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Post by gale w on Jun 22, 2018 4:57:56 GMT
I was hoping to learn more about politics. Instead I see name calling and mudslinging. But you go ahead and judge me.  There is some political discussion mixed in, it just takes a few minutes to dig through and find it  That's just it. I have no desire to spend that much time sorting through the personal crap. The whole point of this thread was so that we wouldn't have to. |
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by cycworker on Jun 22, 2018 5:28:08 GMT
So, I've searched here and what a surprise; not a word from our liberal peas about Peter Fonda tweeting about kidnapping and torturing Baron Trump. I didn't like that tweet in part because I knew as soon as I saw it people would twist it around & try to make it mean something it didn't mean. He wasn't saying he would take Trump's kid. He was simply asking the question.... would Trump be so cavalier about the issue of tearing families apart if he was on the receiving end of it. He wasn't saying, "I want X to happen..." He was saying to Trump, "Put yourselves in someone else's shoes. It was an exceptional dumb tweet & a bad take on the situation. That kind of thinking will never sway Trump, because he doesn't actually have feelings. He cares only about himself. Everyone in his life is simply an object to be used for his own purposes. He is completely incapable of feeling any kind of love for anyone but himself... total malignant narcissist. On some level, I genuinely do feel some empathy for him; I can't imagine what his parents must have done to him to turn him into the monster he grew up to be. And I hate that he's carried it on to the next generation of his family. Tiffany should actually consider herself lucky she's been away from him so much; Marla may have saved her soul. |
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Post by tara on Jun 22, 2018 6:01:11 GMT
You didn’t answer my question. If Obama had children in cages why didn’t the republicans stop it? As I said... Obama DID separate families and leave them in detention while he deported the men in this "horrifically evil" policy. So yeah, the same conditions that Trump is being called evil, cruel and heartless for. So, either they're both evil, cruel and heartless for separating families and housing them in cages, or the labels are wrong. If it applies to one, it applies to the other. If it doesn't apply to one, it doesn't apply to the other. THAT was the topic, you don't get to then move the goalposts and start in on "whataboutism". Or is this where I follow the Left's playbook and accuse you of derailing the thread, being a troll, saying something racist (you didn't, but of course we all KNOW your hidden meaning), call you crazy and have 85 of my buddies pile on in agreement with me? I’m not left, right or Democrat. I’ve said that before. You keep bringing up Obama’s. I don’t give a crap about obama. You are what is wrong with this county. Both sides are full of shit. You just want to be right and point fingers and say they did it first! I don’t give a shit who did what first. When you see a kid being abused, you speak up or you’re just as bad as the abuser. I never heard of children being put in cages before and being kept there indefinitely. If it happened the republicans knew about it. Obama couldn’t fart without you guys knowing. So your stance is you knew about it yet you did nothing. I don’t really think all republicans are racist but you sure as hell can’t call yourselves Christian. Shame on you! Shame on all of you! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 11:29:40 GMT
@mytnice No matter how many articles are linked, or news clips are shared, there will ALWAYS be an explanation or justification as to why this is ALL because of the republicans. Always. Under Bush? Republicans' fault. Under Clinton? Republicans' fault. Under Obama? Republicans' fault. Really--IF this was happening under Obama? YES, yes it was. But, because of the republicans of course. I saw a clip on CNN asking a democrat for an explanation about this same issue happening under the previous administration, and the woman couldn't even put two words together to form a coherent explanation.
So here we are, yet again. Trump and his administration came up with a really f'ed up way to deal with a decades long, and ever growing, immigration situation. We now have non-stop comparisons to the Holocaust, internment camps, bashing of republicans, criticism towards conservatives, questioning peoples' faith. What I don't see is anyone expressing suggestions for this decades long immigration situation. That's no mistake. It's coming though, wait and see. My prediction? Back to the old standby of "catch and release."
To be clear-I'm not a republican, democrat, or independent, nor am I religious. I'm just your average middle of the road citizen that can see thru the bullshit, and gets pissed that our elected officials continue to pass the buck on immigration, from both parties.
As an aside, I just saw this article on Yahoo (from Reuters) about the little girl crying that made national coverage and Time's cover. According to the girl's father, she was not separated from her mother. Go figure.
Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my position on the photo if the story turns out to be untrue.
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Post by lisacharlotte on Jun 22, 2018 11:40:11 GMT
The purpose of this thread and the other conservative thread were great ideas. However, it’s been made abundantly clear that there are some peas that just won’t let it be. The same damn people in a never ending loop all saying “Who? Me?” And the same people on the other side joining those same loops with their same comments until the only thing left are those stupid pointless loops of the same handful of peas all saying “Well, you’re a worse human being than me, so there.”
Every time I wander into a political thread I wonder why I thought it would be different.
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Post by cade387 on Jun 22, 2018 11:48:24 GMT
The stories of abuse and forcing drugs on kids as ‘vitamins’ is disgusting. I also believe childhood survivors of the camps in germany that this is a similar situation. They get that call - they were there.
That being said - Trump says that Congress has to fix this, but why didn’t Congress fix it under Obama? Why can’t they do their jobs to get this crap fixed. A wall won’t fix this. The children are admittedly being used as pawns in negotiations (which is disgusting). The whole thing is a mess.
In the meantime they are also shorting SS which is another Republican agenda. I’m tired of this. Be fiscally conservative, don’t steal tax payer money. I don’t like taxes but I understand they are needed for things, but I will be damned to watch them piss it away to their friends and donors with these “camps” for kids and draining SS and children’s health.
This is on ALL of Congress. Not one party or the other.
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Post by Merge on Jun 22, 2018 11:59:11 GMT
I’m sorry, but I don’t agree at all. I read about the policy you mentioned and it only applied to men traveling solo - the more typical migrant worker scenario. Disagree all you want, it was happening under Obama... From 2014 through 2015, the Kino Border Initiative (KBI) surveyed individuals deported to Nogales, Sonora. Their survey of 358 participants found: Almost 65 percent of migrants who were traveling
with immediate family were separated from those
family members (an increase of almost 10 percent from a survey by the Mexican Government, Las Encuestas sobre Migratión en las Fronteras Norte y Sud de México [EMIF] in 2012). o 13 percent of family separations included
the separation from a child.
o 20 percent of family separations were due
to the detention of another family member
(most likely connected to Operation
Streamline or another border prosecution
program).
o 30 percent of family separations were
attributable to lateral repatriation programs
such as ATEP or MIRP.
In 36 percent of the cases, individuals at the time of the interview were unsure of the location of their
family members.
69 percent of families surveyed reported an increased feeling of insecurity due to family separation during the deportation process. Separated families were also more than twice as likely as other surveyed participants to have experienced abuse in a short time following their removal. 38 percent of family members reported financial difficulties due to the separation.
Additionally, data from KBI’s basic questionnaire for migrants who arrived at their aid center from January to June of 2016 showed that: 36 individuals who were detained while crossing the
border were separated from a parent in the detention
and deportation process.
128 individuals were separated from their spouse. 67 individuals were separated from children.
124 individuals were separated from their siblings.Fine. As you do not acknowledge things like context or scale in your arguments, I’ll stipulate that the Obama administration was responsible for some family separation. I want to thank you for making me aware of the KINO border initiative, which sounds like a worthy organization that could use my financial support. Since you brought them up, you might also be interested in this newsletter piece of theirs, which both acknowledges the problem under Obama and details how much worse it has become under the present administration. Up to you, of course. www.kinoborderinitiative.org/children-and-parents-at-the-border/ |
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Post by katieanna on Jun 22, 2018 12:43:09 GMT
Of course, don't change people's hearts...do it the the Liberal way by forcefully shoving your views down our collective throats, berate us with vitriol, screeching it over the airwaves (at least a gazillion times a day) with as much emotionally-charged outrage as you can muster, humiliate us with typical Liberal Propaganda Bullsh!t, and avoid AT ALL COSTS any sort of common-sense dialogue because you know that your liberal policies can't persuade with common sense and logic.
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Post by redhead32 on Jun 22, 2018 12:56:09 GMT
Of course, don't change people's hearts...do it the the Liberal way by forcefully shoving your views down our collective throats, berate us with vitriol, screeching it over the airwaves (at least a gazillion times a day) with as much emotionally-charged outrage as you can muster, humiliate us with typical Liberal Propaganda Bullsh!t, and avoid AT ALL COSTS any sort of common-sense dialogue because you know that your liberal policies can't persuade with common sense and logic. Niiiice. I am not a liberal, as much as it would make this much easier if you could label me as one. In my opinion, human rights and civil rights shouldn’t need a partisan label. Pointing out fallacies in logic is hardly screeching liberal talking points. The Republican Party - the one I used to support - called itself the party of family values. I see none of that currently. It instead appears to be the party of “drinking liberal tears” and “melting liberal snowflakes.” It’s not common sense to keep families together? It’s shoving liberal agendas down your throat to want to protect children? It’s Liberal Propaganda Bullshit to believe that the long term consequences of systemic racism are still felt today? Then to that extent, you are probably right and discussion is wasted. |
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Post by tara on Jun 22, 2018 12:58:49 GMT
The stories of abuse and forcing drugs on kids as ‘vitamins’ is disgusting. I also believe childhood survivors of the camps in germany that this is a similar situation. They get that call - they were there. That being said - Trump says that Congress has to fix this, but why didn’t Congress fix it under Obama? Why can’t they do their jobs to get this crap fixed. A wall won’t fix this. The children are admittedly being used as pawns in negotiations (which is disgusting). The whole thing is a mess. In the meantime they are also shorting SS which is another Republican agenda. I’m tired of this. Be fiscally conservative, don’t steal tax payer money. I don’t like taxes but I understand they are needed for things, but I will be damned to watch them piss it away to their friends and donors with these “camps” for kids and draining SS and children’s health. This is on ALL of Congress. Not one party or the other. Absolutely agree!!! |
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jayfab
Drama Llama
procastinating
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Post by jayfab on Jun 22, 2018 13:10:54 GMT
Of course, don't change people's hearts...do it the the Liberal way by forcefully shoving your views down our collective throats, berate us with vitriol, screeching it over the airwaves (at least a gazillion times a day) with as much emotionally-charged outrage as you can muster, humiliate us with typical Liberal Propaganda Bullsh!t, and avoid AT ALL COSTS any sort of common-sense dialogue because you know that your liberal policies can't persuade with common sense and logic. Niiiice. I am not a liberal, as much as it would make this much easier if you could label me as one. In my opinion, human rights and civil rights shouldn’t need a partisan label. Pointing out fallacies in logic is hardly screeching liberal talking points. The Republican Party - the one I used to support - called itself the party of family values. I see none of that currently. It instead appears to be the party of “drinking liberal tears” and “melting liberal snowflakes.” It’s not common sense to keep families together? It’s shoving liberal agendas down your throat to want to protect children? It’s Liberal Propaganda Bullshit to believe that the long term consequences of systemic racism are still felt today? Then to that extent, you are probably right and discussion is wasted. Thank you! |
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Post by tara on Jun 22, 2018 14:44:00 GMT
@mytnice No matter how many articles are linked, or news clips are shared, there will ALWAYS be an explanation or justification as to why this is ALL because of the republicans. Always. Under Bush? Republicans' fault. Under Clinton? Republicans' fault. Under Obama? Republicans' fault. Really--IF this was happening under Obama? YES, yes it was. But, because of the republicans of course. I saw a clip on CNN asking a democrat for an explanation about this same issue happening under the previous administration, and the woman couldn't even put two words together to form a coherent explanation.
So here we are, yet again. Trump and his administration came up with a really f'ed up way to deal with a decades long, and ever growing, immigration situation. We now have non-stop comparisons to the Holocaust, internment camps, bashing of republicans, criticism towards conservatives, questioning peoples' faith. What I don't see is anyone expressing suggestions for this decades long immigration situation. That's no mistake. It's coming though, wait and see. My prediction? Back to the old standby of "catch and release."
To be clear-I'm not a republican, democrat, or independent, nor am I religious. I'm just your average middle of the road citizen that can see thru the bullshit, and gets pissed that our elected officials continue to pass the buck on immigration, from both parties.
As an aside, I just saw this article on Yahoo (from Reuters) about the little girl crying that made national coverage and Time's cover. According to the girl's father, she was not separated from her mother. Go figure.
Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my position on the photo if the story turns out to be untrue.
We can go round and round with the blame game but If I saw a child you in a cage, I would try to get that child out of the cage. People can stand around and say it’s alright Obama put that child in the cage. What goes around comes around, I would say f your shit, I’m getting that child out of that cage! If you tried to stop me, I would punch you in the nose! I don’t care who’s fault it was. My reaction would be to protect the child. I’m not going to stand around and talk about how to get that child’s mother from crossing the border again. I would protect that child first. I’m neither Democrat or Republican. I’m 50 years old and only voted in the last 2 years. I’m just an ordinary person like you, if anything I was more conservative, but when I heard Trump speak I heard evil. Republicans don’t like it when we compare him to Hitler. I wonder why? Because it’s true. I heard how he talked about Latinos and Muslim and it sounded like trump talking about Jews. I told my husband trump will never get elected. We are better than this. When he talked about grabbing women’s pussies I told my husband my husband that’s the end for him. We are better than this. How wrong I was! In fact I heard people make excuses for him. People with daughters who I “use” to respect. People I “use” to respect saying how glad they don’t have to worry about political correctness anymore. In my family we have 2 Latino children, one biracial child and a bisexual daughter with a black boyfriend. If you don’t think racism is alive and well just walk behind us at the mall and see the nasty looks. Excuse me if I don’t like people looking at my daughter like they want to kill her because she is holding my Latino sons hand! Now these Neanderthals think they have a voice because the president is one of them. I heard his spiel of making America great again. What the hell? It was always great and he’s telling people it’s not? My mouth fell open but his people were eating it up! How dare he say my country’s not great! When I see him make fun of the handicapped reporter I thought people wouldn’t go for that! But his people laughed it off. Same at Hitler and his followers. They executed the handicapped because they were a drain. Then I saw he picked a homophobic running mate. I looked around with my mouth opened again and again his people were cheering. Like I said I never voted before this election but I’ve always been glad I was born here. I have two g grandfathers who served with George Washington. I have a grandfather who saw action in ww2. My dad served his country during the Korean War. I thought this country was great and my family helped make it great! When he got elected was the first time i was ashamed of us. I talked to my friends overseas and they asked how did we let this happen? Then I saw him persecuting transgenders in the military. Excuse but don’t you want people to serve? Then I saw him calling football players sons of bitches because they wouldn’t stand. My first thought was Hitler making people hiel him. I see him praising dictators of other countries. I’m sorry but our leader shouldn’t bow down to other leaders but his people praised him. There’s ton of other examples but I don’t have the time. I thought the right was the religious party. I’m religious (more spiritual now) went to church 3 times a week for 40 years. Use to teach the Bible to others. My husband has gotten up in front of over 100 people and gave a bible discourse. Never once in my bible has it said it’s alright to abuse a child becaus the other side started it first. Never once has it said to hate your neighbor because of the color of his skin. The Bible might have mentioned homosexuality but it talks a lot more about fornication as a sin. How many republicans are having sex out of wedlock. hypocrites. My bible does talk about love. God is love. I don’t see love in the Republican Party. I see hate. I see how the Bible had it right when it said man has dominated man to his injury. I see Democrats trying to stop this atrocity that is hitler (oh I mean trum)so I will vote Democrat until this evil is out of office. I don’t have all the answers about immigration but they will not make my country into Nazi germany. I don’t care what party your in. Not on my watch. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 15:00:52 GMT
There is some political discussion mixed in, it just takes a few minutes to dig through and find it That's just it. I have no desire to spend that much time sorting through the personal crap. The whole point of this thread was so that we wouldn't have to. exactly. Some people are just selfish. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jun 22, 2018 15:04:42 GMT
As an aside, I just saw this article on Yahoo (from Reuters) about the little girl crying that made national coverage and Time's cover. According to the girl's father, she was not separated from her mother. Go figure. This is correct. I saw or heard an interview with the photographer who was taking photos at the border crossing(I think it was there). I cannot link what I heard or saw. |
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moodyblue
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,277
Location: Western Illinois
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
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Post by moodyblue on Jun 22, 2018 15:25:06 GMT
As an aside, I just saw this article on Yahoo (from Reuters) about the little girl crying that made national coverage and Time's cover. According to the girl's father, she was not separated from her mother. Go figure. This is correct. I saw or heard an interview with the photographer who was taking photos at the border crossing(I think it was there). I cannot link what I heard or saw. My understanding is that it was taken after the mother put down her daughter so that the mother could be searched. I think it represents how stressful the whole experience is for these small children. |
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Post by auntkelly on Jun 22, 2018 15:25:34 GMT
The purpose of this thread and the other conservative thread were great ideas. However, it’s been made abundantly clear that there are some peas that just won’t let it be. The same damn people in a never ending loop all saying “Who? Me?” And the same people on the other side joining those same loops with their same comments until the only thing left are those stupid pointless loops of the same handful of peas all saying “Well, you’re a worse human being than me, so there.” Every time I wander into a political thread I wonder why I thought it would be different. Yes, when this thread was started I was looking forward to some lively discussion among conservatives about the issues of the day. I didn’t expect us to agree on every issue and I was looking forward to some respectful debate. However, I think this thread just enforces my belief that the internet is just not a good place to have a meaningful debate about politics. i always say one of the few times I completely agreed with President Obama was during his farewell address when he urged people to stop fighting about politics over the internet and have a face to face discussion about politics with someone in real life. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 15:25:36 GMT
"Denis said his wife and daughter were never separated by border control agents and remain together." link |
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jun 22, 2018 15:42:18 GMT
"Denis said his wife and daughter were never separated by border control agents and remain together." linkso that means they shouldn't have used that photo? is that what you're saying? The cover in no way implies that the little girl was separated from her mother-- it's just a visual representation of Trump's (not-very-welcoming) 'welcome to America' for immigrants, especially the most vulnerable (children). I have no problem with the Time cover using that particular photo- and I'm going to guess they (the Time magazine staff) probably knew that when they chose her image. |
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Post by redhead32 on Jun 22, 2018 15:46:42 GMT
That's just it. I have no desire to spend that much time sorting through the personal crap. The whole point of this thread was so that we wouldn't have to. exactly. Some people are just selfish. Ah. So you want an echo chamber where no one voices another point of view. Even if they might consider themselves conservative, or at least lean that way. Even when that contrary point of view is that is it inhumane to rip young children from their parents (even though Fox aired commentary this morning that it's OK because aren't OUR children). I have tried to be respectful and thoughtful. I am much more of a centrist than liberal or conservative. I will not remain silent when people justify caging children, no matter which party they affiliate themselves with. I will not be silent when our country is choosing to dehumanize people. We've seen this play out over and over again throughout history. It does not end well. Ever. I just didn't think the United States would be on the wrong side this time around and that the justification "but a democrat did it first." |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 15:50:04 GMT
"Denis said his wife and daughter were never separated by border control agents and remain together." linkso that means they shouldn't have used that photo? is that what you're saying? The cover in no way implies that the little girl was separated from her mother-- it's just a visual representation of Trump's (not-very-welcoming) 'welcome to America' for immigrants, especially the most vulnerable (children). I have no problem with the Time cover using that particular photo- and I'm going to guess they (the Time magazine staff) probably knew that when they chose her image. No. I was providing a link (unrequested) for moodyblue. I am not implying anything. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 15:51:19 GMT
exactly. Some people are just selfish. Ah. So you want an echo chamber where no one voices another point of view. Even if they might consider themselves conservative, or at least lean that way. Speaking for myself, no. I want to engage in conversation without personal attacks. That's not expressing another POV. |
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Post by redhead32 on Jun 22, 2018 15:53:38 GMT
Ah. So you want an echo chamber where no one voices another point of view. Even if they might consider themselves conservative, or at least lean that way. Speaking for myself, no. I want to engage in conversation without personal attacks. That's not expressing another POV. Personal attacks? Such as? |
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Post by snowsilver on Jun 22, 2018 15:59:23 GMT
exactly. Some people are just selfish. Ah. So you want an echo chamber where no one voices another point of view. Even if they might consider themselves conservative, or at least lean that way. Redhead, I don't think most of us are asking for an echo chamber. What we DON'T want is a rehash of the "Trump is the Most Evil Person Who Ever Lived" thread that already is pages and pages long. For heavens sake, if we want to hear how we are as evil as he is for not denouncing every singe thing he does including the way he combs his hair, we can just go there. I (and many others) simply quit posting when it gets personal and ugly. And that is what is being brought over here. PERSONAL attacks. I'm not saying YOU have done it (in fact as I recall without going up and rereading every post you have made, you have been pretty nice), but plenty of others have. And really, what is so wrong with conservatives having a place where they can say, "Well, I do agree with Trump on this--or this--or this" without having a flood of the "Trump is the Most Evil" thread people coming over here and telling us again how stupid we are! Honestly, the past few days, I've wondered how on earth anyone could call this the conservative thread! There are so many liberals on here once again telling us we are wrong, wrong, wrong that the conservative voices are just giving up--once again. It seems that liberals just cannot stand to let us think our own thoughts. I've said from the start that I, personally (can't speak for every conservative and for sure some totally disagree with me) welcome liberals here if they can keep from the personal attacks. I don't want an echo chamber. But I also don't want to feel that I'm crowded out in what is supposed to be a thread that supports MY viewpoint! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 16:06:10 GMT
Ah. So you want an echo chamber where no one voices another point of view. Even if they might consider themselves conservative, or at least lean that way. Redhead, I don't think most of us are asking for an echo chamber. What we DON'T want is a rehash of the "Trump is the Most Evil Person Who Ever Lived" thread that already is pages and pages long. For heavens sake, if we want to hear how we are as evil as he is for not denouncing every singe thing he does including the way he combs his hair, we can just go there. I (and many others) simply quit posting when it gets personal and ugly. And that is what is being brought over here. PERSONAL attacks. I'm not saying YOU have done it (in fact as I recall without going up and rereading every post you have made, you have been pretty nice), but plenty of others have. And really, what is so wrong with conservatives having a place where they can say, "Well, I do agree with Trump on this--or this--or this" without having a flood of the "Trump is the Most Evil" thread people coming over here and telling us again how stupid we are! Honestly, the past few days, I've wondered how on earth anyone could call this the conservative thread! There are so many liberals on here once again telling us we are wrong, wrong, wrong that the conservative voices are just giving up--once again. It seems that liberals just cannot stand to let us think our own thoughts. I've said from the start that I, personally (can't speak for every conservative and for sure some totally disagree with me) welcome liberals here if they can keep from the personal attacks. I don't want an echo chamber. But I also don't want to feel that I'm crowded out in what is supposed to be a thread that supports MY viewpoint! You articulated it so well. Thank you. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 16:11:23 GMT
exactly. Some people are just selfish. Ah. So you want an echo chamber where no one voices another point of view. Even if they might consider themselves conservative, or at least lean that way. Even when that contrary point of view is that is it inhumane to rip young children from their parents (even though Fox aired commentary this morning that it's OK because aren't OUR children). I have tried to be respectful and thoughtful. I am much more of a centrist than liberal or conservative. I will not remain silent when people justify caging children, no matter which party they affiliate themselves with. I will not be silent when our country is choosing to dehumanize people. We've seen this play out over and over again throughout history. It does not end well. Ever. I just didn't think the United States would be on the wrong side this time around and that the justification "but a democrat did it first." I don't think anybody "justifies" caging children. Some people HAVE pointed out that this isn't the first administration that has done this, and that the procedure isn't the kids fault, but the people that bring them here. That is not justification. I've blamed both parties for not taking care of the situation. It's an abomination. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 16:19:58 GMT
Speaking for myself, no. I want to engage in conversation without personal attacks. That's not expressing another POV. Personal attacks? Such as? There are several on the Melania jacket thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 16:22:35 GMT
Personal attacks? Such as? There are several on the Melania jacket thread. I'll say! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 16:38:16 GMT
More threats against Trump children : link |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 16:43:59 GMT
More threats against Trump children : linkSuch nice people. Geeze. Sickening. |
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Post by missmiss on Jun 22, 2018 16:56:05 GMT
More threats against Trump children : linkAll threats are horrible and should be investigated. Really though this is nothing new because past presidents have had their family members threatened as well. Are you shocked by this? |
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