anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,402
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 20, 2014 15:07:06 GMT
Have just seen a couple on the news begging Putin to return their children to them. Truly heartbreaking.
Bodies have been put on a train and removed to a city in the rebel held area. Why?
There are disturbing reports of credit cards being taken from the scene, and film of someone removing a black box.
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Post by juliet on Jul 20, 2014 15:44:00 GMT
Juliet, I'm so sorry you have had more sad news about your colleagues. What did your peeps say about how your PM was handling the situation? I saw him on TV the other night and I thought he handled himself very well. Thank you (and everyone else who has said such sweet things!). About the PM: they said the usual....he's not taking enough action, not hard enough, more sanctions towards Russia are needed....etc. But overall they're not all negative about him. They know he can't force things at the moment.
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 15:47:40 GMT
I read that they'd been transferred to a refrigerated train because they were starting to decompose and they are now at a morgue. Whether that is true or not I couldn't say. You get a different story from one report to another.
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 20, 2014 15:50:41 GMT
Oh Juliet, I am so sorry to hear that.
We were just told that a couple we know from Australia were on that aircraft too returning home from attending an Andre Rieu concert in Maastricht, having been in Holland especially for that.
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 20, 2014 15:55:06 GMT
Have just seen a couple on the news begging Putin to return their children to them. Truly heartbreaking. Bodies have been put on a train and removed to a city in the rebel held area. Why? There are disturbing reports of credit cards being taken from the scene, and film of someone removing a black box. It's heartbreaking reading and watching the news at the moment. I read about the train going to an undisclosed destination......as you say Annie, Why? Just hope someone is going to let the relatives into the secret, and very, very quickly!!
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 15:57:46 GMT
Juliet, I'm so sorry you have had more sad news about your colleagues. What did your peeps say about how your PM was handling the situation? I saw him on TV the other night and I thought he handled himself very well. Thank you (and everyone else who has said such sweet things!). About the PM: they said the usual....he's not taking enough action, not hard enough, more sanctions towards Russia are needed....etc. But overall they're not all negative about him. They know he can't force things at the moment. There has been talks regarding tightening the sanctions in the last 24 hours Juliet. UK,Germany and France are already calling for the EU to move on it. If it's any consolation to you, Western Europe are behind you all the way. David Cameron and Angela Merkel have been very vocal in the need to do so. I'm sorry that you've had more bad news.x
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 16:02:04 GMT
So, so sorry to hear of your losses, Juliet & Barbara.
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Post by juliet on Jul 20, 2014 16:05:18 GMT
That's the sucky thing. We wish we could be all independent, but our country is so small, we'll always need help from the larger countries. I wish we didn't have to rely on others in difficult political situations like these. As soon as you know it we'll have another World War, superpowers will come to our rescue and we'll have to be grateful till the end of our days. Ah well.
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Post by juliet on Jul 20, 2014 16:06:02 GMT
Oh Juliet, I am so sorry to hear that. We were just told that a couple we know from Australia were on that aircraft too returning home from attending an Andre Rieu concert in Maastricht, having been in Holland especially for that. I'm really sorry Barbara!
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 16:30:23 GMT
I'm sorry to hear that Barbara
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 16:38:54 GMT
Juliet...
Let me explain my POV to you...(If I can)
In the 20th century, the US was a superpower and helped many other nations. I also believe that we need to operate from a position of strength, because of our tradition of belief in democracy & freedom.
I don't feel like other nations are provincial or somehow less than us or less sovereign.
I just feel that because of our nation's beginnings & history (belief in democracy & freedom) that our President needs to be strong and show strong leadership, not because of nations like Holland & like-minded nations, but because of the nations that are NOT like us.
I do not feel that our current President does this. It bothers me, because I feel it makes our world less safe & emboldens our enemies.
I respect all of the other free nations of the world. I respect the ways in which we are different and the ways in which we are alike. I adore reading posts from all of the international peas, and am very saddened by this tragedy.
Also, I realize that Lynlam & AB may have not used the best wording when they posted, but I get their POV, and wanted to show them support.
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Post by juliet on Jul 20, 2014 17:02:08 GMT
Hi Jodster,
I understand what you are saying. I understand your pov and also Lynlam's and AB's. I do not agree with everything, but I understand the line of thinking.
Sometimes people's wording seems a bit arrogant, which makes me (as a citizen of a very small first world country) so, so small. Like we do not matter. Our history, experiences, our opinions, our good practices...they'll never be good enough. There'll always be superpowers breathing down our necks. Sometimes that gives a feeling of security, at other times it makes us feel really inferior.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 17:18:36 GMT
Juliet, I hope you didn't think my post saying that DC and AM were doing all they can at the EU was to make you feel inferior. That wasn't the intention at all. It was said to mean that they were supporting you as a country,in any way they can in your quest for justice for what's happened. I'm sorry if I gave the impression of any other meaning,it wasn't intentional.
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Post by greenlegume on Jul 20, 2014 17:23:56 GMT
Sometimes people's wording seems a bit arrogant, which makes me (as a citizen of a very small first world country) so, so small. Like we do not matter. Our history, experiences, our opinions, our good practices...they'll never be good enough. There'll always be superpowers breathing down our necks. Sometimes that gives a feeling of security, at other times it makes us feel really inferior. Please don't think all Americans are as assy as some of the comments that were made on this thread. I promise you, they're not.
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Post by juliet on Jul 20, 2014 17:24:02 GMT
I know, no worries!
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Post by juliet on Jul 20, 2014 17:25:14 GMT
Dotty too, no worries neighbour!
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 17:52:33 GMT
Juliet...
I totally understand what you're saying. I've been to your beautiful country, to Amsterdam and to the Zuiderzee, which I especially loved. You have much to be proud of. As a matter of fact, the original settlers of my hometown where I was born and raised were Dutch. Our main street has a nice looking windmill to celebrate that heritage.
I want to emphasize that I do not see your country as any less than ours. From my POV, you have just as much to be proud of.
Also, I want to add this. As US conservatives, we see lots of issues differently than the rest of you. I can't begin to tell you the number of times on this board that I have felt the condescension of citizens from other countries that have a more liberal POV. I think for that reason, a lot of conservatives get irritated and say things in a way that they shouldn't.
Just because I am extremely proud of the our history and my country does not mean I see your country as any less. I am sorry if at times that seems arrogant. Because of our enemies and our military strength, I feel that we need to show strong leadership, not to lord it over other countries, but to make the free world a safer place.
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Post by gar on Jul 20, 2014 17:55:43 GMT
Beautifully and fairly put as always Jody
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 18:10:48 GMT
As a gesture of solidarity with Juliet and the Netherlands, I have changed my profile pic to a picture I took of the windmill in my hometown. (I don't think I've ever changed it before.)
Again, I am so sorry for the citizens lost from the Netherlands and all over the world because of this horrible terrorist act.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,402
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 20, 2014 18:14:17 GMT
Nice gesture Jodster.
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Post by juliet on Jul 20, 2014 18:23:51 GMT
Love your windmill Jodster! Awesome that you visited our country too. I've visited a small part of the USA and had a fabulous time everytime I crossed the pond Let's all be proud of our countries and we'll be fine
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Post by pjaye on Jul 21, 2014 13:02:49 GMT
I don't agree that this was well said at all. Leadership for WHAT?? The "free world"is NOT yours to lead.
You absolutely fail to understand how your country and your president are seen by the rest of the world. The way *you* and people like you want your president to act...is exactly the way that gets you disliked by the rest of "the free world" and makes you a target for terrorism. The way the "rest of the world" wants your president to act is exactly the way he is currently acting. Not taking the lead when it is inherently not involving the USA, not big noting himself and his country and making a big deal out of what he can or will do - but by acting in an appropriate and dignified, restrained manner is what the rest of us want...and he's currently doing just that. I have not heard a single negative word about Obama in the Australian new/press. I have also not been involved in any conversations about this where a single bad thing has been said about your president.
You need to understand that he knows far more about politics on a global scale than all of you combined will ever learn in a lifetime.
Personally I'm grateful that he doesn't do of the things that the political crazies who post here want him to do...or we'd be on to "world war" 5 or 6 by now.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,402
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 21, 2014 14:30:15 GMT
I don't agree that this was well said at all. Leadership for WHAT?? The "free world"is NOT yours to lead. You absolutely fail to understand how your country and your president are seen by the rest of the world. The way *you* and people like you want your president to act...is exactly the way that gets you disliked by the rest of "the free world" and makes you a target for terrorism. The way the "rest of the world" wants your president to act is exactly the way he is currently acting. Not taking the lead when it is inherently not involving the USA, not big noting himself and his country and making a big deal out of what he can or will do - but by acting in an appropriate and dignified, restrained manner is what the rest of us want...and he's currently doing just that. I have not heard a single negative word about Obama in the Australian new/press. I have also not been involved in any conversations about this where a single bad thing has been said about your president. You need to understand that he knows far more about politics on a global scale than all of you combined will ever learn in a lifetime. Personally I'm grateful that he doesn't do of the things that the political crazies who post here want him to do...or we'd be on to "world war" 5 or 6 by now. Pjaye is right. I haven't so far seen a derogatory remark in the UK press about Obama regarding this situation either. His words have been thoughtful and well moderated. Anything else would be unacceptable under the circumstances.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,015
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jul 21, 2014 15:03:40 GMT
This is why he was elected twice despite what you read here.
The more I read about what is being done to the bodies, the more convinced I am that it may come to war. I don't understand how the rebels and Putin think that the world community is going to accept this - either the act itself or the flagrant disrespect, sheer incompetence and criminal conduct at the crash site. All this talk about world leaders, Vladimir Putin is certainly strong enough to bring a quick end to this catastrophe if he willed it.
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 21, 2014 15:34:14 GMT
This is why he was elected twice despite what you read here. The more I read about what is being done to the bodies, the more convinced I am that it may come to war. I don't understand how the rebels and Putin think that the world community is going to accept this - either the act itself or the flagrant disrespect, sheer incompetence and criminal conduct at the crash site. All this talk about world leaders, Vladimir Putin is certainly strong enough to bring a quick end to this catastrophe if he willed it. Pjaye is absolutely right and I totally agree with Annie's comments regarding the UK. Don't despair yet Sarah. These are Russian separatists in Ukraine, not actual Russians, so even Putin doesn't have absolute complete control over them. Ukraine is such a very, very complicated subject and has been for a very, very long time. Putin knows the world is expecting him to act to sort this so hopefully he's going to lean on the separatists very hard to get a good resolution to this awful situation and the separatists are going to listen. Dutch forensic experts and others gained access to the victims today and Putin made a brief statement to say that Russia will work to ensure that the political crisis in eastern Ukraine moves from the battlefield to the negotiating table so there is some hope and a little bit of movement in the crisis. Europe doesn't need this to come to war - especially mainland Europe - so let's do some positive thinking and/or praying that the politicians of the world can bring a successful conclusion to the problem.
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 16:31:51 GMT
Pjaye---
I disagree strongly with your opinion, for many reasons, which I am not going into, because there's no point. You and the others who agree with you can never understand my POV.
I appreciate your forthrightness though.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,402
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 21, 2014 17:02:00 GMT
According to the BBC 6pm news the two black boxes are to be handed over to the Malaysian authorities, and the trains containing some of the deceased are being allowed out of the area.
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Post by juliet on Jul 21, 2014 17:03:41 GMT
The good news today is that three of our experts have seen the bodies and the crash site. Investigation has begun and hopefully they'll be able to repatriate (is that the correct word?) the victims soon. One of the investigators complimented the Ukrainian rescue workers and locals for their search and help. I believe the majority of the bodies have been found now and hope that the rest of the investigation will bring some answers soon.
And to add to the others; haven't heard anyone speak in a negative way about Obama yet here in The Netherlands. But to be honest, a large portion of our population is quite fond of him (myself included).
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 21, 2014 17:46:35 GMT
Pjaye--- I disagree strongly with your opinion, for many reasons, which I am not going into, because there's no point. You and the others who agree with you can never understand my POV. I appreciate your forthrightness though. Jodster, I'm not sure it's a case of not understanding your point of view but more that you are perhaps misunderstanding what is being repeatedly said here. No-one is saying that President Obama should not lead the United States in this and show strong leadership, of course he should. What he should not do is speak for the rest of world as well and be solely responsible for formulating a plan to deal with this crisis with other nations being followers. You seem to be talking Internal politics in the main when giving your POV but this is about International politics! What you seem to be saying is the equivalent of me saying that our Prime Minister should be the one to lead and talk for the rest of the world! How you feel about how your politics or what your POTUS does in his own country is not really the issue in this discussion. Of course he should show the US strong leadership in this crisis but this is about an International issue! Speaking for everyone 'in the free world' is not part of his remit as POTUS. He is a very important world figure as are other Heads of Government - but he is not the only important world figure! Democracy and free speech exist in other countries apart from the USA and have done for a long, long time. Would you really be happy if your POTUS went in there internationally with 'strong leadership because of our military strength' and felt he could say anything at all on behalf of all nations and he caused an armed conflict? That would not make the world a safer place in any way shape or form!! I'm quite happy to say that I don't agree with everything you say but would fight for the right for you to say it and that we must agree to differ with this conversation. However, it would be nice if we were discussing exactly the same thing and I'm not too sure that we are at the moment! Honestly, to us outside the US it seems as though President Obama is being a very strong and wise statesman just doing his job as spokesman for the US without having to walk all over everyone else in the world!!
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wellway
Prolific Pea
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Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on Jul 21, 2014 18:01:05 GMT
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