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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 15, 2015 14:37:37 GMT
I also wanted to comment on this bit: "If people who make minimum wage cannot work there because of housing prices, then the wages will naturally rise to fill the demand." ^^^ you mean the service-oriented jobs like the ones at the new Starbucks, Whole Foods, tea shops, yoga places, etc. that will open up, right? Don't most of those places charge-- minimum wage?? I can't see that sentence about wages 'naturally rising' to fill the demand ever coming true; if it did, then people who work for minimum-level wages everywhere wouldn't have trouble making a living AND being able to afford decent food and decent housing, and we know that's simply not true. (see the links to the books posted on the other thread- Nickeled and Dimed was one of them; I can't remember the other one.) I would encourage reading Scratch Beginnings as a rebuttal to Nickel and Dimed. link
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Post by apeacalledliz on Jul 15, 2015 16:05:13 GMT
I also wanted to comment on this bit: "If people who make minimum wage cannot work there because of housing prices, then the wages will naturally rise to fill the demand." ^^^ you mean the service-oriented jobs like the ones at the new Starbucks, Whole Foods, tea shops, yoga places, etc. that will open up, right? Don't most of those places charge-- minimum wage?? I can't see that sentence about wages 'naturally rising' to fill the demand ever coming true; if it did, then people who work for minimum-level wages everywhere wouldn't have trouble making a living AND being able to afford decent food and decent housing, and we know that's simply not true. (see the links to the books posted on the other thread- Nickeled and Dimed was one of them; I can't remember the other one.) I would encourage reading Scratch Beginnings as a rebuttal to Nickel and Dimed. linkI would encourage people to try and understand the mindset of people living in poverty. When the possibility that you can be more, do more with your life than survive has never been present in your life it's awfully hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and accomplish what this man did. When you have been told both with words and actions your entire life that you will never become "somebody" believing that you can is near impossible. This guy had the advantage of education, higher education, an upbringing that told him that anything was possible... that is HUGE.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 16, 2015 18:59:48 GMT
I would encourage reading Scratch Beginnings as a rebuttal to Nickel and Dimed. linkI would encourage people to try and understand the mindset of people living in poverty. When the possibility that you can be more, do more with your life than survive has never been present in your life it's awfully hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and accomplish what this man did. When you have been told both with words and actions your entire life that you will never become "somebody" believing that you can is near impossible. This guy had the advantage of education, higher education, an upbringing that told him that anything was possible... that is HUGE. I absolutely agree with you. There is something that definitely needs to be done to help change that mindset, to provide hope and instill opportunity to rise out of the current situation. From the snippets I've read of Nickel and Dimed, it's pretty pessimistic without a lot of real ideas for improvement, but I need to finally sit down and read the hole thing. If Scratch Beginnings isn't a fair assumption, then I would encourage reading Pursuit of Happyness. I think there is a balance between the two ideas that can be struck. I came out of poverty, my parents struggled immensely, but they also never gave up hope, and always encouraged us to strive for better than we grew up with. That doesn't happen for everyone. Everyone's situation is different, and there has to be a solution.
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Post by lisacharlotte on Jul 16, 2015 19:13:56 GMT
I grew up poor and my mom is still there. College wasn't an option, I joined the military. I can do without if I had to. My husband was always middle class and doesn't know if he could hack being poor. I always tell him that we'd find a way to survive even if we had to eat ramen. I do get that people struggle, but I believe the gov't and its "help" traps the poor in place. The saying about giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish is about as spot on as it gets. Handouts never pull anyone out of poverty.
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Post by not2peased on Jul 16, 2015 19:28:59 GMT
“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.” Ben Franklin
It absolutely is a complex problem, only made more complex by government largess and "help". Government traps people in poverty. There is no way around that fact, and it only gets worse with each and every new "helping hand" extended. We have spent two generations now, telling people that they won't be poor anymore if we just pass one more welfare program. Trillions of dollars later, we have more poor than ever, and are making more every single day. We have also been telling them that they SHOULDN'T work harder, because if they work harder, they will lose that government money, subsidies, programs, SNAP, WIC, child care credits, cell phones etc, and will probably end up with less money than they had when they worked fewer hours or a job that required no skill set. So why would many poor people choose to work harder, even though they WANT to, when doing so will cause them to harm their families when government money is withdrawn? It is fact, that in many states, welfare programs pay as much as a $15/hr job. Tax free. So why would someone bust their butt at a minimum wage job, to learn the skills needed to advance to better jobs, when advancing to those jobs would cost them so much money?? In short, You are ignoring, as bleeding hearts are wont to do, human nature. Human nature will always dictate that humans will take the "easy" way, even if it is not in their best interests in the long run. Once upon a time, it was shameful to be on government welfare, or even to have to ask for help from your church. Now it is almost a badge of honor. But we have eroded that very helpful notion of shame, because we decided that people shouldn't have their feelings hurt. We had to do away with actual food stamps, in favor of debit cards, so that people didn't feel shame in the grocery line. I am of the same opinion as Ben Franklin. Do not make it easy to stay poor. That is the cruelest form of "help" you can offer. And what of the people who aren't living on public assistance and are poor? What are we as a society doing for them, doing to help them? I was one of those people, we were one of those families, as little as 5 or 6 years ago. We lived paycheck to paycheck, a sick kid or god forbid a car repair was all it took to send us spiraling into a hole we didn't see anyway to dig ourselves out of. I had a panic attack everytime I slid my debit card at the grocery store, I left full grocery carts at the register because they wouldn't take my check this week, I hunted for bottles on the side of the road to get enough to buy milk. And when you are in that hole looking up at not even a pinpoint of light to give you hope you can overcome this, making bad decisions seem to be the only decisions you can make. Any tiny bit of extra money or hell windfall like your tax return is spent on fun new things to make the drudgery of your shitty rotten luck life seem a bit less shitty. Is that a bad decision? Yup. But it's totally understandable, when you haven't been out to eat in over a year and you're craving that delicious mexican restaurant you love and your kids all want the latest and greatest new toy that everyone else in their class has had since Christmas, and you all need new shoes and underwear, and well it would be nice for each kid to have a new outfit not one from Goodwill... you will probably pay off a few overdue bills(you always have overdue bills) and then that extra money is gone and you go back to paycheck to paycheck life wondering where the money for rent and food is going to come from. You could have saved that 1500.00 and used it to build a cushion but NO ONE tells you or shows you that there is a light the top of this hole and there is a way to NOT always be poor, you just assume that this is what life is, life is hard everyone says and you assume that is what they mean. You assume that you deserve to live like this, that regardless of the fact that you and your husband work opposite shifts so that someone is always home with the kids, that you never do end up buying that new underwear and use that money to put a little food in the freezer, that you have never been on a vacation, you don't leach off the government you are doing what you are supposed to do that somehow this is what you deserve. So you spend extra when you get it because you don't know when you might get extra again, and you feel guilty the whole time you're doing it. Being poor is expensive, there are fees for everything you need to do, need a car loan to buy that pos beater...18% interest, don't have a checking account because your credit is such shit you have to pay to cash your check every week, get behind on your bills because you don't actually make enough between your two jobs to actually afford to have heat, a roof over your head and food...get pulled over and fined because you couldn't afford to get your car registered on time, or you couldn't register your car because you need an inspection and it needs a thousand dollars worth of work to pass, rent is more expensive because you are high risk. Some people tell you to move so you don't have to drive, but where do you get the money to move? How do you move when you literally can't buy milk? And how do you get an apartment when you have an eviction on your record, you were lucky to find the hovel of a place you are in. I would love to see people like that helped, shown how to make it. We finally were able to pull ourselves out of that horrible place by shear luck... literally had a year or so where nothing went wrong and we were able to get ahead of things and that allowed us to come out of survival mode and make a plan and that lead to more success, and husband got a raise and OT was reinstated and my business took off and things are looking up. But wouldn't it be grand if there was a way to reach those people living in that pit of poverty, working their butts off to get ahead but never moving forward to help them, to show them that baby steps forward really will get you there, that your past bad decisions do not have to define you. For those reasons, for those people(and there are lots of the working poor out there) I am unwilling to defund social nets, I am unwilling to judge the Mom in line at the grocery store using her SNAP card, I am unwilling to call poor people lazy or blame them for their place in life unless I am also willing to stand up and help show them how to make it better. great post-apeacalledliz-you nailed the mentality and the feeling of complete and utter hopelessness. unless you have been there-you can't possibly understanding. most poor people are NOT on assistance and the grinding ugliness, fear and despair can be so overwhelming and horrible. I too, have been there and I don't judge and I believe in a safety net as well.
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Post by HelenaJole on Jul 16, 2015 20:21:56 GMT
Ack! We had a car stolen once--had to pay $429 to get it back. My husband was soooo ticked off about that.
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mallie
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Post by mallie on Jul 16, 2015 20:40:41 GMT
Ack! We had a car stolen once--had to pay $429 to get it back. My husband was soooo ticked off about that. Now imagine that $429 was more than you made in a week. (Because $429 is well above a full time paycheck at minimum wage.) And you can't get to work without that car because you live in my town with no public transportation. You have no savings because you live paycheck to paycheck. What do you do?
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 16, 2015 20:43:54 GMT
Ack! We had a car stolen once--had to pay $429 to get it back. My husband was soooo ticked off about that. Now imagine that $429 was more than you made in a week. (Because $429 is well above a full time paycheck at minimum wage.) And you can't get to work without that car because you live in my town with no public transportation. You have no savings because you live paycheck to paycheck. What do you do? That's where I feel our focus and assistance should be on in terms of the safety nets. Bridging that gap. Unless someone is disabled they should be required to work while on assistance, but the way it is structured now, it actually encourages lack of working in order to maintain it, and for large families, that assistance is more than a minimum wage job. That's where we need to fix the system.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 16, 2015 22:32:54 GMT
I think you missed (or skipped over) the part where she said that amount of money (to get the car back) was more than a week's worth of minimum wage, jonda. There are plenty of people out there who DO work but they STILL don't make enough money to live on, let alone to get ahead on. In addition, there are tons of people out there who are NOT on assistance but one emergency such as this one would be enough to set them back tremendously.
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Post by marykate on Jul 16, 2015 22:49:14 GMT
So many people are one catastrophe away from poverty. I know people will come on and say that most people in poverty are living outside their means, but in reality they can't be, because they don't have credit. They have to pay cash for everything. When the cash runs out, they have nothing until the next paycheck. Exactly. Lack of credit is a killer in today's economy. Makes it really, really expensive to be poor (everything costs more if you don't have anyone/anything to front you or loan you). Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America is really good on this. Thanks for posting this, LavenderLayoutLady. On my must-read list. One of my fav. Dorothy Day quotes: “The Gospel takes away our right, forever, to discriminate between the deserving and the undeserving poor.”
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Jul 16, 2015 22:53:04 GMT
I by no means have the answer but I will agree that this is a cultural thing. The idea of delayed gratification is absolutely foreign to some people and some just don't have the desire to do what it takes to get ahead.
All of my in-laws are considered poor. Their kids are not, thankfully. While the kids of course made bad monetary choices, they learned from their mistakes and did what it took to save and move ahead. My MIL definitely trained her children to accept poverty as a given.
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Jul 16, 2015 22:57:41 GMT
I will add that the most telling statement I heard from students was when I was teaching about fertility rates. One girl stated that it was stupid to wait until you were 30 to have your first kid. You should be preparing for grandkids around that time. That it made more sense to get pregnant as a teen because you got more benefits, are hotter, and have more energy. She was backed up by several students in the class.
Waiting to have kids until you can fully take care of the family is the best way to prevent getting caught in a spiral of poverty.
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gsquaredmom
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Post by gsquaredmom on Jul 16, 2015 22:58:23 GMT
People have made some great points, but some have made unfair assumptions about the working poor. Don't assume all poor people want to get a handout.
There are many working poor, people who work 70 or more hours a week and still cannot support their families adequately. Some of them are day laborers who do not even make an hourly minimum wage. They proudly make too much for government assistance, but too little to access medical care, adequate housing, healthy food, etc.
I know someone who raises money in Indiana to support a program similar to Doctors Without Borders. In Indiana, not Haiti or Honduras.
She has talked with the working poor. It is incredible how hard some work and are too proud to take assistance. They often insist on donating to the program because they will not take even a medical handout. Amazing.
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Jul 16, 2015 23:01:17 GMT
Excellent point.
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katybee
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Post by katybee on Jul 16, 2015 23:02:38 GMT
I am a "bleeding heart" liberal, for sure! But I truly believe that people on welfare should have to work. In most cases, however, childcare will also have to be provided, which will probably make more expensive to taxpayers in the long run.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 23:03:57 GMT
This book could be describing a co-worker of mine. She is 41 and lives with her mother and brother. Their life is one bad thing after another happening to them. It will look like they are finally going to get a break and bang something else happens. I am so thankful for the opportunities I have had in my life. Both sets of my grandparents were very poor. The fact that they lived on farms and could raise most of their food helped them to dig their families out of poverty. Things are so different now and really difficult if you live in a city. Thanks for sharing this article. Donna: Your friend sounds like me!!! Backstory: I was married to a lawyer and we lived a dream-life. His practice was mostly real estate, so it got rough towards the end. We divorced and I found out that the lush life we were living was all on credit, mostly at MY expense!!!!!!!!!!! I cut ties with him, moved on and vowed to live within my means. No more limos, endless wardrobes, eating out, shopping, etc........... This was a new life! I learned how everything worked (healthcare when you're indigent, medicare, etc...), and I learned a LOT. This is stuff that no one is willing to share! I fought hard to get medical care. I began to rebuild my credit slowly, but the ex still managed to mess that up, somehow involving ME in a past Federal tax lien that my name shouldn't have even been on. So, my credit is still messed up. I continue to check my FICO score and check my credit report b/c I still don't trust him. Somehow he has eluded the Feds and "can't be found" to pay his share of this tax lien, but they come to me and attach my disability income!!!!!!!!!! It's terrible! Now I found out that he's going on a vacation. Nice! I haven't even had a honeymoon with current DH, but the ex is livin' the life on my dime (and on his son's too--he used his info to mess up his credit too!). When you're living "modestly" it's very hard to get out of that rut. One thing will upset the balance and you're back to square 1. We need a new washing machine (needed it for months) but it's not in the budget. I keep having hope that I'll get ahead. I'm trying my best! But getting ahead, for indigent people, is almost a moot point, because we're almost forced to stay this way. We pay more for everything b/c we don't have the cash, can't get a great deal, etc....... Again, it's very hard to get out of the rut, but I pray and I have the confidence to think that it'll change. Eager to read this book (if it's free!). ETA: a peacalledliz: You nailed it!!! I've lived on both sides of the coin. When I was young, the ex and I opened our own law office and we were "yuppies" living very well. Now I'm on the other side of the coin. One thing goes wrong and we could be homeless, yet I'm hopeful that things will change, I'm always trying to make them change/better, and I have a strong belief in God. Pay here is terrible (my 2 adult kids moved in with us from NY to FL), finding a job here is nearly impossible, there's no public transportation where we are (going in the direction of where most jobs are--towards Tampa), and there's basically NO gov't aid. Foodstamps pays almost nothing here. It's terrible and tough, but I keep vowing to get out of this hole. Even moving to a more decent town costs too much $$ (movers $1000/security+2 mos rent $4000). It's tough..... but we're doing the best we could and I try to focus on how blessed we are.
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Post by marykate on Jul 17, 2015 0:12:54 GMT
I am a "bleeding heart" liberal, for sure! But I truly believe that people on welfare should have to work. In most cases, however, childcare will also have to be provided, which will probably make more expensive to taxpayers in the long run. I guess I want to query the notion that staying home to look after children is not "work." I mean, I dunno, having done the care of an infant/toddler/small child thing (for no pay, so it didn't count as "work"), it sure seemed like a lot of "work" to me, and much more demanding (o dear God! 24/7, and no rest, no respite in sight) than many a paid position of employment I have enjoyed. Well, it's a funny old world, isn't it? And it's a funny thing about childcare and "work." I guess motherhood and childcare is feminism's final frontier, and we haven't even begun to breach the borders: we are still groping around in the dark in our attempts to solve this riddle. Woman with children staying home to look after her own kids? What she does is not "work" (and in the popular imagination, she is perhaps sitting around on a comfy settee, watching soaps and eating bon bons). Woman with children entering the official economy of the paid workforce? She will have to find someone else (a nanny, a babysitter, a childcare center) to look after her children in exchange for cash, at which point the childcare now becomes a species of "work." It's not the actual childcare duties that define whether or not this activity is defined as "work;" it's the monetary exchange, the reduction of all activities to the relentless logic of the cash nexus. I'm all for a mother's allowance that would allow low-income mothers to stay home and do the, yes, "work," of looking after their own children. I honestly don't see how a mother working as a cashier at WalMart, while her kids are in the hands of God knows who, advances the cause of social justice, of economic development, or of utilitarian best-use-of-resources principles. That said, long-term social assistance is obviously a soul-crushing dead end which saps the life out of any household or community. Can we at least acknowledge, though, women's/mother's (unpaid and unsung) contributions to the officially recorded economy, and maybe try to imagine some social-welfare policies that are more women- and child-friendly?
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Jul 17, 2015 0:18:11 GMT
I believe being a SAHM should be considered a luxury. If you want to work your way out of poverty, you have to let go of that idea that you need to be the one and only caregiver for your child. I don't believe for a second that society needs to supplement a family that has made that choice.
I was a SAHM for years. I believe it would be the best for my family. Not necessarily society. For us. We waited for years to have our children until we could afford that option.
I've held numerous jobs. There is no way that being a SAHM came close to being "work" compared to being employed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 0:27:02 GMT
I believe being a SAHM should be considered a luxury. If you want to work your way out of poverty, you have to let go of that idea that you need to be the one and only caregiver for your child. I don't believe for a second that society needs to supplement a family that has made that choice. I was a SAHM for years. I believe it would be the best for my family. Not necessarily society. For us. We waited for years to have our children until we could afford that option. I've held numerous jobs. There is no way that being a SAHM came close to being "work" compared to being employed. How is it considered a "luxury" when you have to PAY for childcare? Your job has to pay more than a childcare provider, unless you are graced to have family care for your child/ren for no pay.
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Jul 17, 2015 0:32:38 GMT
Because most people I know made more money than their daycare costs. So by giving up that added income, they were decreasing their household money.
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Post by renateb on Jul 17, 2015 0:35:06 GMT
I believe being a SAHM should be considered a luxury. If you want to work your way out of poverty, you have to let go of that idea that you need to be the one and only caregiver for your child. I don't believe for a second that society needs to supplement a family that has made that choice. I was a SAHM for years. I believe it would be the best for my family. Not necessarily society. For us. We waited for years to have our children until we could afford that option. I've held numerous jobs. There is no way that being a SAHM came close to being "work" compared to being employed. I was full time downtown Chicago for about 15 years before deciding to have kids and be a SAHM. The "work" is different. But I have not had to work full time AND do the parent/home responsibilities after working full time. I do agree that being a SAHM is a luxury. It is a luxury that was important to DH and me so we PLANNED for it. We could not have afforded it if we had children right after (or before) getting married. We also forgo-ed other luxuries like a new car, vacation, eating out and forget upgrading to a larger house. The kids weren't enrolled in programs that were remotely expensive. We did free story time at the library, went to the parks, searched out free events at the local park districts, joined mommy and me groups. The most extravagant spending was joining the local pool where I taught them to swim since the swim lessons were too expensive (the cost of the lessons was close to the cost of the membership for the season). There are many families I know where the parents work opposite shifts to make ends meet so they don't need to pay for child care.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 0:36:58 GMT
For us, being a SAHM was a sacrifice, not a luxury.
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Post by renateb on Jul 17, 2015 0:37:26 GMT
I believe being a SAHM should be considered a luxury. If you want to work your way out of poverty, you have to let go of that idea that you need to be the one and only caregiver for your child. I don't believe for a second that society needs to supplement a family that has made that choice. I was a SAHM for years. I believe it would be the best for my family. Not necessarily society. For us. We waited for years to have our children until we could afford that option. I've held numerous jobs. There is no way that being a SAHM came close to being "work" compared to being employed. How is it considered a "luxury" when you have to PAY for childcare? Your job has to pay more than a childcare provider, unless you are graced to have family care for your child/ren for no pay. How about BEING a childcare provider in your home for 2 or 3 children. Instead of complaining about the cost of childcare, be the one charging for the childcare. There are ways, people just have to be open to explore options.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 0:42:59 GMT
How is it considered a "luxury" when you have to PAY for childcare? Your job has to pay more than a childcare provider, unless you are graced to have family care for your child/ren for no pay. How about BEING a childcare provider in your home for 2 or 3 children. Instead of complaining about the cost of childcare, be the one charging for the childcare. There are ways, people just have to be open to explore options. When I had my children, I don't think I ever would have trusted a childcare provider to watch other children along with my child. My ex and I decided that I'd stay home and rear our own children. I worked at night and whenever I could, but mostly I raised my children. We went without a lot, but I don't consider that time to be a luxury, at all!! It was more of a priority.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 0:43:53 GMT
I am a "bleeding heart" liberal, for sure! But I truly believe that people on welfare should have to work. In most cases, however, childcare will also have to be provided, which will probably make more expensive to taxpayers in the long run. I guess I want to query the notion that staying home to look after children is not "work." I mean, I dunno, having done the care of an infant/toddler/small child thing (for no pay, so it didn't count as "work"), it sure seemed like a lot of "work" to me, and much more demanding (o dear God! 24/7, and no rest, no respite in sight) than many a paid position of employment I have enjoyed. Well, it's a funny old world, isn't it? And it's a funny thing about childcare and "work." I guess motherhood and childcare is feminism's final frontier, and we haven't even begun to breach the borders: we are still groping around in the dark in our attempts to solve this riddle. Woman with children staying home to look after her own kids? What she does is not "work" (and in the popular imagination, she is perhaps sitting around on a comfy settee, watching soaps and eating bon bons). Woman with children entering the official economy of the paid workforce? She will have to find someone else (a nanny, a babysitter, a childcare center) to look after her children in exchange for cash, at which point the childcare now becomes a species of "work." It's not the actual childcare duties that define whether or not this activity is defined as "work;" it's the monetary exchange, the reduction of all activities to the relentless logic of the cash nexus. I'm all for a mother's allowance that would allow low-income mothers to stay home and do the, yes, "work," of looking after their own children. I honestly don't see how a mother working as a cashier at WalMart, while her kids are in the hands of God knows who, advances the cause of social justice, of economic development, or of utilitarian best-use-of-resources principles.
That said, long-term social assistance is obviously a soul-crushing dead end which saps the life out of any household or community. Can we at least acknowledge, though, women's/mother's (unpaid and unsung) contributions to the officially recorded economy, and maybe try to imagine some social-welfare policies that are more women- and child-friendly? That mother may have to work the night shift...so her partner, or perhaps even a member of her family can be home with her children. Ideal? Of course not...but there are other ways to get around paying for child care while you're out working.
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katybee
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Post by katybee on Jul 17, 2015 0:45:41 GMT
I am a "bleeding heart" liberal, for sure! But I truly believe that people on welfare should have to work. In most cases, however, childcare will also have to be provided, which will probably make more expensive to taxpayers in the long run. I guess I want to query the notion that staying home to look after children is not "work." I mean, I dunno, having done the care of an infant/toddler/small child thing (for no pay, so it didn't count as "work"), it sure seemed like a lot of "work" to me, and much more demanding (o dear God! 24/7, and no rest, no respite in sight) than many a paid position of employment I have enjoyed. Well, it's a funny old world, isn't it? And it's a funny thing about childcare and "work." I guess motherhood and childcare is feminism's final frontier, and we haven't even begun to breach the borders: we are still groping around in the dark in our attempts to solve this riddle. Woman with children staying home to look after her own kids? What she does is not "work" (and in the popular imagination, she is perhaps sitting around on a comfy settee, watching soaps and eating bon bons). Woman with children entering the official economy of the paid workforce? She will have to find someone else (a nanny, a babysitter, a childcare center) to look after her children in exchange for cash, at which point the childcare now becomes a species of "work." It's not the actual childcare duties that define whether or not this activity is defined as "work;" it's the monetary exchange, the reduction of all activities to the relentless logic of the cash nexus. I'm all for a mother's allowance that would allow low-income mothers to stay home and do the, yes, "work," of looking after their own children. I honestly don't see how a mother working as a cashier at WalMart, while her kids are in the hands of God knows who, advances the cause of social justice, of economic development, or of utilitarian best-use-of-resources principles. That said, long-term social assistance is obviously a soul-crushing dead end which saps the life out of any household or community. Can we at least acknowledge, though, women's/mother's (unpaid and unsung) contributions to the officially recorded economy, and maybe try to imagine some social-welfare policies that are more women- and child-friendly? [ I see some validity in your post. However, how many working class and middle income mothers do you know that cannot afford to stay at home? How can we justify spending taxpayer dollars on lower income families when we're not willing to do the same for middle income families? And what about if those children are in school for most of the day? Should we still not require those mothers to work a job outside of the home? I guess I'm not as much of a socialist as I thought I was…
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Post by renateb on Jul 17, 2015 0:49:30 GMT
How about BEING a childcare provider in your home for 2 or 3 children. Instead of complaining about the cost of childcare, be the one charging for the childcare. There are ways, people just have to be open to explore options. When I had my children, I don't think I ever would have trusted a childcare provider to watch other children along with my child. My ex and I decided that I'd stay home and rear our own children. I worked at night and whenever I could, but mostly I raised my children. We went without a lot, but I don't consider that time to be a luxury, at all!! It was more of a priority. So then you did explore options and did what worked for your family. From your post it sounded like you couldn't work because you didn't make as much as the childcare cost and I was suggesting their are other options.
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Deleted
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May 17, 2024 21:42:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 0:53:54 GMT
When I had my children, I don't think I ever would have trusted a childcare provider to watch other children along with my child. My ex and I decided that I'd stay home and rear our own children. I worked at night and whenever I could, but mostly I raised my children. We went without a lot, but I don't consider that time to be a luxury, at all!! It was more of a priority. So then you did explore options and did what worked for your family. From your post it sounded like you couldn't work because you didn't make as much as the childcare cost and I was suggesting their are other options. Nope, not true. As a paralegal, I was earning well over $50,000/year during the time of my childrens' births. I could have afforded childcare, but it was more important for me to stay home and rear them, 24/7; not someone else. That did mean a lower combined salary and less "things" but it was more important to us both.
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Post by renateb on Jul 17, 2015 1:03:42 GMT
So then you did explore options and did what worked for your family. From your post it sounded like you couldn't work because you didn't make as much as the childcare cost and I was suggesting their are other options. Nope, not true. As a paralegal, I was earning well over $50,000/year during the time of my childrens' births. I could have afforded childcare, but it was more important for me to stay home and rear them, 24/7; not someone else. That did mean a lower combined salary and less "things" but it was more important to us both. That pretty much mirrors the choice dh and I made almost 20 years ago. At that time I was making the same as DH. Yep, we had to give up a lot but it was so worth it. The stuff we had to give up was just that "stuff". (I was worked legal for 15 years before having children, loved it)
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May 17, 2024 21:42:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 1:11:53 GMT
renateb: Cool! Sounds very familiar!!! I loved it too, but years after my kids grew up, I didn't have the mindset to go back into it. Instead, I got into weightloss/nutrition counseling (because I ballooned up to a size 20 and then got down to a size 2!!). I loved it, but it was more of social work. It payed nearly nothing (what a shame!!). I just got offered a Regional Manager job in NY in weightloss (out of the blue--they contacted me & asked if I was still within my weightloss range!) but it only pays $38,000. I asked them if that was part time, but they said it's fulltime!!! How insulting. I left the legal field making $90,000! I'm out of the workforce anyway, being disabled now. I'd never regret staying home with my children. Sounds like you and your hubby made the same decision.
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