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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on May 31, 2017 7:03:41 GMT
MSP may have done Tonic a huge favor in increasing the demand for the Stamp Platform by holding back the supply for a while. I would love it if her greed karmically backfires and makes the Tonic tool even more desirable and sought after! You are one of the posters on NSBR and GS whose opinions I so often agree with and I don't necessarily disagree with you or the other posters here but I am troubled and I am quoting you to ask my Q. What say the peas about copying? I am NOT saying TH/ Tonic copied MSP (only mentioning the two most obvious players in the stamp positioner saga for convenience. I know there are others.) I am not saying karma shouldn't bite the non- customer friendly one. I am unable to comment whether one platform was derived from another or not but I seem to pick up on here that it is OK to change a few details of someone else's product, make it legal and put it out, as long as your product is superior and your customer service is great. I cannot agree. Again- I am not saying he-who-be-crafty-royalty did any copying. I am simply pointing out that original intellectual property (if it is original) should be respected whether it originated from a rotten human being or not. Copying should not happen, no matter how good and great the copy-ing person is. Altering something just enough to give a copied product legitimacy is prevalent, I know, but I disrespect that course of action. Have I read this thread, the gist of it, too harshly? Open cards: I have no dog in the crafty industry fight. I am a writer of workshops. My stock-in-trade is intellectual property which is copied, with or without alteration, by competitors and clients who wish to run them in other departments without paying repeats or royalties. I would never get anything done if I spent my time going after the "offenders". I take savage pleasure when they come unstuck by failing to religiously update legal content or spot some of the pitfalls which should be workshopped and debated, not just glossed over and accepted because they are on MY printed pages! I am recently retired, but I made a fair amount of money fixing the legal messes left behind by people who unthinkingly duplicated and "installed" my stuff. Nevertheless, I despise intellectual copy thieves, whatever industry they operate in and whether they are taking 1% or 99% of someone else's work. |
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 31, 2017 7:59:24 GMT
ScrapsontheRocks Pardon me for butting in but there have been many discussions about this already. I know I'm growing tired of having the same talk over and over again so I'm just going to redirect you to one of the threads in which the issue whether there is original intellectual property or not (spoiler alert: quite a few of us think not) is discussed. @zingermack participated in the linked thread as well.  @zingermack Accidental FOMO campaign straight from the enemy lines.  Tonic Studios must be wringing their hands with utter delight and TH laughing all the way to the bank after the crazy success of Oxide and now this.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on May 31, 2017 8:24:52 GMT
ScrapsontheRocks Pardon me for butting in but there have been many discussions about this already. I know I'm growing tired of having the same talk over and over again so I'm just going to redirect you to one of the threads in which the issue whether there is original intellectual property or not (spoiler alert: quite a few of us think not) is discussed. @zingermack participated in the linked thread as well. @zingermack Accidental FOMO campaign straight from the enemy lines. Tonic Studios must be wringing their hands with utter delight and TH laughing all the way to the bank after the crazy success of Oxide and now this. Thank You! Also apologies if this is indeed a dead, boring horse. I am off to read and I appreciate the spoiler, however, my question is about principle, not fact. Let us assume (I know, I know...) there has been clever adding/altering of feature x in product y, in industry z. What I want to know is whether this is judged ok, even celebrated a bit depending on the level of fame, level of customer service and general niceness of the accused? What I think I am picking up is that it is! If I am wrong, I will be back to apologize. ETA: I think the "feeling" I get is valid. No names, no pack drill though. I did not participate in the thread you linked but I am sure I have chatted on another one- IIRC I said something about Sizzix & other die cutting manus not having invented our favourite tools as huge versions of die cutters have been around in other industries prior to papercrafters needing them. My unease with the in principle issue dates back to then; I am sure there are a few more threads I need to review, possibly the whole thing has been talked to death. I would appreciate your view, more views though. |
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 31, 2017 9:04:41 GMT
Let us assume (I know, I know...) there has been clever adding/altering of feature x in product y, in industry z. What I want to know is whether this is judged ok, even celebrated a bit depending on the level of fame, level of customer service and general niceness of the accused? I think we're going to need to work overtime to "rationalise" the fact we have celebrated and rejoiced in the arrival of a serious contender for Misti's self-appointed crown and throne if we're going to pretend we're politically correct creatures... My "Sweet" Petunia's attitude in general has led to the amount of cheering for the other platforms. TH's improved design and price tag with the Tonic Studios association (and their customer service reputation) specifically have taken the underdog cake and ran with it despite themselves. They didn't even need to campaign or promote the product: MSP provided the building blocks and we just put together the logical narration. I have no problem with aspects such as level of fame. Certain brands/people/traditions/myths/etc. rise to a level of fame for good reason and work hard to maintain the same level of quality, respectability and integrity that led them to that position. I have continued to cheer on companies and people who have "made it" long after their top dog status was acquired or confirmed. However, for other brands/people/etc. the monopole of the market is the goal, not providing a good product and/or good service. In that case, one ought to expect a sudden and violent rocking of the boat at any moment. And as shown by this particular matter, the focus ought not to be on the a smaller boat somewhere behind but rather the waves coming from the masses. This is exactly what happened in this instance. MSP persecuted both manufacturers and retailers with cease & desist letters (while the questionable pattern was still pending), demanded YouTube videos of home-made platforms were taken down, tried every legal trick in the book to stop other ventures such as registering the name of a foreign stamp platform company to prevent their product from entering the US while selling an overpriced (and now made in China) cracking product with poor customer service. There is a certain taste of sweetness to what feels like well-deserved karma. It can't be helped. It's the good ol' lesson that you may find ways to use the law to prove yourself right but, ultimately, Justice serves itself in the world. We could enter debates on the principles of moral behaviour and such but why even bother? Yes, I find some pleasure in knowing that after the relentless attacks and petty battles, My "Sweet" Petunia may have lost the war. A sense of balance restored in the scrap universe, if you will. I've got three words for Iliana: Game. Of. Thrones.  However, my greatest joy in all this will would be the actual democratisation of the stamp platform in the form of a quality product with good customer service at an affordable price. And without the constant pecking at whomever dares to improve on it or make their own. |
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scrapnnana
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Post by scrapnnana on May 31, 2017 9:23:26 GMT
ScrapsontheRocks Pardon me for butting in but there have been many discussions about this already. I know I'm growing tired of having the same talk over and over again so I'm just going to redirect you to one of the threads in which the issue whether there is original intellectual property or not (spoiler alert: quite a few of us think not) is discussed. @zingermack participated in the linked thread as well. @zingermack Accidental FOMO campaign straight from the enemy lines. Tonic Studios must be wringing their hands with utter delight and TH laughing all the way to the bank after the crazy success of Oxide and now this. Thank You! Also apologies if this is indeed a dead, boring horse. I am off to read and I appreciate the spoiler, however, my question is about principle, not fact. Let us assume (I know, I know...) there has been clever adding/altering of feature x in product y, in industry z. What I want to know is whether this is judged ok, even celebrated a bit depending on the level of fame, level of customer service and general niceness of the accused? What I think I am picking up is that it is! If I am wrong, I will be back to apologize. ETA: I think the "feeling" I get is valid. No names, no pack drill though. I did not participate in the thread you linked but I am sure I have chatted on another one- IIRC I said something about Sizzix & other die cutting manus not having invented our favourite tools as huge versions of die cutters have been around in other industries prior to papercrafters needing them. My unease with the in principle issue dates back to then; I am sure there are a few more threads I need to review, possibly the whole thing has been talked to death. I would appreciate your view, more views though. While many are not happy with MSP for her poor customer service and some of the things she has said, this isn't so much an issue about hoping the "popular" crafter wins (although some individuals may feel that way). It's more that MSP did not invent something completely new. She altered an idea that had been around for awhile. She even referred to the WRMK letterpress in her patent application as a similar device. (Yes, I read the entire patent documentation that someone else linked.....two or three times). I believe whoever granted the patent should not have granted it, and that her lawsuit is over broad. She WAS justified in suing the company who produced an exact copy. All that company did was change the color. Another point made was that the law allows for "simultaneous design" by different parties. It takes quite awhile to get an idea to market. For Tonic to have come out with their version at CHA, it had to have been in the making a long time. Did they incorporate any aspects of the MISTI before the release at CHA? Possibly, which is probably the reason the US version had to be tweaked before release and why we in the US have to wait longer. On the other hand, has the hypocrisy and general attitude of MSP resulted in many crafters forming a Tonic cheering squad? Yup. I believe in intellectual property rights, but I think MSP has also tried to squash the intellectual property rights of others, not just those who copied her design. |
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on May 31, 2017 9:25:54 GMT
Let us assume (I know, I know...) there has been clever adding/altering of feature x in product y, in industry z. What I want to know is whether this is judged ok, even celebrated a bit depending on the level of fame, level of customer service and general niceness of the accused? I think we're going to need to work overtime to "rationalise" the fact we have celebrated and rejoiced in the arrival of a serious contender for Misti's self-appointed crown and throne if we're going to pretend we're politically correct creatures... My "Sweet" Petunia's attitude in general has led to the amount of cheering for the other platforms. TH's improved design and price tag with the Tonic Studios association (and their customer service reputation) specifically have taken the underdog cake and ran with it despite themselves. They didn't even need to campaign or promote the product: MSP provided the building blocks and we just put together the logical narration. I have no problem with aspects such as level of fame. Certain brands/people/traditions/myths/etc. rise to a level of fame for good reason and work hard to maintain the same level of quality, respectability and integrity that led them to that position. I have continued to cheer on companies and people who have "made it" long after their top dog status was acquired or confirmed. However, for other brands/people/etc. the monopole of the market is the goal, not providing a good product and/or good service. In that case, one ought to expect a sudden and violent rocking of the boat at any moment. And as shown by this particular matter, the focus ought not to be on the a smaller boat somewhere behind but rather the waves coming from the masses. This is exactly what happened in this instance. MSP persecuted both manufacturers and retailers with cease & desist letters (while the questionable pattern was still pending), demanded YouTube videos of home-made platforms were taken down, tried every legal trick in the book to stop other ventures such as registering the name of a foreign stamp platform company to prevent their product from entering the US while selling an overpriced (and now made in China) cracking product with poor customer service. There is a certain taste of sweetness to what feels like well-deserved karma. It can't be helped. It's the good ol' lesson that you may find ways to use the law to prove yourself right but, ultimately, Justice serves itself in the world. We could enter debates on the principles of moral behaviour and such but why even bother? Yes, I find some pleasure in knowing that after the relentless attacks and petty battles, My "Sweet" Petunia may have lost the war. A sense of balance restored in the scrap universe, if you will. I've got three words for Iliana: Game. Of. Thrones. However, my greatest joy in all this will would be the actual democratisation of the stamp platform in the form of a quality product with good customer service at an affordable price. And without the constant pecking at whomever dares to improve on it or make their own. Well argued! Well put indeed. I might send you a little pm, if you are interested, on some scrap industry copying where karma was involved, yet not fully served, Dang & Blast. I had better disclose though that I have not watched GOT, so maybe I should just be written off as a nutter |
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on May 31, 2017 9:42:45 GMT
Thank You! Also apologies if this is indeed a dead, boring horse. I am off to read and I appreciate the spoiler, however, my question is about principle, not fact. Let us assume (I know, I know...) there has been clever adding/altering of feature x in product y, in industry z. What I want to know is whether this is judged ok, even celebrated a bit depending on the level of fame, level of customer service and general niceness of the accused? What I think I am picking up is that it is! If I am wrong, I will be back to apologize. ETA: I think the "feeling" I get is valid. No names, no pack drill though. I did not participate in the thread you linked but I am sure I have chatted on another one- IIRC I said something about Sizzix & other die cutting manus not having invented our favourite tools as huge versions of die cutters have been around in other industries prior to papercrafters needing them. My unease with the in principle issue dates back to then; I am sure there are a few more threads I need to review, possibly the whole thing has been talked to death. I would appreciate your view, more views though. While many are not happy with MSP for her poor customer service and some of the things she has said, this isn't so much an issue about hoping the "popular" crafter wins (although some individuals may feel that way). It's more that MSP did not invent something completely new. She altered an idea that had been around for awhile. She even referred to the WRMK letterpress in her patent application as a similar device. (Yes, I read the entire patent documentation that someone else linked.....two or three times). I believe whoever granted the patent should not have granted it, and that her lawsuit is over broad. She WAS justified in suing the company who produced an exact copy. All that company did was change the color. Another point made was that the law allows for "simultaneous design" by different parties. It takes quite awhile to get an idea to market. For Tonic to have come out with their version at CHA, it had to have been in the making a long time. Did they incorporate any aspects of the MISTI before the release at CHA? Possibly, which is probably the reason the US version had to be tweaked before release and why we in the US have to wait longer. I found out a long time ago that some people don't care about intellectual property rights as long as they get what they Another very smart pea. Thank you! I suspect your last line was affected by a board glitch; you make a point that saddens me so much. I had exactly the same experience here- someone ripped off the very craft God we are discussing here. The retailers expressed outrage but were not willing to do anything about it, for two reasons: 1. They got almost identical product to sell at a cheaper price than the original (we are especially hard hit by forex over here, but FTR I have a different sorry tale to tell about a local paper company who started up to save us a couple of bucks but after a short while started inflating their prices, some of it costs more than imports, go figure! In fact, I think there are two). 2. One person involved in the copying is officially much-loved but the retailers I and a colleague in a different city spoke to are almost unanimous in saying she is a bully and not to be crossed. Sad. Scrappers bear less responsibility than industry insiders and I agree- we want our stuff! I would like to be able to think we are an ethical lot though. In fact this is what made me even madder about the copying thing- we are a small market but there are many talented people.The copycat is immensely talented but I can't be proud of her as having made it, as representing us, because I can't respect her any more. |
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 31, 2017 9:45:42 GMT
Well argued! Well put indeed. I might send you a little pm, if you are interested, on some scrap industry copying where karma was involved, yet not fully served, Dang & Blast. I had better disclose though that I have not watched GOT, so maybe I should just be written off as a nutter ![:laugh:]() PM away, you un-Gameofthroned loony!  Don't worry. You've only missed out on a lot of violence, nudity, drinking, sex, swearing, conspiracy, psychopathy, people getting killed at weddings, people getting killed on roads, people getting killed in battle, people getting killed on boats, people getting killed and then coming back to life, a big arse wall that would make Trump jealous, strange names, some wolves, a witch or two, a dragon or three, old folks saying obscure things, young folks doing obscure things and more people getting killed.  |
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Jun 1, 2017 14:46:52 GMT
I'm CHEAP AF, but I haven't preordered using cherries at ACOT because of the legal issues...not concerned that Tonic will lose (if so, they have terrible legal council or something sleazy is going on behind the scenes that we can't see) but I'm tempted to buy the overseas one just in case there are continued delays to the the US market and I'm tempted to find a way to support Tonic by buying one from overseas (plus, I think it looks awesome and I WANT IT). The cheapest I can find is somewhere around $53...ACOT would have been $27 or so...what's a girl to do?!
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Post by cbet on Jun 1, 2017 15:36:38 GMT
MSP may have done Tonic a huge favor in increasing the demand for the Stamp Platform by holding back the supply for a while. I would love it if her greed karmically backfires and makes the Tonic tool even more desirable and sought after! You are one of the posters on NSBR and GS whose opinions I so often agree with and I don't necessarily disagree with you or the other posters here but I am troubled and I am quoting you to ask my Q. What say the peas about copying? I am NOT saying TH/ Tonic copied MSP (only mentioning the two most obvious players in the stamp positioner saga for convenience. I know there are others.) I am not saying karma shouldn't bite the non- customer friendly one. I am unable to comment whether one platform was derived from another or not but I seem to pick up on here that it is OK to change a few details of someone else's product, make it legal and put it out, as long as your product is superior and your customer service is great. I cannot agree. Again- I am not saying he-who-be-crafty-royalty did any copying. I am simply pointing out that original intellectual property (if it is original) should be respected whether it originated from a rotten human being or not. Copying should not happen, no matter how good and great the copy-ing person is. Altering something just enough to give a copied product legitimacy is prevalent, I know, but I disrespect that course of action. Have I read this thread, the gist of it, too harshly? Open cards: I have no dog in the crafty industry fight. I am a writer of workshops. My stock-in-trade is intellectual property which is copied, with or without alteration, by competitors and clients who wish to run them in other departments without paying repeats or royalties. I would never get anything done if I spent my time going after the "offenders". I take savage pleasure when they come unstuck by failing to religiously update legal content or spot some of the pitfalls which should be workshopped and debated, not just glossed over and accepted because they are on MY printed pages! I am recently retired, but I made a fair amount of money fixing the legal messes left behind by people who unthinkingly duplicated and "installed" my stuff. Nevertheless, I despise intellectual copy thieves, whatever industry they operate in and whether they are taking 1% or 99% of someone else's work. I've been involved in a fair number of the MISTI threads, and got warned by the mods over at SplitCoast over something I said over there - that's my disclaimer, so you have an idea of my bias. I don't believe that just because someone is a likable underdog, that it is ok for them to copy someone else's intellectual property, even if that someone is a hosebeast. Even though I didn't feel that the MISTI was all that original an idea, it skeeved me out a little when the pretty much absolute copy was released by the overseas company. However, I guess I'm not that moral, because when Hampton Arts came out with theirs, I bought 2 of them because I was able to get them with a coupon for a very low price. Of course, by that time MSP had really revealed their unpleasant underbelly and I was able to justify my purchase as "sticking it to the man". I have the Tonic platform on preorder. Not as a statement against the MISTI, but because from everything I have seen of it, it is a far superior design (most certainly not a copy) and because other Tonic tools I own are incredibly well-made and I know from experience that they back their products if there is a problem with them. The thing with inventions in the papercraft world (as opposed to the workshops that you created) is that almost nothing is ~really~ new. Almost everything out there is changed or adapted from other tools; either from artists' tools, or from tools in a carpenter's workshop. I think it's pretty difficult to determine where the original has changed enough that you have something new. |
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Post by steakgoddess on Jun 2, 2017 4:58:37 GMT
I'm CHEAP AF, but I haven't preordered using cherries at ACOT because of the legal issues...not concerned that Tonic will lose (if so, they have terrible legal council or something sleazy is going on behind the scenes that we can't see) but I'm tempted to buy the overseas one just in case there are continued delays to the the US market and I'm tempted to find a way to support Tonic by buying one from overseas (plus, I think it looks awesome and I WANT IT). The cheapest I can find is somewhere around $53...ACOT would have been $27 or so...what's a girl to do?! Well, I preordered at ACOT and ordered the overseas one off of eBay. It should arrive by Tuesday. Have no idea what I'm going to do with both of them, but dang it feels good to finally get one. Ironically, the cost is what made me balk at the MISTI in the first place (before the whole customer service and patent drama). Now, I think I've spent the same amount ordering two Tonics. |
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Jun 2, 2017 14:49:19 GMT
I'm CHEAP AF, but I haven't preordered using cherries at ACOT because of the legal issues...not concerned that Tonic will lose (if so, they have terrible legal council or something sleazy is going on behind the scenes that we can't see) but I'm tempted to buy the overseas one just in case there are continued delays to the the US market and I'm tempted to find a way to support Tonic by buying one from overseas (plus, I think it looks awesome and I WANT IT). The cheapest I can find is somewhere around $53...ACOT would have been $27 or so...what's a girl to do?! Well, I preordered at ACOT and ordered the overseas one off of eBay. It should arrive by Tuesday. Have no idea what I'm going to do with both of them, but dang it feels good to finally get one. Ironically, the cost is what made me balk at the MISTI in the first place (before the whole customer service and patent drama). Now, I think I've spent the same amount ordering two Tonics. Ah yes, but you will get TWO and quality customer service from a company that actually backs their product instead of just one from a company that prides itself on blaming customers for the breaking of a low quality tool that wasn't made to stand up to normal use. |
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Jun 2, 2017 15:23:55 GMT
All the 'Tim is a thief' sh!t on facebook is really making me want to buy the overseas one. It's pissing me off so much. Miss greedy should never have been granted her patent in the first place because of how vague it is. You can't patent AN IDEA.
Proving she didn't invent the concept of a stamp positioner could actually invalidate her patent completely. You can't patent something that you didn't invent and I'm fairly certain that DIY stamp positioners (many using DVD cases and the letterpress) were done well before hers was created. It's hard to prove, but it's something that hopefully Tonic is gathering evidence of in order to use against her in court. She'd have to counter with evidence that she came up with the idea before the DIY versions showed up on the internet, from what I'm reading. I'm not a patent attorney (it looks like we have a pea who specializes in patents who'd definitely know more than me) but that's what I found just searching around on the web.
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Post by cbet on Jun 2, 2017 16:06:01 GMT
I posted this somewhere here on a different post: www.scrapbookupdate.com/2011/10/12/letterpress-l-letterpress-from-lifestyle-crafts/ It's a blog entry from October of 2011 showing the WRMK L Letterpress platform as a stamp press. WAYY before the MISTI came out. I'm not saying the MISTI isn't an improvement - the edges for aligning things in the same place every time and the magnetic base is nice, but essentially, it's the same. damn. thing. So how is Tim a thief and MSP isn't? And if her argument is that she never saw that post, it certainly should have been found when they were doing whatever searches one does before one goes thru the expense and hassle of applying for a patent. |
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Jun 2, 2017 17:04:47 GMT
All the 'Tim is a thief' sh!t on facebook is really making me want to buy the overseas one. It's pissing me off so much. Miss greedy should never have been granted her patent in the first place because of how vague it is. You can't patent AN IDEA. I'm assuming you've seen the same FB post(s) as me over at Scrapaholics?. Thankfully there it seems there was only one or two people who thought that, everyone else was defending the Tonic one and pointing out why it wasn't in violation. Saying that, I'm grateful for the thread. I didn't realise you could buy it currently so picked one up on eBay today.  Luckily I'm in the UK, so it's not too pricey. Yep. Generally if a company has a bad reputation, it's for good reason. Generally, if a company has a good reputation, it's for good reason. Anyone who lives with their head not buried in the sand can tell the difference between MSP and Tonic/Tim to know which is the better company AND it doesn't take much inspecting to realize the differences between the devices. Do they accomplish similar things? Yes. Do they do so in the same manner? Not even slightly. I love the Tonic one because it has embedded grid lines AND because it's made out of a better (looking, at least) plastic. Acrylic isn't meant to be pressed on the way you need to press on a stamp, hence the issues with cracking with even basic use. I'm sure MSP knows this after having made them (and used them) for as long as she has, but she doesn't care because it just means that people have to return to buy more. There's only so much of that we, the consumers, are going to take, especially at such a high cost before we are seeking out alternatives that either give us what we pay for or are less expensive and more easy to replace when an inevitable break occurs. I have high hopes for the Tonic one, but I am concerned that if shipments don't start going out to retailers in the states soon that there is a good chance we won't see it here until the litigation is completed. As I said, I don't expect MSP to win (and best case scenario, she'll lose her patent altogether by behaving as she is and drawing so much attention to the fact that her patent is questionable anyway), but I'm not a patient person and want it now, now, now!! LoL! |
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Post by cbet on Jun 2, 2017 17:36:06 GMT
Oh yes, scrapaddict702, I feel like Veruca Salt here - I want it NOW!!! And I have several of the other type, so it's not like I don't have something to use in the meantime. I'm all about the instant gratification.
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Post by riley on Jun 3, 2017 8:43:59 GMT
My concern is that she is asking for a jury trial. That could go in her favor if she presents herself as the little guy fighting the big company that stole her idea. A jury might be sympathetic to that. They are still going back and forth on moving the trial to California. It has been mentioned that patent infringement trials are often very long and convoluted, and they have been stuck on little pretrial details since April. I'm not sure if Tonic can release their product until this is resolved. Is the tweaking thing going to make the whole lawsuit invalid or what? Seems like Tonic would have to make some pretty big changes. The filing lists every detail of both products and makes multiple comparisons.
I have a replaced MISTI and so far so good. Mine was one of the cracking ones that was still under warranty when I noticed it. If MSP wins that means that the many people who are limping along with cracked ones because they missed the warranty period or were refused a replacement have no choice but to buy another MISTI and hope for the best. If my Stanely Steamer died early I might want to buy a Honda the next time around, not another Stanley Steamer.
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Post by Skellinton on Jun 3, 2017 14:31:33 GMT
If they do go to trial, can Tonic bring up the previous existing letterpress to show that the technology existed prior to the existence of the Misti?
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Deleted
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Nov 26, 2024 7:50:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 15:44:07 GMT
If they do go to trial, can Tonic bring up the previous existing letterpress to show that the technology existed prior to the existence of the Misti? I sure as sh#($* hope so. The thing that fries me most about this entire episode, other than MGP's greed and nastiness, is that she claims this as a new machine. It's not. Hasn't been for centuries. She made the letterpress better. Period. Now Tonic has made the Misti better. That's how tools work. Or we wouldn't have 57 variations of guillotine trimmers. |
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Post by riley on Jun 3, 2017 16:16:58 GMT
It would make sense to display and demo all the ones that have gone before.. There was one sold in the U.K. years ago that was so similar except for the magnets.
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oaksong
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,167
Location: LA Suburbia
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Jun 27, 2014 6:24:29 GMT
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Post by oaksong on Jun 3, 2017 21:27:11 GMT
It all makes me wonder if MISTI is risking losing their patent by going to a jury trial. I agree that it seems preposterous she got one in the first place. Don't you wish you knew what was going on behind the scenes?
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Post by bluecrafterperson on Jun 3, 2017 21:57:45 GMT
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oaksong
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,167
Location: LA Suburbia
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Jun 27, 2014 6:24:29 GMT
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Post by oaksong on Jun 3, 2017 22:22:18 GMT
Thanks for sharing this well written article. It does appear that there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Just because a jury trial was requested doesn't mean it will be granted. That seems a little extreme for this kind of case. I found it interesting that she may use comments from bloggers who demo'd early releases of Tonic's platform as evidence that it infringes her patent. Someone saying "This works like the MISTI" isn't exactly proof. "The MISTI works like the WRMK letterpress" might be an appropriate rebuttal to that argument. |
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Post by sleepingbooty on Jun 3, 2017 22:54:43 GMT
Or we wouldn't have 57 variations of guillotine trimmers. You know, the French should just sue all these guillotine trimmer makers over the guillotine concept. And the trimmers all use the original French straight blade too, not the improvement the Italians made with the slant blade a few years after the French Revolution took place. (oh, the glorious gory stuff you learn as a French kid in History class) I'm not well-versed on the subject of US law so unaware of how much of a chance My "Sweet" Petunia stands. And which reasons would push the company to refuse the trial to take place in California rather than Delaware? Are there law differences between both states that could make the trial swing in Tonic Studios' favour? We need law folks in this thread, stat. |
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Jun 4, 2017 3:59:11 GMT
It all makes me wonder if MISTI is risking losing their patent by going to a jury trial. I agree that it seems preposterous she got one in the first place. Don't you wish you knew what was going on behind the scenes? One of the linked threads discussed a court case over Spellbinders patent...ultimately, they lost and the patent was tossed out. I'm sure that there is a (good, possibly) chance that were she to lose (which would be the outcome I expect...the Spellbinders case could be brought in as precedent, no?) she would lose her long awaited patent as well. I'm sure her legal team is a bunch of sleazeballs considering their willingness to threaten run of the mill people for making DIY versions of A stamp press (not HER stamp press) and sharing photos and videos of the process. This could be spreading rumor, but weren't there talks about some of her cease and desist letters going to people who had been showing how to make them BEFORE hers went to market, STILL citing her patent that was pending (which has no legal protection)? I swear that I had read that somewhere, but this drama has been discussed in so many places, I can't cite sources. If someone else has links to confirm, that would be nice, for sure!! |
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Jun 4, 2017 4:49:10 GMT
Or we wouldn't have 57 variations of guillotine trimmers. You know, the French should just sue all these guillotine trimmer makers over the guillotine concept. And the trimmers all use the original French straight blade too, not the improvement the Italians made with the slant blade a few years after the French Revolution took place. (oh, the glorious gory stuff you learn as a French kid in History class) I'm not well-versed on the subject of US law so unaware of how much of a chance My "Sweet" Petunia stands. And which reasons would push the company to refuse the trial to take place in California rather than Delaware? Are there law differences between both states that could make the trial swing in Tonic Studios' favour? We need law folks in this thread, stat. I am not trained in US law either and hope the US peas will respond with some specifics about Calif vs Delaware; as a general principle, contractual and commercial law place a lot of emphasis on "domicile" hence the lawsuit must be filed where the company is incorporated. Should there be different laws/ regulations operational in another state and should one of the parties wish to take advantage of these, this is known as "forum shopping" and I cannot support it. Should this not be forum shopping, if the laws and regs are uniform regarding the issues at stake, a change of of venue might be requested for reasons of convenience; the main operations of the company may be in a different place, the executives involved may not want to be away from their place of business for a protracted period. This may not be convenient for the other party though. ETA: on the other hand, this could simply be standard lawyers' nonsense-attempting to buy time, rattle the opposition, lots of motions mean lots of fees and so on. ETA2: help me out, please USA peas: MSP is in Illinois, correct? So suing in Delaware entails extra costs for them. I don't know where Tonic "physically" is- manufacturing, H/O whatever- are they in California? Is it advantageous to incorporate yourself in Delaware (for tax reasons, for e.g. or did the company physically start up there but have now grown and moved about? |
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scrapnnana
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Post by scrapnnana on Jun 4, 2017 21:23:20 GMT
I read somewhere that Tonic was incorporated in Delaware. I assumed that meant that is where their business officially started.
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oaksong
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Jun 27, 2014 6:24:29 GMT
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Post by oaksong on Jun 5, 2017 0:20:49 GMT
Nancy Nally's article says they're incorporated in Delaware, but operate in California. For international Peas, Delaware has very favorable corporate tax laws, so many companies choose to incorporate there. The patent laws are federal, so they would apply in any state. I would imagine the issue with moving the trial to California is a cost issue for Tonic, to avoid cross-country travel for every appearance the court may require, especially if it goes to a jury trial.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Jun 5, 2017 4:48:24 GMT
Nancy Nally's article says they're incorporated in Delaware, but operate in California. For international Peas, Delaware has very favorable corporate tax laws, so many companies choose to incorporate there. The patent laws are federal, so they would apply in any state. I would imagine the issue with moving the trial to California is a cost issue for Tonic, to avoid cross-country travel for every appearance the court may require, especially if it goes to a jury trial. Thank you. Again, I am not taking a position on the merits or the morals, just the legal stuff. The plaintiff is in Illinois, I think, not able to choose where she takes action or appears. She must sue where her opponent has chosen to incorporate, possibly to enjoy said tax regime. She must use a lawyer across in Delaware or double down on costs by using one local to her who instructs a colleague in Delaware. She must do so in order to comply with domicile. As as the patent laws are Federal, no advantage there. The defendant's request to move the trial to California may not be any more or less convenient for her. Unless she has to change the Delaware legal team (who are already fully conversant with the case) or add a California team, or pay travel costs for the Delaware and or Illinois team to appear in California each time... Sounds like lots of extra fees to me. These things quickly get even messier. |
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scrapnnana
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Post by scrapnnana on Jun 5, 2017 13:41:16 GMT
Sometimes when a lawsuit is brought, the sued party will settle out of court. The other companies responded to her cease and desist orders, if I understood correctly, so it's possible that she was confident that Tonic would settle out of court and not go forward with the lawsuit.
When a jury trial is requested, it is often in the hopes that the jury will be more sympathetic to the "wronged party" than a judge or judge panel. When choosing jury members, the lawyers try to get jury members they think will be partial to their side. They do this based on the questions asked potential jury members prior to selection. Since women tend to be more sympathetic in general, MSP lawyers will probably try to get as many sympathetic seeming women on the jury.
I honestly think that MSP and her lawyers underestimated Tonic and thought this would never actually go to trial.
I am glad that Tonic stood up to MSP and her bully tactics. I really hope that Tonic wins. But it could potentially drag out for a long time, depending on what happens.
Whether the motion to move the trial to a different state was for convenience or for other reasons, it still has the potential to keep delaying the release of the Tonic Stamp Positioner here in the states.
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Tonic Studios must be wringing their hands with utter delight and TH laughing all the way to the bank after the crazy success of Oxide and now this. 
Luckily I'm in the UK, so it's not too pricey. 
