on her post. @lynlam needs to get out of that bubble she lives in and see the real world. First she is assuming that all poor people are "suckling at The Government teat". That's not true. @lynlam did you even read the article in the OP? No where did it say anything about the author taking government assistance. But it did say the author had 2 jobs. A lot of people are working two jobs to make ends meet that are not taking government assistance. What some people, like @lynlam, don't understand is the shit is about to hit the fan. "Gentrification" I think everyone will agree one of the most expensive places to live if not the most expensive place to live is The San Francisco Bay Area. Housing prices are very high. One of my ex co-workers got divorced last year. Her and her husband had a 2 bedroom 1 bath 100 year old house in SF they needed to sell as part of the divorce settlement. It sold in 7 days, multiple offers for $799,000. It was a cute house but nothing much was done to up-date the inside. It had a nice yard with an ok view. Rents start at $2,000 a month and go why up. SF is a rent controlled city but landlords have found whys to evict long term tenants so they can charge the way higher rents. Neighborhood after neighborhood is being gentrified forcing long term residents to leave SF. But the problem is the counties around SF are also being hit with high housing costs. Some will argue that homeowners and landlords have the right to get as much money as they can from their investment whether it's selling their house or renting apartments. Problem is has anyone given a thought to the people who are being displaced because of gentrification? Contrary to what @lynlam wants one to believe these folks are not sitting around "suckling on The Government Teat". They perform a necessary function to make the SF area a desirable place to live for folks that can afford to pay $799,000 for a 2 bed/1bath 100 year old house. Or for the tourists that flock to the Bay Area every year. These folks provide the services that people expect. Whether it's in shops, restaurants & bars, at the hotels. Getting your cars fixed or hiring a "handy man". Not all these jobs are union jobs. A lot are at minimum wage or just above. A thread was started I think yesterday because someone was not happy with a store because they took away a Customer Service Kiosk and she had to wait in a long line. Who knows why this store removed the customer service kiosk but imagine if the reason was because the store couldn't get enough people to work for them because what they are willing to pay these folks is not enough to pay the rent or mortgage? Apply that to restaurants etc. One has to work an awful lot of minimum wage or just above minimum wage hours to pay $2,000-3,000+ a month rent. And food and utilities and transportation. We have had a couple of debates on this board about raising the minimum age to $15 and many are against it because they feel they will have to pay more for these services or products. Maybe but at least one would have the option to decide IF they wanted to pay more for services and products instead of not having the services or products available. This is not just happening in the SF Bay Area but spreading to other areas of the country. My take away from this is as hard as it was for the author of the article its already a lot harder for folks now and will get even harder. There is always going to be minimum wage jobs and one can no longer assume that folks can work their way out of these jobs. The type of jobs in this country are changing due to technology and global markets. So @lynlam quit insulting "poor" people because nothing is as black and white as you try and make it. And if anyone should work harder it's you in understanding the complexity of this country we live in. It's not just minimum-wage service workers and laborers. I was very happy living in San Francisco, but could not afford to stay on my teacher salary. So I moved. Teachers, firefighters, police officers, nurses… They cannot afford to live in San Francisco either.
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Montannie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,486
Location: Big Sky Country
Jun 25, 2014 20:32:35 GMT
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Post by Montannie on Jul 14, 2015 14:24:12 GMT
Years ago I had an in-service training about working with the impoverished. It was a glimpse into the psychology of generational poverty, and the coping mechanisms that arise. I wish I could remember the name of the author who wrote the book I read.
Coming from a middle glass background, it was eyeopening to me. One thing I remember was a bit about how people of different wealth classes reacted to an unexpected cash windfall. The rich invested it; the middle class paid bills with it; and the impoverished shared with their family and spent it.
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Post by cyndijane on Jul 14, 2015 14:30:57 GMT
The chocolate martini question is one that interests me. I had a roommate who got laid off and was frantic. Shortly thereafter, she came home with a new shirt from a fancy boutique in town. It was a plain t-shirt, to my eyes barely distinguishable from Fruit of the Loom, and it had cost $50 - I was horrified. I think it came from a sense of hopelessness about the future, a carpe diem attitude: "Nothing's going to get better, so I may as well treat myself now while there's still usable credit on the card..." Of course, from my perspective, it looked like she was guaranteeing that nothing would get better by making stupid purchases. (I'm happy to say I was wrong - she got another job, and things went fine from there.) I do think that the chocolate martinis (or overpriced t-shirts or other seemingly meaningless spending) can be a sign that the person really doesn't see a viable future. It can also be a sign of immaturity, an adolescent instant-gratification mentality - it must be hard to change someone's perspective out of either one of those places. It's so easy to see as a comfortable outsider. This whole topic is fascinating to me. I completely agree with this. There are so many people who are in a position where *so many things* have to change for the better in order for them to truly be in a better position, I think it's easy for them to believe it will never really get any better. So why fight and struggle to make better choices when *this moment* may truly be as good as it gets- might as well enjoy it.
This really is a complex issue.
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pridemom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,843
Jul 12, 2014 21:58:10 GMT
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Post by pridemom on Jul 14, 2015 14:35:52 GMT
Years ago I had an in-service training about working with the impoverished. It was a glimpse into the psychology of generational poverty, and the coping mechanisms that arise. I wish I could remember the name of the author who wrote the book I read. Coming from a middle glass background, it was eyeopening to me. One thing I remember was a bit about how people of different wealth classes reacted to an unexpected cash windfall. The rich invested it; the middle class paid bills with it; and the impoverished shared with their family and spent it. Was it Ruby Payne?
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Montannie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,486
Location: Big Sky Country
Jun 25, 2014 20:32:35 GMT
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Post by Montannie on Jul 14, 2015 14:54:54 GMT
pridemom, yes! "A Framework for Understanding Poverty."
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 14, 2015 15:22:27 GMT
I agree that gentrification is causing housing prices to go up, but are you saying gentrification is a bad thing? You tell me. An investment firm bought an apartment building in Healdsburg, CA. First thing they did was evict all the tenants, who were paying a little under $1,000 a month rent, with the plan of renovating the units so they can then charge upwards to $3,000 a month in rent. The question facing these tenants now is where are they going to find a place to live paying close to the rent they were paying in an extremely tight expensive rental market. There are consequences, good and bad, associated with gentrification. And unless one finds a way to midigate the bad consequences associated with gentification then the ones hardest hit by these changes can least afford them. So how is that good? Again keeping in mind the roll these minimum wage job earners (have nots) play in making sure the haves have what they expect in services and products. Like not standing in a long line when they want to purchase something in a store. See, I don't have any problem with gentrification. The neighborhoods are usually crime-ridden, run down and derelict. The first city that comes to mind to me that needs this badly is Detroit. For me it comes down to was the apartment building in Healdsburg for sale? Was it run down? How much money was going to be needed to bring it up to code and refurbish the building. The company or in many cases individuals who purchase these derelict properties have to sink quite a bit of money into them, and deserve to see a return on their investment. In the end, these communities actually get better, crime rates go down, schools and services improve, parks and community gardens are planted, and this to me is a good thing. I also was seeing that a report by Columbia University in NYC gentrified neighborhoods found that these neighborhoods were less likely to see the original inhabitants move than were similar neighborhoods not undergoing gentrification. Something like 15% less likely. No one wants to live in a bad neighborhood. But they will continue to be bad unless new owners come in with the resources to purchase and fix them up. No one is going to do that, without deserving a return on that investment.
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