|
Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Mar 24, 2016 11:14:16 GMT
My question is this - would you have signed up another child for sleepaway camp, and forked over a couple of hundred dollars to pay for that child's camp fee, with the expectation of being paid back, on the possible word of a 13 year old, without having spoken to the child's parent about any of this? And if you were in my shoes, would you think this was strange? Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but it feels like a very aggressive sort of proselytizing/conversion attempt to me. What would you do? Would you feel obligated to pay this woman back? If your family doesn't share their beliefs, would you let your very impressionable young teen attend church with them again? My gut feeling is that after this very odd email, there is no way I would let her go even if the dates worked for us. Please go with your gut. There is not a chance I would let my kid go to a sleep-away camp in this scenario. And if she already had your email, why didn't she email you all the information about the camp weeks ago, so that YOU could make the decision as to whether your child was going to go?
|
|
peaname
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,389
Aug 16, 2014 23:15:53 GMT
|
Post by peaname on Mar 24, 2016 11:26:53 GMT
That would be a huge red flag for me and my child would definitely not be attending the camp.
|
|
tduby1
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,979
Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
|
Post by tduby1 on Mar 24, 2016 11:43:59 GMT
I think your response was perfect. I would not pay it, and honestly I was wondering reading your post if protheletizing was the mothers intent, so I don't think you're overreacting. I have mentioned the religion I grew up in here before and I agree. It seems like a strong effort to get your daughter to camp and "convert" her.
It would have been just as easy for the mom to email you asking for a firm yes before paying as it was to email you after paying and guilt you into a yes- and I feel that is exactly what she was doing.
|
|
tduby1
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,979
Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
|
Post by tduby1 on Mar 24, 2016 11:47:16 GMT
Sorry I wasn't clear - mom "signed her up" in the sense that she put her name on the list and paid the deposit to hold her spot. All the paperwork she sent me was all the stuff a parent has to do - permission, medical stuff, etc. I followed the link she sent (and frankly, the fact that she sent one means that she knows I don't know jack about this camp) and the activities include, among other things, "small group time spent exploring our faith and the power of prayer." Which is great if your child already belongs to said faith, but it's going to be really uncomfortable for a young teen who identifies as atheist IMO. Plus - outdoor activity camp in south Texas in July. This is a child who has to be moved out the door with a cattle prod to walk the dog around the block if it's more than 80 degrees. Even if there wasn't a hint of religion about it, I know my daughter, and she would hate every minute of this camp. Does the other mother know your daughter identifies as an atheist? If so, this convinces me this was a desperate act to separate your daughter from you for a few days and try to "save her", given my background in religion.
|
|
Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
|
Post by Rainbow on Mar 24, 2016 11:48:24 GMT
My youngest daughter is 13, and has attended church a couple of times with a close friend (as a cultural experience since we do not share their beliefs - generally after a sleepover). Friend mentioned that my DD could attend the church's summer camp with her. DD asked me about it, and I said if she brought me more information (like dates, cost, location, etc.) we could discuss it. I hadn't thought about it since then. Tonight I received an email out of the blue from friend's mom, saying that she was so excited DD could attend camp with them, and that because registration closes next week, she had gone ahead and paid DD's fee and that I could just pay her back. All I need to do is fill out these forms and send them to her by the 28th. She said they would certainly make sure DD had a ride if she wanted to go. I talked with DD, and she says she never told the mom she definitely could go - that she repeated what I said about being able to discuss it. Now, I know my daughter, and how much of a pleaser she is, and she very well could have given the impression that I had definitely said yes if she thought that's what her friend and/or the friend's mom wanted to hear. I spoke with her about being very clear in situations like this. I emailed the mom back and very politely explained the miscommunication, and told her that because we did not yet know our travel plans for this summer, I was not comfortable paying for a camp my child might not be able to attend. I said I hoped she would be able to get a refund for the fee she had paid. My question is this - would you have signed up another child for sleepaway camp, and forked over a couple of hundred dollars to pay for that child's camp fee, with the expectation of being paid back, on the possible word of a 13 year old, without having spoken to the child's parent about any of this? And if you were in my shoes, would you think this was strange? Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but it feels like a very aggressive sort of proselytizing/conversion attempt to me. What would you do? Would you feel obligated to pay this woman back? If your family doesn't share their beliefs, would you let your very impressionable young teen attend church with them again? My gut feeling is that after this very odd email, there is no way I would let her go even if the dates worked for us. You should have just said no.
|
|
|
Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Mar 24, 2016 11:50:30 GMT
Seems a little too enthusiastic to get your DD involved. Yes, I agree. I remember discussions in the Episcopal church about offering pre-school and inviting non-church kids to youth groups and VBS as a way to get the kids involved in hopes that would bring the parents in. And the Episcopal church is not one that promotes proselytizing. In fact, if you try to get an Episcopal to talk publicly about their faith, you might find that a very short conversation. So if churches like that consider growing their church membership by reaching parents through their children, then you can be sure the more proselytizing churches do. I guess I don't get the whole "mom has a secret agenda" thing. It's church,the agenda isn't a secret. Of course they asked if she was saved and of course they want her baptized. ... I get that many here hate, don't like, or have had bad experiences with Christianity and Christians, but I don't understand how someone could go into a Christian environment and then get upset that Christians are doing what the Bible tells them to do. You are painting Christianity with your personal beliefs. I was a member of both the Lutheran and Episcopal churches earlier in my life and neither one espouses the concept of being "saved." Not all Christian churches do. And, in full disclosure, I am no longer religious.
|
|
tduby1
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,979
Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
|
Post by tduby1 on Mar 24, 2016 11:53:08 GMT
I guess I don't get the whole "mom has a secret agenda" thing. It's church,the agenda isn't a secret. Of course they asked if she was saved and of course they want her baptized. Because the email did not say, "We understand your daughter is unsaved and in an effort to save her we have signed her up for sleep away camp and fronted the deposit for you."
Instead, the other mother crafted the email so the OP would think there was some misunderstanding that led to the events.
I do not for one second believe there was any such misunderstanding because a rational person would have contacted the OP just as easily BEFORE registering her, as she did immediately after registering her.
|
|
purplebee
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,728
Jun 27, 2014 20:37:34 GMT
|
Post by purplebee on Mar 24, 2016 12:04:33 GMT
I agree with some previous posters that not all Christian religions proselytize, but the evangelical denominations definitely do, and it is a very important part of their religion.
I see this as a definite attempt to "recruit" your 13 yo. There is no way that I would have made any assumptions regarding any overnight stay for a young teen, much less an entire week. The Mom was trying to seal the deal before discussing it with you.
|
|
|
Post by anonrefugee on Mar 24, 2016 12:31:19 GMT
Whether it was church camp, or stripper camp, the parent should have confirmed with you beforehand. Even if the young teen said she had approval. A quick text is all it takes to verify.
But in the end, who is harmed here? She made the mistake and is possibly out the deposit, she will learn a lesson. I wouldn't get worked up over it, unless I wanted to create a barrier between me and the other parent.
If this caused you to feel there are larger intentions, then she did you a favor. Now you know and can respond to protect your DD- and prep DD too.
However I wouldn't take her sending a link as evidence she knows you are unaware. People send links all the time if they're trying to simplify communication or actions needed by receiver. I sent one to a fellow board never yesterday because she forgot to register for an event and I know she's probably checking email via mobile.
|
|
|
Post by anonrefugee on Mar 24, 2016 12:43:19 GMT
A little aside: I grew up in an active church family, but we kids never attended church summer camps. My parents disliked the heightened emotions, and teen dating, that took occurred.
Instead we attended camps for our activities/ sports and service organizations.
I share that view now, and definitely wouldn't let my sons attend a camp for a cause or religion we don't support.
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Mar 24, 2016 12:47:50 GMT
Sorry I wasn't clear - mom "signed her up" in the sense that she put her name on the list and paid the deposit to hold her spot. All the paperwork she sent me was all the stuff a parent has to do - permission, medical stuff, etc. I followed the link she sent (and frankly, the fact that she sent one means that she knows I don't know jack about this camp) and the activities include, among other things, "small group time spent exploring our faith and the power of prayer." Which is great if your child already belongs to said faith, but it's going to be really uncomfortable for a young teen who identifies as atheist IMO. Plus - outdoor activity camp in south Texas in July. This is a child who has to be moved out the door with a cattle prod to walk the dog around the block if it's more than 80 degrees. Even if there wasn't a hint of religion about it, I know my daughter, and she would hate every minute of this camp. Does the other mother know your daughter identifies as an atheist? If so, this convinces me this was a desperate act to separate your daughter from you for a few days and try to "save her", given my background in religion. I don't know. I know she knows we don't attend church.
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Mar 24, 2016 12:51:24 GMT
Whether it was church camp, or stripper camp, the parent should have confirmed with you beforehand. Even if the young teen said she had approval. A quick text is all it takes to verify. But in the end, who is harmed here? She made the mistake and is possibly out the deposit, she will learn a lesson. I wouldn't get worked up over it, unless I wanted to create a barrier between me and the other parent. If this caused you to feel there are larger intentions, then she did you a favor. Now you know and can respond to protect your DD- and prep DD too. However I wouldn't take her sending a link as evidence she knows you are unaware. People send links all the time if they're trying to simplify communication or actions needed by receiver. I sent one to a fellow board never yesterday because she forgot to register for an event and I know she's probably checking email via mobile. I have not been worked up over it as far as the parent knows - I was apologetic and polite in the email to her, and gave not knowing our travel schedule as the reason for us being unable to commit DD to this camp. I didn't say anything about being concerned about what she may be exposed to, nor did I accuse the mom of trying to "recruit" her - because obviously I'd prefer not to create a barrier between me an the other parent. If she presses further, I will have to be more clear with her about where I stand. For now, my plan is that we will always have other plans if/when DD is invited to their church.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 4, 2024 0:14:07 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2016 13:01:28 GMT
I think you handled it very well. I am a Christian who would never dream of trying to trick anyone into a week of camp or anything for that matter. I just don't think that is God's way. I hope she was just really wanting your daughter to go as a companion for her daughter but I completely see how it looks like she may have been trying to get your daughter there for religious reasons.
|
|
|
Post by ktdoesntscrap on Mar 24, 2016 13:14:12 GMT
*shrug* maybe it is overreacting, I don't know. It was something in the tone of the email that felt like, "We will do absolutely anything to make sure your unchurched daughter can attend our Christian camp!" This also stems from things DD has said when she comes home from the church services - they've been asking her already if she's accepted Jesus as her lord and savior, and offered to baptize her "when she is ready." She's been there twice. Plus she was already baptized, TYVM, and just because her mother's become a heathen since then doesn't mean she needs a do-over. As a fellow heathen... I would feel the same way. My daughter has friends who try to get her to go to church with them all the time. (we don't do Saturday sleep overs with them)
|
|
caro
Drama Llama
Refupea 1130
Posts: 5,222
Jun 26, 2014 14:10:36 GMT
|
Post by caro on Mar 24, 2016 13:17:29 GMT
No more texts or emails. I think you need to have a phone or face to face convo to say you did not give your approval for this camp.
|
|
MsKnit
Pearl Clutcher
RefuPea #1406
Posts: 2,648
Jun 26, 2014 19:06:42 GMT
|
Post by MsKnit on Mar 24, 2016 13:26:58 GMT
*shrug* maybe it is overreacting, I don't know. It was something in the tone of the email that felt like, "We will do absolutely anything to make sure your unchurched daughter can attend our Christian camp!" This also stems from things DD has said when she comes home from the church services - they've been asking her already if she's accepted Jesus as her lord and savior, and offered to baptize her "when she is ready." She's been there twice. Plus she was already baptized, TYVM, and just because her mother's become a heathen since then doesn't mean she needs a do-over. I don't think you are overreacting. I'm not religious due to upbringing or despite my upbringing. And, I will admit I am hyper sensitive over this. However, I think you did well allowing your child to experience others' beliefs. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with my child exploring religion. I can barely get him to go see his grandfather sing in his church choir. This mom has shown you her agenda. You are justified in your concern.
|
|
Peamac
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea # 418
Posts: 4,218
Jun 26, 2014 0:09:18 GMT
|
Post by Peamac on Mar 24, 2016 13:31:56 GMT
Friend's mom should be able to transfer the fee to another camper from the church and get paid back that way, or consider it a donation towards a camper who doesn't have enough funds to go.
No, I would not have registered someone else's child for anything without the parent's permission (and I have an extensive history with church camps all throughout my life).
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 4, 2024 0:14:07 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2016 15:40:40 GMT
Wow is that brazen! Really out of line and I don't blame you for being pissed. I think you handled it well.
|
|
|
Post by shaniam on Mar 24, 2016 15:45:11 GMT
I would never have paid for someone else's child to attend something unless I knew the family really well and a parent was asking me to because they weren't going to make the cut off. Very few families would I even do that for. I have been burned too many times with the "ill pay you later". I don't mind helping someone out but don't appreciate being used.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 4, 2024 0:14:07 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2016 16:05:59 GMT
*shrug* maybe it is overreacting, I don't know. It was something in the tone of the email that felt like, "We will do absolutely anything to make sure your unchurched daughter can attend our Christian camp!" This also stems from things DD has said when she comes home from the church services - they've been asking her already if she's accepted Jesus as her lord and savior, and offered to baptize her "when she is ready." She's been there twice. Plus she was already baptized, TYVM, and just because her mother's become a heathen since then doesn't mean she needs a do-over. That was exactly the feeling I got reading about the email....
|
|
|
Post by peasapie on Mar 24, 2016 16:09:19 GMT
Never. That seems almost controlling. Certainly inappropriate.
|
|
|
Post by utmr on Mar 24, 2016 16:40:01 GMT
I agree. The other mom is out of line and definitely knew what she was doing. She is going to "save" your child and if that means bullying you or lying to you, well, the end justifies the means.
This is Texas, and that sort of behavior happens. Definitely not as much in urban areas as places like Deep East Texas, but it does happen.
I think your response was great. Diplomatic, and travel plans are harder to argue with.
Odd that she times this for Easter week, eh?
I'd approach this like any other objectionable behavior from a playmates parent. Encourage the kids to hang out at your house where you can control the environment. If mom continues to push the religion on your DD, you can step up your resistance.
|
|
|
Post by anniefb on Mar 24, 2016 16:42:32 GMT
The other mom way over-stepped. She should have never paid any money without talking with you first.
|
|
|
Post by debmast on Mar 24, 2016 16:46:37 GMT
Even living the religion stuff out of it, who signs someone else's kid up for a camp and pays a deposit without ever once evening talking to the other child's parents about it? That seems odd to me in and of itself!
|
|
|
Post by auntkelly on Mar 24, 2016 17:36:10 GMT
I think you handled the situation well. Based on my similar experience w/ a pushy mom, I'm not so sure that the mom was trying to convert your daughter as much as she was trying to ensure that her daughter had her best friend at her side at camp.
When my daughter was in 7th grade her best friend's mom mentioned that her daughter was going to soccer camp and my daughter should sign up too. I told her I'd look into it and talk to my husband about it. A few days' later, before I'd even mentioned the camp to my husband my daughter came home w/ a soccer camp application that had been completed by her friend's mom. There was a sticky note on it stating I just needed to sign the form and placa the form and a deposit check in the stamped envelop the friend's mom had provided.
In the end, we decided the camp would be a great experience for our daughter, and ended up sending her to the camp. However, we didn't appreciate the pressure the other mom put on us.
The girls are 21 now and go to different colleges and they each have plenty of friends, but when they do come home at the same time, the mother always plans all kinds of activities for them to do together.
At times, over the years, I really resented the other mother's meddling and I spoke up several times and said "I'm not paying for this" or "we have other plans that weekend so my daughter can't do what you have planned." However, in the end, I realized that the girl with the pushy mom really was a great girl and a good and loyal friend to my daughter, so I let some things go. I learned to pick and choose my battles.
It sounds like you are handing things well w/ your daughter's friend's pushy mother. Again, I wouldn't necessarily assume she is trying to push religion on your daughter, but if it becomes clear at some point that she is trying to convert your daughter, you might have to speak up.
|
|
pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
|
Post by pudgygroundhog on Mar 24, 2016 18:15:01 GMT
I agree with the majority that it's odd the mom was so pushy about signing up another kid for camp and the religious implications as well. I'm also an atheist and my daughter is younger than yours (8), but I wouldn't be comfortable sending her to a sleepaway camp that might seem intent upon "saving" her.
Going to church or attending a youth group event is one thing, but sleepaway camp that you didn't sign up for is a whole other issue. We have good friends that are religious and our daughter is good friends with their kids. If Norah wanted to go to church with them or attend some event, I would be fine with it because I trust the family and know that there would be zero pressure on my daughter. But a family I didn't know that seemed to be pursuing my kid in interest of baptizing/"saving" her - well, that would be a big fat NO.
|
|
|
Post by Tamhugh on Mar 24, 2016 18:32:34 GMT
My youngest daughter is 13, and has attended church a couple of times with a close friend (as a cultural experience since we do not share their beliefs - generally after a sleepover). Friend mentioned that my DD could attend the church's summer camp with her. DD asked me about it, and I said if she brought me more information (like dates, cost, location, etc.) we could discuss it. I hadn't thought about it since then. Tonight I received an email out of the blue from friend's mom, saying that she was so excited DD could attend camp with them, and that because registration closes next week, she had gone ahead and paid DD's fee and that I could just pay her back. All I need to do is fill out these forms and send them to her by the 28th. She said they would certainly make sure DD had a ride if she wanted to go. I talked with DD, and she says she never told the mom she definitely could go - that she repeated what I said about being able to discuss it. Now, I know my daughter, and how much of a pleaser she is, and she very well could have given the impression that I had definitely said yes if she thought that's what her friend and/or the friend's mom wanted to hear. I spoke with her about being very clear in situations like this. I emailed the mom back and very politely explained the miscommunication, and told her that because we did not yet know our travel plans for this summer, I was not comfortable paying for a camp my child might not be able to attend. I said I hoped she would be able to get a refund for the fee she had paid. My question is this - would you have signed up another child for sleepaway camp, and forked over a couple of hundred dollars to pay for that child's camp fee, with the expectation of being paid back, on the possible word of a 13 year old, without having spoken to the child's parent about any of this? And if you were in my shoes, would you think this was strange? Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but it feels like a very aggressive sort of proselytizing/conversion attempt to me. What would you do? Would you feel obligated to pay this woman back? If your family doesn't share their beliefs, would you let your very impressionable young teen attend church with them again? My gut feeling is that after this very odd email, there is no way I would let her go even if the dates worked for us. In the woman's shoes, I would have called you and told you of the deadline. I would not have just gone ahead and paid it. Now, if it was my best friend of many decades and we had talked about her child going, I might go ahead and pay. No...actually I think I would be making a phone call first.
I think your highlighted reaction is a bit much. Aggressive? Proselytizing? Step back and take a deep breath.
At 13, if your daughter is interested in going to church with her friend, I would let her. It isn't like they are feeding her chicken blood or something. For the girls, it is probably more about being with their friend than anything else.
And no...I would not be paying her back. For one thing, I cannot afford it. But while it was a kind thought to ensure your dd could be at the same session as her dd, the action was not authorized.
We raised our kids in an ELCA church. Growing up, we encouraged them to attend camps and youth groups with their friends of other denominations so that they would have a good background to establish their own beliefs. Both boys spent most of their time at camps with an evangelical background. Despite that, my first reaction to the OP was also that I would be afraid it was a major proselytizing thing. Interestingly enough, older DS got a lot out of the camps and returned for a few years. Younger DS will tell you now that it was what led him on his path to being an atheist.
|
|
|
Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Mar 24, 2016 19:15:56 GMT
A little aside: I grew up in an active church family, but we kids never attended church summer camps. My parents disliked the heightened emotions, and teen dating, that took occurred. I was an adult chaperone for several years for a YMCA camp. Adult staff took turns at night doing what they called "purple patrol" --- as in girls are pink, boys are blue, and pink + blue = purple. Get it?
|
|
julieb
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,845
Jul 3, 2014 16:02:54 GMT
|
Post by julieb on Mar 24, 2016 21:06:52 GMT
I would never register and pay for another child to attend anything without having written confirmation of their intention to attend. (Actually, to be honest, I would not register and pay for anyone else's kid under any circumstances because I have been burned before by people who at the last minute decide not to attend and never paid me back. I have learned that it's best that everyone make their own arrangements and pay for things themselves since I am not an ATM.) I would feel absolutely no obligation to pay this woman money when i as the parent did not commit to my child attending. If, however, I found out that my child DID tell the woman that she would be attending, then my kid would be paying the woman back.
Even if OP's dd did tell this women she would like to go, she overstepped by paying for it. I wouldn't make my child pay it back when she did nothing wrong.
|
|
|
Post by refugeepea on Mar 24, 2016 22:21:32 GMT
because her mother's become a heathen since then doesn't mean she needs a do-over. I keep having flashbacks of the movie Saved as I read this thread! She could be born again! Who cares if she's been baptized? I got a letter in the mail saying my son is turning eight this year and this is what we need to do to get him ready for baptism. NOT, hey do you want your kid baptized? We aren't sure since you haven't attended on a consistent basis and almost non-existent now since he was born. Or any acknowledgment that he has special needs and baptism (total immersion in water, plugging, his nose and dipping him backwards) is not an easy thing. I texted the number on the letter and said I don't want my son *Joe* baptized. I did get a response back saying ok, thanks. I hope they leave me alone.
|
|