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Post by renateb on Jul 17, 2015 1:34:09 GMT
renateb: Cool! Sounds very familiar!!! I loved it too, but years after my kids grew up, I didn't have the mindset to go back into it. Instead, I got into weightloss/nutrition counseling (because I ballooned up to a size 20 and then got down to a size 2!!). I loved it, but it was more of social work. It payed nearly nothing (what a shame!!). I just got offered a Regional Manager job in NY in weightloss (out of the blue--they contacted me & asked if I was still within my weightloss range!) but it only pays $38,000. I asked them if that was part time, but they said it's fulltime!!! How insulting. I left the legal field making $90,000! I'm out of the workforce anyway, being disabled now. I'd never regret staying home with my children. Sounds like you and your hubby made the same decision. Of all things, I work at a school with preschool and kindergartners. Started when youngest was 3 and he came with me for free (yep, got paid to watch my own child). At the time I worked 12 hours a week teaching 2-3 year olds. That job was a way for me to get out of the house and be around other people. A reason to get showered and dressed before 4pm. It gave me a little spending money so I could buy DH a birthday and Christmas gift without feeling like I was spending "his" money to get his gift. (He never made me fee that way, just after always being a major contributor to the family finances it was a tough mental transition.) I am still there but now I'm the administrative assistant. I have the summers off with the kids and have all school holidays off. I often tell people I am a SAHM because I am home when the kids are. They are older now. Oldest is off to college this year, youngest has another 2 years. They don't need me at home so much anymore (unless they want the van). At this point DH and I figure we've made it this far why chance it the last few years. The kids never know when I will or won't be home so no parties here!Congrats on getting in shape and making a career of it! Yeah, I gained a lot of weight too. Just took most of it off but definitely not a size 2, but maybe a goal of 6 would be more realistic of me. Still working on it.
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Post by marykate on Jul 17, 2015 1:38:25 GMT
I believe being a SAHM should be considered a luxury. If you want to work your way out of poverty, you have to let go of that idea that you need to be the one and only caregiver for your child. I don't believe for a second that society needs to supplement a family that has made that choice. Has it really come to this? The most basic relationship in the world (that of mother-and-child) is now deemed a "luxury"? The decline and fall of western civilization continues apace. Know what I consider a "luxury"? Caviar on toast. A bespoke yacht. Chanel lipstick (a small luxury, but a luxury all the same). A Prada handbag. My mother at home with me when I was three/four years old? Sorry, nope, not a luxury. We had no money: on Friday nights, we went to the Dairy Queen, and my sisters and I knew that we couldn't afford a chocolate-dipped cone, and we were happy enough to eat a plain. That was just life, and we did not feel deprived, we inhabited a rich and multi-layered domain. Our mother's care of us was basic, fundamental, superior in quality, and absolutely not a luxury. Also: the goal of substandard care for the children of the economically marginalized is just really, really stupid. Unless you're explicitly and consciously seeking to create a conduit to the prison-industrial complex, of course. Why not treat human beings as, well, human beings? Will cost you less money in the long run, and makes for more pleasant, less violent and dysfunctional, communities in the shorter term. In any case, every mother in the world should vehemently challenge the idea that her work as a mother is a mere "luxury," a trifling little "extra" that is not fundamentally required, a Chanel lipstick (well, those colours are the best, admittedly), a Prada handbag. I fear American feminism has taken a wrong turn, btw. I'm all about valuing the unpaid and unsung work of American mothers.
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Post by gryroagain on Jul 17, 2015 1:48:01 GMT
Beautifully put marykate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 2:21:57 GMT
renateb: Cool! Sounds very familiar!!! I loved it too, but years after my kids grew up, I didn't have the mindset to go back into it. Instead, I got into weightloss/nutrition counseling (because I ballooned up to a size 20 and then got down to a size 2!!). I loved it, but it was more of social work. It payed nearly nothing (what a shame!!). I just got offered a Regional Manager job in NY in weightloss (out of the blue--they contacted me & asked if I was still within my weightloss range!) but it only pays $38,000. I asked them if that was part time, but they said it's fulltime!!! How insulting. I left the legal field making $90,000! I'm out of the workforce anyway, being disabled now. I'd never regret staying home with my children. Sounds like you and your hubby made the same decision. Of all things, I work at a school with preschool and kindergartners. Started when youngest was 3 and he came with me for free (yep, got paid to watch my own child). At the time I worked 12 hours a week teaching 2-3 year olds. That job was a way for me to get out of the house and be around other people. A reason to get showered and dressed before 4pm. It gave me a little spending money so I could buy DH a birthday and Christmas gift without feeling like I was spending "his" money to get his gift. (He never made me fee that way, just after always being a major contributor to the family finances it was a tough mental transition.) I am still there but now I'm the administrative assistant. I have the summers off with the kids and have all school holidays off. I often tell people I am a SAHM because I am home when the kids are. They are older now. Oldest is off to college this year, youngest has another 2 years. They don't need me at home so much anymore (unless they want the van). At this point DH and I figure we've made it this far why chance it the last few years. The kids never know when I will or won't be home so no parties here!Congrats on getting in shape and making a career of it! Yeah, I gained a lot of weight too. Just took most of it off but definitely not a size 2, but maybe a goal of 6 would be more realistic of me. Still working on it. Size 2 (really 0) was my goal, but I'm more of a 4-6. I vary, but it's pretty cool to stay within that range since 2002!! Anyway, I also am into childcare (I love it), just helping friends watch their kids. Because of my disability, I can't commit to work and never know how I'll feel. It's cool to have had a few careers. I wish you the best. P.S.: The weightloss/goals will come when you just let it all go and don't dwell on it. Everything for the past 13 years has come naturally with a balance. It'll happen for you!
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Post by renateb on Jul 17, 2015 3:02:54 GMT
Luxury Priority Privilege Blessing Sacrifice
Use whatever word you want to describe being a SAHM. It is a choice each family individually makes. It is a choice. Many considerations need to go into the choice, including what changes in lifestyle need to be made and if it is financially feasible.
No mother's work, if she is a SAHM or work's outside the home, "is a mere 'luxury,' a trifling little 'extra' that is not fundamentally required".
The OP is about poverty. If a family is financially struggling, then the choice of not working is not going to help them get out of their financial struggle. Working opposite shifts, doing in home day care, or swapping babysitting with a friend, neighbor or family member would probably be a better option. It is not easy, but it can and has been done.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 17, 2015 3:48:48 GMT
I am confused by how a single mother or even a two-parent family is supposed to make enough money on part-time or even full-time minimum wages to pay for child care-- I worked with a lot of people who did the math and decided it was more economically viable for one of them to stay home before their child(ren) were school aged. And these were professional people, not minimum or low-wage earners.
How can any of you say that situation is a luxury? In that case, paying for child-care is the luxury for some people.
And it's all well and good to say that the couple should [have to] work opposite shifts, or whatever, to make it work, but what about a single-parent household where the parent doesn't have a family nearby as a safety net?
eta: I just realized that what I wrote doesn't necessarily make sense; I was thinking about two different things at the same time. 1) minimum wage jobs won't help you pay for child care, depending on the costs of child care, and 2) single-parent households can't do the 'opposite shift' work schedule to help their childcare situation.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 17, 2015 5:01:34 GMT
I think you missed (or skipped over) the part where she said that amount of money (to get the car back) was more than a week's worth of minimum wage, jonda. There are plenty of people out there who DO work but they STILL don't make enough money to live on, let alone to get ahead on. In addition, there are tons of people out there who are NOT on assistance but one emergency such as this one would be enough to set them back tremendously. Maybe I didn't explain it well, but you and I were actually saying the same thing. Those are the people for who. We need to bridge the gap. Those minimum wage workers who still don't make enough to live on. Unfortunately many of those people don't qualify for assistance or actually would make more in assistance by not working. Our system is broken, we should be encouraging smaller families, and assisting those who are working, but need a little more to make ends meet.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 6:08:06 GMT
I think you missed (or skipped over) the part where she said that amount of money (to get the car back) was more than a week's worth of minimum wage, jonda. There are plenty of people out there who DO work but they STILL don't make enough money to live on, let alone to get ahead on. In addition, there are tons of people out there who are NOT on assistance but one emergency such as this one would be enough to set them back tremendously. Maybe I didn't explain it well, but you and I were actually saying the same thing. Those are the people for who. We need to bridge the gap. Those minimum wage workers who still don't make enough to live on. Unfortunately many of those people don't qualify for assistance or actually would make more in assistance by not working. Our system is broken, we should be encouraging smaller families, and assisting those who are working, but need a little more to make ends meet. Encouraging smaller families has a sort of draconian ring to it. Problem is too many people feel if one is poor they are automatically taking government assistance. Or these folks choose to be poor. And as such they are lazy people who don't want to work. There are some who just down right insult the poor. How many people said the only reason people voted for President Obama brcause he encourages people to take public assistance. Or the famous 47%. I'm sure there are some that game the system but the same can be said about some at the other end of the economic spectrum. But one shouldn't penalize all for the actions of a few. What at we need to do is find a way to break the cycle of poverty for the ones that don't take government assistance as well as the ones who are on government assistance. I think one important component to break this cycle is a good education for all. I think the President's idea of 2 years free community college for those who want it is actually a good idea.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 17, 2015 6:29:14 GMT
Maybe I didn't explain it well, but you and I were actually saying the same thing. Those are the people for who. We need to bridge the gap. Those minimum wage workers who still don't make enough to live on. Unfortunately many of those people don't qualify for assistance or actually would make more in assistance by not working. Our system is broken, we should be encouraging smaller families, and assisting those who are working, but need a little more to make ends meet. Encouraging smaller families has a sort of draconian ring to it. Problem is too many people feel if one is poor they are automatically taking government assistance. Or these folks choose to be poor. And as such they are lazy people who don't want to work. There are some who just down right insult the poor. How many people said the only reason people voted for President Obama brcause he encourages people to take public assistance. Or the famous 47%. I'm sure there are some that game the system but the same can be said about some at the other end of the economic spectrum. But one shouldn't penalize all for the actions of a few. What at we need to do is find a way to break the cycle of poverty for the ones that don't take government assistance as well as the ones who are on government assistance. I think one important component to break this cycle is a good education for all. I think the President's idea of 2 years free community college for those who want it is actually a good idea. I agree with jonda1974 on this one. (OMG, it hurt my brain to say that!) LOL You are correct, breaking the cycle of poverty is key. Education is a huge component of breaking the cycle. Getting parents and grandparents on board with making education a priority is another huge component. Instilling a sense of personal responsibility, providing job training opportunities, more role models for inner-city kids, less of a sense of entitlement among middle-class kids ... it's all important. BUT (draconian or not) until we can talk/educate/browbeat these women and girls into holding off pregnancy when they're still teens and/or if they can't support the kids they already have, the cycle is never going to end. And that is why I'm such a staunch supporter of sex education in schools, free and easily accessible birth control, Planned Parenthood, and whatever other combination of education, medical care, faith-based and social services is out there. Because this rash of teen moms, single moms, addict moms, permanent welfare moms, and the rest of what's been going on the last generation or so in this country is not improving life for the individuals involved or the greater community. I don't believe in shaming single moms, people who get food stamps, or any of the other popular targets, but neither do I believe in cheering on some of these lifestyle choices.
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Post by sabrinae on Jul 17, 2015 14:07:43 GMT
Encouraging smaller families has a sort of draconian ring to it. Problem is too many people feel if one is poor they are automatically taking government assistance. Or these folks choose to be poor. And as such they are lazy people who don't want to work. There are some who just down right insult the poor. How many people said the only reason people voted for President Obama brcause he encourages people to take public assistance. Or the famous 47%. I'm sure there are some that game the system but the same can be said about some at the other end of the economic spectrum. But one shouldn't penalize all for the actions of a few. What at we need to do is find a way to break the cycle of poverty for the ones that don't take government assistance as well as the ones who are on government assistance. I think one important component to break this cycle is a good education for all. I think the President's idea of 2 years free community college for those who want it is actually a good idea. I agree with jonda1974 on this one. (OMG, it hurt my brain to say that!) LOL You are correct, breaking the cycle of poverty is key. Education is a huge component of breaking the cycle. Getting parents and grandparents on board with making education a priority is another huge component. Instilling a sense of personal responsibility, providing job training opportunities, more role models for inner-city kids, less of a sense of entitlement among middle-class kids ... it's all important. BUT (draconian or not) until we can talk/educate/browbeat these women and girls into holding off pregnancy when they're still teens and/or if they can't support the kids they already have, the cycle is never going to end. And that is why I'm such a staunch supporter of sex education in schools, free and easily accessible birth control, Planned Parenthood, and whatever other combination of education, medical care, faith-based and social services is out there. Because this rash of teen moms, single moms, addict moms, permanent welfare moms, and the rest of what's been going on the last generation or so in this country is not improving life for the individuals involved or the greater community. I don't believe in shaming single moms, people who get food stamps, or any of the other popular targets, but neither do I believe in cheering on some of these lifestyle choices. I agree with a of this, but it's not just this generation. All of the issues of addiction, teen pregnancy, single moms, and generational welfare are not new. Choices in which substance to abuse has changed, but otherwise all the same issues have continued to exist. I see 45 year old great grandmas, 30 year old grandma and 15 year old mom with an infant. Grandma and great grandma aren't any better at parenting than mom. Education and delay of parenthood are key to ending the cycle. The trick is finding a way to educate and present information that the target audience will buy into it. That 15 year old mom doesn't know she has any other choices.
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Jul 17, 2015 15:09:15 GMT
I agree with jonda1974 on this one. (OMG, it hurt my brain to say that!) LOL You are correct, breaking the cycle of poverty is key. Education is a huge component of breaking the cycle. Getting parents and grandparents on board with making education a priority is another huge component. Instilling a sense of personal responsibility, providing job training opportunities, more role models for inner-city kids, less of a sense of entitlement among middle-class kids ... it's all important. BUT (draconian or not) until we can talk/educate/browbeat these women and girls into holding off pregnancy when they're still teens and/or if they can't support the kids they already have, the cycle is never going to end. And that is why I'm such a staunch supporter of sex education in schools, free and easily accessible birth control, Planned Parenthood, and whatever other combination of education, medical care, faith-based and social services is out there. Because this rash of teen moms, single moms, addict moms, permanent welfare moms, and the rest of what's been going on the last generation or so in this country is not improving life for the individuals involved or the greater community. I don't believe in shaming single moms, people who get food stamps, or any of the other popular targets, but neither do I believe in cheering on some of these lifestyle choices. I agree with a of this, but it's not just this generation. All of the issues of addiction, teen pregnancy, single moms, and generational welfare are not new. Choices in which substance to abuse has changed, but otherwise all the same issues have continued to exist. I see 45 year old great grandmas, 30 year old grandma and 15 year old mom with an infant. Grandma and great grandma aren't any better at parenting than mom. Education and delay of parenthood are key to ending the cycle. The trick is finding a way to educate and present information that the target audience will buy into it. That 15 year old mom doesn't know she has any other choices. I bolded the last line because that is so true. And even if you present choices to her, in today's world, those choices are all gambles that require sacrifice and delayed gratification for an abstract goal that, if we're being honest, she might actually not be able to achieve. It's well nigh impossible to get enough FA or work your way through college today (especially if you are earning minimum wage). And even if there might be a college willing to give you FA, who is going to help a girl (with no family history or knowledge or appreciation of higher education) navigate the incredibly crowded and complicated waters of college admission, populated with college admission hucksters who promise big bucks but almost always fail to deliver? Then you have to sacrifice, defer gratification for years. Even if you are getting a technical degree, going to culinary school, etc. -- you are deferring gratification for years while watching friends and family get kudos and attention for having that baby. Right now. You are deferring gratification against the wishes of your friends and family who are no doubt putting you down for trying to rise above. They assume you will fail, they expect you to fail... so many of them do. It takes an incredibly strong-willed person to succeed without any support. Most teens are not that strong-willed, able to see an abstract goal, defer gratification, etc UNLESS they have a circle of support and expectation. If the family does not provide it, who will? And even IF you sacrifice and defer gratification for years, who is to say that the degree or training will actually get you a well-paying job, success in a field? I worked my way through college and had a reasonable expectation that I'd get a good job after I graduated. That is no longer the case. I see the friends of my oldest in their mid-twenties grasping for jobs, any jobs, many of them wondering why they got a degree to work as a sales associate in Kohl's and live with their parents because minimum wage won't allow them to have an apartment, let alone pay their student debt. Good question, actually. (My oldest found a job and is doing well, but sadly she's exception, not the rule, and worries constantly about losing her job the way so many of her friends have. I see a huge young underclass of underemployed young people out there whose educations are doing nothing for them.) I worked my way through college with a very small student loan. That is no longer the norm. Who is going to give this young lady good, sound advice about how much student loan debt is okay, what field to enter? Are there any fields with a guaranteed outcome of success? (Compare that to the guaranteed outcome of having unprotected sex.) So yes, there are choices. But even if she is able to see the choice, can she see a way to get to the goal? Who is going to help her navigate the waters to reach the other shore? And realistically, will the goal -- of a well paying job -- be achievable, given the changes in payment, inflation, and employment patterns in the last 30 years?
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 17, 2015 15:29:59 GMT
Encouraging smaller families has a sort of draconian ring to it. Problem is too many people feel if one is poor they are automatically taking government assistance. Or these folks choose to be poor. And as such they are lazy people who don't want to work. There are some who just down right insult the poor. How many people said the only reason people voted for President Obama brcause he encourages people to take public assistance. Or the famous 47%. I'm sure there are some that game the system but the same can be said about some at the other end of the economic spectrum. But one shouldn't penalize all for the actions of a few. What at we need to do is find a way to break the cycle of poverty for the ones that don't take government assistance as well as the ones who are on government assistance. I think one important component to break this cycle is a good education for all. I think the President's idea of 2 years free community college for those who want it is actually a good idea. I agree with jonda1974 on this one. (OMG, it hurt my brain to say that!) LOL You are correct, breaking the cycle of poverty is key. Education is a huge component of breaking the cycle. Getting parents and grandparents on board with making education a priority is another huge component. Instilling a sense of personal responsibility, providing job training opportunities, more role models for inner-city kids, less of a sense of entitlement among middle-class kids ... it's all important. BUT (draconian or not) until we can talk/educate/browbeat these women and girls into holding off pregnancy when they're still teens and/or if they can't support the kids they already have, the cycle is never going to end. And that is why I'm such a staunch supporter of sex education in schools, free and easily accessible birth control, Planned Parenthood, and whatever other combination of education, medical care, faith-based and social services is out there. Because this rash of teen moms, single moms, addict moms, permanent welfare moms, and the rest of what's been going on the last generation or so in this country is not improving life for the individuals involved or the greater community. I don't believe in shaming single moms, people who get food stamps, or any of the other popular targets, but neither do I believe in cheering on some of these lifestyle choices. LOL. Hey now? We've agreed a lot in the past LOL. OK, maybe sometimes. But still . Yes, breaking the cycle of poverty is the key, and I have seen it and heard it many times with my own ears in the neighborhoods around where we spend time, young girls being encouraged to get pregnant so they can start collecting welfare. I can't count the number of times my best friend has been encouraged by outsiders to use his HIV status as a disability and claim psychological issues in order to get assistance. We don't want to acknowledge how often it really does happen, because of the fear of the argument being used for getting rid of welfare. I won't deny, I was a BIG proponent of getting rid of safety nets, not so much, my concepts have changed, and while I firmly believe changes MUST be made, I understand the necessity (even if I belabor the means by which we pay for it lol). Nor do i believe that poor people are lazy. Some are, yes, generational welfare recipients I feel have a larger percentage of that. As an example, my best friends mom has 2 sisters, both have lived on government assistance since their early 20s, neither has ever worked a day in their life (well, one of them was a stripper in her youth). They are constantly talking about how to use the system, abuse the system, get in under the radar. This has been passed on to their children, and their children have followed in their footsteps, some into drug dealing (his mom snuck him drugs in prison in her vagina), some are now behind bars with life without parole. Then you have my best friends mom. She was a single mom most of her life. She has 4 sons, 3 fathers, she was married, but divorced because of abuse, she is now remarried, but she works her ass off. Yes, she spends way too much money in the casinos, but i would never say she doesn't work hard, but the one thing she did for her kids? She moved out of the Bronx, and into Jersey, and even though she would have qualified, she never accepted government assistance. She wanted better for her kids. As a result, her kids have for the most part achieved a better status than her. (yes, they still get trapped in the, spend all the money we have instead of save it, but they work hard and most of the time everything gets paid on time.) She didn't let them get trapped in that cycle. And she beat their butts the one time one of them tried getting involved in gang activity. I have had to use food stamps. Unfortunately I lost them right after I got my new job. It may not seem like a lot, but I was several months behind on everything, I had maxed out every CC, still paying student loans, and losing that little bit of assistance before I was really able to get on my feet again, well, it set back the recovery by many months. I'm just now a year later finally seeing the light of day, but having that little bit of additional help would definitely have been a Godsend for a couple months. I don't have a problem with free community college. I would give them options of 2 years free community college or free trade school. We would as a nation, just have to squeeze the belt in other areas to make that happen. We don't want to be like Greece. And there are a lot of government programs we can cut, including overseas military bases, NEA, etc. But we do have to recognize that the current welfare system is set up, to encourage people to NOT work, rather than to work, and receive the leg up from assistance.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,968
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Jul 17, 2015 15:41:52 GMT
I agree with jonda1974 on this one. (OMG, it hurt my brain to say that!) LOL You are correct, breaking the cycle of poverty is key. Education is a huge component of breaking the cycle. Getting parents and grandparents on board with making education a priority is another huge component. Instilling a sense of personal responsibility, providing job training opportunities, more role models for inner-city kids, less of a sense of entitlement among middle-class kids ... it's all important. BUT (draconian or not) until we can talk/educate/browbeat these women and girls into holding off pregnancy when they're still teens and/or if they can't support the kids they already have, the cycle is never going to end. And that is why I'm such a staunch supporter of sex education in schools, free and easily accessible birth control, Planned Parenthood, and whatever other combination of education, medical care, faith-based and social services is out there. Because this rash of teen moms, single moms, addict moms, permanent welfare moms, and the rest of what's been going on the last generation or so in this country is not improving life for the individuals involved or the greater community. I don't believe in shaming single moms, people who get food stamps, or any of the other popular targets, but neither do I believe in cheering on some of these lifestyle choices. I agree with a of this, but it's not just this generation. All of the issues of addiction, teen pregnancy, single moms, and generational welfare are not new. Choices in which substance to abuse has changed, but otherwise all the same issues have continued to exist. I see 45 year old great grandmas, 30 year old grandma and 15 year old mom with an infant. Grandma and great grandma aren't any better at parenting than mom. Education and delay of parenthood are key to ending the cycle. The trick is finding a way to educate and present information that the target audience will buy into it. That 15 year old mom doesn't know she has any other choices. She knows she has other choices. She just doesn't see their worth. She has to fight the culture of her community that actively encourages teen pregnancy.
I know people don't want to hear it, and many don't believe it, but I see it every year. There are girls that get pregnant on purpose. To prove they're real women. To try to trap boys that sleep around. To ensure a purpose for themselves. To guarantee that someone will always love them. To avoid getting jobs. For some girls and their families teen pregnancy is simply expected, if not encouraged.
Add this group of girls to the girls that see teen pregnancy romanticized on TV. Girls that maybe were actively taught NOT to get pregnant, but aren't as concerned if "an accident" happens. THIS I am seeing a lot more too. Girls that know that birth control is available but they just aren't scared enough to follow through all of the time. When I was in high school the reason why I didn't sleep with my boyfriend was because I wasn't willing to have a baby with him. If I had been told there was a 100% effective, no matter what, form of birth control, I probably would have. I was too afraid of getting pregnant to risk even a .01% chance. That fear has turned into a sense of inconvenience.
I truly believe that much, if not most, of our poverty issues in this country could be solved if people waited to start families.
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 17:01:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 15:42:57 GMT
BUT (draconian or not) until we can talk/educate/browbeat these women and girls into holding off pregnancy when they're still teens and/or if they can't support the kids they already have, the cycle is never going to end. I was kind of agreeing with you until I got to this paragraph especially the word "browbeat". I don't disagree having babies they can't support is part of the "cycle of poverty" that needs to be broken. However it's just a short jump from encouraging these women (& teens) to postpone having children to demanding that they don't. And you know there are some in public office who would consider actually making this a requirement to receiving any sort of public assistance. These women/teens have to come to the conclusion on there own to postpone having children and the best way of doing that is giving them options. That can be done with a good education and to give them opportunities so see what they can achieve. One way is internships in businesses during the summer or half of a school day can be spent working. These kids could be paid minimum wage and the government could give a tax cut to the businesses that participate in the program. I know my old office had interns one summer in association with some program. It gives these kids an exposure of what is out there . And it's good publicity for the businesses. You know giving back to the community. I also agree part of education in schools should include sex education. But other things that should be taught in school are classes on how to start your own business. Or if not in school at a community center. Teachers could work with the SBA. There are a lot of things that can be done to help women/teens come to the conclusion to wait to have babies without "encouraging or browbeating" them not to have babies.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 17, 2015 15:43:02 GMT
I agree with a of this, but it's not just this generation. All of the issues of addiction, teen pregnancy, single moms, and generational welfare are not new. Choices in which substance to abuse has changed, but otherwise all the same issues have continued to exist. I see 45 year old great grandmas, 30 year old grandma and 15 year old mom with an infant. Grandma and great grandma aren't any better at parenting than mom. Education and delay of parenthood are key to ending the cycle. The trick is finding a way to educate and present information that the target audience will buy into it. That 15 year old mom doesn't know she has any other choices. I bolded the last line because that is so true. And even if you present choices to her, in today's world, those choices are all gambles that require sacrifice and delayed gratification for an abstract goal that, if we're being honest, she might actually not be able to achieve. It's well nigh impossible to get enough FA or work your way through college today (especially if you are earning minimum wage). And even if there might be a college willing to give you FA, who is going to help a girl (with no family history or knowledge or appreciation of higher education) navigate the incredibly crowded and complicated waters of college admission, populated with college admission hucksters who promise big bucks but almost always fail to deliver? Then you have to sacrifice, defer gratification for years. Even if you are getting a technical degree, going to culinary school, etc. -- you are deferring gratification for years while watching friends and family get kudos and attention for having that baby. Right now. You are deferring gratification against the wishes of your friends and family who are no doubt putting you down for trying to rise above. They assume you will fail, they expect you to fail... so many of them do. It takes an incredibly strong-willed person to succeed without any support. Most teens are not that strong-willed, able to see an abstract goal, defer gratification, etc UNLESS they have a circle of support and expectation. If the family does not provide it, who will? And even IF you sacrifice and defer gratification for years, who is to say that the degree or training will actually get you a well-paying job, success in a field? I worked my way through college and had a reasonable expectation that I'd get a good job after I graduated. That is no longer the case. I see the friends of my oldest in their mid-twenties grasping for jobs, any jobs, many of them wondering why they got a degree to work as a sales associate in Kohl's and live with their parents because minimum wage won't allow them to have an apartment, let alone pay their student debt. Good question, actually. (My oldest found a job and is doing well, but sadly she's exception, not the rule, and worries constantly about losing her job the way so many of her friends have. I see a huge young underclass of underemployed young people out there whose educations are doing nothing for them.) I worked my way through college with a very small student loan. That is no longer the norm. Who is going to give this young lady good, sound advice about how much student loan debt is okay, what field to enter? Are there any fields with a guaranteed outcome of success? (Compare that to the guaranteed outcome of having unprotected sex.) So yes, there are choices. But even if she is able to see the choice, can she see a way to get to the goal? Who is going to help her navigate the waters to reach the other shore? And realistically, will the goal -- of a well paying job -- be achievable, given the changes in payment, inflation, and employment patterns in the last 30 years? I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I get a real sense of an acceptability of someone "throwing up their hands and saying, oh well, I can't do it good enough, so might as well not at all." We have to start teaching personal responsibility while being compassionate. At some point, that teenager needs to feel empowered as an individual with strengths and abilities, and not a baby making machine.
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Post by hop2 on Jul 17, 2015 15:48:37 GMT
Family culture and work ethic plays an important role in if a family is going to be poor and find a way to push the next generation above them or if it will be a repeat cycle of generational poverty.
And our system is set up to encourage the later ( generational poverty ) there are plenty if people who come here from other cultures with the clothes on their back. They work hard, MAKE their children put education first and somehow find the time to assure that thier kuds maintain good grades. These kids have no choice but to get good grades.
Then you have the person who made a poor life choice and somehow ended up in the system, but after hard work and sacrifice that person is now qualified for an entry level position above min wage, but if they take that position then they'll be forced out of the affordable housing they are in. But equivalent housing would be 60-70% of their salary what choice CAN they make? This person still has the same work ethic, still worked hard getting training while working their crappy job but now they are trapped. Unless they have some incredible stroke of luck to find the one miracle affordable apartment where do they go?
On the last case you have the people who were raised in the system, maybe their iatents hit the obstacles as the person above and gave up or maybe they never had a work ethic who knows but the child isn't given any examples of working hard they aren't given a decent education and what they do know is how to work the system. How do you expect a child who knows nothing else to do anything else. Where do they kearn that?
Assistance should be a hand up not a chain keeping you down. Our system is broken. ( and I work with that system every day) it needs to change.
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Post by sabrinae on Jul 17, 2015 17:20:39 GMT
I agree with a of this, but it's not just this generation. All of the issues of addiction, teen pregnancy, single moms, and generational welfare are not new. Choices in which substance to abuse has changed, but otherwise all the same issues have continued to exist. I see 45 year old great grandmas, 30 year old grandma and 15 year old mom with an infant. Grandma and great grandma aren't any better at parenting than mom. Education and delay of parenthood are key to ending the cycle. The trick is finding a way to educate and present information that the target audience will buy into it. That 15 year old mom doesn't know she has any other choices. She knows she has other choices. She just doesn't see their worth. She has to fight the culture of her community that actively encourages teen pregnancy.
I know people don't want to hear it, and many don't believe it, but I see it every year. There are girls that get pregnant on purpose. To prove they're real women. To try to trap boys that sleep around. To ensure a purpose for themselves. To guarantee that someone will always love them. To avoid getting jobs. For some girls and their families teen pregnancy is simply expected, if not encouraged.
Add this group of girls to the girls that see teen pregnancy romanticized on TV. Girls that maybe were actively taught NOT to get pregnant, but aren't as concerned if "an accident" happens. THIS I am seeing a lot more too. Girls that know that birth control is available but they just aren't scared enough to follow through all of the time. When I was in high school the reason why I didn't sleep with my boyfriend was because I wasn't willing to have a baby with him. If I had been told there was a 100% effective, no matter what, form of birth control, I probably would have. I was too afraid of getting pregnant to risk even a .01% chance. That fear has turned into a sense of inconvenience.
I truly believe that much, if not most, of our poverty issues in this country could be solved if people waited to start families.
[ I see it everyday. I agree they have s choice, but they can't always see that there is a choice. Especially when they're families and communities encourage having the baby It's easy to sit here and say they have a choice when we're not living their life. It's mich harder for them to have any hope of successfully implementing that choice when they have been taught they're entirenlifenthat having a baby At 14 or 15 is what you do. I live in Appalachia there are not a lot of opportunities even if you have a good education let alone no education and an infant.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 17, 2015 19:27:37 GMT
linkI thought this was a good link to post here.
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Jul 17, 2015 20:27:51 GMT
I bolded the last line because that is so true. And even if you present choices to her, in today's world, those choices are all gambles that require sacrifice and delayed gratification for an abstract goal that, if we're being honest, she might actually not be able to achieve. It's well nigh impossible to get enough FA or work your way through college today (especially if you are earning minimum wage). And even if there might be a college willing to give you FA, who is going to help a girl (with no family history or knowledge or appreciation of higher education) navigate the incredibly crowded and complicated waters of college admission, populated with college admission hucksters who promise big bucks but almost always fail to deliver? Then you have to sacrifice, defer gratification for years. Even if you are getting a technical degree, going to culinary school, etc. -- you are deferring gratification for years while watching friends and family get kudos and attention for having that baby. Right now. You are deferring gratification against the wishes of your friends and family who are no doubt putting you down for trying to rise above. They assume you will fail, they expect you to fail... so many of them do. It takes an incredibly strong-willed person to succeed without any support. Most teens are not that strong-willed, able to see an abstract goal, defer gratification, etc UNLESS they have a circle of support and expectation. If the family does not provide it, who will? And even IF you sacrifice and defer gratification for years, who is to say that the degree or training will actually get you a well-paying job, success in a field? I worked my way through college and had a reasonable expectation that I'd get a good job after I graduated. That is no longer the case. I see the friends of my oldest in their mid-twenties grasping for jobs, any jobs, many of them wondering why they got a degree to work as a sales associate in Kohl's and live with their parents because minimum wage won't allow them to have an apartment, let alone pay their student debt. Good question, actually. (My oldest found a job and is doing well, but sadly she's exception, not the rule, and worries constantly about losing her job the way so many of her friends have. I see a huge young underclass of underemployed young people out there whose educations are doing nothing for them.) I worked my way through college with a very small student loan. That is no longer the norm. Who is going to give this young lady good, sound advice about how much student loan debt is okay, what field to enter? Are there any fields with a guaranteed outcome of success? (Compare that to the guaranteed outcome of having unprotected sex.) So yes, there are choices. But even if she is able to see the choice, can she see a way to get to the goal? Who is going to help her navigate the waters to reach the other shore? And realistically, will the goal -- of a well paying job -- be achievable, given the changes in payment, inflation, and employment patterns in the last 30 years? I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I get a real sense of an acceptability of someone "throwing up their hands and saying, oh well, I can't do it good enough, so might as well not at all." We have to start teaching personal responsibility while being compassionate. At some point, that teenager needs to feel empowered as an individual with strengths and abilities, and not a baby making machine. My point was not about it being acceptable in larger society, but about teen pregnancy and poverty being the norm in part because of a culture that accepts it and a larger culture that doesn't do enough to make other choices visible and viable. And a larger culture that celebrates instant gratification, young female sexuality, etc. Note also that I asked questions asking WHO is going to help these young ladies see other choices and -- more important -- help them actually achieve goals other than being a grandma at 32?? I get tired of all the fingerpointing by people who never seem to notice that four of those fingers are pointing back at themselves. What we are doing as a society to help those in poverty achieve something more, starting by giving them an idea that something more exists and continuing with helping them to achieve that something more?
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 17, 2015 20:40:17 GMT
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I get a real sense of an acceptability of someone "throwing up their hands and saying, oh well, I can't do it good enough, so might as well not at all." We have to start teaching personal responsibility while being compassionate. At some point, that teenager needs to feel empowered as an individual with strengths and abilities, and not a baby making machine. My point was not about it being acceptable in larger society, but about teen pregnancy and poverty being the norm in part because of a culture that accepts it and a larger culture that doesn't do enough to make other choices visible and viable. And a larger culture that celebrates instant gratification, young female sexuality, etc. Note also that I asked questions asking WHO is going to help these young ladies see other choices and -- more important -- help them actually achieve goals other than being a grandma at 32?? I get tired of all the fingerpointing by people who never seem to notice that four of those fingers are pointing back at themselves. What we are doing as a society to help those in poverty achieve something more, starting by giving them an idea that something more exists and continuing with helping them to achieve that something more?
I thought it was good to quote Mallie's post so it's more easily seen without the rest of the quoted stuff above it.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 17, 2015 21:02:19 GMT
I think in large part, society as a whole is to blame for that culture. In trying to help, our broken welfare system has encouraged that behavior, and fixing it is one step in mending the problem. Requiring that those young mothers attend classes and/or work to receive the assistance I think is one thing that we can do. It isn't going to be an overnight fix, as we have generational welfare which has adopted that mentality.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,968
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Jul 17, 2015 21:02:41 GMT
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I get a real sense of an acceptability of someone "throwing up their hands and saying, oh well, I can't do it good enough, so might as well not at all." We have to start teaching personal responsibility while being compassionate. At some point, that teenager needs to feel empowered as an individual with strengths and abilities, and not a baby making machine. My point was not about it being acceptable in larger society, but about teen pregnancy and poverty being the norm in part because of a culture that accepts it and a larger culture that doesn't do enough to make other choices visible and viable. And a larger culture that celebrates instant gratification, young female sexuality, etc. Note also that I asked questions asking WHO is going to help these young ladies see other choices and -- more important -- help them actually achieve goals other than being a grandma at 32?? I get tired of all the fingerpointing by people who never seem to notice that four of those fingers are pointing back at themselves. What we are doing as a society to help those in poverty achieve something more, starting by giving them an idea that something more exists and continuing with helping them to achieve that something more? I will tell you that my school district is awesome at providing opportunities galore for these children. There are all sorts of programs set up to prepare students for a successful life. The problem at the high school level is that we simply cannot overcome the culture they've accepted for the first 14 years of their lives. School life is usually radically different than home life for these children. We hold no credibility when it comes to advising life choices. But having a societal push to postpone families will never fly. Too many people will say that it isn't anyone's business about another person's reproduction. That we can't tell people to not have babies just because they can't afford them. You'll hear "Eugenics," "Hitler," and such. That's what we need though. A series of "Just so you know" PSAs about delaying pregnancy. About how much better off you'd be if only you get started in a career and have some money saved up before you become responsible for another life.
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Post by mikewozowski on Jul 17, 2015 22:17:58 GMT
why not tell people not to have babies if they can't afford them. that's what the rest of us do. we have two. we could have had 7 (or 19 and counting), but we wouldn't have been able to support that many!
it is not a racial thing, either. applies to everyone.
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kate
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,517
Location: The city that doesn't sleep
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Jun 26, 2014 3:30:05 GMT
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Post by kate on Jul 17, 2015 23:38:24 GMT
That's what we need though. A series of "Just so you know" PSAs about delaying pregnancy. About how much better off you'd be if only you get started in a career and have some money saved up before you become responsible for another life. They have those in the NYC subways! It's not necessarily about saving up money, but more about the grim realities of teen parenthood - for both boys and girls.
ETA clearly my quoting skills need some refining...
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Post by doesitmatter on Jul 18, 2015 2:12:34 GMT
link to articleI just put a library hold on the book Hand To Mouth: Living In Bootstrap America by Linda Tirado. I'm looking forward to reading it. We read this and studied poverty extinsively last semester. It's such a complex issue and sadly our current leadership has made it so much harder for many of us the last few years. I am not sure how we can provide for everyone in need, but I pray we find a way. No one should go hungry, without healthcare, or without a home - sadly all of these social issues have increased dramatically under the current administration. I do pray that we shall overcome!
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Post by lucyg on Jul 18, 2015 16:54:28 GMT
I agree with jonda1974 on this one. (OMG, it hurt my brain to say that!) LOL You are correct, breaking the cycle of poverty is key. Education is a huge component of breaking the cycle. Getting parents and grandparents on board with making education a priority is another huge component. Instilling a sense of personal responsibility, providing job training opportunities, more role models for inner-city kids, less of a sense of entitlement among middle-class kids ... it's all important. BUT (draconian or not) until we can talk/educate/browbeat these women and girls into holding off pregnancy when they're still teens and/or if they can't support the kids they already have, the cycle is never going to end. And that is why I'm such a staunch supporter of sex education in schools, free and easily accessible birth control, Planned Parenthood, and whatever other combination of education, medical care, faith-based and social services is out there. Because this rash of teen moms, single moms, addict moms, permanent welfare moms, and the rest of what's been going on the last generation or so in this country is not improving life for the individuals involved or the greater community. I don't believe in shaming single moms, people who get food stamps, or any of the other popular targets, but neither do I believe in cheering on some of these lifestyle choices. I agree with a of this, but it's not just this generation. All of the issues of addiction, teen pregnancy, single moms, and generational welfare are not new. Choices in which substance to abuse has changed, but otherwise all the same issues have continued to exist. I see 45 year old great grandmas, 30 year old grandma and 15 year old mom with an infant. Grandma and great grandma aren't any better at parenting than mom. Education and delay of parenthood are key to ending the cycle. The trick is finding a way to educate and present information that the target audience will buy into it. That 15 year old mom doesn't know she has any other choices. I totally agree that none of this is new, but it's only in the last couple of generations that it's no longer frowned upon for unwed teens to have babies. Removing that social stigma has (IMO) made the number of teens who get pregnant, keep the pregnancy, and keep the baby after birth soar. I don't want to make social pariahs of teen moms, but I do want them to start to realize that there are other options in life. Because what's going on now is mostly not working well for anyone.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 18, 2015 17:01:00 GMT
BUT (draconian or not) until we can talk/educate/browbeat these women and girls into holding off pregnancy when they're still teens and/or if they can't support the kids they already have, the cycle is never going to end. I was kind of agreeing with you until I got to this paragraph especially the word "browbeat". I don't disagree having babies they can't support is part of the "cycle of poverty" that needs to be broken. However it's just a short jump from encouraging these women (& teens) to postpone having children to demanding that they don't. And you know there are some in public office who would consider actually making this a requirement to receiving any sort of public assistance. These women/teens have to come to the conclusion on there own to postpone having children and the best way of doing that is giving them options. That can be done with a good education and to give them opportunities so see what they can achieve. One way is internships in businesses during the summer or half of a school day can be spent working. These kids could be paid minimum wage and the government could give a tax cut to the businesses that participate in the program. I know my old office had interns one summer in association with some program. It gives these kids an exposure of what is out there . And it's good publicity for the businesses. You know giving back to the community. I also agree part of education in schools should include sex education. But other things that should be taught in school are classes on how to start your own business. Or if not in school at a community center. Teachers could work with the SBA. There are a lot of things that can be done to help women/teens come to the conclusion to wait to have babies without "encouraging or browbeating" them not to have babies. I was using the word "browbeat" in a very casual way. We don't legislate how many children people may have, but I don't see a problem with setting social policy and I definitely don't see a problem with encouraging women not to have children they can't afford and/or can't effectively raise. No problem whatsoever.
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Post by ntsf on Jul 18, 2015 17:07:28 GMT
we need to replicate the colorado experience. (and experience from europe) and give free birth control to everyone who wants it. it is shown to lower the birth rate...and money is no longer the barrier...
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 17:01:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 17:33:12 GMT
I was kind of agreeing with you until I got to this paragraph especially the word "browbeat". I don't disagree having babies they can't support is part of the "cycle of poverty" that needs to be broken. However it's just a short jump from encouraging these women (& teens) to postpone having children to demanding that they don't. And you know there are some in public office who would consider actually making this a requirement to receiving any sort of public assistance. These women/teens have to come to the conclusion on there own to postpone having children and the best way of doing that is giving them options. That can be done with a good education and to give them opportunities so see what they can achieve. One way is internships in businesses during the summer or half of a school day can be spent working. These kids could be paid minimum wage and the government could give a tax cut to the businesses that participate in the program. I know my old office had interns one summer in association with some program. It gives these kids an exposure of what is out there . And it's good publicity for the businesses. You know giving back to the community. I also agree part of education in schools should include sex education. But other things that should be taught in school are classes on how to start your own business. Or if not in school at a community center. Teachers could work with the SBA. There are a lot of things that can be done to help women/teens come to the conclusion to wait to have babies without "encouraging or browbeating" them not to have babies. I was using the word "browbeat" in a very casual way. We don't legislate how many children people may have, but I don't see a problem with setting social policy and I definitely don't see a problem with encouraging women not to have children they can't afford and/or can't effectively raise. No problem whatsoever. I guess I have been around long enough to become cynical and see "encouraging" and "brow beating" quickly becoming "demanding" by some politicians. Just look at some of the ridiculous mean spirited laws that are being considered and passed by Republicans. So I guess we will agree to disagree on this issue.
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