pyccku
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,817 
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Post by pyccku on Jun 23, 2018 18:37:24 GMT
When one party rallies behind a guy who lies as easily as he breathes, who regularly cheats on each wife he’s had, who mocks disabled people, who enacts policies that tear children away from their families, who discounts the service of former POWs and gold star families and who uses the language of genocide (vermin, infesting, breeding) to refer to immigrants...
I’m going to claim moral superiority. Frankly, it’s not a very high bar in this case. I can’t really think of very many people I’ve known in my life who wouldn’t be morally superior to a standard this low.
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Post by redhead32 on Jun 23, 2018 18:46:14 GMT
Someone help me out here. Was this level of crazy going on under the previous administrations? I DO remember the awful things said about the Obamas, and I remember nasty things about Chelsea Clinton's looks. I even remember coverage about the Bush daughters' wild nights out. All reprehensible.
Did things ever escalate to anywhere near this level of dehumanizing and threatening an entire party? Were the children threatened on an almost daily basis as now (at least it seems that way)? Were individual members of an administration targeted? Was the safety of law enforcement, and their children, jeopardized for enforcing our laws? This escalating unhinged behavior should scare the crap out of anyone and everyone, yet I only see concern for the reality of what's happening coming from one side. Violence, and the threats of violence, should be taken seriously and denounced by all, including our politicians. You know that if it would have been, the Liberal press would have been all over it. I remember the good old days when being conservative wasn't based upon hatred of liberals. It was actually a political ideology. |
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Post by redhead32 on Jun 23, 2018 18:48:29 GMT
As a purely theoretical discussion, why are people not ok with Sarah not being served at the Red Hen but applauding the Supreme Court ruling on the baker refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple. Conversely, why are people upset about a baker denying a gay couple service but not upset about a restaurant denying Sarah service. Cognitive dissonance at it’s finest. Pick a principle and stick with it. This is an awesome question. I'm not OK with refusing to provide a service to homosexual couples, and as much as SSH turns my stomach, I'm not OK with denying her service. But I will say they are not exactly equivalent. The gay couple was turned away for their sexual orientation, a protected status. SSH was turned away for being a lying, morally bankrupt propaganda machine, which technically is not a protected status. |
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 14:57:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:15:21 GMT
You know that if it would have been, the Liberal press would have been all over it. I remember the good old days when being conservative wasn't based upon hatred of liberals. It was actually a political ideology. I remember the good old days when being a conservative wasn't looked on as being a vial person. Those days are apparently gone. Talk about hate??? I think you need to look a little further before you spue that sentence around. |
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 14:57:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:16:19 GMT
As a purely theoretical discussion, why are people not ok with Sarah not being served at the Red Hen but applauding the Supreme Court ruling on the baker refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple. Conversely, why are people upset about a baker denying a gay couple service but not upset about a restaurant denying Sarah service. Cognitive dissonance at it’s finest. Pick a principle and stick with it. This is an awesome question. I'm not OK with refusing to provide a service to homosexual couples, and as much as SSH turns my stomach, I'm not OK with denying her service. But I will say they are not exactly equivalent. The gay couple was turned away for their sexual orientation, a protected status. SSH was turned away for being a lying, morally bankrupt propaganda machine, which technically is not a protected status. hate much? |
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,097
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Post by used2scrap on Jun 23, 2018 19:20:35 GMT
Enjoying the discussion here. So far no name calling. I like that. I love hearing things that make me think. I often see both sides to an issue and argue both sides in my head to clarify my thinking. Sometimes there are no easy answers and I get overwhemed by the complexity because to fix one thing you end up breaking another. That said, I believe in the power of one person making a difference. What can we do to bridge the gap between the right and left and how do we encourage polite discourse? Could the power of the peas create solutions to problems? Could we lay aside our preconceived concepts and create real solutions. I for one believe we can if we try. I think the largest problem is how far away from fiscal issues politics has become. It is quite hard for people to compromise on moral/social issues people see as right or wrong. And saying liberals are hysterical is name calling. |
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 14:57:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:26:32 GMT
Enjoying the discussion here. So far no name calling. I like that. I love hearing things that make me think. I often see both sides to an issue and argue both sides in my head to clarify my thinking. Sometimes there are no easy answers and I get overwhemed by the complexity because to fix one thing you end up breaking another. That said, I believe in the power of one person making a difference. What can we do to bridge the gap between the right and left and how do we encourage polite discourse? Could the power of the peas create solutions to problems? Could we lay aside our preconceived concepts and create real solutions. I for one believe we can if we try. I think the largest problem is how far away from fiscal issues politics has become. It is quite hard for people to compromise on moral/social issues people see as right or wrong. And saying liberals are hysterical is name calling. did you happen to see this about Sarah a couple of posts above?
SSH was turned away for being a lying, morally bankrupt propaganda machine, which technically is not a protected status.
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Post by sabrinae on Jun 23, 2018 19:35:00 GMT
I do think there is a difference in denying service to an individual vs denying service to a class of people when you are a place of public accommodation. That said, I don’t support denying service in either case. I am interested more on your thoughts on this. Can you elaborate? At a very basic level, denying service to an entire class of people because of an immutable characteristic is different, to me and historically in legal theory, to denying service to one individual because you believe they are a shitty person and you don’t like them. Protecting people’s rights to participate in society, use public accommodations, and to equal protection under the law has historically been done due to a persons protected class — what a protected class is has changed as we have progressed as a country. Race, religion, and gender have legal precedent as protected classes. Ie: you (general) can’t discriminate against someone because of their status as a member of a protected class. Sexual orientation has been slowly added as a protected class — through statute in many states that explicitly protect sexual orientation or through court decisions in other cases. Most legal scholars, at this point, include sexual orientation as a protected class after the Supreme Court cases that led to the legalization of same sex marriage. To discriminate against a protected class by refusing service is different than refusing service to an individual because you believe their actions are wrong and unjust. |
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 14:57:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:38:13 GMT
Why is it not okay for Starbucks to ask two black men to leave but it is okay to ask Sarah to leave? Let’s remove the race and remove what job Sarah holds. These are two companies asking someone to leave. They have the right to ask someone to leave. Instead we cry out Starbucks is racist but applaud Red Hen.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,097
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Post by used2scrap on Jun 23, 2018 19:42:03 GMT
Why is it not okay for Starbucks to ask two black men to leave but it is okay to ask Sarah to leave? Let’s remove the race and remove what job Sarah holds. These are two companies asking someone to leave. They have the right to ask someone to leave. Instead we cry out Starbucks is racist but applaud Red Hen. You cannot remove race, it is a legally protected class. |
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 14:57:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:44:44 GMT
Why is it not okay for Starbucks to ask two black men to leave but it is okay to ask Sarah to leave? Let’s remove the race and remove what job Sarah holds. These are two companies asking someone to leave. They have the right to ask someone to leave. Instead we cry out Starbucks is racist but applaud Red Hen. You cannot remove race, it is a legally protected class. It’s protected but we should remove the race and and how we feel about Sarah and treat everyone the same. Businesses have a right to deny service - it doesn’t matter if they’re gay, black or their beliefs |
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pinklady
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,069
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Post by pinklady on Jun 23, 2018 19:46:48 GMT
Why is it not okay for Starbucks to ask two black men to leave but it is okay to ask Sarah to leave? Let’s remove the race and remove what job Sarah holds. These are two companies asking someone to leave. They have the right to ask someone to leave. Instead we cry out Starbucks is racist but applaud Red Hen. A black person cannot change the color of their skin. Sarah can stop lying. Big difference. |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 24, 2024 14:57:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:48:12 GMT
Why is it not okay for Starbucks to ask two black men to leave but it is okay to ask Sarah to leave? Let’s remove the race and remove what job Sarah holds. These are two companies asking someone to leave. They have the right to ask someone to leave. Instead we cry out Starbucks is racist but applaud Red Hen. A black person cannot change the color of their skin. Sarah can stop lying. Big difference. No it isn’t... we need to stop labeling people and treat each one with the same respect. |
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Post by elaine on Jun 23, 2018 19:50:43 GMT
You cannot remove race, it is a legally protected class. It’s protected but we should remove the race and and how we feel about Sarah and treat everyone the same. Businesses have a right to deny service - it doesn’t matter if they’re gay, black or their beliefs But that is not the law nor the Constitution. It DOES matter, legally. Don’t like it, move to another country that doesn’t follow our Constitution. |
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Post by elaine on Jun 23, 2018 19:51:34 GMT
Why is it not okay for Starbucks to ask two black men to leave but it is okay to ask Sarah to leave? Let’s remove the race and remove what job Sarah holds. These are two companies asking someone to leave. They have the right to ask someone to leave. Instead we cry out Starbucks is racist but applaud Red Hen. Who here applauded the Red Hen? |
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 14:57:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:52:42 GMT
It’s protected but we should remove the race and and how we feel about Sarah and treat everyone the same. Businesses have a right to deny service - it doesn’t matter if they’re gay, black or their beliefs But that is not the law nor the Constitution. It DOES matter, legally. Don’t like it, move to another country that doesn’t follow our Constitution. I don’t like how we can give someone a free pass because they are black. |
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 14:57:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:53:10 GMT
Why is it not okay for Starbucks to ask two black men to leave but it is okay to ask Sarah to leave? Let’s remove the race and remove what job Sarah holds. These are two companies asking someone to leave. They have the right to ask someone to leave. Instead we cry out Starbucks is racist but applaud Red Hen. Who here applauded the Red Hen? They had the right to refuse to serve her. |
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Post by elaine on Jun 23, 2018 19:56:40 GMT
Who here applauded the Red Hen? They had the right to refuse to serve her. Stating that they had the right to refuse her is NOT applauding them. It was stating a fact. Applauding is saying “yay for them for doing x.” Show me who here applauded. who? And Donnie says that liberals are “hysterical.” |
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Post by dewryce on Jun 23, 2018 19:56:40 GMT
But that is not the law nor the Constitution. It DOES matter, legally. Don’t like it, move to another country that doesn’t follow our Constitution. I don’t like how we can give someone a free pass because they are black. I don't remember all the details. Can you please expand on the free pass the gentlemen at Starbucks received? Or that black people in general receive? |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 23, 2018 19:57:27 GMT
But that is not the law nor the Constitution. It DOES matter, legally. Don’t like it, move to another country that doesn’t follow our Constitution. I don’t like how we can give someone a free pass because they are black. Well, I don't like that you're a racist, but here we are. |
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Post by elaine on Jun 23, 2018 19:59:17 GMT
But that is not the law nor the Constitution. It DOES matter, legally. Don’t like it, move to another country that doesn’t follow our Constitution. I don’t like how we can give someone a free pass because they are black. And with that, you go on “block.” Anyone who utters what you posted is too stupid and racist to merit my time reading her posts. |
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 14:57:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 20:12:31 GMT
leftturnonly What a wonderfully thought out and worded post. Thanks so much for sharing, and once again, you put to words what I'm thinking. I just can't get it all out, lol.
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Post by redhead32 on Jun 23, 2018 20:28:10 GMT
Why is it not okay for Starbucks to ask two black men to leave but it is okay to ask Sarah to leave? Let’s remove the race and remove what job Sarah holds. These are two companies asking someone to leave. They have the right to ask someone to leave. Instead we cry out Starbucks is racist but applaud Red Hen. I think people have all been in agreement that neither is OK. Legally, however, there is a difference. Protected classes have additional protections because of the historical discrimination that they have received. So, from a legal perspective, you can't remove someone from a business because of their race (or sex, or orientation, or age, etc.). From a legal perspective, you can refuse service to people for reasons that don't violate anti-discrimination laws. As I said above, I don't think either should be refused service. I do think that they are legally different, though. |
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Post by redhead32 on Jun 23, 2018 20:30:10 GMT
You cannot remove race, it is a legally protected class. It’s protected but we should remove the race and and how we feel about Sarah and treat everyone the same. Businesses have a right to deny service - it doesn’t matter if they’re gay, black or their beliefs That may be your personal philosophy, but it isn't what the law in our country says right now. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 23, 2018 20:31:57 GMT
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Post by redhead32 on Jun 23, 2018 20:32:00 GMT
I think the largest problem is how far away from fiscal issues politics has become. It is quite hard for people to compromise on moral/social issues people see as right or wrong. And saying liberals are hysterical is name calling. did you happen to see this about Sarah a couple of posts above?
SSH was turned away for being a lying, morally bankrupt propaganda machine, which technically is not a protected status.
Ok, Donnie. I'll bite. If this wasn't the reason that SSH was turned away by the restaurant, then what was the reason? They disliked her politics and what they believed to be her lying for the president. Not her race. Not exactly sure why you are outraged? ETA: I used my own shorthand. I should not have done that. The restaurant owner was much more diplomatic and used words like "inhumane" and "unethical" to describe the policies that SSH defends for the administration. I could have been gentler in my phrasing. I was thinking more about the distinction between protected class and non-protected class and was careless with my words. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 23, 2018 20:43:56 GMT
Thoughts on whether Sanders committed an ethics violation?
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Post by redhead32 on Jun 23, 2018 20:47:34 GMT
I remember the good old days when being conservative wasn't based upon hatred of liberals. It was actually a political ideology. I remember the good old days when being a conservative wasn't looked on as being a vial person. Those days are apparently gone. Talk about hate??? I think you need to look a little further before you spue that sentence around. It would be pretty silly for me to hate conservatives and consider them all vile, since I lean that way on several issues. I have not once condemned all conservatives or called them vile. But I'm beyond sick and tired of blanket labels about libtards and liberal tears. I live in a very conservative area, and have been shut down multiple times as a non-christian baby killer for not voting for Trump from people I used to go to church with. I've been told that immigrants - especially Muslims - are here to kill us all and take over our country. I've been told that we need to get rid of all that welfare for those welfare queens (whatever that means) even though I know many of my conservative neighbors receive government assistance of various sorts for their families. Even on this very thread, presumably for conservatives only, there is at least one person who thinks that black people get a free pass. I get that bad behavior exists on both sides of the aisle. But don't play the victim here. You have attacked "liberals" in multiple ways, especially over the last couple of days, and accused them of bad behavior. You want better behavior from those hysterical liberals? Model it. |
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Post by dewryce on Jun 23, 2018 20:47:49 GMT
I reached my limit and can't view the article. Would someone be able to give a very brief summary, or is it something that I really need to whole thing? |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 23, 2018 20:49:42 GMT
I reached my limit and can't view the article. Would someone be able to give a very brief summary, or is it something that I really need to whole thing?
Her phone rang about 8 p.m. It was the chef at the Red Hen, the tiny farm-to-table restaurant that she co-owned just off Main Street in Lexington, Va.
Sarah Huckabee Sanders had just walked in and sat down, the chef informed her.
“He said the staff is a little concerned. What should we do?” Wilkinson told The Washington Post. “I said I’d be down to see if it’s true.”
It seemed unlikely to her that President Trump’s press secretary should be dining at a 26-seat restaurant in rural Virginia. But then, it was unlikely that her entire staff would have misidentified Sanders, who had arrived last to a table of eight booked under her husband’s name.
As she made the short drive to the Red Hen, Wilkinson knew only this:
She knew Lexington, population 7,000, had voted overwhelmingly against Trump in a county that voted overwhelmingly for him. She knew the community was deeply divided over such issues as Confederate flags. She knew, she said, that her restaurant and its half-dozen servers and cooks had managed to stay in business for 10 years by keeping politics off the menu.
And she knew — she believed — that Sarah Huckabee Sanders worked in the service of an “inhumane and unethical” administration. That she publicly defended the president’s cruelest policies, and that that could not stand.
“I’m not a huge fan of confrontation,” Wilkinson said. “I have a business, and I want the business to thrive. This feels like the moment in our democracy when people have to make uncomfortable actions and decisions to uphold their morals.”
When she walked into the restaurant, Wilkinson saw that there had been no mistake. The Red Hen is no bigger than some apartments, and the group table was impossible to miss: Sanders in a black dress, her husband, three or four men and women of roughly similar ages, and an older couple.
“They had cheese boards in front of them,” Wilkinson said. Like any other family. The kitchen was already preparing the party’s main course. Wilkinson interrupted to huddle with her workers.
Several Red Hen employees were gay, she said. They knew Sanders had defended Trump’s desire to bar transgender people from the military. This month, they had all watched her evade questions and defend a Trump policy that caused migrant children to be separated from their parents.
“Tell me what you want me to do. I can ask her to leave,” Wilkinson told her staff, she said. “They said yes.”
It was important to Wilkinson, she said, that Sanders had already been served — that her staff had not simply refused her on sight. And it was important to her that Sanders was a public official, not just a customer with whom she disagreed, many of whom were included in her regular clientele.
All the same, she was tense as she walked up to the press secretary’s chair.
“I said, ‘I’m the owner,’ ” she recalled, ” ‘I’d like you to come out to the patio with me for a word.’ ”
They stepped outside, into another small enclosure, but at least out of the crowded restaurant.
“I was babbling a little, but I got my point across in a polite and direct fashion,” Wilkinson said. “I explained that the restaurant has certain standards that I feel it has to uphold, such as honesty, and compassion, and cooperation.
“I said, ‘I’d like to ask you to leave.’ ”
Wilkinson didn’t know how Sanders would react, or whether Trump’s chief spokeswoman had been called out in a restaurant before — as the president’s homeland security secretary had been days earlier.
Sanders’s response was immediate, Wilkinson said: ” ‘ That’s fine. I’ll go.’ ”
Sanders went back to the table, picked up her things and walked out. The others at her table had been welcome to stay, Wilkinson said. But they didn’t, so the servers cleared away the cheese plates and glasses.
“They offered to pay,” Wilkinson said. “I said, ‘No. It’s on the house.’ ”
At the end of the shift, Wilkinson said, staff members left the usual overnight note in the kitchen for the morning manager: a problem with the credit card machine. Restock vodka and tequila.
If you’ve ever heard the term “to 86 someone,” it comes from the restaurant industry — code for table eviction.
“86 – Sara Huckabee Sanders,” read the note, below the reminder to buy more Pellegrino.
One of the servers photographed the whiteboard before going home Friday. He had posted it to his public Facebook wall by the time Wilkinson woke up Saturday. For all the angst that evening, Wilkinson said, everything had taken place with decorum. She had been polite; Sanders had been polite; the press secretary’s family had been polite as they followed her out the door.
Not so much the rest of the world, as it discovered Red Hen waiter Jaike Foley-Schultz’s post: “I just served Sarah huckabee sanders for a total of 2 minutes before my owner asked her to leave.”
A fountain of alternately celebratory and outraged comments gushed from Foley-Schultz’s Facebook wall into the Red Hen’s social media accounts, then its Yelp review page.
Five stars: “Thank you for refusing to serve a person who lies to the American people for a living.”
One star: “They made some snide remark about a ‘spit souffle’ for the Florida nazi.’”
Between the fury and fawning of 2,000 people who almost certainly had not eaten at the restaurant, the Red Hen’s Yelp reviews almost instantly averaged out to two-and-a-half stars. Another Red Hen in Washington was at pains to make clear that it had no affiliation with Wilkinson’s place.
And that was before Sanders confirmed the story in a late morning tweet, including the restaurant’s name and location.
“I always do my best to treat people, including those I disagree with, respectfully and will continue to do so,” the press secretary wrote. “Her actions say far more about her than about me.”
Wilkinson doesn’t know where all this will leave the Red Hen when the news coverage dies down — or even when it opens again for dinner Saturday, for that matter.
Wilkinson was on her way to a Main Street festival before then. She had helped organize it — under one of the other hats she wears around Lexington, besides politically conscious restaurateur. She wasn’t sure what her neighbors would have to say about the news.
“This is a small enough town, and we’re known,” she said optimistically. “This is not going to be a giant surprise to anyone.”
But even as she spoke, “Red Hen” was trending toward the top of Twitter, national photographers were en route to the restaurant, and conservatives were calling for protests and boycotts, or trolling its reservation line, while liberals suggested campaigns to reward it.
“Whatever happens, we will soldier on,” Wilkinson said.
And she added: “Absolutely, yes, I would have done the same thing again. . . . We just felt there are moments in time when people need to live their convictions. This appeared to be one.” |
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