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Post by Embri on Mar 23, 2019 22:45:01 GMT
When you complain about how the Chinese are hurting you. I can tell you for a fact it's because you did it! You push the consumers to the Chinese. China has knock-off products. This is definitely the case with me. Would I prefer original products? Of course - but I can't justify the cost at the prices the American companies charge, once the exchange rate, ridiculous shipping, customs fees, taxes and duty are all factored in. That 30$ die easily becomes 80$ or more, and that's if I can even find a place that'll ship to where I live. There are exceptionally few domestic sources for non-US crafters, and they need to offer a better cost/benefit improvement than 10% extra quality for 900% extra cost. |
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josie29
Junior Member
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Post by josie29 on Mar 24, 2019 1:31:48 GMT
Why on earth are they going after a smaller company like Avery Elle (well, anyone for that matter!)? Over on Splitcoaststampers, a thread has just started about it and someone said that The Ton will no longer be selling co-ordinating dies. I looked it up on The Ton's blog and you can read the announcement here: thetonstampsblog.com/2019/03/05/new-washi-tape-release/ Scroll down to almost the end of the post. Now, I am not sure whether this is connected to the other companies being sued but the timing of it seems coincidental. |
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Post by anniefb on Mar 24, 2019 2:07:50 GMT
Why on earth are they going after a smaller company like Avery Elle That's what caught my eye as well. |
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Post by Embri on Mar 24, 2019 5:00:46 GMT
Why on earth are they going after a smaller company like Avery Elle That's what caught my eye as well. Small companies are less likely to be able to afford to mount a legal defence. Doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, if you can't pay enough to play. Legal bullying at its finest. |
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Deleted
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Nov 25, 2024 9:32:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 11:47:32 GMT
Boy, you can tell I was in a mood yesterday, lol. I did read the legal filing on all the companies. That was a long list and really shocking to see. I do remember Sizzix releasing those chemically etched dies. Like I have said before my legal expertise is nil and limited to law TV shows. I do remember those type of dies coming to the market. My issue with them is did they try other avenues to resolve before filing lawsuits? I really do hope they tried to work out something legally before they did all of this. I don't mean their cease and desist. I am so confused about this lawsuit. These etched dies are chemistry. I don't know how Sizzix believes that their exact process was used. I know Spellbinder's also released their version of etched dies too. If memory serves me correct it was before Sizzix. I am not talking about thin rule but how they are etched. My dyslexia is bad tonight.  Please be kind on my mistakes. The etching of the monkey in Stephanie's filing- litigationtools.maxval-ip.com/UnifiedPatentViewDocument/home/index?caseid=219511 as an example. I know Spellbinders dies were not like Sizzix in the etching. That leads me to believe their chemical process was used differently. I know Sizzix will probably not sue Spellbinders. If they do I am betting on Spellbinder's because we know how they are with lawsuits, lol. How can Sizzix prove that the other companies used their exact formula and not a different processes? We are talking chemistry here and not an exact prototype. I am not a chemist either. I know my chemist friends tell me all the time chemistry is not an exact science. Also like Avery Elle's examples on their filing- litigationtools.maxval-ip.com/UnifiedPatentViewDocument/home/index?caseid=219511 This is the dies that match the stamps. I really don't remember Sizzix being the first company to do this. I am not saying they were not the first company to do this. I just can't remember. I thought it was somebody else. Why is Sizzix suing now? These die/stamp combinations have been an industry standard for a very long time. Why all of a sudden say your patent is being stolen or abused? We all have very strong opinions on the MISTI but I think most of us can agree she didn't wait years to sue Tonic and other companies over their stamp press. She threw out the lawsuits fairly quickly. Sizzix just setting on their hands waiting. It seems strange to me. It seems that Sizzix is losing a lot of money and now they want to go after other companies. This industry is just messy and mean, IMO. That is my verdict. Just a messy and mean industry. How can they all stand there during Creativation and be friendly to each other is beyond me when everyone is suing each other. Embri I hear you about die prices. I am in the USA. I can't afford it either. Some of those dies have such high price tags. I always thought die cutting was for the rich or design team's. Making one card could cost you $200. That's not snarky, that's a fact if you bought all those dies. I know a lot of us use to talk about the prices. That's why a lot of us owned electric cutters. Even buying multiple cutters was cheaper than buying dies. Even owning a Cricut when it was cartridge base was cheaper than buying dies. Least with the Cricut you could get a cartridge with hundreds of images cheaper than one die. Die cutting was an elitist craft that was not in reach for most. Do you all remember when we ran out and bought Elegant Edges Cricut cartridge when it first came out? We were so excited to get a whole cartridge of "Nestabilities". Those were the days, lol. |
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pinklady
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,071
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Post by pinklady on Mar 24, 2019 14:49:43 GMT
Why on earth are they going after a smaller company like Avery Elle (well, anyone for that matter!)? Over on Splitcoaststampers, a thread has just started about it and someone said that The Ton will no longer be selling co-ordinating dies. I looked it up on The Ton's blog and you can read the announcement here: thetonstampsblog.com/2019/03/05/new-washi-tape-release/ Scroll down to almost the end of the post. Now, I am not sure whether this is connected to the other companies being sued but the timing of it seems coincidental. Wow! I can’t say im surprised by The Tons decision and I’m afraid this is how the smaller companies are going to respond. This sucks. I’m guessing a lot of people will invest in a scan and cut. |
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Post by riley on Mar 24, 2019 16:17:39 GMT
I guess I won’t be buying another Big Shot.
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Post by anniefb on Mar 24, 2019 17:02:36 GMT
I wonder if other companies are going to stop making dies? I remember back a few years ago when Spellbinders had the patent for outline dies and a number of companies like PTI were making solid dies instead so as not to infringe then Spellbinders lost the patent and more companies moved to do coordinating dies you could actually see through. Maybe the tide has turned again.
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Post by Embri on Mar 24, 2019 17:39:33 GMT
Embri I hear you about die prices. I am in the USA. I can't afford it either. Some of those dies have such high price tags. I always thought die cutting was for the rich or design team's. Making one card could cost you $200. That's not snarky, that's a fact if you bought all those dies. I know a lot of us use to talk about the prices. That's why a lot of us owned electric cutters. Even buying multiple cutters was cheaper than buying dies. Even owning a Cricut when it was cartridge base was cheaper than buying dies. Least with the Cricut you could get a cartridge with hundreds of images cheaper than one die. Die cutting was an elitist craft that was not in reach for most. Do you all remember when we ran out and bought Elegant Edges Cricut cartridge when it first came out? We were so excited to get a whole cartridge of "Nestabilities". Those were the days, lol. It doesn't even make sense to me why dies are so expensive other than 'because they can charge that much and people are willing to pay'. Certainly it's not the cost of materials or manufacture, or even the art cost - that's a one time investment, even if it's a large number up front, which it doesn't have to be given there's no shortage of artists-for-hire that do vector. Heck even at AliEx prices (1-4$ a die) it gets expensive putting together some of my projects. I used eight(!) different sets for the phoenix I made recently. No way that would have been feasible at US retail cost, which is sad because the bigger your die selection the more possibilities open up. It's like Lego. I've looked at electric cutters but the nature of their consumables (mats + blades) makes me leery of buying. At least with dies, if the machine goes kaput I can get any number of other models and they'll work just fine. The plates are easily replaced with off the shelf polycarbonate or cutting boards, readily available from many sources. But proprietary blades and special mats? Once the craft company feels it's not financially viable to keep making those, poof. Your expensive machine is now a deluxe paperweight. :\ |
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Post by gale w on Mar 24, 2019 17:59:40 GMT
I think sizzix changed ownership recently. Probably about the time people started complaining about bad customer service.
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GiantsFan
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,508
Site Supporter
Jun 27, 2014 14:44:56 GMT
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Post by GiantsFan on Mar 24, 2019 21:59:37 GMT
This might just give me the kick I need to finally figure out the PixScan mat or purchase a Scan n Cut.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 25, 2019 4:15:35 GMT
Embri I hear you about die prices. I am in the USA. I can't afford it either... I know a lot of us use to talk about the prices. That's why a lot of us owned electric cutters. Even buying multiple cutters was cheaper than buying dies. Even owning a Cricut when it was cartridge base was cheaper than buying dies. I've looked at electric cutters but the nature of their consumables (mats + blades) makes me leery of buying. At least with dies, if the machine goes kaput I can get any number of other models and they'll work just fine. The plates are easily replaced with off the shelf polycarbonate or cutting boards, readily available from many sources. But proprietary blades and special mats? Once the craft company feels it's not financially viable to keep making those, poof. Your expensive machine is now a deluxe paperweight. :\ You don't have to worry about an electronic cutter becoming obsolete if you buy a machine with a reliable track record. Silhouette machines are made by a company called Graphtec. Graphtec machines have been around for a lot of years. Different Cricut machines have come and gone, because Provo Craft loves to push customers to buy new machines on a regular basis. Silhouette machines, however, have pretty much stayed the same, with a few modifications. They are the least likely electronic cutter to become an obsolete paper weight. The original Cameo can use any of the Silhouette blades, and the mats are still the same. (And the Wishblade, which was also made by Graphtec, can also use Silhouette blades and mats; it can even work with the Silhouette software, so it does not have to be a paperweight, unlike discontinued Cricut machines..) Silhouette updates their software to add new features, rather than making a new machine and discontinuing the old ones. Nicapa mats work great in my Silhouette Cameo and cost far less than Silhouette mats. I buy the Silhouette Premium blades when they go on sale at Silhouette. There are also ways to get extra life out of your blades and mats. An electronic cutter is definitely cheaper in the long run than continuing to buy matching dies. You can scan in any stamp or stamp set to make a jpg file, which you can turn into a cutting file. With a stamp platform, you can use the "cut first, stamp second" method. Matching dies are convenient, and they can be quicker than using an electronic cutter, but dies do cost more in the long run. The electronic cutters also require users to be willing (or have time) to learn the software, etc. I am not saying that electronic cutters are for everyone. They are a big, up front expense, which most of us have to save up for. Dies are faster and easier. What I am saying is that the risk of them becoming a paper weight, the way some Cricut machines and Wishblade did, is very low with Silhouette. I agree that manual die cutting has zero risk that way. I still have my original Cuttlebug. It has been a work horse. However, the electronic machines are less expensive than buying dies every time you want a new design. Electronic cutting files can be found for free or for very little expense. You can create your own designs if you are willing to spend the time. I do still sometimes buy dies, because sometimes I just like the designs. Dies have ine other advantage: you can still use them, even if the power goes out. With electronic cutting files, you can also adjust the size, and more. I don't always need to match stamps. If Sizzix does succeed in driving all of their competition out of business, I will be able to keep on cutting anything and everything I need to with my Silhouette Cameo. |
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Post by mcjunkin on Mar 25, 2019 14:45:51 GMT
Yana Smakula posted a blog post yesterday titled "5 Ways to Use Etched Dies". Coincidence? No mention of the lawsuit. I don't recall seeing many people refer to the dies specifically as etched. She seems to have examples from several different companies. Just odd that that term popped up after circulation of news of the lawsuit. May be nothing, though, and have nothing to do with anything. Just thought it was interesting. 5 Ways to Use Etched Dies |
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Mar 25, 2019 18:40:46 GMT
There are more companies with coordinating dies than there are/were producing stamping tools. I hope that the companies being sued band together.
I'm definitely not a lawyer (and do not play one on TV, either), but I'm curious if there is a way for the companies being sued to fight together (sort of like a reverse class action) or at least share legal counsel so the smaller companies can have some of the benefits that the larger ones can afford.
Given Jennifer McGuire's bias having worked with Hero Arts, taking what I heard from her as definitive is not foolproof, but she has stated that one of the best things about Hero is that the owner actually helps to create their very own competition. He believes that competition is good for the market and has helped other businesses get off the ground (she specifically mentioned Simon Says Stamp's owner...possibly others, but Simon is the only one that stuck) and shares his knowledge and experience. What a day and night perspective these 2 companies have.
Is the market really shrinking this badly that businesses need to take each other out in order to keep the lights on? I am wondering if this is one of those unforeseen consequences from the Chinese knockoffs. The options and stolen works have only been skyrocketing since it all started a year or two ago.
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Post by Embri on Mar 25, 2019 19:20:37 GMT
There are also ways to get extra life out of your blades and mats. An electronic cutter is definitely cheaper in the long run than continuing to buy matching dies. You can scan in any stamp or stamp set to make a jpg file, which you can turn into a cutting file. With a stamp platform, you can use the "cut first, stamp second" method. I don't really use stamps so that's not a benefit or a concern of mine, but good to know all the same. My main hangup is investing in a tool who's long term usability hinges on a single company. Even, say, Copic Markers should Limited Too. ever fail can still be used with other ink refills. But the craft company plotters simply won't work anymore - unless someone figures out how to 3D print replacement parts or another manufacturer steps in - should the parent company go under. I realize it's probably a silly hangup, but it feels like too big of a risk to me, not to mention those replacement blades/mats are usually very expensive vs. more common hobby knife blades or cutting mats. *shrugs* I'm happy with my die collection for the foreseeable future. Is the market really shrinking this badly that businesses need to take each other out in order to keep the lights on? I am wondering if this is one of those unforeseen consequences from the Chinese knockoffs. The options and stolen works have only been skyrocketing since it all started a year or two ago. Chinese dies have been around longer than two years, haven't they? *chin tap* Regardless, having fewer options isn't good for the long term health of the industry. At this point even if every NA and EU company stopped making new products, the Chinese market would still thrive. Heck it'd probably be better than ever since they'd be the only remaining game in town. Already there are designers who release their products exclusively through AliExpress sellers. I've been seeing more use of commercial clipart and cutting files to create die sets too. The US companies need to step up to the plate and make their products more affordable or better value if they don't want to be cut out completely. |
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Mar 25, 2019 19:25:27 GMT
There are also ways to get extra life out of your blades and mats. An electronic cutter is definitely cheaper in the long run than continuing to buy matching dies. You can scan in any stamp or stamp set to make a jpg file, which you can turn into a cutting file. With a stamp platform, you can use the "cut first, stamp second" method. I don't really use stamps so that's not a benefit or a concern of mine, but good to know all the same. My main hangup is investing in a tool who's long term usability hinges on a single company. Even, say, Copic Markers should Limited Too. ever fail can still be used with other ink refills. But the craft company plotters simply won't work anymore - unless someone figures out how to 3D print replacement parts or another manufacturer steps in - should the parent company go under. I realize it's probably a silly hangup, but it feels like too big of a risk to me, not to mention those replacement blades/mats are usually very expensive vs. more common hobby knife blades or cutting mats. *shrugs* I'm happy with my die collection for the foreseeable future. Is the market really shrinking this badly that businesses need to take each other out in order to keep the lights on? I am wondering if this is one of those unforeseen consequences from the Chinese knockoffs. The options and stolen works have only been skyrocketing since it all started a year or two ago. Chinese dies have been around longer than two years, haven't they? *chin tap* Regardless, having fewer options isn't good for the long term health of the industry. At this point even if every NA and EU company stopped making new products, the Chinese market would still thrive. Heck it'd probably be better than ever since they'd be the only remaining game in town. Already there are designers who release their products exclusively through AliExpress sellers. I've been seeing more use of commercial clipart and cutting files to create die sets too. The US companies need to step up to the plate and make their products more affordable or better value if they don't want to be cut out completely. Oh, I'm not at all justifying what Sizzix is doing...just speculating as to possible motives that caused the suing frenzy out of the blue. MSP's lawyers could have seen the lucrative nature of these ridiculous lawsuits and gone searching for more companies to convince their rights were being violated for all I know. I just find it really strange. If Sizzix does succeed in stifling the stamp plus coordinating die market, it will merely succeed in solidifying my need for a Scan N Cut...it won't cause me to buy their products more, so joke's on them...my business would still go elsewhere and to a machine that would pay for itself in die savings alone. |
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Post by Embri on Mar 25, 2019 22:00:30 GMT
Oh, I'm not at all justifying what Sizzix is doing...just speculating as to possible motives that caused the suing frenzy out of the blue. MSP's lawyers could have seen the lucrative nature of these ridiculous lawsuits and gone searching for more companies to convince their rights were being violated for all I know. I just find it really strange. If Sizzix does succeed in stifling the stamp plus coordinating die market, it will merely succeed in solidifying my need for a Scan N Cut...it won't cause me to buy their products more, so joke's on them...my business would still go elsewhere and to a machine that would pay for itself in die savings alone. Oh no, I didn't think you were trying to justify Sizzix's behaviour - I agree it's very strange to go after these small stamp companies. Surely they aren't expecting to win much in the way of damages, once all the lawyers get paid? And you make an excellent point that stifling other companies from making coordinating dies (which to me is such a SILLY thing to be able to 'own', like really? really? What's next, someone owns hearts or circles or a box card? ) is just going to drive more people to buy plotter-cutters. I don't know, fellow crafters. It seems like bollocks all around to me. |
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Mar 26, 2019 20:30:16 GMT
I just had a thought. Could companies make most of their dies smaller and put the cut lines on the outside edge? It probably wouldn't be as easy to line up, but you could do what should have been an obvious thing to do that Jennifer McGuire showed on her channel: Cut out the dies without stamping and use the negative/waste from the pass to line up your dies.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 26, 2019 23:55:29 GMT
I just had a thought. Could companies make most of their dies smaller and put the cut lines on the outside edge? It probably wouldn't be as easy to line up, but you could do what should have been an obvious thing to do that Jennifer McGuire showed on her channel: Cut out the dies without stamping and use the negative/waste from the pass to line up your dies. Most companies have at least some dies with the cutting edge in the middle. That is probably not in question. The techique that Heartfelt Creations shows on their website is the same one Jennifer McGuire showed on her channel. Since it predates the Sizzix patent application, HC should win on that issue. I'm prejudiced, but I would really like to see the courts slap Sizzix with civil penalties on that one "method" issue, anyway. |
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Mar 27, 2019 16:21:19 GMT
I almost felt compelled to sarcastically post 'watch out, sizzix is gonna sue you' on a Doodlebug post advertising the dies that coordinate with their stamps. For all I know, they actually have Sizzix doing the manufacturing.
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josie29
Junior Member
Posts: 92
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Post by josie29 on Mar 30, 2019 4:20:45 GMT
Someone just posted over on Splitcoaststampers that they received an email from Stephanie Barnard that her dies are now on clearance  I have lots of Stephanie's dies - and particularly love the Fold-Its ones. I think Sizzix are shooting themselves in the foot! |
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Post by freeatlast on Mar 30, 2019 14:23:46 GMT
I got an email from Sizzix with the Stephanie Barnard sale info. Dies are as low as $2.50. One I had purchased recently and thought was pretty new was marked down from $19.99 to $4.00. These are the ones Stephanie designed under the Sizzix brand.
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Post by riley on Mar 30, 2019 16:30:33 GMT
Sounds like the buckling is beginning. As a result of all this I went through and counted the number of dies I have that I have never used. It was about a third. Guess I’m set for a few years but still I find this annoying for the customer. I think Ellison got bad advice. Maybe they have been simmering for years over what they saw as infringement and MSP’s win encouraged them. Like others have said this will not force me into buying Sizzix anything including another Big Shot when mine conks.
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Post by gale w on Mar 30, 2019 17:52:04 GMT
I may be putting my big shot on the shelf and my gemini jr on the counter.
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josie29
Junior Member
Posts: 92
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Post by josie29 on Mar 31, 2019 2:00:09 GMT
I got an email from Sizzix with the Stephanie Barnard sale info. Dies are as low as $2.50. One I had purchased recently and thought was pretty new was marked down from $19.99 to $4.00. These are the ones Stephanie designed under the Sizzix brand. Does the email say that her dies will be no longer be made? And are they the matching dies to her stamped images or all dies? Just curious..... |
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Post by gale w on Mar 31, 2019 2:37:27 GMT
According to what I've read, Stephanie Barnard is still under contract with sizzix. That must be awkward.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451
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Post by scrapnnana on Mar 31, 2019 5:05:40 GMT
According to what I've read, Stephanie Barnard is still under contract with sizzix. That must be awkward. Really. |
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Post by freeatlast on Mar 31, 2019 11:34:40 GMT
I got an email from Sizzix with the Stephanie Barnard sale info. Dies are as low as $2.50. One I had purchased recently and thought was pretty new was marked down from $19.99 to $4.00. These are the ones Stephanie designed under the Sizzix brand. Does the email say that her dies will be no longer be made? And are they the matching dies to her stamped images or all dies? Just curious..... The email and the website say it's a clearance sale. It's only the Sizzix dies she developed, not what she sells under her Stamps of Life brand. Here's the link to the SB sale section. www.sizzix.com/catalog?crumb=&tag_special=1352 |
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Deleted
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Nov 25, 2024 9:32:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 10:26:41 GMT
Wow, just seeing this. Memory Box Co. has been making dies like this for many years. I worked for Dave (the owner) when he first released them. I really am sad about this whole thing. Really makes me sad they are going after the little guy too.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 3, 2019 0:00:08 GMT
Wow, just seeing this. Memory Box Co. has been making dies like this for many years. I worked for Dave (the owner) when he first released them. I really am sad about this whole thing. Really makes me sad they are going after the little guy too. I’m sad about this too  |
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Please be kind on my mistakes. The etching of the monkey in Stephanie's filing- 
I have lots of Stephanie's dies - and particularly love the Fold-Its ones. I think Sizzix are shooting themselves in the foot!
