Grom Pea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,944
Jun 27, 2014 0:21:07 GMT
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Post by Grom Pea on Apr 13, 2017 19:57:14 GMT
Okay, so I don't really understand why the law enforcement people who actually went on the plane and removed Dr. Dao are getting fired. While what they did was horrible, weren't they simply doing what they were asked to do? Flight crew contacts them and says "Get this guy off the plane, forcibly if need be." I kind of feel like they are being made scapegoats for decisions that were made by others. I could be wrong, and often am, so maybe some of you could share your perspectives on this aspect of the debacle. Really? So it's ok to hurt someone because your job is a police officer? So all of the Nazi ss are excused for their crimes against humanity because it was their job and someone told them to do it? Every person has a brain and can think for themselves and shouldn't just do something wrong because their boss told them to. I mean maybe my Nazi example is extreme but even if your boss asked you to shred evidence when you knew they were being investigated, would it be ok because it's just part of your job to push paperwork?
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Post by hollymolly on Apr 13, 2017 20:37:33 GMT
This woman's tone is very off-putting and as a pilot's wife, she should be more outraged. I agree with that. I also dislike how she blamed the doctor for getting back on the plane. He had his head bashed, which broke his teeth and nose. This likely caused a concussion and/or shock that very likely led to him being disoriented. I think most people could see, when he got back on the plane, he was bloodied and distraught and to blame him for getting back on the plane is pretty pathetic. Yes, there are many federal regulations involved in air travel, but that doesn't mean that there weren't other options. Yes, United was legally within their rights to bump the doctor but, again, there were other options. No, United didn't "touch" the man, they just ordered him removed from the flight however necessary. I also think that had this man voluntarily missed his flight and not been able to see patients that could also have had terrible ramifications. How many people are understanding when their doctor misses an appointment? I thought it was a very important article with valid points everyone should read and consider. I didn't like her tone, but it's important to understand what she's saying in between the attitude. I think she had her timeline wrong about him rushing back on the plane, it seems that she thinks the assault occurred after that. As far as I'm concerned, going back on the plane was the action of a man with a concussion and he is in no way responsible for anything he did at that point. United had other options they should have taken. Their CEO is a douche. They were very very wrong. But he was wrong too. I would not be comfortable flying with anyone who did not follow crew member instructions. What if there's a fire or an accident and your life depends on getting off the plane quickly, and what if this guy insists that he can't leave without his laptop, and holds up everyone behind him while he fights with a broken overhead bin? There are legitimate safety reasons that you do what the crew tells you to do. You don't get to decide while you are in the plane that you don't have to comply. That puts my life at risk because I'm on the plane too. The sentence I bolded in the quote above is really frustrating to me. First, I read that the work he couldn't miss was a shift in the ER. If this is true, he did not have regular patients who depended on him and him alone. If he got sick, or had a car accident on his way to work, or missed his flight the night before and was stuck in Chicago, the ER would have him covered. Second, let's just assume that I read wrong and he was a surgeon who had a life or death surgery scheduled the next morning. As I said in my previous post, if it is that important that he be back, air travel the night before is a risk that he should not have taken. I would go so far as to say that it was professionally irresponsible of him to be so dependent on a single flight. So many things delay or cancel flights. So.Many. And if we are still arguing the "But he's a doctor and patients depended on him" tack, what about the other flight, the one that the must-fly crew members had to make so that it would not be cancelled? How many doctors were on that flight? How many people on their way to say goodbye to a dying loved one? How many people on their way to a can't-miss job interview? His and his patients' needs do not outweigh the needs of the literally hundreds, possibly thousands, of people impacted if the crew did not make it to Kentucky. Not his fault? Well it's not the fault of any of the other people whose travel would have been disrupted either. United screwed up big time. But he was still wrong.
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Post by QueSeraSera on Apr 13, 2017 20:53:23 GMT
I read that Dr. Dao fled Vietnam in 1975 in tough circumstance. I'm seeing some theories that the head trauma he sustained is what caused the erratic behaviour when he ran back onto the plane. Possible flashbacks or a break with reality?
Two of his front teeth were knocked out and he had a concussion. Shacking my head at the people basically blaming him for getting assaulted. Do people realize the attitude of "If he would have just obeyed, everything would have been fine." is victim blaming? Cringe.
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Post by *KAS* on Apr 13, 2017 20:58:54 GMT
I read an article that said he was coming from LA, and had spent nearly 24 hours trying to get back home. I don't know if that's true, but if so, perhaps he'd already encountered other issues on his way home, and wasn't 'professionally irresponsible.'
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Post by hollymolly on Apr 13, 2017 21:01:53 GMT
I read that Dr. Dao fled Vietnam in 1975 in tough circumstance. I'm seeing some theories that the head trauma he sustained is what caused the erratic behaviour when he ran back onto the plane. Possible flashbacks or a break with reality? Two of his front teeth were knocked out and he had a concussion. Shacking my head at the people basically blaming him for getting assaulted. If he would have just obeyed, everything would have been fine. Cringe. I'm not saying he should have obeyed to keep from being assaulted. Assault should never have been a possibility and is not something I would expect anyone to consider when making the decision to disobey crew member instructions. I am saying that he should have obeyed crew member instructions because that's what you agree to do when you board a plane, for the safety of all of the people on the plane.
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Post by hollymolly on Apr 13, 2017 21:13:49 GMT
I read an article that said he was coming from LA, and had spent nearly 24 hours trying to get back home. I don't know if that's true, but if so, perhaps he'd already encountered other issues on his way home, and wasn't 'professionally irresponsible.' I don't honestly think he was being professionally irresponsible, that was just in response to everyone talking about how very important it was that he be home, because he had patients waiting. I was arguing against the implication that United risked the lives of his patients. They are to blame for a lot, A Lot, but they are not to blame for anything to do with his patients. I hadn't read that article. It does sound like he had already being through bad travel hell. Being randomly chosen must have been the straw that broke the camel's back. I can understand not being entirely rational at that point.
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Apr 13, 2017 21:19:44 GMT
I read that Dr. Dao fled Vietnam in 1975 in tough circumstance. I'm seeing some theories that the head trauma he sustained is what caused the erratic behaviour when he ran back onto the plane. Possible flashbacks or a break with reality? Two of his front teeth were knocked out and he had a concussion. Shacking my head at the people basically blaming him for getting assaulted. If he would have just obeyed, everything would have been fine. Cringe. I'm a little confused..." Shacking my head at the people basically blaming him for getting assaulted. If he would have just obeyed, everything would have been fine." These two statements contradict each other. What are you saying, exactly?
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Post by pastlifepea on Apr 13, 2017 21:49:13 GMT
Okay, so I don't really understand why the law enforcement people who actually went on the plane and removed Dr. Dao are getting fired. While what they did was horrible, weren't they simply doing what they were asked to do? Flight crew contacts them and says "Get this guy off the plane, forcibly if need be." I kind of feel like they are being made scapegoats for decisions that were made by others. I could be wrong, and often am, so maybe some of you could share your perspectives on this aspect of the debacle. Really? So it's ok to hurt someone because your job is a police officer? So all of the Nazi ss are excused for their crimes against humanity because it was their job and someone told them to do it? Every person has a brain and can think for themselves and shouldn't just do something wrong because their boss told them to. I mean maybe my Nazi example is extreme but even if your boss asked you to shred evidence when you knew they were being investigated, would it be ok because it's just part of your job to push paperwork? Yes, it's totally okay and I would SO shred those documents whilst wearing my swastika t-shirt. I really don't understand the need to attack and belittle other people on here. I will happily bow out of this conversation since I am apparently an asshole who supports police brutality and all sorts of other unsavory things. Sheesh.
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Post by QueSeraSera on Apr 13, 2017 22:33:43 GMT
AT MizIndependent the second statement is why I'm shacking my head. When you strip it all down, it feels like victim blaming. If he would have complied, the incident would not have happened. I do NOT agree with this. Just summing up what I'm getting from some of the opinions. ETA I edited my original post to clarify.
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Post by elaine on Apr 13, 2017 23:20:10 GMT
I think it is a huge leap to assume that since this person didn't comply with crew member and security demands that he give up his seat simply so someone else could sit in it - and everyone knew that is why he was asked to leave - that he wouldn't comply in an emergency situation and would endanger other passengers. A leap that leads to most likely a false assumption.
I honestly don't know if I would have gotten up willingly in his case. I don't think I would have needed to be dragged, but they would have had to call security.
I do know that in a case of emergency, I would obey all crew orders and leave everything quickly behind.
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Apr 13, 2017 23:27:27 GMT
AT MizIndependent the second statement is why I'm shacking my head. When you strip it all down, it feels like victim blaming. If he would have complied, the incident would not have happened. I do NOT agree with this. Just summing up what I'm getting from some of the opinions. ETA I edited my original post to clarify. Yep. Seems to me that even though he didn't comply United still should not have broken his nose/given him a concussion/knocked two teeth out. "If he would have complied" isn't really this issue here since he did not comply. The fact is, he didn't and so the issue is what happened after he didn't comply is totally and completely unacceptable brute force trauma. He didn't comply, so what? There are ways of forcibly removing a person without putting them in the hospital. I still think if they'd offered enough CASH (instead of stupid vouchers) then someone would have actually volunteered. If it were me and the price was around $1,350 (the Federal Cap), I'd probably take that money and spend and extra night.
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Post by elaine on Apr 13, 2017 23:31:37 GMT
AT MizIndependent the second statement is why I'm shacking my head. When you strip it all down, it feels like victim blaming. If he would have complied, the incident would not have happened. I do NOT agree with this. Just summing up what I'm getting from some of the opinions. ETA I edited my original post to clarify. Yep. Seems to me that even though he didn't comply United still should not have broken his nose/given him a concussion/knocked two teeth out. "If he would have complied" isn't really this issue here since he did not comply. The fact is, he didn't and so the issue is what happened after he didn't comply is totally and completely unacceptable brute force trauma. He didn't comply, so what? There are ways of forcibly removing a person without putting them in the hospital. I still think if they'd offered enough CASH (instead of stupid vouchers) then someone would have actually volunteered. If it were me and the price was around $1,350 (the Federal Cap), I'd probably take that money and spend and extra night.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,307
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Apr 13, 2017 23:51:16 GMT
Well, according to the leaked internal communication from United CEO Oscar Munoz, "We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions." We already know this is false. The offer was $800. (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-airlines-mileageplus/1835638-man-pulled-off-overbooked-flight-ua3411-ord-sdf-9-april-2017-a.html) In addition, a passenger on the plane "offered to volunteer" if they gave him $1600. He was apparently laughed at. www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2017/04/10/uniteds-fiasco-prompts-apology-suspension/100295216/Personally, I think that if airlines were required to make cash payouts and not vouchers the number of passengers (46,000 last year) who are involuntarily denied boarding (IDB) would drop considerably. Of course there will always be unavoidable instances where passengers are IDB. In the meantime I wonder how many of those 46,000 received the cash they were entitled to or just accepted vouchers because they knew no better.
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Post by debmast on Apr 14, 2017 0:09:06 GMT
It looked like there were 3 men there talking to him (security people?). Is that correct? If so, why did only ONE of them remove him by banging him into the seat and dragging him up the aisle? Three of them (even two) should have been able to lift and carry him off.
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suzastampin
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,587
Jun 28, 2014 14:32:59 GMT
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Post by suzastampin on Apr 14, 2017 0:09:14 GMT
I haven't read all eleven pages of comments. I'm probably in the minority, though. As a passenger, I can't imagine putting up a fight to the extent of the Dr. When I saw the cops coming, I would figure it wasn't going to go my way. I understand him needing to get home to see patients, but he's not there now seeing them. He's in the hospital, but he'll have a lawsuit to compensate him.
I understand needing to be somewhere at a certain time. If I didn't get a connecting flight and missed a cruise ship, there would be h*ll to pay. Even if I didn't have some place I had to be, I would be telling the airline that I wasn't going away quietly.
What those cops did is inexcusable. But, I think there is a bit of fault on the doctor's shoulders.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 28, 2024 10:25:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 0:20:41 GMT
Nowhere in that long "pilot wife" post did she mention the one item that almost all agree upon:
UNITED SHOULD HAVE UP'ED THE OFFERS INSTEAD OF REACHING FOR THE PHONE TO THE AIRLINE POLICE.
She excuses all the other straw arguments, but doesn't mention this one. It's fun to toss out straw arguments and then bat them down as if they're lions. No, pilot wife, the real argument is UNITED SHOULD HAVE PAID FOR WHAT THEY NEEDED VS TAKING IT BY FORCE.
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Post by QueSeraSera on Apr 14, 2017 0:22:02 GMT
One of the other passengers has stated in several interviews that United employees used no diplomacy whatsoever. They were demanding, demeaning, and quickly escalated the incident to the police. Diplomacy could have made all the difference. I refuse to victim blame.
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Post by anniefb on Apr 14, 2017 0:27:39 GMT
Haven't read the whole thread, but IMO excessive force was used, even if the passenger should have obeyed the instruction to disembark. The other thing I struggle with is the extent of overbooking of flights in the USA. It hardly ever happens in New Zealand because airlines have to compensate passengers who are bumped from the flight as a result of overbooking, as well as for any cancellations and delays within the airline's control. This is actual monetary compensation, not vouchers etc.
Affected passengers can claim for damages up to 10 times the cost of the ticket, or the actual cost of the delay (whichever is lower). This costs of the delay can include reasonably foreseeable costs like meals, accommodation, missed connections etc.
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jayfab
Drama Llama
procastinating
Posts: 5,589
Jun 26, 2014 21:55:15 GMT
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Post by jayfab on Apr 14, 2017 0:44:35 GMT
I wouldn't have accepted a voucher. To me and other infrequent travelers it would be just about useless. Give me a good wad of cash and you probably would have a deal.
I'm with the Dr. Once the passengers are on the plane tough cookies, find another way for the employees to get where you want them. Charter a plane for all I care. Those passengers paid for their tickets and should get what they paid for.
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Post by angel97701 on Apr 14, 2017 3:50:18 GMT
Here is another viewpoint that should shed some light on the matter: Pilot's commentsWhen you buy a airline ticket there are rules that are much different from other contracts, as mandated by federal law. Even if you don't agree with them, it is the law. It is obviously wrong that Dr. Dao was injured in the process but he was breaking federal law.
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Kerri W
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,788
Location: Kentucky
Jun 25, 2014 20:31:44 GMT
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Post by Kerri W on Apr 14, 2017 3:57:29 GMT
For those that have followed this closely...have there been any passenger accounts that took the airline's side? I personally have only heard reports supporting the Dr.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Apr 14, 2017 4:01:29 GMT
One of the other passengers has stated in several interviews that United employees used no diplomacy whatsoever. They were demanding, demeaning, and quickly escalated the incident to the police. Diplomacy could have made all the difference. I refuse to victim blame. I agree. I was thinking about the whole 'if he'd complied, everything would have been fine' comment. Why stop there?!? If they had taken care of it before boarding the plane, everything on the plane would have been fine. Or, if they had upped the voucher price, they might have gotten volunteers and everything on the plane would have been fine. Or if they had changed from vouchers to cash, they might have gotten volunteers and everything on the plane would have been fine. Or, if they had arranged alternate transportation for the crew members, everything on the flight would have been fine. ------------------------------------------------------------------ There is NO reason that 'if he had just complied with their orders' was the only thing that could have happened.
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Post by lucillebluth on Apr 14, 2017 13:19:16 GMT
Late to the party and haven't read the whole thread, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway:
If the pilot wife blogger and the aviation lawyer want to help the airlines here, they really need to change strategy. "You stupid people need to read the fine print--you're at the airline's mercy," isn't really a winning argument. The pilot wife really lost me when she mocked how Dr. Dao reacted after suffering a head injury.
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katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,447
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Apr 14, 2017 14:03:15 GMT
Here is another viewpoint that should shed some light on the matter: Pilot's commentsWhen you buy a airline ticket there are rules that are much different from other contracts, as mandated by federal law. Even if you don't agree with them, it is the law. It is obviously wrong that Dr. Dao was injured in the process but he was breaking federal law. Oh Good Gravy! The pilot who wrote that article argued that he would absolutely remove an unruly passenger before the flight took off--one who was "refusing to comply". Dr. Dao was NOT an unruly passenger until they tried to remove him from the plane! He was just sitting there minding his own business wanting to get home… Also--he talks about the "contract." I have read several accounts from other aviation layers who claim that the right of an airline to deny BOARDING of a passenger is very different from the right to deny TRAVEL (i.e. Removing an already seated passenger from a plane) and that Untited did not meet the legal requirements for that.
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Post by melanell on Apr 14, 2017 15:31:59 GMT
It looked like there were 3 men there talking to him (security people?). Is that correct? If so, why did only ONE of them remove him by banging him into the seat and dragging him up the aisle? Three of them (even two) should have been able to lift and carry him off. This is what I keep thinking about. And what I keep comparing it to was a story an EMT told me once told me about a call for a man with a rather sever head injury. The EMT described how exhausting the call had been because even with several EMTs there, they had a very hard time getting this man into the ambulance safely. He was a tall, well-built man, larger than any of the men there to help him, and he was just not coherent at all. He didn't recognize his family members who were present and he was confused (and perhaps frightened) by who the EMTs were and why they were touching him. He kept swinging at all of them wildly, trying to keep them away. Now, yes, I get the immediate difference here. These were EMTs. Their first priority is the health and safety of this man. The enforcement/security officers' first priority was to remove Dao from the airline's property. Plus, this man had no idea what he was doing and in the beginning it is assumed that Dao did. But, in the EMT's story, this was a man who was fighting them every step of the way. He was bigger than any of them. And he was hitting them and trying to shove them away from him. And yet they managed not to injure him further. Why couldn't the officers move Dr. Dao without injuring him to this extent? (Of course, if Dr. Dao started trying to injure them, I could certainly see them needing to increase force to defend themselves, but I haven't heard that anything like that occurred.) I get that it was a tight space and there were other passengers to be concerned about. Plus the other passengers were upset, which I am sure made things more difficult. I would totally understand if Dao wound up with something like bruises or some sort of minor muscle or joint injury, just from them trying to hang on to him and move him against his will. And if that happened, I would understand and I feel for the officers. Because United caused this situation to exist and then called the officers in when they decided that the situation had become a problem. So the officers were walking into a situation in which they were already the "bad guys" so to speak in the eyes of at least some of the passengers. And that sucks. It really does. But in that case, I think they needed to be extra patient, and extra communicative, and extra calm for the sake of everyone. And that isn't how things seemed to have happened at all. Save
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Post by JBeans on Apr 14, 2017 19:17:22 GMT
Here is another viewpoint that should shed some light on the matter: Pilot's commentsWhen you buy a airline ticket there are rules that are much different from other contracts, as mandated by federal law. Even if you don't agree with them, it is the law. It is obviously wrong that Dr. Dao was injured in the process but he was breaking federal law. Nah. All this "but regulation!" Is bullshit. This incident is result of a company time and time again, not listening to the customer and working the bare minimum within those regulations. This is a corporation that makes the most minuscule attempt at customer service and then passing the buck because "regulation!!!11" United needs a wholesale company culture shift. Take a lesson from airlines like Westjet. Those people have to be about the happiest bunch of people in the airport, try to Make a hectic flight schedule a little more bearable so when they have to drop shitty news, it stings a little less.
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Post by JBeans on Apr 14, 2017 20:17:55 GMT
One of the other passengers has stated in several interviews that United employees used no diplomacy whatsoever. They were demanding, demeaning, and quickly escalated the incident to the police. Diplomacy could have made all the difference. I refuse to victim blame. And that was my last experience with United. Long story,but it began with a flight attendant NOT LISTENING and she escalated it from there. It's not hard to open your fucking (yes I'm saying that word) ears and then using some rudimentary problem solving skills. This is customer service 101.
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Apr 14, 2017 20:36:11 GMT
One of the other passengers has stated in several interviews that United employees used no diplomacy whatsoever. They were demanding, demeaning, and quickly escalated the incident to the police. Diplomacy could have made all the difference. I refuse to victim blame. And that was my last experience with United. Long story,but it began with a flight attendant NOT LISTENING and she escalated it from there. It's not hard to open your fucking (yes I'm saying that word) ears and then using some rudimentary problem solving skills. This is customer service 101. I wonder if the horrible attitude you experienced is linked to the fact that Cabin Staff are only paid for the time the plane is actually in in the air. That might explain why so many of them just could not give one rats butt.
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Post by elaine on Apr 14, 2017 21:04:01 GMT
And that was my last experience with United. Long story,but it began with a flight attendant NOT LISTENING and she escalated it from there. It's not hard to open your fucking (yes I'm saying that word) ears and then using some rudimentary problem solving skills. This is customer service 101. I wonder if the horrible attitude you experienced is linked to the fact that Cabin Staff are only paid for the time the plane is actually in in the air. That might explain why so many of them just could not give one rats butt. Man, that sucks. And is wrong. The flight attendants should be paid from the moment that boarding begins until the last passenger de-planes, or when their duties end. Period.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 28, 2024 10:25:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 21:13:20 GMT
Lego - United Airlines Edition:
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