Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:28:19 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2016 22:31:55 GMT
link
The attached article, How Bernie can Win(But He is not Going to Like it) by Bill Scher, gives a pretty good description on why older and nonwhite voters don't trust Sanders. This paragraph pretty much sums it up for me why this liberal won't be supporting Sanders if he is the Democratic nominee: " The older voters also remember the Ronald Reagan years, when Democrats were in the political wilderness and Bill Clinton resuscitated the party by shedding liberal positions that had become dead weight. In turn, they are more accepting of less ambitious, pragmatic policy goals, and the occasional use of "triangulation" in pursuit of less ideological swing voters. Carrying more memories of political disappointment, older voters are in general less interested in ideological perfection." And: " Hillary's older base is also impressed with her on foreign policy, according to exit polls, despite Bernie's repeated reminders of her Iraq war resolution vote." " But if he wants more voters to trust in an international crisis, he needs to explain what he would do in an international crisis, not just what he wants others to do." Like I said I agree with this article and I'm also glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. But I think the changes of Sanders becoming less ambitious and more pragmatic are as about as good as Ted Cruz moving from the far right to closer to the center. Nil to none in both cases.
|
|
|
Post by sasha on Apr 12, 2016 23:10:38 GMT
Interesting. With age, perhaps you realize there are no free lunches.
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Apr 12, 2016 23:18:04 GMT
Interesting. With age, perhaps you realize there are no free lunches. My mom and I were just talking about this very thing-and we both said the exact same thing-free lunch and all.
|
|
|
Post by jenis40 on Apr 12, 2016 23:26:57 GMT
I participated in the Washington state caucus and noted the very same thing. While there were a few exceptions, it broke pretty much along the age line of 30ish. It was pretty equal along gender lines though.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:28:19 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2016 23:31:17 GMT
There has to be a benefit to growing old. Maybe it's as simple as the ability of recognizing a pipe dream when you see it.
Don't get me wrong, as a bleeding heart liberal, I don't disagree with what he is saying in principal. But as an old sometime grouchy realist I know it ain't happening.
|
|
|
Post by terri on Apr 12, 2016 23:46:10 GMT
The flaw in this to me is that independent voters do not trust Clinton and are not voting for her, and even her support among voters over 30 has proven to be regional. That is why polling has continuously showed Sanders beating any Republican candidate and Clinton much more narrowly beating some but not all. If it comes down to it, I think most Clinton supporters would vote for Sanders but the reverse is not true. So while I think Clinton will likely win the Democratic primary, I really don't know if she can win the general election. I think Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot with her as their candidate.
|
|
peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,885
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
|
Post by peabay on Apr 13, 2016 0:12:36 GMT
I fall right into that demographic - I have no idea how he's going to pay for any of the things he promises, without raising my already high taxes. I think he seems like a genuine guy, but I believe most of his promises are pipe dreams.
|
|
|
Post by epeanymous on Apr 13, 2016 0:15:17 GMT
I was at a Washington caucus, and ours broke 5-1 for Sanders without notable generational splits. That seems to have been unusual, though.
The wisdom of the old may be one explanation, but what the younger generation is staring down may be another. The market my students are entering is worse than it was for their field twenty or thirty years ago, but the cost of their education has far outpaced inflation.
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Apr 13, 2016 0:15:57 GMT
I fall right into that demographic - I have no idea how he's going to pay for any of the things he promises, without raising my already high taxes. I think he seems like a genuine guy, but I believe most of his promises are pipe dreams. That is exactly how I feel.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:28:19 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 0:33:52 GMT
I will not be voting for Sanders if is the nominee. I think on one level he knows that if he is elected President there is not a snowball chance in hell he will be able to enact any of what he is advocating. And that bugs me that he is not being somewhat more honest with his supporters. Especially since he wasn't going to run one of "those type" of campaigns.
The other thing I will be watching if he should become the nominee is how is he going to get enough money to go up against a very well financed Republican opponent?
Will his small doners be able to carry them through and my guess is no. Then what does he do?
|
|
amom23
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,403
Jun 27, 2014 12:39:18 GMT
|
Post by amom23 on Apr 13, 2016 1:24:05 GMT
The flaw in this to me is that independent voters do not trust Clinton and are not voting for her, and even her support among voters over 30 has proven to be regional. That is why polling has continuously showed Sanders beating any Republican candidate and Clinton much more narrowly beating some but not all. If it comes down to it, I think most Clinton supporters would vote for Sanders but the reverse is not true. So while I think Clinton will likely win the Democratic primary, I really don't know if she can win the general election. I think Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot with her as their candidate. I disagree with your analogy. Sure Sanders supporters will be disappointed if he does not become the nominee, but ultimately if someone is a true liberal/democrat there is no way their loyalty will swing over to the republican side of the fence. A true democrat will do what it takes to keep a conservative republican out of the white house.
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Apr 13, 2016 1:32:36 GMT
The flaw in this to me is that independent voters do not trust Clinton and are not voting for her, and even her support among voters over 30 has proven to be regional. That is why polling has continuously showed Sanders beating any Republican candidate and Clinton much more narrowly beating some but not all. If it comes down to it, I think most Clinton supporters would vote for Sanders but the reverse is not true. So while I think Clinton will likely win the Democratic primary, I really don't know if she can win the general election. I think Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot with her as their candidate. I disagree with your analogy. Sure Sanders supporters will be disappointed if he does not become the nominee, but ultimately if someone is a true liberal/democrat there is no way their loyalty will swing over to the republican side of the fence. A true democrat will do what it takes to keep a conservative republican out of the white house. Maybe, but younger voters are much less likely to identify themselves by party affiliation or worry about being a "true" Democrat. They're also much less likely to vote if they're not excited about a candidate. Older Hilary supporters may turn out for Bernie, but younger Bernie supporters might just stay home rather than cast a vote for Hilary. For me, as a Bernie supporter well over 30, I've reached an age where I refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils just because one of them has a D after her name. I don't like, trust or respect Hilary, and if she is the nominee, I will either stay home or vote for a third party candidate.
|
|
|
Post by birukitty on Apr 13, 2016 2:05:09 GMT
I completely disagree with this generality. I'll be 56 at the end of this month. I'm a huge Bernie supporter as you all know. My husband is 50 and he is too. I know several adults my age who are. The person we don't trust is Hillary. She has lied over and over and over again. I can't trust a thing she says anymore because she will say anything to get elected. She is a huge disappoint to me. I had high hopes for voting for her when all of this began when she announced her candidacy. But the more I read about and saw her the more I realized what a liar and how untrustworthy she is. It goes beyond how all candidates lie.
She's taken money from Monsanto and for me that is HUGE. I will not vote for her because I cannot do that on moral grounds. Not even if she wins the democratic ticket. Before she did that I could, but not now. I will vote, but it will be for an independent probably someone for the Green party on election day if Hillary wins the democratic ticket.
I'm going to a dinner get together on Sunday for Bernie supporters in my area. I'll let you know how many people there are my age or if I'm the only one amongst a ton of young people. Although that really will prove nothing. It's only one dinner at a person's house.
Debbie in MD.
|
|
huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,232
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
|
Post by huskergal on Apr 13, 2016 2:59:24 GMT
I am also a 50 something Bernie supporter. We are being force fed Hillary Clinton. I want to like her. I can't. I don't believe anything she says. The only thing she has going for her is experience, but with that experience comes lots and lots of baggage. Scandalous baggage.
I am not voting for Bernie for a free lunch. I don't think his stuff would make it out of Congress, but if you look at his plan, he explains how his policies would be funded. The amount of wealth that is being hidden so the wealthy don't have to pay taxes is ridiculous. Yet, people keep blaming those on welfare. Welfare recipients are not where the money is going.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:28:19 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 10:19:32 GMT
I am 52 and will NOT vote for Hillary if she is the nominee. I'm old enough to know with her as President means that nothing changes. All the problems we currently have will stay the same or get bigger. Bernie at least is attempting to do something. Sure, he may not be able to do much for free college tuition or free universal healthcare, but at least he has ideas. I've researched a lot these past few months, and actually, quite a few of his ideas are pretty sound. And I don't believe for a moment that most of his younger supporters believe that he will magically pull free tuition out of his arse. Let's give them some credit. I've got a feeling they know more about the process than I do, and know that magic fairy dust won't work. Personally, I love that young people have come out in waves to support him. Up to this year, I thought most young people were more interested in their phones than what our government is doing.
|
|
SabrinaP
Pearl Clutcher
Busy Teacher Pea
Posts: 4,406
Location: Dallas Texas
Jun 26, 2014 12:16:22 GMT
|
Post by SabrinaP on Apr 13, 2016 11:45:52 GMT
There has to be a benefit to growing old. Maybe it's as simple as the ability of recognizing a pipe dream when you see it. Don't get me wrong, as a bleeding heart liberal, I don't disagree with what he is saying in principal. But as an old sometime grouchy realist I know it ain't happening. This is me exactly! No way we can afford all Bernie's desires. We have to be more middle of the road and selective in reality.
|
|
|
Post by dulcemama on Apr 13, 2016 12:38:29 GMT
Interesting. With age, perhaps you realize there are no free lunches. My mom and I were just talking about this very thing-and we both said the exact same thing-free lunch and all. Or maybe you just get more selfish. I'm 52 and support Sanders as do most of my friends. We do not believe that his ideas will be free. We just see that what is best for us personally is not always what's best for society as a whole. I'm perfectly willing to pay a little more to help my fellow citizens. I'm so sick of this whole "every body just wants free stuff" bullshit. That's what conservatives say about it not what most Sanders supporters believe or even want. I don't want free stuff. I want more for my money then endless war, dead soldiers and people working 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet.
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Apr 13, 2016 13:36:27 GMT
My mom and I were just talking about this very thing-and we both said the exact same thing-free lunch and all. Or maybe you just get more selfish. I'm 52 and support Sanders as do most of my friends. We do not believe that his ideas will be free. We just see that what is best for us personally is not always what's best for society as a whole. I'm perfectly willing to pay a little more to help my fellow citizens. I'm so sick of this whole "every body just wants free stuff" bullshit. That's what conservatives say about it not what most Sanders supporters believe or even want. I don't want free stuff. I want more for my money then endless war, dead soldiers and people working 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet. Exactly. The "free stuff" argument is designed to dismiss and belittle the very real issues we have and the proposed solutions because it's easier than addressing them. Most people would rather remain in their comfortable bubble than really confront the idea that our system actively helps the wealthy while screwing over the poor and middle class. As someone else said above, poor people using safety net programs are not the problem here.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:28:19 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 13:39:36 GMT
My mom and I were just talking about this very thing-and we both said the exact same thing-free lunch and all. Or maybe you just get more selfish. I'm 52 and support Sanders as do most of my friends. We do not believe that his ideas will be free. We just see that what is best for us personally is not always what's best for society as a whole. I'm perfectly willing to pay a little more to help my fellow citizens. I'm so sick of this whole "every body just wants free stuff" bullshit. That's what conservatives say about it not what most Sanders supporters believe or even want. I don't want free stuff. I want more for my money then endless war, dead soldiers and people working 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet.
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Apr 13, 2016 13:43:18 GMT
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Apr 13, 2016 13:46:56 GMT
My mom and I were just talking about this very thing-and we both said the exact same thing-free lunch and all. Or maybe you just get more selfish. I'm 52 and support Sanders as do most of my friends. We do not believe that his ideas will be free. We just see that what is best for us personally is not always what's best for society as a whole. I'm perfectly willing to pay a little more to help my fellow citizens. I'm so sick of this whole "every body just wants free stuff" bullshit. That's what conservatives say about it not what most Sanders supporters believe or even want. I don't want free stuff. I want more for my money then endless war, dead soldiers and people working 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet. The funny thing? I am about as far away from being a true conservative as one can get. I feel very strongly that there is a desperate need for social programs-and in fact tend to fall on the side that says sometimes to help with the hand up, you have to also know that there will be those who just want the handout. At the same time though, I am not completely convinced that what Mr. Sanders is suggesting is feasible and (for example) in cases like his idea of making state colleges/universities free, I think that there will be some unintended consequences that haven't been considered. For me personally, I don't care for any of the candidates. I just want that middle of road person who will be a better steward of the money we have and a better samaritan to our people.
|
|
Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,011
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
|
Post by Sarah*H on Apr 13, 2016 14:25:47 GMT
The Supreme Court is the biggest issue I have for liberals who say they won't vote for HRC/BS if the candidate they don't support gets the nomination. The next President will likely appoint 4 Supreme Court justices, replacing 2 stalwart liberals and the swing voter. Make no mistake - a SC stacked by the likes of Donald Trump or Ted Cruz (or even a more moderate Republican candidate if that's what comes out of the convention) will systematically decimate our social safety net and civil rights protections which, for the most part, only continue to exist in this country because previous SC court decisions upheld the underlying legislation.
I find the behavior of some supporters on both sides to be reprehensible - snide, condescending and often outright rude on the part of HRC voters who denigrate the youth, sincerity and idealism of Bernie voters. And frankly, the zealotry and ugly rehtoric of some Bernie supporters scares the bejeezus out of me.
Bernie Sanders would be a disaster for my family in terms of the increase in federal income tax we would pay if he actually got his policies through. It will most directly impact what we're able to contribute to our kids' college educations and since we'll never be the beneficiary of any free tuition plan, it's a complete loss for us. I still trust him because I think he's sincere in his beliefs and his motivations. And I'll still happily push the button for him if he's the nominee. I'd much rather be voting for someone other than these two candidates but that's not the reality we're faced with this time around.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:28:19 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 15:48:37 GMT
The Supreme Court is the biggest issue I have for liberals who say they won't vote for HRC/BS if the candidate they don't support gets the nomination. The next President will likely appoint 4 Supreme Court justices, replacing 2 stalwart liberals and the swing voter. Make no mistake - a SC stacked by the likes of Donald Trump or Ted Cruz (or even a more moderate Republican candidate if that's what comes out of the convention) will systematically decimate our social safety net and civil rights protections which, for the most part, only continue to exist in this country because previous SC court decisions upheld the underlying legislation. I find the behavior of some supporters on both sides to be reprehensible - snide, condescending and often outright rude on the part of HRC voters who denigrate the youth, sincerity and idealism of Bernie voters. And frankly, the zealotry and ugly rehtoric of some Bernie supporters scares the bejeezus out of me. Bernie Sanders would be a disaster for my family in terms of the increase in federal income tax we would pay if he actually got his policies through. It will most directly impact what we're able to contribute to our kids' college educations and since we'll never be the beneficiary of any free tuition plan, it's a complete loss for us. I still trust him because I think he's sincere in his beliefs and his motivations. And I'll still happily push the button for him if he's the nominee. I'd much rather be voting for someone other than these two candidates but that's not the reality we're faced with this time around. There is method to my madness. I live in CA and the chances of this state going Republican in the general election are nil to none. Withholding my vote only counts in the popular vote and that is what I'm aiming for. If for some strange reason it looks like CA may go Republican then I will vote for Bernie like a good little Democrat. But if Sanders is the nominee and if CA goes Republican in the general election then I suspect my greatest fear will be happening and that is the Democrats will suffer their greatest loss ever.
|
|
schizo319
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,030
Jun 28, 2014 0:26:58 GMT
|
Post by schizo319 on Apr 13, 2016 15:51:53 GMT
I'm 38 and Sanders is the only candidate I can stomach, and even then, he's not someone I'm particularly excited to vote for. I believe his goals are overly idealistic and I absolutely abhor the idea of "free college". I did hear a quote on NPR the other day attributed to Sanders that said something to this effect (and I'm paraphrasing here): "You never ask for a slice of bread and expect to come out with a crumb - you always ask for the WHOLE loaf and then maybe you end up with a slice" - I found that to be refreshingly honest, but it bothers me a little bit that he hasn't been more forthcoming with that kind of realism (because he knows it won't play to his younger audience? or did he just say it to pander to more moderate voters who're afraid of his policies? or did NPR just pull that out of their collective asses?). Frankly, I don't "trust" ANY of them, from the top all the way down to state/local politics - though I'm probably biased given our sleazy Alabama governor...
|
|
tincin
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,378
Jul 25, 2014 4:55:32 GMT
|
Post by tincin on Apr 13, 2016 16:24:05 GMT
Another over 50 Bernie supporter here, as are many of my friends. Like others have said I'm not expecting anything free but we need to take care of our elderly, veterans, children and disabled. If that means the 1% pay more taxes I am all over it. If Bernie isn't elected it will be the SSDD. I am sick of paying more taxes than people who have more money than me simply because their political cronies have created loopholes for them. I also believe if a Republican gets elected women will be systematically stripped of rights we have fought so hard to obtain.
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Apr 13, 2016 16:42:14 GMT
Of course I will vote for Bernie Sanders if he is the nominee. But I support Hillary and hope/pray/trust she can beat whoever the Republicans put up. I am always shocked by Democrats and independent liberals who say they couldn't vote for Hillary ... when you look at the alternatives, it's just horrifying. Either President Trump or President Cruz = bad news for America and the world, and in.no.way. comparable to Hillary, even if you dislike her.
My latest irritation with Bernie is that he's being annoyingly self-righteous about the Clintons in regards to the 1994 crime bill. He freakin' voted for that crime bill. Don't talk to me about Hillary and hypocrisy in the same sentence, unless you want to include Bernie in that discussion, too.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:28:19 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 16:43:32 GMT
I'm so sick of this whole "every body just wants free stuff" bullshit. That's what conservatives say about it not what most Sanders supporters believe or even want. I don't want free stuff. I want more for my money then endless war, dead soldiers and people working 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet. Add this 40s something to the list as well. I don't expect "free stuff". I pay plenty in taxes. I just worry about my sons future. That is what is important to me. He's getting my vote, and I know lots of people my age who are also voting for him.
|
|
|
Post by kellybelly77 on Apr 13, 2016 16:50:16 GMT
I just can't believe that since I am over age 30 I am considered an older voter! I'm not even 40 yet!! But seriously, I am over age 30 and I am a Sanders supporter. But opposite of what krazy said above, Kansas has no chance in heck that it will go blue so my Sanders (or even Hillary vote) likely won't matter.
|
|
~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
|
Post by ~Lauren~ on Apr 13, 2016 17:11:16 GMT
The Supreme Court is the biggest issue I have for liberals who say they won't vote for HRC/BS if the candidate they don't support gets the nomination. The next President will likely appoint 4 Supreme Court justices, replacing 2 stalwart liberals and the swing voter. Make no mistake - a SC stacked by the likes of Donald Trump or Ted Cruz (or even a more moderate Republican candidate if that's what comes out of the convention) will systematically decimate our social safety net and civil rights protections which, for the most part, only continue to exist in this country because previous SC court decisions upheld the underlying legislation. I find the behavior of some supporters on both sides to be reprehensible - snide, condescending and often outright rude on the part of HRC voters who denigrate the youth, sincerity and idealism of Bernie voters. And frankly, the zealotry and ugly rehtoric of some Bernie supporters scares the bejeezus out of me. Bernie Sanders would be a disaster for my family in terms of the increase in federal income tax we would pay if he actually got his policies through. It will most directly impact what we're able to contribute to our kids' college educations and since we'll never be the beneficiary of any free tuition plan, it's a complete loss for us. I still trust him because I think he's sincere in his beliefs and his motivations. And I'll still happily push the button for him if he's the nominee. I'd much rather be voting for someone other than these two candidates but that's not the reality we're faced with this time around. _____________________________________________________________________________________ The reasons you state (in reverse) are precisely why I will vote for Trump or Cruz (even though I'm not particularly crazy about either.). I want more conservative, strict Constitutional constructionists on the Supreme Court.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:28:19 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 17:24:58 GMT
Of course I will vote for Bernie Sanders if he is the nominee. But I support Hillary and hope/pray/trust she can beat whoever the Republicans put up. I am always shocked by Democrats and independent liberals who say they couldn't vote for Hillary ... when you look at the alternatives, it's just horrifying. Either President Trump or President Cruz = bad news for America and the world, and in.no.way. comparable to Hillary, even if you dislike her. My latest irritation with Bernie is that he's being annoyingly self-righteous about the Clintons in regards to the 1994 crime bill. He freakin' voted for that crime bill. Don't talk to me about Hillary and hypocrisy in the same sentence, unless you want to include Bernie in that discussion, too. The trouble with a lot of the bills that are presented is there are many different provisions or riders. In that particular bill, Bernie voted six times to eliminate or weaken the death penalty provisions and voted separately against new mandatory minimum sentencing. He was very supportive of the provisions that banned assault weapons and the Violence Against Women provisions of that bill. It is unfortunate that he did not have success of vetoing those provisions he was against, but he is on record for vetoing those provisions. Whereas Hillary was definitely for those provisions. I believe she referred to at-risk youth (read BLACK) as "super predators" and need to be "brought to heel." So no, no hypocrisy there. Also, the reason I will not vote for Hillary if she is the nominee is I do not see the difference between her or any of the Republican candidates. She may be running on the Democratic ticket, but she is more Republican than Democrat. I will, however, vote for as many Democratic/Progressive candidates as I can in hopes in 4 more years, we will have someone as Progressive as Bernie run again.
|
|