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Post by Embri on Apr 10, 2019 5:44:42 GMT
It's not like it'd get their stuff bootlegged any faster - seems like you can already get a lot of the SU! die/stamp sets from AliEx before they're even officially released. At least a lot of them pop up on the regular, so Sizzix isn't exactly doing a great job keeping SU!'s IP under wraps.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 10, 2019 15:24:13 GMT
It's not like it'd get their stuff bootlegged any faster - seems like you can already get a lot of the SU! die/stamp sets from AliEx before they're even officially released. At least a lot of them pop up on the regular, so Sizzix isn't exactly doing a great job keeping SU!'s IP under wraps. Good point. It's not just Ali Express, either. I found a really nice stamp on Amazon that was a low price, and from the name of the company and shipping time, I guessed it was coming from China. I bought the stamp, and only recently realized that it was a copy of a stamp made by SU. I'm sure there's a lot of bootlegging going on. I've been seeing other stuff on Amazon that is bootlegged, such as embossing folders by Apple Blossom (a UK company) that are out of stock on Craft Stash. |
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 10, 2019 15:24:41 GMT
It's not like it'd get their stuff bootlegged any faster - seems like you can already get a lot of the SU! die/stamp sets from AliEx before they're even officially released. At least a lot of them pop up on the regular, so Sizzix isn't exactly doing a great job keeping SU!'s IP under wraps. Good point. It's not just Ali Express, either. I found a really nice stamp on Amazon that was a low price, and from the name of the company and shipping time, I guessed it was coming from China. I bought the stamp, and only recently realized that it was a copy of a stamp made by SU. I'm sure there's a lot of bootlegging going on. I've been seeing other stuff on Amazon that is bootlegged, such as embossing folders by Apple Blossom (a UK company) that are out of stock on Craft Stash. |
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Post by Embri on Apr 10, 2019 22:31:56 GMT
All of the big online multi-vendor marketplaces have Chinese sellers these days. If they are offering free international shipping, it's near guaranteed. And there's just so much stuff out there, it's nigh impossible to recognize everything that might be copied. I don't even try, it's too much work. Just end up buying whatever I find appealing, affordable, and fills a hole in my toolset.
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Post by wendifful on Apr 13, 2019 0:14:34 GMT
Jennifer McGuire just posted a link to this statement from Hero Arts in her Instagram stories and said she stands with them. Here's the text of the post: "You may have heard that Ellison, the parent company of Sizzix, has made claims of patent infringement against a number of companies in our industry, including Hero Arts.
Just so you know, there is absolutely no reason to change any purchasing patterns with Hero Arts, as Hero Arts does not infringe, believes the lawsuit is without merit, and intends to fight this lawsuit and win for the good of Hero Arts and the industry. Whether we like it or not, the legal process is a method to resolve disputes, and we must let that play out.
There is no reason to allow a chill on creativity or a disruption to business to creep into our beloved industry despite the current situation. In fact, let's work to do just the opposite and rally together to make our community even stronger. Hero Arts and the other companies involved remain the same creative, reliable, top selling brands you trust and love.
If you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask us at info@heroarts.com or leave a comment." |
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Post by Embri on Apr 13, 2019 1:38:42 GMT
Good on them, but I do disagree with the 'no reason for a disruption to business', though for Sizzix, not Hero Arts.
Shame that all the attacked businesses couldn't pool their legal cases together for a joint defence. but I don't think that's how the American legal system works.
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tickledpink
One Post Wonder
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Apr 24, 2019 16:26:27 GMT
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Post by tickledpink on Apr 24, 2019 16:54:28 GMT
OK, Here is what I think. Sizzix must manufacture dies for loads of stamp and die companies. Sizzix has a patent for any dies that have the cutting blade right at the edge of the die so registration with stamped images is easy to accomplish. They filed and received a patent for this. I looked at the Heartfelt Creations video someone posted and they were using a die with the cutting blade in the middle of the die and showing how to use a paper frame of the die cut to align your die with a stamped image, it was not a blade on the edge die as in the SIzzix patent. The Sizzix cutting blade is right at the inner or outer edge of the die, not centered.
I assume Sizzix manufactures loads of dies for other stamp and die companies and has the right to allow those companies to use their patented edge technology. If a vendor (Stampin UP) or other creator (S Barnard) goes to a manufacturer other than Sizzix for die production they cannot use the blade on the edge technology without approval or agreement from the patent holder(Sizzix). I understand that everyone wants craft companies to get along, but the companies producing these products are trying to offer products and technologies that distinguish their products from others and gives them a competitive advantage.... That is business. A patent promises EXCLUSIVE use of an improvement, that promise is what motivates companies to develop new products and technologies.
It seems that Sizzix now has loads of competition from other die cutting machine companies. The Big Shot used to be the most popular, now crafters are featuring other machines. They were once the big Kahuna in die cutting machines and their market share may have been cut to 1/3 by Gemini and Spellbinders machine releases. Remember that your crafting hobby is supplied by businesses trying to make a profit for their owners. When they invest $$$$$ into a product they expect to gain from it. They are not charities.
Loads of stamp and die companies seem to be finding die manufacturers that are less expensive and are lowering die prices. If they are leaving Sizzix as a manufacturer, Sizzix has every right to protect the blade on the edge technology and offer the use of it to keep companies from using competing die manufacturers for production. That is business...... Take note! The other businesses also have the right to contest the patent if they have proof that the patent was without merit or not an original design feature! Just my 2 cents.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 24, 2019 21:43:17 GMT
You make some valid points, tickeledpink.
Welcome to the board. I hope you like it here, stick around, and continue to share your opinion. You definitely made some good points.
What bothers me about what Sizzix has done is they didn't invent the thin dies, they took advantage of a vaccum left by the Spellbinders vs. QuicKutz lawsuit. So did other companies. Then Sizzix made one tiny change and filed for the patent before anyone else thought of it. They made sure no one could do the same thing, but they have some history that affects my opinion. The Big Shot is a blatent copy of the orginal Accu-Cut machines, because their little red machine did not sell well. I don't know how they got away with copying Accu-Cut's design. Sizzix steel rule dies stopped selling well, and the matching stamp & thin dies market was probably hurting them in a big way. They copied those ideas, too, and started to make matching stamps and dies as well. They made one tiny change, and presto! They were able to get a patent.
I've been a stamper since 1986, and a scrapbooker since 1996. I watched Sizzix enter the market. I bought a LOT of their dies, and I have continued to do so. Until recently. I've also seen a lot of paper craft companies start up and grow over the years.
Heartfelt Creations is one of the companies being sued because they started making dies with the cutting line on the inside edge, too, and it was long enough ago that they may fall under the "simultaneous design" category. They were making stamps that matched Spellbinder dies before Sizzix probably thought of it, and possibly before any other company thought of it, but I do not know that for certain. Spellbinders made the Heartfelt Creations dies for a long time, but I do not know if they still do.
The courts will decide who is right, and who is wrong. That is going to take awhile.
In the meantime, regardless of the legal issues, there is the court of public opinion, which is what this thread is about. We are laying out our arguments, and as consumer members of the public opinion court, we get to vote with our wallets. We don't have to give our money to companies we feel are trying to destroy their competition. Like a judge or jury, we get to make a decision, too, regardless of what decision the legal courts make.
This isn't just about who is right or wrong, but who will still be in business when all is said and done. Sizzix has copied other companies' ideas and gotten away with it, but they are going after companies who they claim did the same thing to them, and they are apparently being very aggressive about it. Reportedly, some companies got cease and desist letters, while others just got served the legal papers for a lawsuit without Sizzix trying to resolve the issue in a civil manner. Sizzix has the legal right, but they are hypocrites, in my opinion, since they have imitated others themselves. It bothers me even more that they seem to be trying to destroy their competition.
I have no problem if you or anyone else wants to keep buying from Sizzix. It's your money and your choice. I won't criticize you or anyone else for that. You are entitled your your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine, and everyone here can decide whose arguments are the most persuasive. I've decided as a member of the jury of public opinion court that Sizzix doesn't get any more of my business.
Like the Cricut lawsuit of the past, this lawsuit has resulted in many people seriously considering buying electronic cutters so they can just stop buying dies. The Cricut lawsuit hurt Provo Craft. A lot of people got rid of their Cricut and bought the Silhouette Cameo instead. This lawsuit is likely to hurt Sizzix, also. I personally think that Sizzix is being stupid and short sighted. Just because they have the legal right to sue doesn't mean that they are going about this in the right way. I think they could have found a way to come to an agreement with these other companies, but they don't seem to have made much of an effort to do so.
Just my opinion.
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Post by Embri on Apr 24, 2019 22:56:52 GMT
Sizzix has the legal right, but they are hypocrites, in my opinion, since they have imitated others themselves. It bothers me even more that they seem to be trying to destroy their competition. Basically this. They were first to the patent office, not the first to invent the idea. Legally right ≠ ethically right. They could have offered to licence their 'technology' (I still don't think they should have a patent on such an obvious and minor alteration, but let's just roll with it for now) to other companies for a small fee, and everyone walks away richer. Instead they decided to bludgeon their competitors with the legal courts, and the only likely winners after the whole debacle gets settled are the lawyers. |
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Post by gale w on Apr 25, 2019 21:35:26 GMT
OK, Here is what I think. Sizzix must manufacture dies for loads of stamp and die companies. Sizzix has a patent for any dies that have the cutting blade right at the edge of the die so registration with stamped images is easy to accomplish. They filed and received a patent for this. I looked at the Heartfelt Creations video someone posted and they were using a die with the cutting blade in the middle of the die and showing how to use a paper frame of the die cut to align your die with a stamped image, it was not a blade on the edge die as in the SIzzix patent. The Sizzix cutting blade is right at the inner or outer edge of the die, not centered. I assume Sizzix manufactures loads of dies for other stamp and die companies and has the right to allow those companies to use their patented edge technology. If a vendor (Stampin UP) or other creator (S Barnard) goes to a manufacturer other than Sizzix for die production they cannot use the blade on the edge technology without approval or agreement from the patent holder(Sizzix). I understand that everyone wants craft companies to get along, but the companies producing these products are trying to offer products and technologies that distinguish their products from others and gives them a competitive advantage.... That is business. A patent promises EXCLUSIVE use of an improvement, that promise is what motivates companies to develop new products and technologies. It seems that Sizzix now has loads of competition from other die cutting machine companies. The Big Shot used to be the most popular, now crafters are featuring other machines. They were once the big Kahuna in die cutting machines and their market share may have been cut to 1/3 by Gemini and Spellbinders machine releases. Remember that your crafting hobby is supplied by businesses trying to make a profit for their owners. When they invest $$$$$ into a product they expect to gain from it. They are not charities. Loads of stamp and die companies seem to be finding die manufacturers that are less expensive and are lowering die prices. If they are leaving Sizzix as a manufacturer, Sizzix has every right to protect the blade on the edge technology and offer the use of it to keep companies from using competing die manufacturers for production. That is business...... Take note! The other businesses also have the right to contest the patent if they have proof that the patent was without merit or not an original design feature! Just my 2 cents. If that's the case (the bolded part) why are they suing? Because of the technique? If so then businesses could sue a lot of people who came up with a technique that *may* have been used and/or patented (can you even patent a technique??) in the past. Another thing is that Sizzix was bought out or under new management or something in the past year or so and about that time, their customer service tanked. It used to be that if you had a big shot that malfunctioned, they would send out the part or even a new machine without any trouble at all. Now, from what I understand, they don't even cover it at all. I get that that's why they have a limited time warranty but they used to help customers out if they had a broken product that was not under warranty. One person was looking to BUY a part for their machine (I believe it was the screw that holds the handle on) and they could not even do that. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 10:13:41 GMT
Hi everyone! Long time no hear.  I have been Spring cleaning and doing lots of gardening. I took a break from our favorite sue scaring mongering bullying industry, lol. Life is soooo good. I hope it's great for everyone else. I did miss you. Catching up on this Sizzix debacle. I have to admit this Sizzix one really angered me. Even with the Misti I always said she had a right to protect her legal property. I don't think she's a good person that she bullies. Sizzix was so shocking, out of the blue and so insane I hardly could wrap my head around it. Two long posts I am making. I am playing catch up. gale w you solved the mystery for me why all of sudden Sizzix goes after companies they have been standing in front of at Creativation and CHA for years. It's not like they could not see the display of dies and try to fix these "patent' issues then as an example. Now, it makes a lot more sense that a new management has taken over. It does make you wonder if this management is at all involved in the crafting industry. Nobody in their right mind would do something so crazy if they were in our industry. You know everyone partners with everyone else. They all work together. I am thinking new management must have owned a hardware store or something before buying Sizzix. My head is shaking about all the Misti supporters now supporting Hero Arts. No, you don't get to go there. You had a woman who bullied individuals. She didn't care about age, mental handicaps or circumstances. They continually made excuses for her behavior with the "She's just an individual business woman." You just don't turn around and say "Oh, Sizzix are bullies and we won't support them!" Hello STARS! You were supporting a bully before so your not exonerated now with your sainthood! This "We not longer support Sizzix because they are bullies!" really upsets me. I am talking about the stars that continuously made excuses for Misti owner's behavior. I am glad this is happening to. We now know which stars are genuine and those that are only based on how they want to be perceived as an influencer and their money they make from these companies they support. I have more respect for those who are honest even if I don't agree with their views. I do think our industry has become messy, mean and greedy over the years. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 10:17:39 GMT
Embri I know my post was way back in March about electronic cutters. I read that you are leery about investing in an electronic cutter. I can see why you are leery about a "deluxe paperweight". There are some cutters on the market that are proprietary. There are others that have been around as long as Sizzix or even AccuCut. They are just as frugal as both of those machines. Graphtec has been around since then. So has Roland. There are no proprietary consumables with these machines. Graphtec released their first cutter in 1961. I think they will be around a really long time, lol. Roland has been around for twenty. Crafting industry we have our big players. These two companies do make cutters/plotters for the crafting industry but the majority they cater to are other business industries so you can always find a gorgeous cutter that will work in your art/crafting needs. It doesn't need to be our big players. The Silhouette line is Graphtec. You can use a permanent blade holder with it. I use the CB09 with mine. I bought five blades five years ago and just changed to blade #2 last November. Still have my old blade I am using to cut out glitter paper, etc. My blades cost me 5/$10. You can make cutting mats with plastic cutting boards. I do this all the time. They work amazing. Software- Graphtec machines are the darlings of software. It reads as a native printer plotter so you can cut on any software program of your choice like Inkscape. You can use Linux, Mac, Windows, etc.... The Silhouette Cameo, Curio, Portrait line does need tweaking of all the Graphtec plotters to run natively. It can be done and done well. If you are ever at a thrift store and you see an old Silhouette machine or Wishblade snag it up, run it home and you have a frugal cutter for years and years to come. Those babies are workhorses. The Graphtec cutters are the most frugal cutters of all the cutters on the market. Cricut- Proprietary but consumables are not. The only reason Cricut is proprietary is because of their software. Consumables are Roland blades. That carbide thing they advertise is a media hype. Carbide blades have been used in Roland cutter for years. Now, Cricut calls them fine point blades because some of us called them out on it, lol. There are so many companies making mats now and you can make your own too out of plastic cutting boards. I don't think the Cricut is frugal at all. I wanted to write about consumables in case it helped somebody. ScanNCut- I love my SnC. I love it so much. I hate it's so proprietary. Mats and blades are an expensive consumable. I never would have bought one if I didn't have extensive die cutting knowledge and knew tips and tricks to make those consumables last for years. I do really love that cutter. It's my luxury. I hope that helps. You have a such talent with paper piecing. I always think if you had a frugal e-cutter you would be queen of paper piecing.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 27, 2019 14:58:54 GMT
Hi everyone! Long time no hear. I have been Spring cleaning and doing lots of gardening. I took a break from our favorite sue scaring mongering bullying industry, lol. Life is soooo good. I hope it's great for everyone else. I did miss you. Catching up on this Sizzix debacle. I have to admit this Sizzix one really angered me. Even with the Misti I always said she had a right to protect her legal property. I don't think she's a good person that she bullies. Sizzix was so shocking, out of the blue and so insane I hardly could wrap my head around it. Two long posts I am making. I am playing catch up. gale w you solved the mystery for me why all of sudden Sizzix goes after companies they have been standing in front of at Creativation and CHA for years. It's not like they could not see the display of dies and try to fix these "patent' issues then as an example. Now, it makes a lot more sense that a new management has taken over. It does make you wonder if this management is at all involved in the crafting industry. Nobody in their right mind would do something so crazy if they were in our industry. You know everyone partners with everyone else. They all work together. I am thinking new management must have owned a hardware store or something before buying Sizzix. My head is shaking about all the Misti supporters now supporting Hero Arts. No, you don't get to go there. You had a woman who bullied individuals. She didn't care about age, mental handicaps or circumstances. They continually made excuses for her behavior with the "She's just an individual business woman." You just don't turn around and say "Oh, Sizzix are bullies and we won't support them!" Hello STARS! You were supporting a bully before so your not exonerated now with your sainthood! This "We not longer support Sizzix because they are bullies!" really upsets me. I am talking about the stars that continuously made excuses for Misti owner's behavior. I am glad this is happening to. We now know which stars are genuine and those that are only based on how they want to be perceived as an influencer and their money they make from these companies they support. I have more respect for those who are honest even if I don't agree with their views. I do think our industry has become messy, mean and greedy over the years. It's good to see you posting again, amayalylac! About the new CEO. He is reportedly from Europe, and according to the employee reviews, he also doesn't listen to anyone but his close inner circle of female assistants. I assume they are also European, which suggests he/they do not understand the American market. I don't know what he did before becoming the Sizzix CEO. Not only are they suing several companies, but they have been laying off a lot of long time employees, and demanding far more of those that remain. Employee morale is very low. I think their CEO is completely out of touch with just about everything, and since he doesn't listen to any but his inner circle, he may run Sizzix into a pit, even if they do win the lawsuits. |
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Post by Embri on Apr 27, 2019 18:44:09 GMT
e that helps. You have a such talent with paper piecing. I always think if you had a frugal e-cutter you would be queen of paper piecing. It does! I will be on the lookout for a non-craft branded plotter - it's not likely to land in my lap, but who knows. If you never look, you'll never find. I'm not sure how well it'd integrate with my workflow - when designing something new I'll often cut as I go, making pieces as needed. That's really easy with a manual cutter next to my table, trivial even. While my computer is also adjacent, it'd mean breaking out of flow to fire up some software, design a shape, and get it plotted. All that information is great though, saving it for future reference! Employee morale is very low. I think their CEO is completely out of touch with just about everything, and since he doesn't listen to any but his inner circle, he may run Sizzix into a pit, even if they do win the lawsuits. This really doesn't sound good. Sadly it often happens when a company is ailing, new top-level management is transplanted in with little to no hands on experience with the product. I guess we just have to wait and see. :\ |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 9:23:50 GMT
It's good to see you posting again, amayalylac! About the new CEO. He is reportedly from Europe, and according to the employee reviews, he also doesn't listen to anyone but his close inner circle of female assistants. I assume they are also European, which suggests he/they do not understand the American market. I don't know what he did before becoming the Sizzix CEO. Not only are they suing several companies, but they have been laying off a lot of long time employees, and demanding far more of those that remain. Employee morale is very low. I think their CEO is completely out of touch with just about everything, and since he doesn't listen to any but his inner circle, he may run Sizzix into a pit, even if they do win the lawsuits. That solves a lot of mysteries. I have been wondering why Sizzix is releasing new items to Europe before North America. Europe has the foldable Sizzix first. All the new die releases have been debuted in Europe first. Then it seems to go to South America. Then slowly trickles to us in North America. I have been wondering what has been going on with that. Now, it makes sense.
I have been wondering how long time employees were faring over these lawsuits. I can't be the only one wondering how they were setting back watching their friends, colleagues and partners being sued just out of the blue. You all know there were some "What the" conversations. My heart goes out to the long time employees that are caught in the middle of this or have lost a job that was probably quite secure for them.
I agree with your assessment. I think you are right he's going to run it into the ground. That is just a tragedy for a long time respected company.
I do wonder what is going to happen to steel rule dies if he ruins the company. I know thin rule dies will be around for a long time. Sizzix is the major line for steel rule.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 9:37:24 GMT
It does! I will be on the lookout for a non-craft branded plotter - it's not likely to land in my lap, but who knows. If you never look, you'll never find. I'm not sure how well it'd integrate with my workflow - when designing something new I'll often cut as I go, making pieces as needed. That's really easy with a manual cutter next to my table, trivial even. While my computer is also adjacent, it'd mean breaking out of flow to fire up some software, design a shape, and get it plotted. All that information is great though, saving it for future reference! I do understand. I hate having my flow messed up when I am creating. I tend to do all my computer digi work first and then I have everything ready to create. If I have to stop and start again it makes me grumpy. What is funny the only cutter I ever have that issue with is my Cricut. I don't know why. They are all the same kind of cutters. It just seems the Cricut knows I will mess up a piece and have to cut it again. Like it plots this or something, lol. Now, least I have my iPad so if I mess up a piece I can fix it quickly. Luckily, that hasn't happened in awhile. |
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Post by Embri on Apr 28, 2019 19:20:47 GMT
I do wonder what is going to happen to steel rule dies if he ruins the company. I know thin rule dies will be around for a long time. Sizzix is the major line for steel rule. Another company might step in to fill the gap if that happens, but I sort of doubt it? Steel-rules aren't that popular for paper crafting compared to etched, and the costs are far higher. Compare you can get a similar set of etched for 2-3$ on AliExpress vs. ~15$ for the steel rule version. And they take up more space to store, fewer machines accept them, and they're harder to line up on your paper. The one big advantage is the range and thickness of materials they can cut, but that doesn't seem to be enough to make them competitive vs. etched for most people. |
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Post by cbet on Apr 29, 2019 2:57:44 GMT
I was pondering on this whole lawsuit thing this weekend -I wonder if just maybe, them losing their stampin up connection is behind it. Stampin Up had to be a huge piece of business for them. The consultants alone would account for a fairly sizable amount of sales. And now SU is skipping Sizzix and going straight to their own manufacturer. By suing all these companies, they might be trying to strong-arm SU into paying them a fee to be able to sell the dies with that cutting edge. Especially if SU already has inventory ready for when their new catalog goes live.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 12:30:02 GMT
Another company might step in to fill the gap if that happens, but I sort of doubt it? Steel-rules aren't that popular for paper crafting compared to etched, and the costs are far higher. Compare you can get a similar set of etched for 2-3$ on AliExpress vs. ~15$ for the steel rule version. And they take up more space to store, fewer machines accept them, and they're harder to line up on your paper. The one big advantage is the range and thickness of materials they can cut, but that doesn't seem to be enough to make them competitive vs. etched for most people. In jewelry, textile, quilting steel rule's are still very popular. I know last X-mas I noticed the trend of quilter's asking for the Sizzix BigShot Pro. I remember that so clearly. It really stood out to me since Cricut was heavily promoting the Maker at the time. Sizzix was still winning that market. I have noticed that most textile/quilting/applique groups seem to be relying heavily on Sizzix, Brother ScannCut and then the Maker in that order.
I know the girls/guys who own a BSP are probably really nervous right now wondering about the future of Sizzix. I know all of this Sizzix insanity is hitting both me & my DH hard. My DH uses the BigShot for metal and quilting. I use it for jewelry. For many years the majority of my physical dies were steel rule. I just started getting into thin rule when the knockoffs started hitting the market. They fell in my price range, I could actually try and see if it was something I liked. The main reason I got into thin rule was for doll house miniatures. There are so many great scale items in thin rule.
Steel Rule dies are a major tool for me. Thin rule is a hobby for me. I am pretty nervous about what this new owner is going to run this company. So far, he's not running it very well.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 29, 2019 16:27:32 GMT
I do wonder what is going to happen to steel rule dies if he ruins the company. I know thin rule dies will be around for a long time. Sizzix is the major line for steel rule. Another company might step in to fill the gap if that happens, but I sort of doubt it? Steel-rules aren't that popular for paper crafting compared to etched, and the costs are far higher. Compare you can get a similar set of etched for 2-3$ on AliExpress vs. ~15$ for the steel rule version. And they take up more space to store, fewer machines accept them, and they're harder to line up on your paper. The one big advantage is the range and thickness of materials they can cut, but that doesn't seem to be enough to make them competitive vs. etched for most people. Sizzix is part of (or a break off of) Ellison. Ellison and Accu-Cut (Ellison's big competitor) are the steel rule die kings. I have an Accu-Cut machine and wood mounted steel rule dies from the days before personal craft dies. Quilting has made a come back, but I would still be surprised if any newcomer tries to join the steel rule die market. The big business is (or at least used to be) actually schools, which have used them for years. The LSS market added to their business. Now that so many LSS have closed, and etched dies are so popular, I don't think we'll see any newcomers to the steel rule market. I stopped buying Sizzix steel rule dies long before the Sizzix lawsuit. The thin dies can cut far better detail. It isn't just about the price or the storage space issue. Steel rule dies just can't get the intricate details that the etched dies can. |
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 29, 2019 16:30:23 GMT
I was pondering on this whole lawsuit thing this weekend -I wonder if just maybe, them losing their stampin up connection is behind it. Stampin Up had to be a huge piece of business for them. The consultants alone would account for a fairly sizable amount of sales. And now SU is skipping Sizzix and going straight to their own manufacturer. By suing all these companies, they might be trying to strong-arm SU into paying them a fee to be able to sell the dies with that cutting edge. Especially if SU already has inventory ready for when their new catalog goes live. It's possible that it was a factor, but I think, just based on the timing of everything, that the lawsuits started before Sizzix knew they were losing SU. I could be wrong, though. It is hard to know how long SU has been working on the disconnect from Sizzix. |
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Post by cbet on Apr 29, 2019 17:57:52 GMT
I'm thinking that SU/Sizzix had to have known about this for quite awhile. It takes some time to get those catalogs ready for the printer, and they have to have been working for a while to have inventory ready for when the catalog goes live. But SU sure wasn't going to announce it when they had demos that might be purchasing the dies and embossing folders in the catalog. (Sorry, the demos needing to buy all the new stuff and stop using the retired is a thing that really bugs me about the SU business plan. I feel that the demos are hit really hard everytime they redo their colors or reformulate their inks, because the demos are the ones that need the new things. The rest of us can be perfectly happy with inkpads in the old style or cardstock colors that retired 3 years ago.)
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Post by Embri on Apr 29, 2019 19:18:27 GMT
In jewelry, textile, quilting steel rule's are still very popular. *nodnod* oh definitely, which is why I stuck to the 'for paper crafting' in; quilting, mass production of packaging and schools are very different markets where steel rule has the advantage. They're more durable and can make more cuts before needing to be replaced too if I remember right - but that's not usually an issue for a home crafter who isn't making thousands and thousands of the same thing. The thin dies can cut far better detail. It isn't just about the price or the storage space issue. Steel rule dies just can't get the intricate details that the etched dies can. That's another good point I forgot! There's a limit to the level of detail in steel rule since they have to be able to bend the metal into shape. They also can't emboss or do textures. Sorry, the demos needing to buy all the new stuff and stop using the retired is a thing that really bugs me about the SU business plan. This requirement of SU!'s business is a fragrant pile of horse shit, to be quite frank. They rely heavily on the fear of missing out too. |
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451
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Post by scrapnnana on Apr 29, 2019 23:47:31 GMT
I'm thinking that SU/Sizzix had to have known about this for quite awhile. It takes some time to get those catalogs ready for the printer, and they have to have been working for a while to have inventory ready for when the catalog goes live. But SU sure wasn't going to announce it when they had demos that might be purchasing the dies and embossing folders in the catalog. (Sorry, the demos needing to buy all the new stuff and stop using the retired is a thing that really bugs me about the SU business plan. I feel that the demos are hit really hard everytime they redo their colors or reformulate their inks, because the demos are the ones that need the new things. The rest of us can be perfectly happy with inkpads in the old style or cardstock colors that retired 3 years ago.) That is definitely one reason I never became a rep for any company. You have to use only their products (understandable), but as soon as they discontinue something, you can't use it anymore. (Also understandable, but kind of stinks for the items you love.) What is not so understandable is NOT letting the reps know when items are being discontinued. Customers are more than willing to buy items being clearanced. |
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Post by gale w on Apr 30, 2019 3:20:45 GMT
I'm a hobby demo and I buy almost no stampin up. But yeah, active demos are stuck if they invest in things that retire.
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Deleted
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Nov 25, 2024 9:43:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 12:39:48 GMT
Thanks to all for weighing in on steel rule. I did go to several quilting forums. It seems to me they are going to Accu-Cut. Not because of the lawsuit but because of the quality of the dies. I have a lot to think about. I am so tired of putting my money into companies that are drama filled. It really is stressful and they just take the fun out of it. I was reading about the lawsuits from other sites and I guess it's Ellison suing the five. I thought it was Sizzix. I knew Sizzix is part of Ellison but I thought they went separate years ago around when Cricut first came out. Shows how much I pay attention, lol. Read Prima already settled. The other four are going to fight it. It is such a big mess. I was organizing my supplies tonight. I thought to myself I remember the days of scissors and imagination. There is no drama with scissors. Wait for Fiskars to do something crazy, ROFL. scrapnnana That is how I got into die cutting was Accu-Cut back in the education days. When the teachers needed things for bulletin boards I was the girl they sent to use the machine. I had to take the machine and the dies up some stairs one time. I had to get five of my football player friends to carry that cart up those stairs. I will never forget how heavy those machines were. I will never forget how much I loved them. I would always cut things for me and take them home to make into cute but very large cards, ROFL. |
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Post by cbet on May 1, 2019 13:26:48 GMT
Update here: www.scrapbookupdate.com/2019/05/01/ellison-sizzix-patent-litigation-update/Heartfelt Creations has filed a motion to dismiss; Avery Elle is fighting with guns a'blazing And Ellison/Sizzix now seems to be claiming that they hold a patent to a method to line up the dies with a stamped image, and therefore the patent to make open aperture dies to line up with stamped images. Holy Crap. |
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,451
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Post by scrapnnana on May 1, 2019 14:58:06 GMT
Update here: www.scrapbookupdate.com/2019/05/01/ellison-sizzix-patent-litigation-update/Heartfelt Creations has filed a motion to dismiss; Avery Elle is fighting with guns a'blazing And Ellison/Sizzix now seems to be claiming that they hold a patent to a method to line up the dies with a stamped image, and therefore the patent to make open aperture dies to line up with stamped images. Holy Crap. Seriously? The Heartfelt Creations video that I linked earlier (showing how to line up dies with stamps) was filmed for a TV show and then posted on the HC site BEFORE Sizzix/Ellison even applied for their patent! Internet history will probably be included as evidence, assuming they go to court if the motion to dismiss is refused. The Sizzix/Ellison bluster is not going to make that evidence go away. Sizzix was NOT the first. The technique was online for any and all to see (as well as shown at conventions and in classes), therefore the Sizzix/Ellison patent should be nullified by the courts, and hopefully will be. |
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Post by cbet on May 1, 2019 15:45:43 GMT
Seriously? The Heartfelt Creations video that I linked earlier (showing how to line up dies with stamps) was filmed for a TV show and then posted on the HC site BEFORE Sizzix/Ellison even applied for their patent! Internet history will probably be included as evidence, assuming they go to court if the motion to dismiss is refused. The Sizzix/Ellison bluster is not going to make that evidence go away. Sizzix was NOT the first. The technique was online for any and all to see (as well as shown at conventions and in classes), therefore the Sizzix/Ellison patent should be nullified by the courts, and hopefully will be. That's what the Avery Elle response basically said. Their filing is asking not only for the suit to be dismissed, but that Sizzix/Ellison pay Avery Elles legal fees and the patent nullified |
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Post by gale w on May 1, 2019 16:00:03 GMT
Holy crap. So Ellison is trying to corner the open die market entirely now. What effin' assholes.
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I have been Spring cleaning and doing lots of gardening. I took a break from our favorite sue scaring mongering bullying industry, lol. Life is soooo good. I hope it's great for everyone else. I did miss you.