Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 16:19:48 GMT
Vouchers are fabulous. Parents can choose the schools they feel are best for their children. You have the same choice. I don't see a problem giving parents more choices. Vouchers may be "fabulous" in large urban areas where there are a lot of other schools (although I don't think they're "fabulous" even there...). But what about in smaller towns or rural areas? In the small college town where my dd is in school there are public schools, one private school (expensive), and I think a Catholic school. That's it. So where do those public school kids use their vouchers? You have to choose from the options you have, or move.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 16:23:21 GMT
I am not much of a spreadsheet keeper, but aren't you the person who got on your high horse several years ago to demand that your daughter's school make her lunches (that she got for FREE by the way) accommodate her special dietary needs?
How would that fly in a private school? I live in an area with lots of private schools, both elementary and high schools. I know people who sent/send their kids to private schools. Most of them are very expensive, and I highly doubt they serve free lunches. And I doubt they will start just because people will use vouchers who otherwise can't afford those schools. I also highly doubt a voucher would cover the cost of tuition as most of them are at least $10,000 PER STUDENT. So how would that work in a family of say 3 kids? Do you think the vouchers are going to cover $30,000. Again, highly doubtful.
And let's talk transportation. Those I know who send their children to private high schools often drive them 30-45 minutes each way, and that's on a good traffic day. They don't provide bus transportation. So even if a family can squeak enough out of their budget to cover what the vouchers do not, what are the logistics of getting them to school, the money in gas, wear and tear on their car, etc, along with trying to get them to and from school around getting themselves to work. Not all cities have extensive public transportation.
You have to make choices. Nobody said it would be easy.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 16:26:19 GMT
I'm just waiting for the satanic temple to open up a charter school. Then we will see how quickly that wall between church and state goes up again. Exactly this! Christians think their religion is the only one that will pop up w/Church schools. But any religion can do the same and claim to the same funds since the government cannot favor one religion over others based on the Establishment clause. Saying only Christian schools can be funded goes smack against Establishment. Until they clean out the judiciary, at least. I wouldn't care if you sent your kid to a satanic school. My kid wouldn't go there but you can do what you want.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 16:28:41 GMT
Vouchers are fabulous. Parents can choose the schools they feel are best for their children. You have the same choice. I don't see a problem giving parents more choices. As someone who has paid property taxes and never had a child in the school system I have always been told (and it has been my belief) that it is our obligation as country to make sure that all of our children have access to a good public education. That is the importance of public schools, they will educate all no matter where the parents fall in the "class" system and if you want something different for your child that should be your responsibility. Now instead of building up our public schools we are trying to tear them down at the expense of those children that need it the most and have no other "options". The education gap between the "classes" will increase and those kids most vulnerable (through no fault of their own) will have much less of a chance to succeed. For a country where many are so vocal about saving children, we seem to be hell bent on giving up on those that need help/saving the most. I would prefer my money to go to a good and vibrant public education system and not funding parents' choices. If your choice is to send your child to an alternate school or home school them that is your choice and should be on your dime. My tax money pays for the voucher, so you shouldn't have a problem with my having a choice where to put my money.
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amom23
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,401
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Jun 27, 2014 12:39:18 GMT
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Post by amom23 on Feb 8, 2017 16:31:05 GMT
Vouchers may be "fabulous" in large urban areas where there are a lot of other schools (although I don't think they're "fabulous" even there...). But what about in smaller towns or rural areas? In the small college town where my dd is in school there are public schools, one private school (expensive), and I think a Catholic school. That's it. So where do those public school kids use their vouchers? You have to choose from the options you have, or move. Now you are just being ridiculous and you know it.
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Just T
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,801
Jun 26, 2014 1:20:09 GMT
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Post by Just T on Feb 8, 2017 16:35:08 GMT
I am not much of a spreadsheet keeper, but aren't you the person who got on your high horse several years ago to demand that your daughter's school make her lunches (that she got for FREE by the way) accommodate her special dietary needs?
How would that fly in a private school? I live in an area with lots of private schools, both elementary and high schools. I know people who sent/send their kids to private schools. Most of them are very expensive, and I highly doubt they serve free lunches. And I doubt they will start just because people will use vouchers who otherwise can't afford those schools. I also highly doubt a voucher would cover the cost of tuition as most of them are at least $10,000 PER STUDENT. So how would that work in a family of say 3 kids? Do you think the vouchers are going to cover $30,000. Again, highly doubtful.
And let's talk transportation. Those I know who send their children to private high schools often drive them 30-45 minutes each way, and that's on a good traffic day. They don't provide bus transportation. So even if a family can squeak enough out of their budget to cover what the vouchers do not, what are the logistics of getting them to school, the money in gas, wear and tear on their car, etc, along with trying to get them to and from school around getting themselves to work. Not all cities have extensive public transportation.
You have to make choices. Nobody said it would be easy.What you don't seem to GET is that for some, they may not HAVE choices! If you live in a small rural area with no private school, and your 1 public school has now gone to crap because the majority of your state's education dollars are going to private school vouchers, what kind of choice is that? Your answer is to move? Seriously?
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Post by crazy4scraps on Feb 8, 2017 16:44:03 GMT
Vouchers are a fabulous deal for people who can afford to send their child to the private school of their choice anyway. For me and my family? Not so much. The base tuition at the three private schools closest to me cost roughly $4500, $4900 and $5500 PER YEAR, per kid. And that's not counting uniforms, transportation, lunches, annual student fees and all the myriad fundraisers all of these schools force the families to support every.stinking.year.all.year.long. My kid is in first grade, and to send her to even the cheapest one of those schools would amount to over $30K + for the next seven years, not counting the inevitable increases in tuition from year to year. And that's just GRADE school, all the private high schools around here are more like $12,000 a year or more base tuition. Any extra money we do have goes into a college fund so we can help her out paying for school later on when our only option is to pay tuition. ... I'm not sure why you think vouchers wouldn't help you. Of the states that passed them, many are equal to the per pupil funding for the state (which varies between $6,000 and 19,000 depending on state). Some cap the amount - but most of the caps are $4,500 or more. So you're an example of someone who actually COULD take the $4,500 voucher down to your local private school. Now the two private schools around here are $17,000 and 19,000 - I think the parochial schools are around $13,000 and there's a Jewish high school which is around $15,000 a year. Our state is low on per pupil funding - so even if the voucher was 100% of per pupil funding, it wouldn't pay the full cost of even a religious school. You are assuming that we would get a $4500 annual voucher from my state. That's more than we pay in total property taxes for a year. You are also assuming that my child would get the same quality education at the $4500 a year school that she is getting at the public school she attends now, which is currently well funded both by the district and by our highly engaged PTA. You are also assuming I would WANT to put my kid in a private school. Which I don't, and never will. My personal experience with private school was awful, and that's putting it mildly. I have zero desire to put my child through the kind of hell I lived through going to private school.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 16:48:33 GMT
You have to choose from the options you have, or move. Now you are just being ridiculous and you know it. Are those not her options?
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 16:49:50 GMT
You have to make choices. Nobody said it would be easy. What you don't seem to GET is that for some, they may not HAVE choices! If you live in a small rural area with no private school, and your 1 public school has now gone to crap because the majority of your state's education dollars are going to private school vouchers, what kind of choice is that? Your answer is to move? Seriously? Life is full of choices.
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Post by compeateropeator on Feb 8, 2017 16:51:35 GMT
As someone who has paid property taxes and never had a child in the school system I have always been told (and it has been my belief) that it is our obligation as country to make sure that all of our children have access to a good public education. That is the importance of public schools, they will educate all no matter where the parents fall in the "class" system and if you want something different for your child that should be your responsibility. Now instead of building up our public schools we are trying to tear them down at the expense of those children that need it the most and have no other "options". The education gap between the "classes" will increase and those kids most vulnerable (through no fault of their own) will have much less of a chance to succeed. For a country where many are so vocal about saving children, we seem to be hell bent on giving up on those that need help/saving the most. I would prefer my money to go to a good and vibrant public education system and not funding parents' choices. If your choice is to send your child to an alternate school or home school them that is your choice and should be on your dime. My tax money pays for the voucher, so you shouldn't have a problem with my having a choice where to put my money.No your tax money, just as mine does, help pays for a public education system, just as it helps pay for a basic infrastructure such as roads. So you can either use the public education that is being provided or you can make the choice not to at your expense. You Do have a choice but as you just said ...no one said it would be easy.
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peasquared
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,672
Jul 6, 2014 23:59:59 GMT
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Post by peasquared on Feb 8, 2017 16:53:10 GMT
Now you are just being ridiculous and you know it. Are those not her options?You don't get it. In a rural area there is NO choice. And with all the federal funding being stripped away, what's left?
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 16:59:47 GMT
My tax money pays for the voucher, so you shouldn't have a problem with my having a choice where to put my money. No your tax money, just as mine does, help pays for a public education system, just as it helps pay for a basic infrastructure such as roads. So you can either use the public education that is being provided or you can make the choice not to at your expense. You Do have a choice but as you just said ...no one said it would be easy. I could also use a voucher if I decided to do so. Is the voucher money donated? From where?
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Post by missmiss on Feb 8, 2017 17:01:54 GMT
I would be okay with vouchers IF AND ONLY IF
$9,000 paid in
Voucher gets you $7500 out
School district keeps $1500
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Post by crazy4scraps on Feb 8, 2017 17:07:49 GMT
Thinking about this further, there is something I haven't seen addressed anywhere. No one is taking into account the fact that ALL of the parents who are currently paying the full ride for their kids to go to private school will now, OF COURSE, take advantage of any state or federal education vouchers that become available to offset their costs.
This is money that is currently being used to fund the public schools for all kids in public school (for the greater good, I might add) whether all the kids go to those schools or not. So since we're talking about giving vouchers to EVERY school aged child, all coming OUT of the public school pot but not necessarily going back IN to that public school pot, how is that going to benefit ANY public school child? Every public school is now going to lose funds to some degree, even the good ones, because every private school parent is going to take advantage of that new benefit.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 17:08:34 GMT
Are those not her options? You don't get it. In a rural area there is NO choice. And with all the federal funding being stripped away, what's left? Now you are being ridiculous. Nobody is going to leave them with zero funding. And the option to move is there as well. You make your choices.
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Post by jenis40 on Feb 8, 2017 17:09:25 GMT
What you don't seem to GET is that for some, they may not HAVE choices! If you live in a small rural area with no private school, and your 1 public school has now gone to crap because the majority of your state's education dollars are going to private school vouchers, what kind of choice is that? Your answer is to move? Seriously? Life is full of choices.Like the choice to move somewhere else if you can no longer find work as a coal miner? That kind of choice?
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Post by jennyap on Feb 8, 2017 17:11:33 GMT
You don't get it. In a rural area there is NO choice. And with all the federal funding being stripped away, what's left? Now you are being ridiculous. Nobody is going to leave them with zero funding. And the option to move is there as well. You make your choices.
Sure there's the option to move. And decimate the - essential - rural economy while you're at it. Who's going to grow all your food if the farmers with poor local schools do choose to move, for example?
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 17:15:13 GMT
Like the choice to move somewhere else if you can no longer find work as a coal miner? That kind of choice? Any kind of choice.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Feb 8, 2017 17:18:39 GMT
Are those not her options? You don't get it. In a rural area there is NO choice. And with all the federal funding being stripped away, what's left? Not only in rural areas but also in inner cities where large concentrations of poor people with limited resources live. Yes, there might be another school in the city, but if you can't get your five year old kid to that school on the other side of the city by city bus AND get yourself to your $7-8 an hour minimum wage job on time, you really don't have a choice either.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Feb 8, 2017 17:19:16 GMT
Now you are being ridiculous. Nobody is going to leave them with zero funding. And the option to move is there as well. You make your choices.
Sure there's the option to move. And decimate the - essential - rural economy while you're at it. Who's going to grow all your food if the farmers with poor local schools do choose to move, for example?
I'm sure you can come up with endless scenarios. I'm just not buying into it. More choices (freedom) is a good thing.
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Post by missmiss on Feb 8, 2017 17:21:31 GMT
You don't get it. In a rural area there is NO choice. And with all the federal funding being stripped away, what's left? Now you are being ridiculous. Nobody is going to leave them with zero funding. And the option to move is there as well. You make your choices.Well it can leave a school in some dire situations. 1. School has 1000 students and district has a building for all 1000 students 2. 50% of the population leaves due to vouchers so school only has 500 students now 3. School District is still paying for the 1000 student school which it lost 50% of its funding. SCHOOL DISTRICT IS SCREWED!
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Post by compeateropeator on Feb 8, 2017 17:30:02 GMT
No your tax money, just as mine does, help pays for a public education system, just as it helps pay for a basic infrastructure such as roads. So you can either use the public education that is being provided or you can make the choice not to at your expense. You Do have a choice but as you just said ...no one said it would be easy. I could also use a voucher if I decided to do so. Is the voucher money donated? From where?I am sorry, I don't understand your question. There would be no vouchers because you either use the public education provided or you don't. I am sure you could get donations or there are also scholarships if you wanted to send your child to an other type of school (private, boarding, Religous, etc.) or if you wanted to home school them.
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Post by scrapsotime on Feb 8, 2017 17:37:43 GMT
So, you have a voucher. Good luck finding a school with enough openings for new students to take it. And the schools that pop up, like some charter schools, good luck with those, too. We had a couple charter schools pop up when Pence decided vouchers were the way to go in Indiana. They have all closed in my town because they steadily lost students because they were the schools with the worst ratings.
There are some good ones, but at one point half of all the charter schools in Indiana received D or F ratings.
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Post by snugglebutter on Feb 8, 2017 17:45:26 GMT
Thinking about this further, there is something I haven't seen addressed anywhere. No one is taking into account the fact that ALL of the parents who are currently paying the full ride for their kids to go to private school will now, OF COURSE, take advantage of any state or federal education vouchers that become available to offset their costs. This is money that is currently being used to fund the public schools for all kids in public school (for the greater good, I might add) whether all the kids go to those schools or not. So since we're talking about giving vouchers to EVERY school aged child, all coming OUT of the public school pot but not necessarily going back IN to that public school pot, how is that going to benefit ANY public school child? Every public school is now going to lose funds to some degree, even the good ones, because every private school parent is going to take advantage of that new benefit. Yep - this is the group who will "benefit" from vouchers the most. My district and the neighboring urban district both have a lot of private schooling families. It scares me to think about what this would do to their funding. In Texas they are trying to include homeschooling families in the proposed voucher program. That could of course be a whole other thread, but this homeschooler is COMPLETELY opposed to that idea.
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Just T
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,801
Jun 26, 2014 1:20:09 GMT
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Post by Just T on Feb 8, 2017 17:46:25 GMT
Sure there's the option to move. And decimate the - essential - rural economy while you're at it. Who's going to grow all your food if the farmers with poor local schools do choose to move, for example?
I'm sure you can come up with endless scenarios. I'm just not buying into it. More choices (freedom) is a good thing.More choices will be given to some, but others will NOT HAVE A CHOICE. (yes, I am yelling, because you are being obtuse!) How is it fair to give one more choices while taking other's choices away??
And as to the "they have the choice to move" statement. I haven't seen this addressed yet on the thread, but perhaps I missed it. I think we all know what happens to housing values when a school district sucks, right? Housing values are pretty much directly tied to the quality of the public schools. So, when your school district now is terrible because of the voucher system, the value of your house is going to decrease. Not only that, but no one will want to buy your house, even if you do choose to move. So what then? Not many people can just pick up and move and abandon a home they own and buy another one. Again, you now have no choice but to stay in a shitty school district.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 8, 2017 17:48:01 GMT
People are making wild assumption about would and wouldn't be included in a voucher program. Some current programs require the student receiving the voucher to be a current public school pupil (negating the concern about private school attendees suddenly receiving vouchers) some limit the number of vouchers students from a particular school can receive (negating the 50% of students disappearing). I don't see vouchers as some magic bullet that will fix public schools, but there is currently NO federal voucher program - when and if Betsy DeVos proposes one - we can debate it's merits or lack thereof. For the 14 states that currently offer voucher programs they vary tremendously and many of the concerns people have with them are actually not part of the programs. I linked to a summary table of what they actually look like above. And as an aside - I am pretty anti-federal mandates for schools in general, so am not a supporter of a federal voucher program.
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Post by cade387 on Feb 8, 2017 17:48:58 GMT
Now you are being ridiculous. Nobody is going to leave them with zero funding. And the option to move is there as well. You make your choices. Well it can leave a school in some dire situations. 1. School has 1000 students and district has a building for all 1000 students 2. 50% of the population leaves due to vouchers so school only has 500 students now 3. School District is still paying for the 1000 student school which it lost 50% of its funding. SCHOOL DISTRICT IS SCREWED! it is actually worse than that.
District has 5,000 homes paying into it with tax money. Let's say they each pay $1,000 to the school. The school gets $5K from the tax money.
The school only has 3,000 kids enrolled though because 1,000 people don't have kids and 1,000 people send their kids to private school.
Budget is then $5K/3K students = $1,667 per student.
Now vouchers come in. Those 1,000 families who send their kids to private school take their money "back" (essentially) and reduce the budget by $1K. Then the people with no kids feel like they shouldn't have to pay into school when the folks in private schools don't either so that $1K disappears too.
Then out of the 3K students, another 1K leave to take their kids and their money to private schools.
That leaves the district with schools (and maintenance) that hold 3K kids, but now only have 2K kids there. The budget per kid is now $2K/2K students = $1,000 per kid
BUT - the buildings don't magically disappear and they can't be fined for building violations. Those are fixed costs. so the budget per kid is really more like ~$800/kid.
The district has now had their budget cut in half, but still have to pay their teachers and staff.
How does this not hurt the kids who can't afford to move, go to private school or homeschool?
This is even an over-simplified scenario as well. It is really a ton more complicated than that.
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Post by jinxmom2003 on Feb 8, 2017 17:57:31 GMT
So, you have a voucher. Good luck finding a school with enough openings for new students to take it. And the schools that pop up, like some charter schools, good luck with those, too. We had a couple charter schools pop up when Pence decided vouchers were the way to go in Indiana. They have all closed in my town because they steadily lost students because they were the schools with the worst ratings. There are some good ones, but at one point half of all the charter schools in Indiana received D or F ratings. This is real life speaking to you. Someone who knows. Pay attention!
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 8, 2017 18:02:16 GMT
I'm not sure why you think vouchers wouldn't help you. Of the states that passed them, many are equal to the per pupil funding for the state (which varies between $6,000 and 19,000 depending on state). Some cap the amount - but most of the caps are $4,500 or more. So you're an example of someone who actually COULD take the $4,500 voucher down to your local private school. Now the two private schools around here are $17,000 and 19,000 - I think the parochial schools are around $13,000 and there's a Jewish high school which is around $15,000 a year. Our state is low on per pupil funding - so even if the voucher was 100% of per pupil funding, it wouldn't pay the full cost of even a religious school. You are assuming that we would get a $4500 annual voucher from my state. That's more than we pay in total property taxes for a year. You are also assuming that my child would get the same quality education at the $4500 a year school that she is getting at the public school she attends now, which is currently well funded both by the district and by our highly engaged PTA. You are also assuming I would WANT to put my kid in a private school. Which I don't, and never will. My personal experience with private school was awful, and that's putting it mildly. I have zero desire to put my child through the kind of hell I lived through going to private school. ? I'm not telling you to send your kid to private school. I was simply pointing out that you actually live in a state where per student funding is HIGHER than the local private schools. Irregardless of your personal property taxes, there is no state that has per pupil funding lower than $6555.
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,078
Jun 26, 2014 13:42:47 GMT
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Feb 8, 2017 18:16:03 GMT
As someone who has paid property taxes and never had a child in the school system I have always been told (and it has been my belief) that it is our obligation as country to make sure that all of our children have access to a good public education. That is the importance of public schools, they will educate all no matter where the parents fall in the "class" system and if you want something different for your child that should be your responsibility. Now instead of building up our public schools we are trying to tear them down at the expense of those children that need it the most and have no other "options". The education gap between the "classes" will increase and those kids most vulnerable (through no fault of their own) will have much less of a chance to succeed. For a country where many are so vocal about saving children, we seem to be hell bent on giving up on those that need help/saving the most. I would prefer my money to go to a good and vibrant public education system and not funding parents' choices. If your choice is to send your child to an alternate school or home school them that is your choice and should be on your dime. My tax money pays for the voucher, so you shouldn't have a problem with my having a choice where to put my money.Correction: your tax money pays for a small portion of the voucher. Everyone in your community pays a portion of the voucher as well. Shouldn't they have some say in how their tax dollars are spent?
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