scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451 
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 3, 2019 4:55:15 GMT
Wow, just seeing this. Memory Box Co. has been making dies like this for many years. I worked for Dave (the owner) when he first released them. I really am sad about this whole thing. Really makes me sad they are going after the little guy too. I’m sad about this too  That is what bothers me most. |
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scrappington
Pearl Clutcher
in Canada
Posts: 3,139
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Post by scrappington on Apr 4, 2019 15:35:17 GMT
When you complain about how the Chinese are hurting you. I can tell you for a fact it's because you did it! You push the consumers to the Chinese. China has knock-off products. This is definitely the case with me. Would I prefer original products? Of course - but I can't justify the cost at the prices the American companies charge, once the exchange rate, ridiculous shipping, customs fees, taxes and duty are all factored in. That 30$ die easily becomes 80$ or more, and that's if I can even find a place that'll ship to where I live. There are exceptionally few domestic sources for non-US crafters, and they need to offer a better cost/benefit improvement than 10% extra quality for 900% extra cost. How many companies are actually making their dies in the USA? I don't think it is a lot of them. The China dies "knock offs" are Im sure being made by the same manufacturer that the branded ones are. Ok so back in the day you had Sizzix with their bigz dies and sizzletts, Qk had the 4x4 and 2x2 dies, and then came spellbinders with their thin dies. Then the industry evolved and lots of companies were making dies...enter Memory Box. I used to think that there were only so many manufactures and that each smaller company was getting one of the big companies to make their dies for them. Does Sizzix actually have a factory that makes their dies? Or is it outsourced? |
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Post by riley on Apr 4, 2019 16:14:31 GMT
My understanding is that Sizzix dies are made in China. That’s what the packaging on my only two Sizzix dies says. Unless it has changed recently most if not all the US made dies are made by a company called Cheery Lynn (now renamed Makers Movement). I believe Memory Box dies are made by them. I noticed Makers Movement is also now selling a magnetic shim. I would have thought that Sizzix would have put a patent on that.
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scrappington
Pearl Clutcher
in Canada
Posts: 3,139
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Post by scrappington on Apr 4, 2019 17:12:06 GMT
My understanding is that Sizzix dies are made in China. That’s what the packaging on my only two Sizzix dies says. Unless it has changed recently most if not all the US made dies are made by a company called Cheery Lynn (now renamed Makers Movement). I believe Memory Box dies are made by them. I noticed Makers Movement is also now selling a magnetic shim. I would have thought that Sizzix would have put a patent on that. I have Cherry Lynn dies. Hmm interesting. Do you remember the time where it didn't matter what you bought scrappy wise and there were so many companies out there and lss were all over..and no one was suing anyone and the drama was at a minimal and only at the crop you went too. |
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Post by Embri on Apr 4, 2019 22:52:07 GMT
Does Sizzix actually have a factory that makes their dies? Or is it outsourced? Almost certainly outsourced. You have to be a titan in the manufacturing industry (Apple, Sony, an international car/clothing brand, etc.) to have your own dedicated factory + all the headaches that come with it. Virtually all small-to-middling-large companies contract their work -often through an intermediary company that specializes in overseas manufacturing logistics- which in turn may sub-contract out some or all of that work to others again. |
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Post by riley on Apr 6, 2019 3:22:51 GMT
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Post by gale w on Apr 6, 2019 4:58:14 GMT
That's an excellent summary of what's going on. Thank you. |
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josie29
Junior Member
Posts: 92
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Post by josie29 on Apr 6, 2019 10:53:52 GMT
Thank you for this - it shed a little more light on the whole scenario. I would certainly love to see a company fight it and win & put the whole issue to bed once and for all! |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 25, 2024 9:54:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2019 12:31:58 GMT
The more I read, the crazier it becomes. I am glad companies are fighting this. I hope Ellison loses. So very sad. |
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Post by mcjunkin on Apr 6, 2019 14:35:01 GMT
Who on earth approved a patent on the TECHNIQUE of putting die over an image, looking through the die to make sure it is lined up correctly, and running it through the machine? Is that not what you do with ANY die?? A particular style or make of die, yes. Technique? No.
Could somebody not patent the technique of doing anything then? Looking at the edge of an image, lining up the edge of the scissor, then cutting. Or lining up edge or border die on edge of paper, then running it through machine. Insanity.
Hopefully common sense will prevail. It will break my crafty heart, but as I have said before, no more Sizzix for me if they win. And I hate that. I have mostly sizzix dies, as I love the Tim Holtz ones. But sadly, nope.
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Post by anniefb on Apr 6, 2019 18:38:57 GMT
That was a really helpful explanation and all I can say is that this is another 'patent' like the spellbinders one which should never have been granted. Sizzix should be ashamed and I hope their patent is tossed out. All they're doing is stifling competition in a severely shrunken market.
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Post by Embri on Apr 6, 2019 21:31:21 GMT
Sizzix should never have been granted a patent for lining up dies with an image - that's like saying someone could own lining up a ruler to decide where to make your cut with a craft knife. Absolutely idiotic. For those who still want Sizzix products without supporting their bullying behaviour, I direct your attention to AliExpress. The only thing some companies seem to understand is money. :\
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 7, 2019 0:11:47 GMT
Thank you for posting that article. I am so glad that multiple companies are fighting it.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 7, 2019 3:52:59 GMT
Thank you for posting that article. I am so glad that multiple companies are fighting it. Me too. And I’m done with Sizzix. I know that’s easier for me to say then some as I have a Scan n Cut. |
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Post by riley on Apr 7, 2019 15:50:13 GMT
My Big Shot still has some mileage left but I’m thinking down the road. Of the manual cutters which ones beside the Sizzix brand do a good job?
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Post by twillerbee on Apr 7, 2019 16:40:54 GMT
Spellbinders. I just bought spellbinders platinum and I love it.
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GiantsFan
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,508
Site Supporter
Jun 27, 2014 14:44:56 GMT
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Post by GiantsFan on Apr 7, 2019 18:51:03 GMT
My Big Shot still has some mileage left but I’m thinking down the road. Of the manual cutters which ones beside the Sizzix brand do a good job? Last year I purchased the Spellbinders Platinum 6 to replace my old green Cuttlebug. I've been very happy with it. |
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Post by jackofallcrafts on Apr 7, 2019 22:13:25 GMT
Wow. This breaks my heart, as I have thousands of Sizzix/Ellison Designs dies. Guess they're not getting my money any more.  |
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josie29
Junior Member
Posts: 92
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Post by josie29 on Apr 8, 2019 7:39:22 GMT
Sizzix should never have been granted a patent for lining up dies with an image - that's like saying someone could own lining up a ruler to decide where to make your cut with a craft knife. Absolutely idiotic. For those who still want Sizzix products without supporting their bullying behaviour, I direct your attention to AliExpress. The only thing some companies seem to understand is money. :\ Totally agree that the patent should never have been granted IMHO. I downloaded and read the Complaint court document tendered by Ellison against Heartfelt Creations and I am certainly not an expert in law nor qualified in any legal way - but when I read the bit about being granted damages, court costs etc., I just can't fathom how ANY small company could possible afford to fight it risking that if they don't win, they could lose their business. Many years ago, my mother and her siblings went to court over the Will of my grandfather. Before they went to court, the lawyers for each party submitted all sorts of legal documents which went on for almost a year in an effort to settle the matter without needing to go to court but to no avail. The cost of the lawyers and the Court costs were HUGE as we spent 5 days in the Supreme Court (of Australia) and these costs were more than the estate was worth. And nobody won - except the lawyers. I am not surprised that some of the companies in the Ellison case just backed down rather than try & fight it - because even if you feel that your company being sued is unjustified, it boils down to economics. |
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 8, 2019 17:24:39 GMT
Sizzix should never have been granted a patent for lining up dies with an image - that's like saying someone could own lining up a ruler to decide where to make your cut with a craft knife. Absolutely idiotic. For those who still want Sizzix products without supporting their bullying behaviour, I direct your attention to AliExpress. The only thing some companies seem to understand is money. :\ Totally agree that the patent should never have been granted IMHO. I downloaded and read the Complaint court document tendered by Ellison against Heartfelt Creations and I am certainly not an expert in law nor qualified in any legal way - but when I read the bit about being granted damages, court costs etc., I just can't fathom how ANY small company could possible afford to fight it risking that if they don't win, they could lose their business. Many years ago, my mother and her siblings went to court over the Will of my grandfather. Before they went to court, the lawyers for each party submitted all sorts of legal documents which went on for almost a year in an effort to settle the matter without needing to go to court but to no avail. The cost of the lawyers and the Court costs were HUGE as we spent 5 days in the Supreme Court (of Australia) and these costs were more than the estate was worth. And nobody won - except the lawyers. I am not surprised that some of the companies in the Ellison case just backed down rather than try & fight it - because even if you feel that your company being sued is unjustified, it boils down to economics. The lawyers are often the only winners. Heartfelt Creations is a small mom & pop type company. They seem like super nice people. They are former Amish, so they may not be quite as experienced when it comes to crap like this. I don't know any of them personally, but I don't believe for one minute that they would ever steal anyone else's idea. They have beautiful, unique designs which they create themselves. It might have been a simultaneous design issue moving the cutting line to the inside, for which the law allows. Heartfelt Creations has been doing matching stamps and dies for a long time. According to their website, they were a stamp company first, back when they were still Amish. Then they created stamps that matched Spellbinder dies, and then they created their own dies. They had a technique for making a die template to get the perfect cut out of a stamped image, even with the cutting line in the middle of the thin die (as opposed to the inside edge). I've been a stamper for over 30 years, and Heartfelt Creations was the first ones I heard of that made matching stamps and dies (and definitely before Sizzix was making matching stamps and thin dies). I have loved their products ever since. Lawsuits often crush small companies. I will be absolutely sick if that happens to Heartfelt Creations. My one comfort is if they settle out of court, they can just continue to have matching stamps and dies that have the cutting line in the center of the die. Their technique of matching stamped images with the original thin dies would still work, and it definitely precedes the Sizzix patent application. I view this lawsuite as really slimy. Sizzix dies were originally steel rule dies. They jumped on the thin die bandwagon after they saw how popular the thin dies were. The Sizzix steel rule designs were never that great. So Sizzix got into doing thin dies to stay competitive. They did not invent the thin dies. All they did was move the cutting line and took advantage of the legal loophole to give themselves an advantage over their competitors. They should never have received a patent for making a derivative work of someone else's invention. |
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Post by Embri on Apr 9, 2019 0:24:20 GMT
Their technique of matching stamped images with the original thin dies would still work, and it definitely precedes the Sizzix patent application. I'm super-curious now, what technique is this? But yes, sadly the lawyers are the only guaranteed winners in legal cases. :c When one or two companies get far bigger than the rest of the field, legal bullying is more likely to happen - I wonder if that's why it took Sizzix this long to bring about its challenges, despite holding the patents for a number of years prior? |
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Post by gynergy on Apr 9, 2019 2:30:33 GMT
I’m so disgusted with Sizzix going after these small companies. I think I’ll use my big kick until I’m out of usable plates and then move on to something else (I have some extras and don’t use enough to run out too fast).
So what about Lawn Fawn? That’s the main brand I have of matching dies & stamps and would be heartbroken if their cute animals went away.
What about CathyZ and others who make & sell via Simon Says Stamp?
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 9, 2019 5:02:06 GMT
Their technique of matching stamped images with the original thin dies would still work, and it definitely precedes the Sizzix patent application. I'm super-curious now, what technique is this? It was on a Scrapbook Soup TV segment that was posted on Heartfelt Creation's website on July 6, 2011, which is prior to the date of the Sizzix patent application. The technique is a way of lining up thin dies that have the cutting line in the middle, and still perfectly cut out a stamped image that matches the dies. Heartfelt Creations technique |
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Post by Embri on Apr 9, 2019 7:29:29 GMT
It was on a Scrapbook Soup TV segment that was posted on Heartfelt Creation's website on July 6, 2011, which is prior to the date of the Sizzix patent application. The technique is a way of lining up thin dies that have the cutting line in the middle, and still perfectly cut out a stamped image that matches the dies. Heartfelt Creations techniqueAh, smart! That one's new to me, looks useful too. Thanks for the link.  |
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Post by riley on Apr 9, 2019 16:41:24 GMT
I may be only person in the world who isn’t taping and flipping. I do the template but not the flip. Good idea.
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Post by artisticscrapper on Apr 10, 2019 1:26:16 GMT
I wonder hoe Sizzix is selecting their victims. Are they all companies that have dies manufactured in China (maybe even at the same factory Sizzix uses). Gynergy mentioned Lawn Fawn. They state on their site their dies are manufactured in the US. Maybe the process is different? In any case I’m really getting sick of these craft bullies and Sizzix isn’t getting any more of my money. Sorry Tim.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 10, 2019 2:53:13 GMT
I wonder hoe Sizzix is selecting their victims. Are they all companies that have dies manufactured in China (maybe even at the same factory Sizzix uses). Gynergy mentioned Lawn Fawn. They state on their site their dies are manufactured in the US. Maybe the process is different? In any case I’m really getting sick of these craft bullies and Sizzix isn’t getting any more of my money. Sorry Tim. Aren't they all companies that make matching stamps and dies? Many of the dies made to match stamps seem to have the cutting line on the inside, like the dies listed in the Sizzix patent application. Heartfelt Creations was definitely making matching stamps and dies before Sizzix did. Accu-cut made a roller system die cut machine long before Sizzix/Ellison did. Spellbinders invented the thin chemically etched dies. Sizzix seems to have copied those, too, although so did a lot of other companies. Sizzix just moved the cutting line to the inside edge and applied for a patent, since the Spellbinders lawsuit had resulted in the Spellbinders patent being nullified. Sizzix apparently recognized and took advantage of that legal loophole. I think it is extremely hypocritical of Sizzix, after they seem to have copied other companies' ideas and technology at least 3 times, to now be suing smaller companies for supposedly copying a Sizzix variation. |
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Post by gale w on Apr 10, 2019 4:11:13 GMT
apparently stampin up is no longer using sizzix for their dies. Coincidence?
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Post by Embri on Apr 10, 2019 4:56:45 GMT
Once is coincidence, twice is happenstance, three times? Enemy action.
P'sure we're way past three strikes of anti-competitive behaviour from Sizzix by now. I wonder who SU! will be replacing them with? Maybe sub-contracting direct from China on their own?
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Post by anniefb on Apr 10, 2019 5:38:16 GMT
Once is coincidence, twice is happenstance, three times? Enemy action. P'sure we're way past three strikes of anti-competitive behaviour from Sizzix by now. I wonder who SU! will be replacing them with? Maybe sub-contracting direct from China on their own? That’s just what I was wondering as well. |
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