|
Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 13, 2015 17:10:45 GMT
Maybe the take away is that even if you don't think a term is offensive, someone else might so if you want others to be respectful about the things you think are offensive, you should give them the respect you would like in return. Obviously, we can't always know what might be offensive but if we all try to be as respectful as possible (and you can still state your opinions in a respectful way), wouldn't the country be a better place for all?
|
|
Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
|
Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 13, 2015 17:26:38 GMT
Yes, but sometimes the responses are extremely subtle like the rates of girls entering engineering programs. Or the rates of teen boys committing suicide. I'm not saying that those two things are solely attributable to gender marketing but it's all part and parcel of a larger trend. I think that those in a lot of ways at least in terms of boys committing suicide are tied more with sexuality than gender. Albeit those who are intersex have a much higher rate of suicide. I guess I've never really put a lot of thought into it. Like with science and engineering. I just chalked it up to a higher percentage of girls not being interested in those fields rather than being steered away from them. The rate of teen suicide among boys is 5x higher than that of teen girls - I don't think that difference can explained by sexuality.
As for women entering engineering, there is a huge discrepancy in a girl's ability in math and science and their perceived competence that starts as young as kindergarten. People, both men and women enter fields where they feel confident in their abilities. If women are not 'interested' in the engineering field, I would argue that it has little to do with biology and much to do with society saying that they aren't competent in math and science regardless of their skill level.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Aug 13, 2015 17:33:03 GMT
Maybe the take away is that even if you don't think a term is offensive, someone else might so if you want others to be respectful about the things you think are offensive, you should give them the respect you would like in return. Obviously, we can't always know what might be offensive but if we all try to be as respectful as possible (and you can still state your opinions in a respectful way), wouldn't the country be a better place for all? I try to always be respectful, especially if I know something offends someone else. However, I'm not going to go through life second guessing every more, decision, statement or opinion on the off chance someone on the street I don't know will be offended. That is what is wrong with being PC. It isn't done out of sense of connection with someone, it's done because it's the cause d'jour of the moment.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Aug 13, 2015 17:37:46 GMT
I think that those in a lot of ways at least in terms of boys committing suicide are tied more with sexuality than gender. Albeit those who are intersex have a much higher rate of suicide. I guess I've never really put a lot of thought into it. Like with science and engineering. I just chalked it up to a higher percentage of girls not being interested in those fields rather than being steered away from them. The rate of teen suicide among boys is 5x higher than that of teen girls - I don't think that difference can explained by sexuality.
As for women entering engineering, there is a huge discrepancy in a girl's ability in math and science and their perceived competence that starts as young as kindergarten. People, both men and women enter fields where they feel confident in their abilities. If women are not 'interested' in the engineering field, I would argue that it has little to do with biology and much to do with society saying that they aren't competent in math and science regardless of their skill level.
I actually didn't realize that about the teen suicide rate. I'd be curious to read more into the statistics and causation studies for it. I'm confused on the math & science. You mentioned that there is a huge discrepancy in their ability. It that a discrepancy in the fact that they are actually more competent based on research than society gives them credit for? I would say that people enter fields not just because of competence, but because of interest as well. Even if I was competent in Math, I may not want a career in math because it doesn't appeal to me. I would need to see more research on why girls don't choose those career paths.
|
|
|
Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 13, 2015 17:42:08 GMT
I don't know... I guess I just have never really thought about it enough to get upset over it or feel like I need to rebel. I live my life in a way that is pretty respectful and understanding of others but I am sure I have been offensive to someone along the way, just like everyone else.
|
|
Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
|
Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 13, 2015 17:49:23 GMT
The rate of teen suicide among boys is 5x higher than that of teen girls - I don't think that difference can explained by sexuality.
As for women entering engineering, there is a huge discrepancy in a girl's ability in math and science and their perceived competence that starts as young as kindergarten. People, both men and women enter fields where they feel confident in their abilities. If women are not 'interested' in the engineering field, I would argue that it has little to do with biology and much to do with society saying that they aren't competent in math and science regardless of their skill level.
I actually didn't realize that about the teen suicide rate. I'd be curious to read more into the statistics and causation studies for it. I'm confused on the math & science. You mentioned that there is a huge discrepancy in their ability. It that a discrepancy in the fact that they are actually more competent based on research than society gives them credit for? I would say that people enter fields not just because of competence, but because of interest as well. Even if I was competent in Math, I may not want a career in math because it doesn't appeal to me. I would need to see more research on why girls don't choose those career paths. A few things - I don't think most people realise that about teen suicide rates. We talk a lot about the pressures that teen girls face but not those of teen boys. And that, in itself, contributes to the problem. Teen boys are taught to suppress. Be strong, be a man, don't let them see you hurt.
Girls perceive themselves to be less competent in math and science from a very young age than boys when, in actuality, they typically display equal ability. I don't think that you can easily separate interest in a subject and perceived competence. People are naturally more interested in something that they know they are good at.
|
|
|
Post by gmcwife1 on Aug 13, 2015 18:06:59 GMT
I'm sorry, if you are using that one mini discussion to loop back to Target changing the aisles, you are missing that for me what you bolded was in direct response to being offended there are pink and blue tools. I have not commented on Target changing the aisles as I never noticed they had boy and girl aisles. If you notice most of my discussion on this thread including an example and question has been specific to overly political correctness. Which is not the same as using kindness and common sense. Common sense tells you that a picture of a childs desk that is black, labeled black childs desk does not mean that desk is only for black children. I personally think that common sense needs to be used both ways. And again, if my black breeder refers to my white puppy as black boy on both her website, on Facebook and in discussion with others, is she now unkind because that might offend someone? This is where I feel political correctness is not the same as kindness and common sense. It kind of annoys me that someone would even think my breeder is unkind because she is one of the nicest and yes kindest people I'm now lucky enough to get to know. She is also not offensive and most certainly wouldn't do something she felt would offend her race! I'm sorry, I was posting in the wrong thread. However, as a (retired) marketing copywriter, I'm not going to use a term like Black Child's Desk in ad copy. It's just a poor choice of words when Child's Desk - Black would serve the same purpose without sounding weird about it. And if (collar color)(sex) is the standard used in the dog breeding field to identify individual animals, then go for it, when you're in the dog breeding world. If you're sitting in Denny's talking loudly about Black Boy, yeah, chances are someone is going to overhear, misunderstand, and take it the wrong way. If you know that Black Boy is a demeaning term to the general public, why would you want to use it in public? It's nice that your breeder is black and not offended by the term, but I believe she would not be the norm within the black community. Sure, the world is full of people dreaming up things to be offended by. Some of that we can ignore. But I don't get the need to use terminology that is known to be offensive or upsetting to the general public. I posted in the wrong, though similar thread recently myself and it may have even been a discussion we were having!! I actually do not call my dog black boy, I call him many nicknames, but that is not one of them. Just wanted to put that out there. BUT I did think it was a very good discussion of his original name! The overthinking about it came about because the puppies just celebrated their first birthday. When I was posting on Facebook I could not remember all the puppies names. So that is when they were and would be referred to as the original collar color. When we met one of his littermates at a dog park a few months ago we found out it was yellow girl. Who is now named Nahla. Her owners didn't know our puppy as Ryder but as black boy. When they are babies and not yet assigned to their people or have their new names, they are all known by prospective owners, other breeders, anyone attached to them by their collar colors. I do know the name of several of his litter mates, so I know that red girl is Shasta, blue boy is Watson, etc. But I do not know all of them and they of course do not all know that black boy is now named Ryder. So he is often still referred to as black boy. Someone might ask our breeder what happened to black boy, is he in the ring, did black boy go to a show home, etc. I'm curious if the dog group discussed any puppies at the Portland Oregon show when we had a huge group out to dinner together. I do wonder what other people may have thought because the table wouldn't have given it any thought at all It's the same thing when you hear young kids calling a female dog a b*tch. People outside the dog world would be shocked, but in the dog world that is the proper terminology and considered correct. A child calling them something else would be incorrect. Ok, now I've just added another offensive term dog breeders use, I probably shouldn't keep unintentionally throwing them under the bus I think people don't realize that not every word or term is offensive all the time and can be used correctly in various situations, industries, etc.
|
|
|
Post by crimsoncat05 on Aug 13, 2015 18:12:40 GMT
"I think people don't realize that not every word or term is offensive all the time and can be used correctly in various situations, industries, etc."
^^^ I think this is worth repeating.
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Aug 14, 2015 6:25:48 GMT
Yes, but sometimes the responses are extremely subtle like the rates of girls entering engineering programs. Or the rates of teen boys committing suicide. I'm not saying that those two things are solely attributable to gender marketing but it's all part and parcel of a larger trend. I think that those in a lot of ways at least in terms of boys committing suicide are tied more with sexuality than gender. Albeit those who are intersex have a much higher rate of suicide. I guess I've never really put a lot of thought into it. Like with science and engineering. I just chalked it up to a higher percentage of girls not being interested in those fields rather than being steered away from them. When I was a girl in school, the girls in my class liked math and could do it just fine one year, the next, suddenly they were dumb as nails. I thought they were especially stupid for believing that math was suddenly too hard for them. It's a not-very-subtle message taught us throughout our lives. Sorry Jonda, but if you've never thought about it before now, then you probably really haven't experienced it.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Aug 14, 2015 20:09:14 GMT
No arguments on it, just hadn't really every given it much thought, but then again I'm not a girl, so that might be a big reason I never noticed. I do know the pressures of "be a man" on young teen boys though.
|
|
|
Post by librarylady on Aug 15, 2015 1:45:33 GMT
to me, it sounds like nothing more than a marketing strategy (although maybe it's backfired on them)-- 'look at us, we've improved something about our stores; aren't we so progressive, and doesn't it make you want to spend your money here, now?' I totally agree some PR expert told them this would be a perfect opportunity to garner attention and dollars. I think they have since been fired. I thought the idea came from a letter from a little girl who wrote to inquire about the "boy" designation for a toy she liked.....additionally, there was a boy who wanted an oven/kitchen and objected to it being labeled. I have no idea, but I figured that over the conference table there were (hopefully) some adults who recognized that children didn't like the designations. ...or perhaps that person at the conference table had a child who didn't fit into the gender role.
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Aug 15, 2015 12:54:25 GMT
I totally agree some PR expert told them this would be a perfect opportunity to garner attention and dollars. I think they have since been fired. I thought the idea came from a letter from a little girl who wrote to inquire about the "boy" designation for a toy she liked.....additionally, there was a boy who wanted an oven/kitchen and objected to it being labeled. I have no idea, but I figured that over the conference table there were (hopefully) some adults who recognized that children didn't like the designations. ...or perhaps that person at the conference table had a child who didn't fit into the gender role. That makes so much more sense to me than the idea that Target suddenly caved to political correctness imposed upon it by the sudden interest in the media recently. The concept is so simple, it's probably too obvious.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Aug 17, 2015 17:36:13 GMT
Even if the idea was prompted by "letters". Written probably and encouraged by politically correct adults. Depending on the ages of the children in question. It still wasn't necessary to make it a PR stunt. Why the need to publicize it?
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Aug 18, 2015 0:07:05 GMT
Even if the idea was prompted by "letters". Written probably and encouraged by politically correct adults. Depending on the ages of the children in question. It still wasn't necessary to make it a PR stunt. Why the need to publicize it? Well, first of all, any marketing change a retailer makes may as well be put to good use and get extra mileage out of it. That this change was publicized is kinda like asking why the sky is blue and the sun is yellow. I really don't understand why this is even a question. For years, these retailers have done the girly girl and manly boy toy aisles to death. They're nothing but parodies of what children want to play with and I know a good many people, including me, who think they've been nothing but nauseating. Now that same-sex marriage is legally recognized in every state of the land and the supremely talented Bruce Jenner is now known as Caitlyn Jenner, I think this is the absolutely perfect time to bring some reality back to this perversion of childhood. This is a land of freedom and opportunity that doesn't end at the toy aisle. Ever notice how really good (and often educational) toys tend to be gender neutral? Ever wonder why? FWIW, gender neutral toys like that would tend to be considered boy toys, especially since they are rarely pink or purple. Do you have any idea how many parents wouldn't consider giving their girl one of those toys? It's a disgrace to treat our daughters like this, and the part of me that earned a BS in an extremely male field is over-the-moon happy that we can wipe off a lot of the false gender marketing and begin to focus more on what the toy is supposed to do than what the packaging for the toy is supposed to do. My daughter inherited a pink Barbie doll house from the boy down the street as soon as he was old enough to understand that wasn't a boy kind of toy. I'm not sure how long he would have wanted to play with it if it had been more acceptable to his friends at the time. This change is good for boys, too. I couldn't care less if this change is because of political correctness or not. It's change that's long overdue.
|
|