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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 22, 2019 0:17:47 GMT
Well the good news is I have 40+ years of experience in people assuming they know my racial/ethnic heritage. Knock yourself out on your thorough understanding as a white woman on others experiences. Life isn't nearly as cut and dried as you'd like to believe - but read a few more books to make you think you understand. You know, you are right. I do not know you or your lived experience. So, I am sorry if it sounded like I did. It wasn’t my intention (but I realize impact is more important than my intention). So, I apologize for making assumptions about you and your racial frame. I will keep reading books, though. And listening. I understand that you probably don’t want to share much here, as it’s not exactly the safest place to do so. However, the woman in the video is clearly experiencing this as a racial incident, and I find it disturbing that folks seem to be trying to explain that away with semantics. I hope you can understand what I mean.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jul 22, 2019 1:19:20 GMT
My reality SockMonkey and and I have no doubt your reality will be different and if you take 50 others THEIR reality will be different. The woman in the video is a freaking IDIOT. There's no conceivable way to understand or justify her drunken idiocy. And I truly do not think anyone on this thread is trying to do that - there has been some discussion about the role of race - which is wholly different than justifying her behavior I have no issue whatsoever accepting and understanding that she's a MORON and even that she's a RACIST without also understanding that others may not see this as a racial incident. One of the huge issues "I" see that I'm sure others who have never been mistaken as any other ethnic group is that people perceive incidents in their own framework. So when someone expresses confusion about something being racist there's this desire to say they're freaking idiots without actually listing to what they're saying. And this is an actual great example. I totally and completely understand why someone who sees the video in isolation wonders why it's about racism when they look at the video and don't see anyone who is a "person of color". And I'll also be honest that the more people insist the child in the video is "obviously" biracial the more I believe they need to get the hell out of their utterly white bread existence- as in all honesty you can pop that boy in any major city and you wouldn't jump to "black". I have a dozen cousins of all different backgrounds who look "darker' than him and its frankly offensive that we're debating this in the context that he's not fair and thus we should assume it's a racist incident. Now that also DOESN'T mean that this woman isn't a racist bitch who knew her neighbor was black and got drunk and stupid. I just see no issue having a discussion with someone and trying to understand where they're coming from and discussing issues they might not have considered when they look at the video and express confusion as the parties aren't black and others are insisting that obviously they're black and she's racist. No one thinks that the woman in the video was right or justified.
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katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,447
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Jul 22, 2019 1:22:24 GMT
Then what exactly do you think you’re doing. I’d love to know. Trying to explain that, in this specific situation, in the area in question, the word "ghetto" doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. The connotation is different. Still shitty, but different. Using the word ghetto to refer to anything “less than” is inherently racist.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 22, 2019 1:25:15 GMT
My reality SockMonkey and and I have no doubt your reality will be different and if you take 50 others THEIR reality will be different. The woman in the video is a freaking IDIOT. There's no conceivable way to understand or justify her drunken idiocy. And I truly do not think anyone on this thread is trying to do that - there has been some discussion about the role of race - which is wholly different than justifying her behavior I have no issue whatsoever accepting and understanding that she's a MORON and even that she's a RACIST without also understanding that others may not see this as a racial incident. One of the huge issues "I" see that I'm sure others who have never been mistaken as any other ethnic group is that people perceive incidents in their own framework. So when someone expresses confusion about something being racist there's this desire to say they're freaking idiots without actually listing to what they're saying. And this is an actual great example. I totally and completely understand why someone who sees the video in isolation wonders why it's about racism when they look at the video and don't see anyone who is a "person of color". And I'll also be honest that the more people insist the child in the video is "obviously" biracial the more I believe they need to get the hell out of their utterly white bread existence- as in all honesty you can pop that boy in any major city and you wouldn't jump to "black". I have a dozen cousins of all different backgrounds who look "darker' than him and its frankly offensive that we're debating this in the context that he's not fair and thus we should assume it's a racist incident. Now that also DOESN'T mean that this woman isn't a racist bitch who knew her neighbor was black and got drunk and stupid. I just see no issue having a discussion with someone and trying to understand where they're coming from and discussing issues they might not have considered when they look at the video and express confusion as the parties aren't black and others are insisting that obviously they're black and she's racist. No one thinks that the woman in the video was right or justified. Thank you for elaborating. I agree that we shouldn’t make assumptions about the racial identity of the folks in the video, and I understand where you’re coming from. I appreciate that you came back to explain to me, and I probably needed to extend more grace to those who were trying to understand.
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 22, 2019 1:31:25 GMT
Jesus, Mary and Joseph. In the video, there was NO PERSON OF COLOR. Why is no one understanding this? Try this—- Close your eyes and hear only the woman’s words... “Go back to the ghetto” “Gang activity” Now tell us that she isn’t being racist/xenophobic. isn't is also racist to think that race is involved when hearing those words? I didn't watch the video, but I assumed the woman being yelled at was black and the woman yelling was white. That seems shitty too.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jul 22, 2019 1:38:54 GMT
Trying to explain that, in this specific situation, in the area in question, the word "ghetto" doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. The connotation is different. Still shitty, but different. Using the word ghetto to refer to anything “less than” is inherently racist. This. I've read the whole thread and this is what it comes down to. Ghetto is in and of itself racist. It is offensive. I cannot imagine even attempting to use the word in a way that isn't construed as a put down.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 22, 2019 2:12:58 GMT
My reality SockMonkey and and I have no doubt your reality will be different and if you take 50 others THEIR reality will be different. The woman in the video is a freaking IDIOT. There's no conceivable way to understand or justify her drunken idiocy. And I truly do not think anyone on this thread is trying to do that - there has been some discussion about the role of race - which is wholly different than justifying her behavior I have no issue whatsoever accepting and understanding that she's a MORON and even that she's a RACIST without also understanding that others may not see this as a racial incident. One of the huge issues "I" see that I'm sure others who have never been mistaken as any other ethnic group is that people perceive incidents in their own framework. So when someone expresses confusion about something being racist there's this desire to say they're freaking idiots without actually listing to what they're saying. And this is an actual great example. I totally and completely understand why someone who sees the video in isolation wonders why it's about racism when they look at the video and don't see anyone who is a "person of color". And I'll also be honest that the more people insist the child in the video is "obviously" biracial the more I believe they need to get the hell out of their utterly white bread existence- as in all honesty you can pop that boy in any major city and you wouldn't jump to "black". I have a dozen cousins of all different backgrounds who look "darker' than him and its frankly offensive that we're debating this in the context that he's not fair and thus we should assume it's a racist incident. Now that also DOESN'T mean that this woman isn't a racist bitch who knew her neighbor was black and got drunk and stupid. I just see no issue having a discussion with someone and trying to understand where they're coming from and discussing issues they might not have considered when they look at the video and express confusion as the parties aren't black and others are insisting that obviously they're black and she's racist. No one thinks that the woman in the video was right or justified. Going by the video, I could not identify the victims as any specific ethnicity. When I described them as black, I was going by the linked article that said they were black, and the TV reporter who described it as a racial incident. She at least was local, and I have more faith in her than in the article from what is probably only a semi-reliable news site. I also think accusations of “gang activity” and orders to “go back to the ghetto” bring race into the equation right on the face of it. If kibblesandbits’s neighbors don’t understand that, they need to learn it and fast. Or deal with the rest of the world believing they are racists. I don’t think we need to be arguing ad infinitum about whether or not the kid in the video looked mixed-race. At least, that is not the issue to me, but rather the recorded and reported behavior of the neighbor.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Jul 22, 2019 2:31:40 GMT
Why would the word “ghetto” even connote socioeconomics and not racism in this specific instance? The children’s father lives in the neighborhood, across the street from Tammy Postma. Patricia Elena clearly said she was dropping off her kids there. Presumably, if Tammy can afford to live in a “wealthy community,” then the father would, too, wouldn't you say? Tammy is dressed in shorts and T-shirt, and Patricia is dressed in shorts and a blouse. The boy is dressed in shorts and a T-shirt. If this is about a “cultural microcosm” where the wealthy look down on the poor, where are the poor people in this video?
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 22, 2019 3:08:55 GMT
Try this—- Close your eyes and hear only the woman’s words... “Go back to the ghetto” “Gang activity” Now tell us that she isn’t being racist/xenophobic. isn't is also racist to think that race is involved when hearing those words? I didn't watch the video, but I assumed the woman being yelled at was black and the woman yelling was white. That seems shitty too. In context, probably not. But what you note is what I am getting at. Because history has always caused one to believe that the "ghetto" and "gang activity" and the words "go back where you came from/belong" have always been tied to a "lesser human being" disadvantaged, poor, POC, or Mexican/Hispanic/Latino/Muslim, etc. it really is a stretch to really think that they mean anything other than the first definition of ghetto. Ghetto has always meant "segregation" whether a minority race, ethnic background (the term ghetto actually was meant to designate a section of town where Jews could live affluent or not), in many countries it designated impoverished areas (people who were "less than" ) and the Nazi's made up ghetto's to hold Jews. It IS a damn shame that one would assume, if only to hear the words that the offensive woman was screaming at someone she did not even know, that the person is a POC or other ethnic background. I posted, up thread, the "definition" of ghetto as well as one additional "urban" (insult) meaning. It's only really been recent history that {white} people have been referring to ghetto as an insult towards themselves/friends "I look so ghetto" "their house is so ghetto" The fact is that using the term ghetto is absolutely derogatory and was clearly meant as an insult, a slur, and to let the woman dropping off her kids know that the white woman thought her to be "lesser than".
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 22, 2019 3:14:59 GMT
isn't is also racist to think that race is involved when hearing those words? I didn't watch the video, but I assumed the woman being yelled at was black and the woman yelling was white. That seems shitty too. In context, probably not. But what you note is what I am getting at. Because history has always caused one to believe that the "ghetto" and "gang activity" and the words "go back where you came from/belong" have always been tied to a "lesser human being" disadvantaged, poor, POC, or Mexican/Hispanic/Latino/Muslim, etc. it really is a stretch to really think that they mean anything other than the first definition of ghetto. It IS a damn shame that one would assume, if only to hear the words that the offensive woman was screaming at someone she did not even know, that the person is a POC or other ethnic background. I posted, up thread, the "definition" of ghetto as well as one additional "urban" (insult) meaning. It's only really been recent history that {white} people have been referring to ghetto as an insult towards themselves/friends "I look so ghetto" "their house is so ghetto" The fact is that using the term ghetto is absolutely derogatory and was clearly meant as an insult, a slur, and to let the woman dropping off her kids know that the white woman thought her to be "lesser than". I agree. I just think it also sucks that most of immediately think of a POC when hearing those words. It makes me sad.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Jul 22, 2019 4:54:39 GMT
Because in the area in question the predominant heritage is Dutch. There's a look, especially here. Blond, taller, thin nose, etc. *sprout* great description, and what I was trying to get to earlier. "Ghetto" has many connotations, depending on the area. Oh God. That’s a yikes from me. You could identify the people who belong in the ghetto because they are not tall and blond, and maybe they got a big nose? You might want to read a Wikipedia article about the Jewish ghettos and think about why this is a jaw droppingly terrible line of thinking. That was actually my first experience with the word ghetto - studying the Warsaw ghetto. So I’ll concede that use of the word ghetto doesn’t always have to be racially motivated - but by definition they have the outcome of being a place where already marginalized and undesirable people are effectively shunned together by society, and as such *any* use of it is insensitive and rude. The fact it was said about black children and they way it was said is what tips the hand to racially motivated usage for me, in this case.
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