BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 21, 2014 18:15:34 GMT
Oh that is good news! I missed the main evening news tonight on BBC.
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duopenotti
Junior Member
Posts: 70
Location: The Netherlands..the real Orange Country
Jun 30, 2014 15:02:10 GMT
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Post by duopenotti on Jul 21, 2014 18:23:52 GMT
I am watching the news right now, and just saw the train leave for Kharkov. Our experts checked the bodies and they are convinced most bodies will be identified with ease!
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 18:47:10 GMT
Barbara: There are people in both parties, not just conservatives, in the US that believe that because of the far-reaching geopolitical implications of what happened, that President Obama should react strongly to what happened. Here's a link from Fox (if you want another news source that explains my reasoning, there's always Google) in which a Republican congressman (and they even show a clip from Dem. Senator Boxer) explains why members from both parties feel there needs to be a strong response. clipThank you for your respectful response to what I said.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 18:48:09 GMT
Juliet - that at least is some comfort to the relatives,friends and the Netherlands. I'm also pleased that the Ukrainian Prime Minister has confirmed it should be the Dutch that should lead the investigation that is to follow.
Jodster I'm another one that agrees with what the others have said. I hope you understand that this is an opinion of how the President is on the International stage. It has nothing to do with how he governs America. For the first time in years the International stage has an American President that works diplomatically with other world leaders. He treats them as equals (which they are) and in doing so he earns the respect of many. It has nothing to do with his political beliefs. It's difficult to understand how you could disagree with the opinion voiced by people from other countries, when you are not a citizen of those countries. How could you possibly disagree with something that you have not experienced. It's how we see President Obama. It's how he comes across to us. When it comes to world peace and working as a team to achieve the same end it really doesn't matter whether you have the biggest military in the world, or that you are a small country in the middle of another continent. The end goal is the same...world peace. To achieved that by diplomatic discussion is far preferable than by the gun or I'm bigger than you,move aside and I'll take over type of attitude.Don't you agree? And if that small country felt that they needed help from the bigger country they would ask for it.In the same way that the bigger country has asked for help in the past.
It's insulting to belittle the leaders of other countries by their actions or their words. It was incredibly insulting to us when Mitt Romney suggested that the security at the London Olympic might be inadequate. What on earth did he base his assumption on,nothing it was just pure arrogance.That's just one example. It's incidence like these that the rest of the free world find insulting.It would have been incredibly condescending to the Netherlands and all the other countries if President Obama had stood there so soon after this tragedy and said "We will do this.....,We will do that......"
The rest of the free world has not seen that attitude from President Obama and it has nothing to do with his political beliefs,we're talking about the man here.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 19:20:37 GMT
Dotty... Like I said, I know where you're coming from. I just don't agree, plain and simple. And of course as a non-US citizen you would see Pres. Obama differently than I would, especially since you agree with his worldview. I do not, in any way, shape or form.
As far as the Romney thing: I don't think Gov. Romney meant to insult Britain. He was just trying to help because he had a lot of experience since he headed up the SLC games, and he didn't realize how it would come across. It happened because of inexperience on his part in regards to foreign policy, and I'm sure he learned from it. I absolutely love Mitt Romney for many, many reasons, most of which have to do with domestic policy. I would vote for him again in a heartbeat. And BTW, I really enjoyed watching the London games.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 19:38:55 GMT
There is a reason why those outside of the US felt we were arrogant and with good reason after reading some of the posts on this thread.
There was a time when the US was the leader of the free world but that was then and not today. Now our allies are our partners. That is the reality in a "global" world.
The President did the right thing. Expressed the American people's outrage at what happened. Offered our help if needed and is putting pressure on Putin to , as Senator Feinstein said, "man up" and rein in the rebels and have them open up the crash site to the officials that need to be there to do what they need to do.
This terrible incident did not directly involve the United States so we did not nor should we take the lead. To do otherwise would be insulting to the countries that are directly affected by this event. Our role at this point is to support our allies and offer whatever help they need. That is a mark of good leader and what our country should be doing and is doing.
Unfortunately, in a country with free speech, there are those in government who flap their gums to try and make brownie points with their "base" when maybe they should just shut up. Because donuts to dollars if they were in the same position as President Obama they would be doing exactly the same thing.
Now if that plane had been full of Americans then I would expect our President to do something entirely different. But that was not the case.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:00:57 GMT
Barbara: There are people in both parties, not just conservatives, in the US that believe that because of the far-reaching geopolitical implications of what happened, that President Obama should react strongly to what happened. Here's a link from Fox (if you want another news source that explains my reasoning, there's always Google) in which a Republican congressman (and they even show a clip from Dem. Senator Boxer) explains why members from both parties feel there needs to be a strong response. clipThank you for your respectful response to what I said. I listened to that link Jodie and quite honestly it really confirms what we've all been saying....we'll do this and we'll do that. It doesn't explain why a % of Americans thinks that the President was in the wrong in the way he responded to this crisis. I don't know who Mike Rogers is but it's blatantly obvious that he's using this as a dig at the President. " Here's an opportunity for him to rally the European Union and the support of Americans" rallying the European Union? for what? " Now's the time to step it up and we're going to re-engage with the missile defense system in Poland" Are you indeed? I think he needs to do a bit of homework regarding this because if he doesn't he's leading us all into world war 3. There was a very good reason why the Polish government did not agree to have them on their land in 2008. " we're going to conduct joint military operations in Poland" interesting! has he consulted Poland or the European Union about this?
The President or the White House doesn't invite him to meeting/unite the country instead of doing it on their own comments.
It's full of..... what America wants and what the President should do from the point of view of a Republican. Nothing to do with how President Obama conducts himself Internationally.
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mimima
Drama Llama
Stay Gold, Ponyboy
Posts: 5,073
Jun 25, 2014 19:25:50 GMT
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Post by mimima on Jul 21, 2014 20:03:33 GMT
Barbara: There are people in both parties, not just conservatives, in the US that believe that because of the far-reaching geopolitical implications of what happened, that President Obama should react strongly to what happened. I admit to being very skeptical that if President Obama had called a press conference and said something to the effect of, "As the leader of the US, I am convening an inquiry, sending troops to Ukraine, and doing thus and such" that the commentators on Fox News, and those who identify as conservative would applaud that. In fact, I'd bet money that they would say that Obama had an overinflated sense of self.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:10:35 GMT
That's fine Jodie. but as Barbara said earlier what is being discussed here has nothing to do with internal politics. It's how we,you know the others in this free world see the man and not the politician who's policies you don't agree with. Big difference. And I don't happen to agree with you about Mitt Romney either. It wasn't the first time we had hosted the summer Olympics which as it happens are far far bigger than the winter games so we knew what we were doing
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 21, 2014 20:37:17 GMT
Barbara: There are people in both parties, not just conservatives, in the US that believe that because of the far-reaching geopolitical implications of what happened, that President Obama should react strongly to what happened. Here's a link from Fox (if you want another news source that explains my reasoning, there's always Google) in which a Republican congressman (and they even show a clip from Dem. Senator Boxer) explains why members from both parties feel there needs to be a strong response. clipThank you for your respectful response to what I said. For info: Nothing I am about to say is intended to be snarky, I don't do snark or name calling in response to differing opinions. Just want to get that out of the way just in case you feel that anything to follow is a direct swipe at you. The following is just what I feel after listening to that Fox news. Jody, I've just spent some time on your Fox link and listened to some interesting things and am pretty sure now why we will never be able to reconcile opinions in this discussion. As a cultural thing the US approaches news in a very different way to most of the rest of the world and certainly the UK. Honestly, I'm not used to such a jingoistic way of reporting news. We tend to just report the absolute facts with nothing else getting in the way and reporting it from all sides fairly. It scared me silly listening to the clip called 'US credibility on the line in response to plane crash'!! I couldn't believe that a US politician would advocate arming the rest of Ukraine to fight against the rebels. What would the US do if that got out of hand and started spilling over into Europe? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want it to be their problem then. That's not a strong response, it's a foolish one in my opinion. The history of Ukraine is a very complicated one. I was there a couple of years ago before the problems blew out of all proportion. Very simply, some of the people we talked to didn't want to leave the Russian Federation because of the fall in living standards (a lot of people worked at the Russian nuclear base that was closed when Ukraine left the Federation and many, many jobs were lost causing hardship to a lot of people. Some people wanted to stay as an independent Ukraine. Arming them is just going to cause bloodshed and mayhem and totally wreck a beautiful country! And cause immense problems politically for the countries around them in Europe, including Russia. Surely a negotiated settlement is possible even if it takes a lot of time! I am very unsure whether the US should be floating the idea that you, with possibly a NATO contingent, go in there and discuss what they need in the way of arms. It's perhaps looks very simple seen from a distance of a minimum of 3,000 miles......and to be honest, things have changed and moved on since the Cold War. The USA didn't want to get involved in two recent things in the Middle East, why on earth would your politicians want to arm a country in Europe?! Then someone was talking about dragging Europe behind the US to solve this crisis and having to have a wake up call from the US. I was speechless!! I'm sorry but I heard some very extreme views - from my point of view anyway - said in very extreme ways and it would seem that we just can't discuss this properly because there's just no common ground or understanding. My personal opinion anyway. I can say that I do more understand your POV now but don't think we can find common ground. So perhaps we ought to agree to differ.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:41:45 GMT
Dotty... Like I said, I know where you're coming from. I just don't agree, plain and simple. And of course as a non-US citizen you would see Pres. Obama differently than I would, especially since you agree with his worldview. I do not, in any way, shape or form. jodster its comments like this that convince me that you are one who will find fault with everything President Obama does justified or not regardless of what you say.
I would also like to point out that I am a US citizen and I see the President differently than you do.
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Pinky Zebra
Full Member
I love Daryl Dixon. I want to lick his face and have his babies.
Posts: 169
Location: West Texas
Jun 26, 2014 5:37:40 GMT
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Post by Pinky Zebra on Jul 21, 2014 22:03:24 GMT
I don't think any conservative on this thread is suggesting that the free world line forms "right here" and Obama (or America) should be the line leader. There seems to be several different issues here and they are getting intermingled. Blurry transitions, etc.
I think Jody has relayed her sentiments respectfully. I agree with her. Having a different opinion doesn't necessarily make one a loon. It means there's a difference of opinion. There has been a lot of generalizations and assumptions. I'm listening to what you (general you) have to say. There have been several valid points made. Things that have made me really think about this.
In regards to Mitt Romney and the Olympics - - weren't security plans left on a train or bus or something like that? That's what caught my attention regarding the Olympics. Surely anyone would understand concern about security. Perhaps he handled his willingness to help in the wrong manner. I would hope his intentions were sincere.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 22:31:58 GMT
Barbara, thanks for taking the time to watch the link and trying to understand where I'm coming from. Mimi.... I have heard Charles K, who is normally pretty conservative, defend the president's actions 3 or 4 times on the evening news. I tend to remember about him more than the other pundits & commentators say because he's my favorite one. I can't remember what he was talking about because I have a terrible memory, but I remember that he defended him because it's a rare thing. I honestly don't know what the commentators would do in the situation you described. Dotty... Like I said, I don't perceive the other free countries of the world to be any less than us, and I've done my best to explain how I see this situation. Because of the differences in our worldviews, there's really not much I can add to what I've already said. And Krazy: Of course, we don't see our President the same. Our views are 180 degrees different on everything, or just about, anyway. And I know you don't believe me about what I said earlier. It's ok. Maybe I'll get the chance to prove that I was telling the truth...I hope so.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 22:36:03 GMT
Jody, I hardly ever agree with your political views, but I do want to say thank you for taking the time to listen to the views of others and disagreeing respectfully.
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 21, 2014 22:42:32 GMT
I don't think any conservative on this thread is suggesting that the free world line forms "right here" and Obama (or America) should be the line leader. There seems to be several different issues here and they are getting intermingled. Blurry transitions, etc. I think Jody has relayed her sentiments respectfully. I agree with her. Having a different opinion doesn't necessarily make one a loon. It means there's a difference of opinion. There has been a lot of generalizations and assumptions. I'm listening to what you (general you) have to say. There have been several valid points made. Things that have made me really think about this. In regards to Mitt Romney and the Olympics - - weren't security plans left on a train or bus or something like that? That's what caught my attention regarding the Olympics. Surely anyone would understand concern about security. Perhaps he handled his willingness to help in the wrong manner. I would hope his intentions were sincere. No, security plans weren't left on a train or a bus. Mitt Romney just made a fool of himself by making comments to newspaper reporters and NBC (when being interviewed about his wife's horse competing in the dressage) on things he didn't really know anything about and insulting the UK. Gaffes politicians don't usually make. He wasn't offering to help. Also, a Romney "adviser" was quoted as saying the Republican contender would be better placed than Barack Obama to sustain the transatlantic relationship with the UK because of a shared "Anglo-Saxon heritage.
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Pinky Zebra
Full Member
I love Daryl Dixon. I want to lick his face and have his babies.
Posts: 169
Location: West Texas
Jun 26, 2014 5:37:40 GMT
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Post by Pinky Zebra on Jul 21, 2014 22:46:00 GMT
I don't think any conservative on this thread is suggesting that the free world line forms "right here" and Obama (or America) should be the line leader. There seems to be several different issues here and they are getting intermingled. Blurry transitions, etc. I think Jody has relayed her sentiments respectfully. I agree with her. Having a different opinion doesn't necessarily make one a loon. It means there's a difference of opinion. There has been a lot of generalizations and assumptions. I'm listening to what you (general you) have to say. There have been several valid points made. Things that have made me really think about this. In regards to Mitt Romney and the Olympics - - weren't security plans left on a train or bus or something like that? That's what caught my attention regarding the Olympics. Surely anyone would understand concern about security. Perhaps he handled his willingness to help in the wrong manner. I would hope his intentions were sincere. No, security plans weren't left on a train or a bus. Mitt Romney just made a fool of himself by making comments to newspaper reporters and NBC (when being interviewed about his wife's horse competing in the dressage) on things he didn't really know anything about and insulting the UK. Gaffes politicians don't usually make. He wasn't offering to help. Also, a Romney "adviser" was quoted as saying the Republican contender would be better placed than Barack Obama to sustain the transatlantic relationship with the UK because of a shared "Anglo-Saxon heritage. I believe you are incorrect regarding the security information. Here's a link for you. ETA: Gaffes politicians don't usually make? Seriously? Come on... A gaffe is a gaffe is a gaffe. And they're made by them all.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 22:46:20 GMT
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 21, 2014 22:50:58 GMT
No, security plans weren't left on a train or a bus. Mitt Romney just made a fool of himself by making comments to newspaper reporters and NBC (when being interviewed about his wife's horse competing in the dressage) on things he didn't really know anything about and insulting the UK. Gaffes politicians don't usually make. He wasn't offering to help. Also, a Romney "adviser" was quoted as saying the Republican contender would be better placed than Barack Obama to sustain the transatlantic relationship with the UK because of a shared "Anglo-Saxon heritage. I believe you are incorrect regarding the security information. Here's a link for you. I stand corrected and I apologise. That incident happened in January 2012, I had forgotten about it and it didn't come up in searches on Romney that I did before replying.
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Post by traceys on Jul 21, 2014 23:12:54 GMT
I don't think any conservative on this thread is suggesting that the free world line forms "right here" and Obama (or America) should be the line leader. There seems to be several different issues here and they are getting intermingled. Blurry transitions, etc. I think Jody has relayed her sentiments respectfully. I agree with her. Having a different opinion doesn't necessarily make one a loon. It means there's a difference of opinion. There has been a lot of generalizations and assumptions. I'm listening to what you (general you) have to say. There have been several valid points made. Things that have made me really think about this. In regards to Mitt Romney and the Olympics - - weren't security plans left on a train or bus or something like that? That's what caught my attention regarding the Olympics. Surely anyone would understand concern about security. Perhaps he handled his willingness to help in the wrong manner. I would hope his intentions were sincere. No, security plans weren't left on a train or a bus. Mitt Romney just made a fool of himself by making comments to newspaper reporters and NBC (when being interviewed about his wife's horse competing in the dressage) on things he didn't really know anything about and insulting the UK. Gaffes politicians don't usually make. He wasn't offering to help. Also, a Romney "adviser" was quoted as saying the Republican contender would be better placed than Barack Obama to sustain the transatlantic relationship with the UK because of a shared "Anglo-Saxon heritage. And was that "advisor" not quoted anonymously, which means it could've been anyone, or completely made up?
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 21, 2014 23:28:28 GMT
No, security plans weren't left on a train or a bus. Mitt Romney just made a fool of himself by making comments to newspaper reporters and NBC (when being interviewed about his wife's horse competing in the dressage) on things he didn't really know anything about and insulting the UK. Gaffes politicians don't usually make. He wasn't offering to help. Also, a Romney "adviser" was quoted as saying the Republican contender would be better placed than Barack Obama to sustain the transatlantic relationship with the UK because of a shared "Anglo-Saxon heritage. And was that "advisor" not quoted anonymously, which means it could've been anyone, or completely made up? No idea about that as it originated in the US, the following is a quote about it from one of our most respected newspapers:- Would Joe Biden have launched a stinging attack if it had been made up? I haven't the foggiest idea.
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Post by traceys on Jul 21, 2014 23:36:13 GMT
And was that "advisor" not quoted anonymously, which means it could've been anyone, or completely made up? No idea about that as it originated in the US, the following is a quote about it from one of our most respected newspapers:- Would Joe Biden have launched a stinging attack if it had been made up? I haven't the foggiest idea. Would he? Of course. That's the job of the vp nominee. And painting political opponents of the president as racist has been commonplace.
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 21, 2014 23:58:22 GMT
No idea about that as it originated in the US, the following is a quote about it from one of our most respected newspapers:- Would Joe Biden have launched a stinging attack if it had been made up? I haven't the foggiest idea. Would he? Of course. That's the job of the vp nominee. And painting political opponents of the president as racist has been commonplace. Well, you know your own political scene best.
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Post by traceys on Jul 22, 2014 0:10:56 GMT
To be fair, I will say that he would have no idea if it were an accurate quote or not, but I doubt he would waste much time trying to verify it's authenticity. I will also say that quoting anonymous sources is not a one-sided game.
For me, however, a statement like that with no name attached is not something that I would want to rely on to be factual.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 0:12:48 GMT
I think you have to admit Traceys there are people who are not happy there is a black family in the White House and who are not the "staff".
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Post by lucyg on Jul 22, 2014 0:25:29 GMT
I don't remember the incident, but it doesn't sound as though the Romney campaign denied the remarks had been made, just that they tried to back-pedal away from them.
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Pinky Zebra
Full Member
I love Daryl Dixon. I want to lick his face and have his babies.
Posts: 169
Location: West Texas
Jun 26, 2014 5:37:40 GMT
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Post by Pinky Zebra on Jul 22, 2014 0:35:33 GMT
I think you have to admit Traceys there are people who are not happy there is a black family in the White House and who are not the "staff". Wow. That left me speechless. I literally did this when I read that. It's going to always come down to that, isn't it? I remember election night and being proud of the milestone this country achieved by electing a black man. But the color of his skin has nothing to do with how I, or everyone else I know, view his presidency. Unbelievable.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 0:41:32 GMT
Why are you so shocked Pinky? It's a true statement. But note I did say some people not all people. You would have to be very naive to think there weren't some folks who don't like the idea of a black man in the White House. Sad but true.
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 0:45:05 GMT
I have no patience for the 'race card' argument. It's a weapon for the weak who have nothing of real substance to offer.
L
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 0:49:25 GMT
Yes, that did happen a whole 7 months before the opening of the Olympics. That wasn't what Mitt Romney was referring to when he was arrogant enough to comment though.He told NBC News he saw “a few things that were disconcerting” about London’s preparations. “The stories about the private security firm not having enough people, supposed strike of immigration and customs officials, that obviously is not something which is encouraging,” he said. There was a concern about the number of security staff that were fully trained at that particular time and there was suggestion that there might be a strike by the border control officers but it wasn't up to him to voice his opinion about them. You just don't do that when you're in his position and visiting another country.
It wasn't the only "gaffe" that he made either. He also raised eyebrows by referring to Ed Miliband of the opposition party with the American-style honorific “Mr Leader” and saying that he had enjoyed viewing Olympic volleyball courts from “the backside of Downing Street”. The there's the one he also said outside 10 Downing Street that he had spoken to the head of MI6 about the situation in war-torn Syria, raising suggestions that he had broken with convention by disclosing a secret briefing. That really is a diplomatic "gaffe" that is! No one in his position at the time,running for the Presidency of the USA should disclose meetings with the Foreign Intelligence of another country. It is also extremely rare for head of MI6 to share details about British intelligence with any politician who is not a head of state. One of his " advisers" also said he'd met the head of MI5 during a previous visit to London the previous year, and that he had given them advice on defending the Olympics against terrorism!! He is also understood to have met Sir Peter Ricketts, the-then head of the National Security Council. A Home Office spokesman wouldn't confirm that these meeting had taken place.
Yes,there were plenty of "gaffes" but they had nothing to do with any papers that were left on a train!
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Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 20:13:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 0:51:42 GMT
I think you have to admit Traceys there are people who are not happy there is a black family in the White House and who are not the "staff". That has nothing to do with this thread and was not necessary to bring it into it.
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