sassyangel
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Posts: 7,456 
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Post by sassyangel on Jan 14, 2018 20:56:51 GMT
No one said reaping the benefits of living in the U.S. meant that you weren’t contributing. That is exactly what I addressed in my first post to Lindarina. People seem to think that “reaping the benefits” means taking without giving, and that’s not what it means at all. It read as an inequitable relationship, and its most certainly NOT. I'm not alone in interpreting that way, regardless of how it was intended.  |
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jan 14, 2018 21:15:02 GMT
I think parsing what somebody else meant when she wrote the word "benefit" can only be solved by the person who wrote it. (Although I also read it to imply an unbalanced give-and-take, so I'd be interested in any clarification.)
But, fundamentallly, isn't the core rebuke something deeper?
First, just generally, I've never thought the uniquely American adage "Love it or leave it" made a lick of sense. It often just seems like a way to legitimitize the idea that criticism is unseemly, therefore not tolerated. (Often - and too casually - that's called "silencing," here, but I would actually choose that word this time.)
But if you DO agree with the adage, it seems particularly puzzling to only apply it to unhappy resident noncitizens and not to unhappy citizens, even on this same thread.
So, for the record, I'm happy to hear the opinions of all Americans, wherever they are in the citizenship decision. It adds an important layer to my thinking, especially since immigration is a theme lately. (Truth be told, I'm also happy to hear from members from other countries, but that wasn't the rebuke upthread.)
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Post by annabella on Jan 14, 2018 21:27:33 GMT
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by Olan on Jan 14, 2018 21:53:27 GMT
What a change of heart here. This is exciting to see. On the first paragraph you bolded: I'm sure you understand there's a difference between disagreeing with someone's opinion, and disagreeing with their right to express it. On the second paragraph: I have no idea why you included that one. I support immigration. My ancestors were immigrants. I welcome newcomers and think they are good for our country. I support DACA and avenues for legalization for those who are here illegally. Were you trying to imply otherwise? Sorry to disappoint you, but I've had no change of heart. BUT we're having a discussion here. People are expressing their opinions. I don't think it's right to expect that some people will just shut up and keep their opinions to themselves, because someone else might be offended by it. I think we need honesty here more than a veneer of polite gratitude.The bold was supposed to begin with "BUT we're.." and end with "gratitude". I didn't know what your views were on immigration before today so I wasn't commenting on that specifically but I have encountered the aggressive way in which you've tried to shut down a pea ( Olan ) sharing their views on something. I've been made to feel unwelcome here at 2peas and more often than not the intent of my posts are informative and not my opinions. Or at the very least my opinion can seamlessly be removed so that you may take just the information. The ways peas have attempted to silence me made your comment especially rich and had it been anyone else who said it, I would have likely just breezed by it *shrugs* |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 14, 2018 21:57:32 GMT
Durbin spokesman: GOP senators have ‘credibility problem’BY BRETT SAMUELS - 01/14/18 01:12 PM EST ** Durbin told reporters Trump made the remark, and stood by his claim even after the president denied it. Graham didn't directly confirm or deny the comment, but reportedly told Sen. Tim Scott (R-S.C.) reports of Trump's remarks were "basically accurate." ** Marter also took aim at Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen KIRSTJEN MICHELE NIELSEN Top Kelly aide expected to become new White House deputy chief of staff: report, who was also at the meeting and said Sunday she didn’t recall him using “that exact phrase.”“Secretary Nielsen is visibly uncomfortable having to lie — twice — to cover for the President. Pretty early in her tenure to lose her credibility but that’s the deal you make when you sign on to be a face of this Administration,” Marter tweeted. Secretary Nielsen is visibly uncomfortable having to lie — twice — to cover for the President. Pretty early in her tenure to lose her credibility but that’s the deal you make when you sign on to be a face of this Administration.— Ben Marter (@benmarter) January 14, 2018 FYI Secretary Nielsen will be under oath before the Senate Judiciary Committee for an oversight hearing on Tuesday. t.co/BpNdlPbQJI— Ben Marter (@benmarter) January 14, 2018 thehill.com/homenews/senate/368971-durbin-spokesman-gop-senators-have-credibility-problemWe must also remember that Kelly, her former boss, has issues with people who don't look like him!!
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 14, 2018 22:13:28 GMT
Trump’s response to Hawaii missile snafu proves he can’t be trusted with more nukes: New York TimesTOM BOGGIONI 14 JAN 2018 AT 13:12 ET In a cautionary editorial published after the citizens of Hawaii were thrown into a panic over a mistaken alert announcing missiles were incoming, the New York Times said the President blithe response was a reason to not entrust him with an expanded nuclear arsenal. Following the frightening announcement in Hawaii on Saturday morning, the president was reportedly advised about what was going on, but chose to continue to play golf instead of, at the very least, attempting to quell the panic by using his heavily followed Twitter account to dispute the warning. In fact, long after the warning had been debunked, the only statement issued by the White House stated: “The President has been briefed on the state of Hawaii’s emergency management exercise. This was purely a state exercise.” Three hours after the alert, the president finally tweeted: “So much Fake News is being reported. They don’t even try to get it right, or correct it when they are wrong. They promote the Fake Book of a mentally deranged author, who knowingly writes false information. The Mainstream Media is crazed that WE won the election!” with no mention of Hawaii.The Times called the president out for it. www.rawstory.com/2018/01/trumps-response-to-hawaii-missile-snafu-proves-he-cant-be-trusted-with-more-nukes-new-york-times/
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Post by gar on Jan 14, 2018 22:16:44 GMT
He just doesn't get it does he...  |
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Post by lucyg on Jan 15, 2018 6:30:32 GMT
On the first paragraph you bolded: I'm sure you understand there's a difference between disagreeing with someone's opinion, and disagreeing with their right to express it. On the second paragraph: I have no idea why you included that one. I support immigration. My ancestors were immigrants. I welcome newcomers and think they are good for our country. I support DACA and avenues for legalization for those who are here illegally. Were you trying to imply otherwise? Sorry to disappoint you, but I've had no change of heart. BUT we're having a discussion here. People are expressing their opinions. I don't think it's right to expect that some people will just shut up and keep their opinions to themselves, because someone else might be offended by it. I think we need honesty here more than a veneer of polite gratitude.The bold was supposed to begin with "BUT we're.." and end with "gratitude". I didn't know what your views were on immigration before today so I wasn't commenting on that specifically but I have encountered the aggressive way in which you've tried to shut down a pea ( Olan ) sharing their views on something. I've been made to feel unwelcome here at 2peas and more often than not the intent of my posts are informative and not my opinions. Or at the very least my opinion can seamlessly be removed so that you may take just the information. The ways peas have attempted to silence me made your comment especially rich and had it been anyone else who said it, I would have likely just breezed by it *shrugs* That's funny, because I have felt shut down by you, rather than the other way around. You don't want discussion. You want everyone to agree with you, down to every detail. I don't appreciate being treated like a racist for trying to talk about a topic rather than just lapping up whatever it is you are dishing out. And btw, I generally agree with much of what you have to say. That still doesn't mean I want to raise my blood pressure by trying to have an actual discussion with you. |
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 21:43:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 11:51:45 GMT
WOW.
Trump's comment was offensive, divisive, and ignorant. And it's just like the offensive, divisive and ignorant comments from so many of the very same people in this thread about Alabama and its residents.
The hypocrisy is unreal.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 15, 2018 12:05:18 GMT
Trump says “he is the least racist person you have ever interviewed” when asked by a reporter last night.
🙄🙄🙄
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 21:43:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 14:16:12 GMT
Shithole thinking from right-wing mouthpiece Dinesh D'Souza
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Post by Merge on Jan 15, 2018 14:34:37 GMT
WOW. Trump's comment was offensive, divisive, and ignorant. And it's just like the offensive, divisive and ignorant comments from so many of the very same people in this thread about Alabama and its residents. The hypocrisy is unreal. I didn’t make divisive comments about Alabama. Does that mean I have your permission to continue to disparage Trump? Your bad case of whataboutism is pretty unreal, too. |
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 21:43:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 14:58:53 GMT
WOW. Trump's comment was offensive, divisive, and ignorant. And it's just like the offensive, divisive and ignorant comments from so many of the very same people in this thread about Alabama and its residents. The hypocrisy is unreal. I didn’t make divisive comments about Alabama. Does that mean I have your permission to continue to disparage Trump? Your bad case of whataboutism is pretty unreal, too. If you weren't one of the many here that criticized and ridiculed Alabama and it's residents, then my comment wasn't directed at you. However, those that did, thought it a-okay, and yet now criticize Trump are being hypocrites. What are your thoughts about them? Whataboutism, what a cute word.  That Alabama election was 2 months ago, and many of those same critical members are here now. |
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Post by hop2 on Jan 15, 2018 15:16:30 GMT
I didn’t make divisive comments about Alabama. Does that mean I have your permission to continue to disparage Trump? Your bad case of whataboutism is pretty unreal, too. If you weren't one of the many here that criticized and ridiculed Alabama and it's residents, then my comment wasn't directed at you. However, those that did, thought it a-okay, and yet now criticize Trump are being hypocrites. What are your thoughts about them? Whataboutism, what a cute word. That Alabama election was 2 months ago, and many of those same critical members are here now. Dec 13th 2017 is not even 5 weeks ago yet. |
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 21:43:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 15:29:33 GMT
If you weren't one of the many here that criticized and ridiculed Alabama and it's residents, then my comment wasn't directed at you. However, those that did, thought it a-okay, and yet now criticize Trump are being hypocrites. What are your thoughts about them? Whataboutism, what a cute word. That Alabama election was 2 months ago, and many of those same critical members are here now. Dec 13th 2017 is not even 5 weeks ago yet. Okay, 5 weeks ago, not 8, my mistake. The three week difference doesn't change the fact that the Alabama criticism is fresh so I'm not pulling out something Bill Clinton did as an argument or comparison. A lot of those that criticize Trump for his comments (which are deserved) about Africa, Haiti and/or it's people, also criticized Alabama, it's residents. |
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 21:43:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 15:35:37 GMT
WOW. Trump's comment was offensive, divisive, and ignorant. And it's just like the offensive, divisive and ignorant comments from so many of the very same people in this thread about Alabama and its residents. The hypocrisy is unreal. I didn’t make divisive comments about Alabama. Does that mean I have your permission to continue to disparage Trump? Your bad case of whataboutism is pretty unreal, too. I like “whataboutism”. I’ll have to remember that one. I probably shouldn’t say this but I am. As to what’s her face’s post, it’s just an attempt to start one of those silly back and forth divisive exchanges for no other reason then for her to get her jollies if she gets any takers. |
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 21:43:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 15:45:02 GMT
What's her face, LOL!  If those that chose to criticize Alabama AND Trump can't see the similarities, or don't want to admit it, they are in denial. No jollies here, just pointing out the obvious. |
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Post by Merge on Jan 15, 2018 15:48:17 GMT
I didn’t make divisive comments about Alabama. Does that mean I have your permission to continue to disparage Trump? Your bad case of whataboutism is pretty unreal, too. If you weren't one of the many here that criticized and ridiculed Alabama and it's residents, then my comment wasn't directed at you. However, those that did, thought it a-okay, and yet now criticize Trump are being hypocrites. What are your thoughts about them? Whataboutism, what a cute word. That Alabama election was 2 months ago, and many of those same critical members are here now. I think that the two events are not remotely related. Private citizens expressing disgust with a child molester and the people who are willing to vote for him is not remotely the same thing as the putative leader of the free world calling other nations, which do not have the benefit of our wealth or history of stable democracy, "shitholes," especially in the context of saying that immigrants from those countries are not as valuable or welcome here as immigrants from a wealthy, white country like Norway. Whataboutism = conflating unrelated events when you don't have an actual argument against what is being said but still want to express nastiness toward the person saying it. I didn't coin the phrase. Google it. Also known as a sad attempt at deflection. The best-known example of whataboutism was the "but her emails" argument against voting for Clinton every time another example of Trump's racism, sexism, bigotry, and general unfitness for office was revealed during the 2016 campaign. |
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 21:43:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 15:57:00 GMT
Good point by Kaitlin Collins that the sentiment trump made may be lost by some in the crudeness of his words.
“The President and Republican senators disputing that he said "shithole" is semantics. They are not denying that he expressed that sentiment about African countries, about Haitians, about Norway. Regardless of the specific wording he used, it does not change the attitude.”
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,030
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Post by Sarah*H on Jan 15, 2018 15:57:07 GMT
Whataboutism is real and you're engaging in it whether you'll admit it or not. But you're doing it quite poorly - trying to conflate a blatantly racist insult made by the President of the United States against millions of people around the world to the reality pointed out here that millions of people would choose to vote for a child molester rather than a Democrat... weak.
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Post by Merge on Jan 15, 2018 16:04:56 GMT
Good point by Kaitlin Collins that the sentiment trump made may be lost by some in the crudeness of his words. “The President and Republican senators disputing that he said "shithole" is semantics. They are not denying that he expressed that sentiment about African countries, about Haitians, about Norway. Regardless of the specific wording he used, it does not change the attitude.” Exactly. This is the point that Trump's defenders refuse to see. |
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casii
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,525
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Post by casii on Jan 15, 2018 16:08:42 GMT
Dec 13th 2017 is not even 5 weeks ago yet. Okay, 5 weeks ago, not 8, my mistake. The three week difference doesn't change the fact that the Alabama criticism is fresh so I'm not pulling out something Bill Clinton did as an argument or comparison. A lot of those that criticize Trump for his comments (which are deserved) about Africa, Haiti and/or it's people, also criticized Alabama, it's residents. To be fair, I don't know that I recall anyone criticizing Alabama residents as a whole. Those who voted for Moore? Yes. The rest? No. Edited: Nevermind, I should've read Merge's post first. She nailed it. |
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PLurker
Prolific Pea
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Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Jun 28, 2014 3:48:49 GMT
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Post by PLurker on Jan 15, 2018 16:31:20 GMT
Good point by Kaitlin Collins that the sentiment trump made may be lost by some in the crudeness of his words. “The President and Republican senators disputing that he said "shithole" is semantics. They are not denying that he expressed that sentiment about African countries, about Haitians, about Norway. Regardless of the specific wording he used, it does not change the attitude.” I totally agree. As I posted before, (might even be on this thread- can't search now) I heard a congressman or senator say this weekend that those defending 45 saying he did not say "that word" are playing the semantics card because he (may have) actually said sh!tHOUSE (not hole). Like that makes a big difference. If I call someone an asshat and you mishear me as saying "hole" technically I can say "no I didn't"- but yeah, I really did. The meaning is the same. For once just frickin' own it. All the extra peripheral noise is a distraction. Probably very intentional. |
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jan 15, 2018 16:43:06 GMT
Trump says “he is the least racist person you have ever interviewed” when asked by a reporter last night. 🙄🙄🙄 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I think he does actually believe the crap he spews about himself. |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Jan 15, 2018 17:31:51 GMT
WOW. Trump's comment was offensive, divisive, and ignorant. And it's just like the offensive, divisive and ignorant comments from so many of the very same people in this thread about Alabama and its residents. The hypocrisy is unreal. I'm going to start a running tally of how many times you acknowledge Trump's blatant asshattery WITHOUT having to point two fingers in another direction at the same time. Why is so hard to say "it was offensive, divisive and ignorant."? Period. Honestly, you make it so easy for people. |
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MsKnit
Pearl Clutcher
RefuPea #1406
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Jun 26, 2014 19:06:42 GMT
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Post by MsKnit on Jan 15, 2018 17:59:24 GMT
I can't and won't speak for sassyangel but for me, living in the US isn't tons different than living in Canada. Yes, there are certainly differences, but I didn't come here for economic opportunities or to escape poor living conditions, crime, etc. I came here because I fell in love with my husband 19 years ago. At the time, he had custody of his 4 children after his divorce and immigrating to the US was easier than trying to have him and 4 kids immigrate to Canada. I lost A LOT moving to the US: my family, my job with seniority and having already paid into a pension for several year, my friends, the comfort in knowing my surrounding, my healthcare (free!). Since moving the the US I have contributed for sure. I'm a teacher. I immigrated to the US in August 2000 and had my Work Permit by December 2000. I've been teaching with the same district since January 2001. I give back and contribute. My husband is retired AF. He contributes. We have 3 wonderful children. They contribute. For all the US has given me, I have definitely contributed back. Before that idiot became president, I had considered becoming a citizen. I have to also admit, I'm so proud to be a Canadian. I feel a sense of loyalty to my home country and since this administration has been in power, I just can't. There's something I can't put a word to that stops me from getting my US citizenship. Please do not assume that I come here and only reap benefits from the US. I AM a contributing member of this country and I deserve to express my opinion even if it isn't one that is well-received. I love my American family and friends. I love my community. I love my students and co-workers. I do not love what this administration is doing to my adopted country and I cannot bear to have that man's signature on my citizenship papers. I just can't. I completely understand this! It is such an important document. Something you worked hard to achieve. Having that particular signature on your citizenship papers would be a defilement. |
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Post by peatlejuice on Jan 15, 2018 18:42:26 GMT
I do not love what this administration is doing to my adopted country and I cannot bear to have that man's signature on my citizenship papers. I just can't. I talked to my husband about this thread last night. For what it's worth, he tells me that his citizenship papers (which, granted, are several years old) were signed by the director of the USCIS, not the POTUS. He said there wasn't any reference to the specific administration at all. I also asked him if he had to do it all over again today, would he? His response was that he'd have to think long and hard about it. Not because he loves our country any less, but because he believes he wouldn't be as welcomed today by Americans. That was sure heartbreaking to hear as the native citizen who loves him, but I can't say I disagree with his assessment. He certainly understood where you and SassyAngel are coming from and agrees that it's not a decision that is made lightly. |
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jan 15, 2018 18:48:46 GMT
First, I want to say I voted for Clinton. I despise Trump and cannot believe he actually became president. I was born and raised in the US. Trump has been an embarrassment to this country. I'd like to see him impeached. That said, I love this country and despite Trump being president, there is a lot of good here. There are wonderful, caring people. Lots of great opportunities. But to be honest, to read the posts by sassyangel and missfrenchjessica , it really bothers me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and thoughts, I know. But there's something about non citizens being here in this country and reaping benefits ( I assume there is some benefit to them being here, or they wouldn't stay) all the while saying how they wouldn't seek citizenship right now. Sassy angel said it's her way of protesting. I say, if you want to protest, why would you stay? I'd never say the US is the best country. We certainly have our flaws. But there is a lot of good in this country. Don't come here to reap the benefits. and then bad mouth it in the process. I would not move to Canada and then say negative things about it, so I get what you’re saying. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jan 15, 2018 20:22:51 GMT
The bold was supposed to begin with "BUT we're.." and end with "gratitude". I didn't know what your views were on immigration before today so I wasn't commenting on that specifically but I have encountered the aggressive way in which you've tried to shut down a pea ( Olan ) sharing their views on something. I've been made to feel unwelcome here at 2peas and more often than not the intent of my posts are informative and not my opinions. Or at the very least my opinion can seamlessly be removed so that you may take just the information. The ways peas have attempted to silence me made your comment especially rich and had it been anyone else who said it, I would have likely just breezed by it *shrugs* That's funny, because I have felt shut down by you, rather than the other way around. You don't want discussion. You want everyone to agree with you, down to every detail. I don't appreciate being treated like a racist for trying to talk about a topic rather than just lapping up whatever it is you are dishing out. And btw, I generally agree with much of what you have to say. That still doesn't mean I want to raise my blood pressure by trying to have an actual discussion with you. You agree with much of what I say because it's hard to dispute the truth *shrugs* For posterity..No one has to agree with me and I certainly don't expect you to agree with "every detail" but what I would expect from someone who claims to be tolerant and "liberal" is that you not argue down the validity of a video I post or bring your husbands death up every time I talk about police brutality. 2peasrefugees.boards.net/thread/65369/proctor-gamble-ad 2peasrefugees.boards.net/thread/63892/?page=2Stop pretending like it's me ( Olan) when it's glaringly obvious 1. You've been unwelcoming and rude. 2. It wasn't warranted. 3. You don't realllly want to have a conversation with a black woman like me. Your hope is that with each dig or personal attack I'll decide 2peas isn't the community I want to be apart of. |
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Post by monklady123 on Jan 15, 2018 20:28:58 GMT
I do not love what this administration is doing to my adopted country and I cannot bear to have that man's signature on my citizenship papers. I just can't. I talked to my husband about this thread last night. For what it's worth, he tells me that his citizenship papers (which, granted, are several years old) were signed by the director of the USCIS, not the POTUS. He said there wasn't any reference to the specific administration at all. I also asked him if he had to do it all over again today, would he? His response was that he'd have to think long and hard about it. Not because he loves our country any less, but because he believes he wouldn't be as welcomed today by Americans. That was sure heartbreaking to hear as the native citizen who loves him, but I can't say I disagree with his assessment. He certainly understood where you and SassyAngel are coming from and agrees that it's not a decision that is made lightly. It's actually the welcome letter than traditionally comes from the president. -- And, there was a story about the welcome letter still being the one from President Obama not trump, even after several months had gone by since the election. Let me see if I can find it... Wrong president on the welcome letter
Lol, I agree with the sentiment that those new citizens were better lucky to have President Obama's signature rather than trump's. lol |
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That Alabama election was 2 months ago, and many of those same critical members are here now.
