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Post by monicad on Jun 21, 2017 20:40:58 GMT
I'd think I'd know exactly what to do if I'd been pulled over that many times. I agree with you, I think he did know what to do which makes it even more unlikely he didn't follow the orders of his murderer. Do you think there is anything unjust regarding the number of times he had been pulled over? I don't know the answer to that. From I've read about Philando Castile, I do believe it's possible that some of these stops were not deserved and may not have happened if he wasn't black. Around here, small towns are notorious for pulling people over no matter what color you are. From the incident in question, I personally don't believe there was anything to suggest Mr. Castile had any intention of pulling a gun. He was upfront about it, polite, and I believe was reaching for his wallet as he was instructed to do. Given all of that, it's difficult to understand why he didn't stop when he was instructed. I wasn't there and didn't see what the officer saw. The jurors in the case didn't either. We can only make assumptions. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 21, 2017 20:43:22 GMT
Since you've placed yourself in Castile shoes how would you respond to an officer if you had been pulled over 46 times in your driving career. Keep in mind the age of Castile when he was murdered. I'd think I'd know exactly what to do if I'd been pulled over that many times. Well, blonde white lady, you'll probably never be pulled over that many times, so enjoy that privilege. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 21, 2017 20:44:21 GMT
He had handed him the registration. He was reaching for his license. You don't know that for certain. No, I do not, but that lack of certainty should not have ended in someone's death. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jun 21, 2017 20:46:51 GMT
It appears the stops were warranted as he was a bad driver. If I was in his shoes I wouldn't have a concealed weapon. As a black man carrying a gun I would have pulled out my license from my back pocket before the police officer came to my car to avoid it looking like anything else. Or I would have kept my hands on my steering wheel at all times and asked the officer how would he prefer I extract my license which is next to my gun? I've taken the concealed carry class in my state and that is exactly what we were taught to do. Did you watch the live video or the dash cam? I can not watch the dash cam but in the live video that is what his partner claims he did. She can be heard in the live video recording saying something along the lines of "You told him to reach for his license" He can also be heard letting the officer know he has a gun and a license to carry it. What happened to bravery and good judgement being something we expect from the police. The officer pulls over a family with a broken taillight and everything he learned at the academy results in the death of Castile? And we are okay with this as Americans? Did he expect a man with his wife and child in the car to alert him to the presence of a weapon and then shoot him in cold blood? Where is his fucking judgement and why isn't he held accountable for his poor choices. You want to hold Castile responsible and make the punishment of not placing his hands on the wheel a death sentence. |
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tduby1
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Post by tduby1 on Jun 21, 2017 20:50:55 GMT
It appears the stops were warranted as he was a bad driver. If I was in his shoes I wouldn't have a concealed weapon. As a black man carrying a gun I would have pulled out my license from my back pocket before the police officer came to my car to avoid it looking like anything else. Or I would have kept my hands on my steering wheel at all times and asked the officer how would he prefer I extract my license which is next to my gun? I think we are getting too comfortable with this idea that black people have to behave differently in order to live. (Fwiw: This statement carries no judgment of either one of you) this exchange was poignant. |
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Post by monicad on Jun 21, 2017 20:56:28 GMT
I've taken the concealed carry class in my state and that is exactly what we were taught to do. Did you watch the live video or the dash cam? I can not watch the dash cam but in the live video that is what his partner claims he did. She can be heard in the live video recording saying something along the lines of "You told him to reach for his license" He can also be heard letting the officer know he has a gun and a license to carry it. What happened to bravery and good judgement being something we expect from the police. The officer pulls over a family with a broken taillight and everything he learned at the academy results in the death of Castile? And we are okay with this as Americans? Did he expect a man with his wife and child in the car to alert him to the presence of a weapon and then shoot him in cold blood? Where is his fucking judgement and why isn't he held accountable for his poor choices. You want to hold Castile responsible and make the punishment of not placing his hands on the wheel a death sentence. No, but the jury can only go by what the law says. I don't agree with how he (the officer) handled the situation...at all. I don't agree that he should have been let off with no charges against him. My intention wasn't to blame Castile, and I apologize if that's how I came across. Of course it's easy to look back after the fact and assume or wonder things; my point was trying to understand the verdict from a legal perspective. |
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Jun 21, 2017 20:58:53 GMT
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 21, 2017 21:11:32 GMT
I think we are getting too comfortable with this idea that black people have to behave differently in order to live. (Fwiw: This statement carries no judgment of either one of you) this exchange was poignant. Isn't that the absolute truth? Man. |
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Post by mnmloveli on Jun 21, 2017 21:29:01 GMT
Such a horrible situation. The dash cam video shows Mr Castile handing the officer some sort of identification before the shooting. It does make we wonder what he was reaching for after that especially when, after the officer received the I.D., the officer told him 3 times to stop reaching. So sad.
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Post by mnmloveli on Jun 21, 2017 21:33:02 GMT
I am wondering that myself. Castile was reaching for his drivers' license, requested by the officer. Requested by every officer ever whenever you're pulled over. I guess Castile's mistake was his honesty about having a firearm? The officer assumed he was reaching for the weapon instead of for his license (which he requested). The dash cam video shows Mr Castile had already handed the officer some sort of I.D. when he starts reaching again and is told 3 times to stop reaching or pulling something out. Horrible situation. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 21, 2017 21:39:21 GMT
Castile was reaching for his drivers' license, requested by the officer. Requested by every officer ever whenever you're pulled over. I guess Castile's mistake was his honesty about having a firearm? The officer assumed he was reaching for the weapon instead of for his license (which he requested). The dash cam video shows Mr Castile had already handed the officer some sort of I.D. when he starts reaching again and is told 3 times to stop reaching or pulling something out. Horrible situation. Yanez had Castile's registration in his pocket after the shooting. Yanez's own words afterwards indicate he had asked Castile for his license right before he shot him. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 21, 2017 21:39:59 GMT
Such a horrible situation. The dash cam video shows Mr Castile handing the officer some sort of identification before the shooting. It does make we wonder what he was reaching for after that especially when, after the officer received the I.D., the officer told him 3 times to stop reaching. So sad. HE DID NOT GET HIS ID. Castile's ID and gun license were still in his wallet after the shooting. |
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Post by mnmloveli on Jun 21, 2017 21:49:56 GMT
The dash cam video shows Mr Castile had already handed the officer some sort of I.D. when he starts reaching again and is told 3 times to stop reaching or pulling something out. Horrible situation. Yanez had Castile's registration in his pocket after the shooting. Yanez's own words afterwards indicate he had asked Castile for his license right before he shot him. Ok so Castile handed him his registration. Castile then announced he has a gun. Ofiicer Yanez then told Castile 3 times to stop reaching. Castile kept reaching and was shot. |
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jun 21, 2017 21:52:13 GMT
Since you've placed yourself in Castile shoes how would you respond to an officer if you had been pulled over 46 times in your driving career. Keep in mind the age of Castile when he was murdered. It appears the stops were warranted as he was a bad driver. If I was in his shoes I wouldn't have a concealed weapon. As a black man carrying a gun I would have pulled out my license from my back pocket before the police officer came to my car to avoid it looking like anything else. Or I would have kept my hands on my steering wheel at all times and asked the officer how would he prefer I extract my license which is next to my gun? As a light skinned Mexican I have been pulled over for: snow on my license plate a cracked windshield (he was behind me) tape on my tail light speeding - repeatedly a broken headlight speeding but I wasn't, it was NY Eve and they were just checking for drunk drivers I have paid thousands of dollars in fines. As someone that has been pulled over many times, I would have pulled out my license and registration before the officer got to my window. |
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scrappinspidey2
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Post by scrappinspidey2 on Jun 21, 2017 22:03:16 GMT
As someone that has been pulled over many times, I would have pulled out my license and registration before the officer got to my window. This goes against everything I have been taught to do and what listening to my late husband and his co workers talk about. I was always taught that when you are pulled over, you keep your hands on the wheel so the officers can see them as they approach the vehicle. When they ask for license and registration, tell them where they are before reaching for them and wait for them to tell you. In CCW class, the training was never use the word gun as it is a trigger word of warning that they use for each other. You say you have a firearm/weapon in the vehicle and that you have a CCW permit. You then WAIT for them to instruct you what to do. Again, still not watching the videos etc. Just responding to several similar comments about having information ready before the officer approaches the vehicle. |
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Post by myshelly on Jun 21, 2017 23:00:50 GMT
As someone that has been pulled over many times, I would have pulled out my license and registration before the officer got to my window. This goes against everything I have been taught to do and what listening to my late husband and his co workers talk about. I was always taught that when you are pulled over, you keep your hands on the wheel so the officers can see them as they approach the vehicle. When they ask for license and registration, tell them where they are before reaching for them and wait for them to tell you. In CCW class, the training was never use the word gun as it is a trigger word of warning that they use for each other. You say you have a firearm/weapon in the vehicle and that you have a CCW permit. You then WAIT for them to instruct you what to do. Again, still not watching the videos etc. Just responding to several similar comments about having information ready before the officer approaches the vehicle. Absolutely! Reaching for your ID while the officer walks to the window is also against what the instructor teaches you in a concealed carry class. You put your hands on the wheel and keep them in plain sight. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 21, 2017 23:16:38 GMT
If anyone is worried about watching the video because they fear it's graphic- it's not. You can see the officer at the window and the car, but you really can't see inside the vehicle at all. You can absolutely hear gunshots, but there is no visibility to any injury inside the car.
I am one who likes to see things for myself, so just wanted to put it out there if anyone was hesitating to watch for that reason.
One thing you gain from seeing the actual video is how quickly the officer reacted to hearing there was a gun in the car and how quickly he shot the suspect. I am not actually sure the victim would have had time to stop reaching for his wallet before he was being shot. It happened that quickly. I believe the victim was trying to grab his wallet and the officer heard gun and went into panic mode and shot him fearing for his life. I don't think he approached the car planning on shooting anyone, and I also don't think he had reasonable cause to fear for his life. ONLY based on the video evidence, I would have convicted him of voluntary manslaughter - but I have not seen a shred of other evidence presented in court.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 21, 2017 23:19:03 GMT
As someone that has been pulled over many times, I would have pulled out my license and registration before the officer got to my window. This goes against everything I have been taught to do and what listening to my late husband and his co workers talk about. I was always taught that when you are pulled over, you keep your hands on the wheel so the officers can see them as they approach the vehicle. When they ask for license and registration, tell them where they are before reaching for them and wait for them to tell you. In CCW class, the training was never use the word gun as it is a trigger word of warning that they use for each other. You say you have a firearm/weapon in the vehicle and that you have a CCW permit. You then WAIT for them to instruct you what to do. Again, still not watching the videos etc. Just responding to several similar comments about having information ready before the officer approaches the vehicle. He actually says I have a firearm on me - not gun. |
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Jun 22, 2017 0:43:16 GMT
I have not read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been discussed.
I was once a witness in a murder trial. I am 100% certain the person on trial was 100% guilty. I know this because she admitted it. However, the defending attorney introduced an element of doubt that the jury obviously bought even though there was expert testimony that made it crystal clear that this doubt was absolutely false. There must be NO reasonable doubt. If there is a modicum of reasonable doubt, even if it is small and even if not true, the jury cannot convict.
I saw the video and it seems clear to me that this was early (what happened to put your hands up first?) and excessive. I have empathy for the police officer, knowing he had to make a split second decision, but I do think he deviated from his training and that killed someone. I know what happens in my profession when that occurs. This is the equivalent of law enforcement malpractice, in my book.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jun 22, 2017 1:06:48 GMT
As someone that has been pulled over many times, I would have pulled out my license and registration before the officer got to my window. This goes against everything I have been taught to do and what listening to my late husband and his co workers talk about. I was always taught that when you are pulled over, you keep your hands on the wheel so the officers can see them as they approach the vehicle. When they ask for license and registration, tell them where they are before reaching for them and wait for them to tell you. In CCW class, the training was never use the word gun as it is a trigger word of warning that they use for each other. You say you have a firearm/weapon in the vehicle and that you have a CCW permit. You then WAIT for them to instruct you what to do. Again, still not watching the videos etc. Just responding to several similar comments about having information ready before the officer approaches the vehicle. Since I don't carry and since I have never taken a gun class, I was just telling the person I quoted what I would do as someone that has been pulled over many times  Since you do carry and have taken a class then you would do as you have been taught |
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scrappinspidey2
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Post by scrappinspidey2 on Jun 22, 2017 1:17:30 GMT
Since you do carry and have taken a class then you would do as you have been taught actually it is what I was taught to do BEFORE i ever took a CCW class. I was trained from day one to keep my hands on the wheel until otherwise told to do so. I was 16 when I started driving. My daughter, now 18, said her instructor also told her the same thing. Time and time again I heard my husband and his coworkers talk about people not keeping their hands on the wheel when approached by a cop. From this thread I see that maybe its a difference in how people are taught to drive and what to do when pulled over? |
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luckyexwife
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Post by luckyexwife on Jun 22, 2017 1:50:50 GMT
Since you do carry and have taken a class then you would do as you have been taught actually it is what I was taught to do BEFORE i ever took a CCW class. I was trained from day one to keep my hands on the wheel until otherwise told to do so. I was 16 when I started driving. My daughter, now 18, said her instructor also told her the same thing. Time and time again I heard my husband and his coworkers talk about people not keeping their hands on the wheel when approached by a cop. From this thread I see that maybe its a difference in how people are taught to drive and what to do when pulled over? I was taught the same as you by my parents, and by my driving instructor. Always keep your hands where the police can see them, and wait for their instructions as to what to do. I distinctly remember my driving instructor saying that if we were reaching for our license, the police couldn't see where hands were, and had no idea if we are reaching for license or some kind of weapon. I took my driver's training in the 90s, and that's what I was taught then. |
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Post by cindyupnorth on Jun 22, 2017 2:01:40 GMT
I think it was also entered in to the trail that when Castile rolled down the window, there was a strong odor or marijuana. This could have put the officer on edge too, as stated. Everything did happen very fast.
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Post by peasapie on Jun 22, 2017 10:01:09 GMT
If the officer said, don't pull it out, and it were me, I would stand there with my hands up and say, "officer, my license is in my pocket. May I reach in for it". Did he do that?
Instead of all the Sunday morning quarterbacks analyzing what should have happened, perhaps folks need to get involved in their towns to insist on training in exactly how to respond if pulled over, in order to save lives. I'm sad Mr Castile died in this way and wish more community leaders were offering workshops in what to do -- and not to do -- when pulled over.
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Post by peasapie on Jun 22, 2017 10:07:15 GMT
This goes against everything I have been taught to do and what listening to my late husband and his co workers talk about. I was always taught that when you are pulled over, you keep your hands on the wheel so the officers can see them as they approach the vehicle. When they ask for license and registration, tell them where they are before reaching for them and wait for them to tell you. In CCW class, the training was never use the word gun as it is a trigger word of warning that they use for each other. You say you have a firearm/weapon in the vehicle and that you have a CCW permit. You then WAIT for them to instruct you what to do. Again, still not watching the videos etc. Just responding to several similar comments about having information ready before the officer approaches the vehicle. Absolutely! Reaching for your ID while the officer walks to the window is also against what the instructor teaches you in a concealed carry class. You put your hands on the wheel and keep them in plain sight. Correct, and this is long known. I trained my (white) kids to do this when they started driving. You do NOTHING that could make a police officer think you are reaching for a gun. Don't reach anywhere for anything without permission. Community members need to organize training on this because knowledge saves lives. |
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tduby1
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Post by tduby1 on Jun 22, 2017 10:22:02 GMT
This goes against everything I have been taught to do and what listening to my late husband and his co workers talk about. I was always taught that when you are pulled over, you keep your hands on the wheel so the officers can see them as they approach the vehicle. When they ask for license and registration, tell them where they are before reaching for them and wait for them to tell you. In CCW class, the training was never use the word gun as it is a trigger word of warning that they use for each other. You say you have a firearm/weapon in the vehicle and that you have a CCW permit. You then WAIT for them to instruct you what to do. Again, still not watching the videos etc. Just responding to several similar comments about having information ready before the officer approaches the vehicle. Since I don't carry and since I have never taken a gun class, I was just telling the person I quoted what I would do as someone that has been pulled over many times Since you do carry and have taken a class then you would do as you have been taught My exposure to gun is limited- as in none. However, I have always been taught, hands on wheel until otherwise instructed. I've also been taught NOT to be rooting around the car as the officer approaches. The he fact is, gun or no gun, he did everything 100% correctly. And he's still dead and I can't wrap my head around that. |
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tduby1
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Post by tduby1 on Jun 22, 2017 10:31:20 GMT
Absolutely! Reaching for your ID while the officer walks to the window is also against what the instructor teaches you in a concealed carry class. You put your hands on the wheel and keep them in plain sight. Correct, and this is long known. I trained my (white) kids to do this when they started driving. You do NOTHING that could make a police officer think you are reaching for a gun. Don't reach anywhere for anything without permission. Community members need to organize training on this because knowledge saves lives. He DIDNT reach for anything without permission. He reached when the officer asked! He also mentioned his fire arm at the same time and the officer started screaming, "don't grab it" and both he and his passenger said he wasn't AS the officer shot him. He didn't even have time to quit reaching for wallet, that the officer asks for. He had the knowledge, he used the knowledge, he's still dead and now he's being blamed, too. |
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tduby1
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Post by tduby1 on Jun 22, 2017 10:37:08 GMT
Absolutely! Reaching for your ID while the officer walks to the window is also against what the instructor teaches you in a concealed carry class. You put your hands on the wheel and keep them in plain sight. Correct, and this is long known. I trained my (white) kids to do this when they started driving. You do NOTHING that could make a police officer think you are reaching for a gun. Don't reach anywhere for anything without permission. Community members need to organize training on this because knowledge saves lives. And he did this correctly. Waited for officer to approach the vehicle, did not reach for anything until asked. Perhaps, the training should be organized for law enforcement officers who panic and start shooting when someone follows protocol 100%, right down to calmly informing him of his legal firearm and even using the correct and safe terminology that he had been taught would keep him from getting shot. He followed the rules 100%. The officer did not. The victim bears no blame here and the officer being aquited does not somehow make the victim guilty. |
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tduby1
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Post by tduby1 on Jun 22, 2017 10:42:43 GMT
If the officer said, don't pull it out, and it were me, I would stand there with my hands up and say, "officer, my license is in my pocket. May I reach in for it". Did he do that?
Instead of all the Sunday morning quarterbacks analyzing what should have happened, perhaps folks need to get involved in their towns to insist on training in exactly how to respond if pulled over, in order to save lives. I'm sad Mr Castile died in this way and wish more community leaders were offering workshops in what to do -- and not to do -- when pulled over. Have you even seen the video. Yes, yes, that is the general gist of what happened. The officer asked for ID, as he was reaching for it mentioned the "firearm" in a non threatening way, using the correct terminology. The officer started screaming not to reach for it, he said he wasn't and BEFORE he could even stop reaching for the ID he was asked for he was shot! The officer didn't even give him a chance to to stop. He screamed, dont reach for it, he and the girlfriend said he's not and he was dead. He did not make a move until the officer asked him to. He was FULLY trained in how to react when pulled and did everything correctly. You were actually answering a post that said that. Someone criticized him for NOT having his cards ready when the officer approached the window and they were told he wasn't supposed to. He was supposed wait until asked, which is what he did. And he's still dead. You shouldn't be sad he died in this way, you should be furious. He didn't need a workshop! He followed protocol. It was the officer who did not. |
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scrappinspidey2
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Post by scrappinspidey2 on Jun 22, 2017 14:23:05 GMT
The officer asked for ID, as he was reaching for it mentioned the "firearm" in a non threatening way, using the correct terminology. You are not the only one to use this phrasing, but you are the last one so I quoted you.....If he mentioned the firearm AS he was reaching, then no, he didn't do it correctly. You do not mention a firearm while reaching for anything. You keep your hands on the wheel, in plain site, and state something along the lines of "before I reach for my license, I need to inform you I have a weapon in the vehicle and I have a CCW. The firearm is (insert location). Then you wait again for instructions from the officer. Reaching for something while you are informing them of the weapon is a recipe for disaster. **eta**Im not blaming the victim or the officer. I wasn't there. I didn't attend the trial, I haven't watched the news or seen the videos. The only reason I jumped in was that there seems to be different ways everyone has been taught on what to do when pulled over by the police. Someone asked why there isn't more information about what to do when pulled over. My daughter was handed a pamphlet with her brand new license that is designed specifically to answer that question. What to do if you get pulled over. It also states keeping hands in plain sight. From responses in this thread alone, not everyone knows of this so maybe there needs to be more consistent training of drivers, as well as officers. I think there are many lessons to be learned from this incident and not just for Law Enforcement. |
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Since you do carry and have taken a class then you would do as you have been taught 
