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Post by flanz on Oct 23, 2019 22:43:26 GMT
Remember the objective of posting was to honor Virginia’s memory and her request to “persist” and to also inspire other peas. Bears repeating just in case that gets lost in all the side discussion
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Post by flanz on Oct 23, 2019 22:44:43 GMT
Precisely as it reads. What part are you having trouble with? “I have no desire to change your mind about what your responsibilities are as white women” Translation: If you want to argue about how all humankind needs to get involved. I have no desire to change your mind about that. “Stay where you are” Translation: Remain seated. Or stay away from me and my efforts. “No engagement from me required” Translation: I don’t plan to argue with you One thing that makes it really hard when discussing through only written words is not being able to discern tone. Words might be intended to be read with no judgment or snark or attitude and sometimes they may be judgmental, critical or snarky. The words may be read with a perceived attitude, and that may or may not be accurate. I've found that I sometimes have a hard time knowing how words are intended when I don’t have a relationship with someone or can’t see and hear them speak, especially when on sensitive subjects or when answers seem rather cryptic or the follow up is confusing. There have been several posts on this thread, from different people, that have left me wondering about tone and intent. Makes me cautious about posting anything more because I may be way off in my perception of the intent. I read somewhere long ago that the words themselves are 15% of the message, with tone of voice, body language supplying so much more.
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Post by flanz on Oct 23, 2019 22:45:59 GMT
I am sitting next to Busy and SockMonkey. The post and questions asked of Olan do make me uncomfortable. While women in general have been 'fighting' for equality, white women have rarely realized and acted upon the fact that we do have more that women of color. When someone stops to point out how much privilege a white woman has, it's uncomfortable and purposely so. It's the time where you sit and think and realize that women of color have been fighting for while women a long time. And it's now time to take a step back and fight for those women of color. The best ever advice I've read is this: follow 50 POC on social media for 5 years. Never ask then to educate you, that's not their job. Never comment YOUR feelings, because it's about them, not you. At the end of the 5 years, you may have a glimmer of what it's like to be a POC in today's world. It's hard not to comment or not to ask what they mean or how they got to that point, but I have learned so VERY much by researching what they post about. AMEN!!!
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 23, 2019 22:50:57 GMT
Remember the objective of posting was to honor Virginia’s memory and her request to “persist” and to also inspire other peas. Bears repeating just in case that gets lost in all the side discussion That may be the objective of the Call to Action thread honoring Virginia, however you have started this thread to shame/ingratiate/cause discomfort to white women for not doing enough or to your satisfaction, as evidenced by your initial post, as well as a few subsequent others. And to pretend its something else is disingenuous and dishonest. You want to revive the Call to Action Thread honoring Virginia’s memory? —try building up community instead of tearing people down like you did in your very first post, and then you wouldn’t have to play a pernicious innocent later on in the thread. You made this thread about race and you’re walking back trying to make it sound like you were all about the CTA. Build community around her legacy and it don’t tear it apart. Educate and stop mocking people for their actions and/or comments and/or questions. Stepping outside one’s comfort zone to support causes, issues, activism, LBGTQ, black women, white women, whatever it may be—can be deeply personal and sometimes private, and shouldn’t have to have a need to be celebrated as some sort of heroic act or proof that your doing something (then be told it’s inadequate/not enough/falls short of someone else’s expectations). Some people may not know what to do and when they ask and it’s met with “it’s not my responsibility to educate...”. Which is a perfect example of a missed opportunity to share and educate. Not all white women use their privilege negatively, adversely, or ignore it. Many are allies, supporters, educators. Many do what the are capable of doing (and are still criticized for it not being enough). AKathy’s thread is about food. Virginia’s thread is about more complex, heart tugging, hard, uncomfortable and sometimes volatile issues. Apples to oranges comparison. To say it’s anything else is inaccurate. The only commonality is that both threads were created in the memory of a pea who has passed.
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Post by flanz on Oct 23, 2019 22:54:57 GMT
Pro Tip for White Women: If a person of color describes white people a certain way or as doing something problematic and that does not describe YOU PERSONALLY, there is no need to jump in with a "not all white women" or a "it's not about race" comment. It's meaningless and unhelpful and just serves to center us in a conversation, and typically we are already centered plenty. This. I'm sorry Olan I'm mad and I'm frustrated and I'm just flat out disappointed in the current state of affairs. I 100% agree with you that equality doesn't exist. And I knew it didn't, I just didn't see it quite the way I see things now. A friend of mine set me straight today. I told her I'm mad. Mad about what this America looks like. Mad about what people are getting away with in this day and age. I thought we were better than this. And she said to me, you're just seeing what we've seen all along. And that's the fact of it, isn't it? I can sit here in my blended lower middle class urban neighborhood and it looks like in my life we live in harmony. Nobody hurting anyone. Nobody thinking they are better than anyone. But maybe that's my insulation. And I'm sorry for that. My friend set me straight. Bolded by me: I moved to the U.S. in 1988, naively and absurdly believing that the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s had largely "fixed" the problems of race in the country. I hang my head in shame that I was so dumb... but I didn't know what I didn't know! Then came 2012 and Trayvon Martin. My eyes were forced open. My awakening had begun! 2014. Eric Garner. Michael Brown. Both killed by police. There was no justice. I attended rallies and vigils and listened while PoC spoke of their outrage, their fear for their safety and that of their loved ones. I was beginning to understand their anger. I saw video after video of LEOs killing black people running away from them, driving while black and ending up dead, you name it. Due to technology and video cameras in most people's pockets, I realized that I WAS JUST BECOMING AWARE of what black people have known all along. The injustices that had been happening to their friends and family members since this country began. I could no longer ignore what I now knew.
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Deleted
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Nov 22, 2024 14:40:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 22:57:44 GMT
Remember the objective of posting was to honor Virginia’s memory and her request to “persist” and to also inspire other peas. Bears repeating just in case that gets lost in all the side discussion That may be the objective of the Call to Action thread honoring Virginia, however you have started this thread to shame/ingratiate/cause discomfort to white women for not doing enough or to your satisfaction, as evidenced by your initial post, as well as a few subsequent others. And to pretend its something else is disingenuous and dishonest. You want to revive the Call to Action Thread honoring Virginia’s memory? —try building up community instead of tearing people down like you did in your very first post, and then you wouldn’t have to play a pernicious innocent later on in the thread. You made this thread about race and you’re walking back trying to make it sound like you were all about the CTA. Build community around her legacy and it don’t tear it apart. Educate and stop mocking people for their actions and/or comments and/or questions. Stepping outside one’s comfort zone to support causes, issues, activism, LBGTQ, black women, white women, whatever it may be—can be deeply personal and sometimes private, and shouldn’t have to have a need to be celebrated as some sort of heroic act or proof that your doing something (then be told it’s inadequate/not enough/falls short of someone else’s expectations). Some people may not know what to do and when they ask and it’s met with “it’s not my responsibility to educate...”. Which is a perfect example of a missed opportunity to share and educate. Not all white women use their privilege negatively, adversely, or ignore it. Many are allies, supporters, educators. Many do what the are capable of doing (and are still criticized for it not being enough). AKathy’s thread is about food. Virginia’s thread is about more complex, heart tugging, hard, uncomfortable and sometimes volatile issues. Apples to oranges comparison. To say it’s anything else is inaccurate. The only commonality is that both threads were created in the memory of a pea who has passed. I’ve been thinking about this thread on and off today and wanted to say something but didn’t know how to say what I wanted to say. This is it. Nicely done.
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Post by *KAS* on Oct 23, 2019 22:59:10 GMT
But what are we talking about in this thread? I thought the thread was about social justice and political action and being involved.. isn't that what the original thread dedicated to Compwalla was all about? I think those things are for everyone to be aware of and involved in. Not just white women. Of course systemic racism is part of all that, and yes white people (not just white women) need to educate themselves. But... as I said, I wasn't aware that this was the only point of the original Compwalla thread. This doesn’t have to be about woke or asleep or black or white. Simply community involvement would be enough. I’m sure this idea isn’t lost on you guys. You march or donate for anything else you feel passionate about so the issues you choose to ignore says a lot about what you what the world to look like. It’s going to be a whole notha decade in a couple months!!! School shooting after school shooting, mass shooting after mass shooting, incel, kids in cages, climate change, opioid epidemic (direct result of racism btw) a whole shit ton of causes to flex your social responsibility yet you find yourself here coming up with every reason why posting on the Call to Action thread is just beneath you. I don’t get it But YOU made it about race by specifically calling out white women in the OP of this thread. That's why you're getting the side bar conversations that don't fit the meaning of this thread. Nobody is saying anything is "beneath" us. Don't be obtuse. Some of us are saying that we don't post here IN GENERAL, not just on this tread. I don't post my meals or even read that thread for ideas. It's not personal, it's just not a place I spend much time these days. Different priorities in life. I didn't even know the thread existed until I saw this on page 1 today. I don't mean this in an ugly way, honestly, but I don't really care what anybody on this board thinks about what I do with regards to my 'social responsibility.' Would I read about what others do and maybe get some ideas? Sure. I actually signed up with my local child advocacy group because of something I read on this board. It was something I didn't know existed until I read about it here. I like learning here. But if I actually did something really cool that I was proud of, and wanted to share, I would share with my real life friends. Maybe here if I was reading something and it was relevant to the conversation. Otherwise, posting about it here honestly just wouldn't cross my mind. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Posts: 4,053
Jul 13, 2014 21:23:27 GMT
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Post by Olan on Oct 23, 2019 23:36:33 GMT
Great. I appreciate everyone weighing in.
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Post by SockMonkey on Oct 24, 2019 0:23:03 GMT
Truth is I'm kind of scared to post about any of it for fear of getting spanked about it. Last week twice a meme on Facebook appeared about Muslims. And I called it out for both the posters. Is that enough? I am constantly posting things on my Facebook about how fucked up this adminstration is but is that enough? If I read books and raise children who are color blind, is that enough? If I stand outside my church on Sunday with a bunch of other white people holding up protest signs for black lives matter, is that enough? Am I still going to be beat down because I'm not doing enough to further the cause? As Linda said we don't all start at the same place. We don't all have the same opportunity. Many of us try where we can but I feel kind of spanked here in this thread and of course it turns me off posting about the small things I do. I love you to bits, jeremysgirl , I really do. Please read up on microaggressions and colorblindness in particular. It was once a goal of mine but I've learned that it serves to negate the lived reality of people of color and is like a slap in the face. White folks have a lot of unlearning to do, and that includes being intentionally anti-racist. Eliminating terms like "color blindness" from our vocabulary and examining why they're problematic is really important. I, too, once thought of this as a "good" attitude to have about race; I thought that by "not seeing color" that I was seeing people as equals. However, I didn't realize the erasure that occurs when a term like that is used or an attitude like that is embraced. And, when we know better, we can do better. Here's a good quick read: everydayfeminism.com/2015/02/colorblindness-adds-to-racism/
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Post by SockMonkey on Oct 24, 2019 0:31:18 GMT
Remember the objective of posting was to honor Virginia’s memory and her request to “persist” and to also inspire other peas. Bears repeating just in case that gets lost in all the side discussion That may be the objective of the Call to Action thread honoring Virginia, however you have started this thread to shame/ingratiate/cause discomfort to white women for not doing enough or to your satisfaction, as evidenced by your initial post, as well as a few subsequent others. And to pretend its something else is disingenuous and dishonest. You want to revive the Call to Action Thread honoring Virginia’s memory? —try building up community instead of tearing people down like you did in your very first post, and then you wouldn’t have to play a pernicious innocent later on in the thread. You made this thread about race and you’re walking back trying to make it sound like you were all about the CTA. Build community around her legacy and it don’t tear it apart. Educate and stop mocking people for their actions and/or comments and/or questions. Stepping outside one’s comfort zone to support causes, issues, activism, LBGTQ, black women, white women, whatever it may be—can be deeply personal and sometimes private, and shouldn’t have to have a need to be celebrated as some sort of heroic act or proof that your doing something (then be told it’s inadequate/not enough/falls short of someone else’s expectations). Some people may not know what to do and when they ask and it’s met with “it’s not my responsibility to educate...”. Which is a perfect example of a missed opportunity to share and educate. Not all white women use their privilege negatively, adversely, or ignore it. Many are allies, supporters, educators. Many do what the are capable of doing (and are still criticized for it not being enough). AKathy’s thread is about food. Virginia’s thread is about more complex, heart tugging, hard, uncomfortable and sometimes volatile issues. Apples to oranges comparison. To say it’s anything else is inaccurate. The only commonality is that both threads were created in the memory of a pea who has passed. I think it's important to remember that tone policing is a microaggression that is very real. People on this board tend to read into Olan's tone in an interesting way. Other folks on this board seem to get a pass for much harsher rhetoric. There's some reflecting to do on that. It's okay to make things about race sometimes. When we consider that the majority of white women voted for Trump in 2016 while 94% of Black women and 69% of Latinas voted for Hillary, and we are talking about civic and political action, race certainly comes into play. It is not a bad or taboo thing to acknowledge the role that whiteness plays in our lives as white people. It is actually anti-racist to do that kind of introspective work. Please don't "not all white women." It's not helpful. If it doesn't apply to you, keep it moving. While the two types of threads are arguably different, Olan's commentary is one that is worth examining and instead of reacting, what if we reflected? What if we responded with, "You know, I could share more about the things I do to help my community," or perhaps, "I hope you do not feel isolated and alone in your political action; I've been working on..." What if THAT was the response instead?
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Post by *KAS* on Oct 24, 2019 1:41:01 GMT
SockMonkey I have no issues talking about race. I’ve never been one to claim I don’t ‘see color.’ I’ve dated several black men over the years, which was pretty eye opening. I would consider most of them friends to this day, clear back to my high school sweetheart, nearly 25 years ago. Definitely saw differences in how we were raised and the privileged life I led, as opposed to my boyfriend who lived in subsidized housing. It was also interesting to go through a time when he was getting recruited for D1 colleges in football and how those (‘mostly white) college coaches approached him and his family and me. Continued to be interesting after college after he made it to the NFL and would call me with questions that he was too embarrassed to ask guys on the team with regards to etiquette and appropriate dress. I’d argue most of that was more because of his economic upbringing than his race, but it still was an educational time that’s always stuck with me. It’s one reason that I’ve almost always sided with college athletes when it comes to ‘should they be paid’ and have a lot more sympathy than most when some of them make really boneheaded decisions that get them in some trouble. I have a different perspective than most people of my race/sex/income level. I think the issue is that she specifically called out white women to ask what they are doing in this area. It automatically puts some people on the defensive. I’d guess (totally unscientific) that 90%+ of the people here are white, so naturally the answers would have primarily come from white women. But calling them out by race, then backtracking from it, just feels incredibly disingenuous to me.
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Post by flanz on Oct 24, 2019 2:02:07 GMT
SockMonkey I have no issues talking about race. I’ve never been one to claim I don’t ‘see color.’ I’ve dated several black men over the years, which was pretty eye opening. I would consider most of them friends to this day, clear back to my high school sweetheart, nearly 25 years ago. Definitely saw differences in how we were raised and the privileged life I led, as opposed to my boyfriend who lived in subsidized housing. It was also interesting to go through a time when he was getting recruited for D1 colleges in football and how those (‘mostly white) college coaches approached him and his family and me. Continued to be interesting after college after he made it to the NFL and would call me with questions that he was too embarrassed to ask guys on the team with regards to etiquette and appropriate dress. I’d argue most of that was more because of his economic upbringing than his race, but it still was an educational time that’s always stuck with me. It’s one reason that I’ve almost always sided with college athletes when it comes to ‘should they be paid’ and have a lot more sympathy than most when some of them make really boneheaded decisions that get them in some trouble. I have a different perspective than most people of my race/sex/income level. I think the issue is that she specifically called out white women to ask what they are doing in this area. It automatically puts some people on the defensive. I’d guess (totally unscientific) that 90%+ of the people here are white, so naturally the answers would have primarily come from white women. But calling them out by race, then backtracking from it, just feels incredibly disingenuous to me. Thanks for sharing your background @*KAS*. I strongly disagree with your words which I have bolded. It's not enough for those of us born with white privilege to not behave in racist ways. We need to be actively anti-racist. As a white woman, I appreciate Olan's call to action. We (general we) white people don't "get" to be fragile about this. Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility is a good read on the subject.
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Post by SockMonkey on Oct 24, 2019 2:04:45 GMT
SockMonkey I have no issues talking about race. I’ve never been one to claim I don’t ‘see color.’ I’ve dated several black men over the years, which was pretty eye opening. I would consider most of them friends to this day, clear back to my high school sweetheart, nearly 25 years ago. Definitely saw differences in how we were raised and the privileged life I led, as opposed to my boyfriend who lived in subsidized housing. It was also interesting to go through a time when he was getting recruited for D1 colleges in football and how those (‘mostly white) college coaches approached him and his family and me. Continued to be interesting after college after he made it to the NFL and would call me with questions that he was too embarrassed to ask guys on the team with regards to etiquette and appropriate dress. I’d argue most of that was more because of his economic upbringing than his race, but it still was an educational time that’s always stuck with me. It’s one reason that I’ve almost always sided with college athletes when it comes to ‘should they be paid’ and have a lot more sympathy than most when some of them make really boneheaded decisions that get them in some trouble. I have a different perspective than most people of my race/sex/income level. I think the issue is that she specifically called out white women to ask what they are doing in this area. It automatically puts some people on the defensive. I’d guess (totally unscientific) that 90%+ of the people here are white, so naturally the answers would have primarily come from white women. But calling them out by race, then backtracking from it, just feels incredibly disingenuous to me. Thank you for speaking from your experience. May I share that sharing that you have Black friends or have dated Black men confused me? It is my understanding based on my learning that having dated people of color or having friends who are people of color does not mean white people never experience white fragility, say or do racist things.
Yes, Olan specifically called out white women. (See my stats in a post above about what that is relevant.) Yes, it put white people here on the defensive. However, I’m offering that instead of white women then becoming angry or frustrated with Olan, instead examining that defensiveness. Why might we feel defensive? How much have we considered a perspective other than our own?
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 24, 2019 2:19:23 GMT
That may be the objective of the Call to Action thread honoring Virginia, however you have started this thread to shame/ingratiate/cause discomfort to white women for not doing enough or to your satisfaction, as evidenced by your initial post, as well as a few subsequent others. And to pretend its something else is disingenuous and dishonest. You want to revive the Call to Action Thread honoring Virginia’s memory? —try building up community instead of tearing people down like you did in your very first post, and then you wouldn’t have to play a pernicious innocent later on in the thread. You made this thread about race and you’re walking back trying to make it sound like you were all about the CTA. Build community around her legacy and it don’t tear it apart. Educate and stop mocking people for their actions and/or comments and/or questions. Stepping outside one’s comfort zone to support causes, issues, activism, LBGTQ, black women, white women, whatever it may be—can be deeply personal and sometimes private, and shouldn’t have to have a need to be celebrated as some sort of heroic act or proof that your doing something (then be told it’s inadequate/not enough/falls short of someone else’s expectations). Some people may not know what to do and when they ask and it’s met with “it’s not my responsibility to educate...”. Which is a perfect example of a missed opportunity to share and educate. Not all white women use their privilege negatively, adversely, or ignore it. Many are allies, supporters, educators. Many do what the are capable of doing (and are still criticized for it not being enough). AKathy’s thread is about food. Virginia’s thread is about more complex, heart tugging, hard, uncomfortable and sometimes volatile issues. Apples to oranges comparison. To say it’s anything else is inaccurate. The only commonality is that both threads were created in the memory of a pea who has passed. I think it's important to remember that tone policing is a microaggression that is very real. People on this board tend to read into Olan's tone in an interesting way. Other folks on this board seem to get a pass for much harsher rhetoric. There's some reflecting to do on that. It's okay to make things about race sometimes. When we consider that the majority of white women voted for Trump in 2016 while 94% of Black women and 69% of Latinas voted for Hillary, and we are talking about civic and political action, race certainly comes into play. It is not a bad or taboo thing to acknowledge the role that whiteness plays in our lives as white people. It is actually anti-racist to do that kind of introspective work. Please don't "not all white women." It's not helpful. If it doesn't apply to you, keep it moving. While the two types of threads are arguably different, Olan's commentary is one that is worth examining and instead of reacting, what if we reflected? What if we responded with, "You know, I could share more about the things I do to help my community," or perhaps, "I hope you do not feel isolated and alone in your political action; I've been working on..." What if THAT was the response instead? I spoke to what Olan was "feigning" purpose to this thread. She walked back from her OP and was attempting to say that this is what the thread/her OP question was all about. But it wasn't. I have learned over the years that Olan is not really looking for a decent, mature, constructive, or even educating discussion when she starts in on the white woman privileged monolouge. She prefers to immediately go on the attack of white women, and there are many threads revealing that intent. Under the guise of trying to enlighten or encourage activism, she is always chipping away at the morale of those whom she deems don't do enough (white women). Her tone is crystal clear. It is to create the most discomfort, to degenerate, to hurt and injure. I can imagine why. It's not her job to make white women feel better about themselves as to what they do or don't do. Her tone--and most specifically the finite words and phrases that she choses to use--all mean to shame, put down, make uncomfortable...yet a few say it is not her job to educate. While I know that you are also of the school of "it's not a black woman's job to educate..." What if she did? How do you think the discussion would go? How do you think that others would receive that? Do you not think that other peas would reflect on her words better? I am not afraid of anyone telling me that I am a privileged white woman. I know it. I do the work to be educated and enlightened and to help to resolve, heal, correct the injustices. I just don't feel the need to post what it is that I do, to tout that I do it---it is not extraordinary, or heroic, it is not something to be celebrated, get a pat on the back, etc. And if I fail or fall short, I get up and start again the next day. And please, you do not need to lecture about "not all white women". It happens to be true what I said--and there are a few on this board that I would absolutely include. White women who are speaking out against injustices, walking the walk, talking the talk, taking on social issues that they may have never taken on before or getting educated and being "woke" need to be recognized as allies in the fight to correct, heal, resolve injustices. What if women (of all ethnicity) could group and work together? Don't you think that would be a better plan with a better outcome than immediately telling them that their work does not matter or is not enough? Isn't that what this thread is supposed to be about? wink, wink... I get that white women are privileged--and many know it, and many actually do something about it, but it does no good to degenerate them, tell them that it is not helpful. (and also is part of why some may not post anything to these types of threads--they really want to know what would matter the most or to do, but at the same time do not want to be beat down out of the gate.)
I can certainly acknowledge that Olan has posted threads in the past, be it an article, essay, writing, news link, etc. that actually are helpful and educating and absolutely could generate thoughtful, respectful discussion. This thread is not one of those. She came in swinging about the lack of white woman activism, slung words meant as insults ("stay where you are") and then deeper into the thread walked it back--Her OP and subsequent posts show that right quick. None of what she is posting here is "honoring Virginia's memory and her request to persist".
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Post by SockMonkey on Oct 24, 2019 2:36:43 GMT
I think it's important to remember that tone policing is a microaggression that is very real. People on this board tend to read into Olan's tone in an interesting way. Other folks on this board seem to get a pass for much harsher rhetoric. There's some reflecting to do on that. It's okay to make things about race sometimes. When we consider that the majority of white women voted for Trump in 2016 while 94% of Black women and 69% of Latinas voted for Hillary, and we are talking about civic and political action, race certainly comes into play. It is not a bad or taboo thing to acknowledge the role that whiteness plays in our lives as white people. It is actually anti-racist to do that kind of introspective work. Please don't "not all white women." It's not helpful. If it doesn't apply to you, keep it moving. While the two types of threads are arguably different, Olan's commentary is one that is worth examining and instead of reacting, what if we reflected? What if we responded with, "You know, I could share more about the things I do to help my community," or perhaps, "I hope you do not feel isolated and alone in your political action; I've been working on..." What if THAT was the response instead? I spoke to what Olan was "feigning" purpose to this thread. She walked back from her OP and was attempting to say that this is what the thread/her OP question was all about. But it wasn't. I have learned over the years that Olan is not really looking for a decent, mature, constructive, or even educating discussion when she starts in on the white woman privileged monolouge. She prefers to immediately go on the attack of white women, and there are many threads revealing that intent. Under the guise of trying to enlighten or encourage activism, she is always chipping away at the morale of those whom she deems don't do enough (white women). Her tone is crystal clear. It is to create the most discomfort, to degenerate, to hurt and injure. I can imagine why. It's not her job to make white women feel better about themselves as to what they do or don't do. Her tone--and most specifically the finite words and phrases that she choses to use--all mean to shame, put down, make uncomfortable...yet a few say it is not her job to educate. While I know that you are also of the school of "it's not a black woman's job to educate..." What if she did? How do you think the discussion would go? How do you think that others would receive that? Do you not think that other peas would reflect on her words better? I am not afraid of anyone telling me that I am a privileged white woman. I know it. I do the work to be educated and enlightened and to help to resolve, heal, correct the injustices. I just don't feel the need to post what it is that I do, to tout that I do it---it is not extraordinary, or heroic, it is not something to be celebrated, get a pat on the back, etc. And if I fail or fall short, I get up and start again the next day. And please, you do not need to lecture about "not all white women". It happens to be true what I said--and there are a few on this board that I would absolutely include. White women who are speaking out against injustices, walking the walk, talking the talk, taking on social issues that they may have never taken on before or getting educated and being "woke" need to be recognized as allies in the fight to correct, heal, resolve injustices. What if women (of all ethnicity) could group and work together? Don't you think that would be a better plan with a better outcome than immediately telling them that their work does not matter or is not enough? Isn't that what this thread is supposed to be about? wink, wink... I get that white women are privileged--and many know it, and many actually do something about it, but it does no good to degenerate them, tell them that it is not helpful. (and also is part of why some may not post anything to these types of threads--they really want to know what would matter the most or to do, but at the same time do not want to be beat down out of the gate.)
I can certainly acknowledge that Olan has posted threads in the past, be it an article, essay, writing, news link, etc. that actually are helpful and educating and absolutely could generate thoughtful, respectful discussion. This thread is not one of those. She came in swinging about the lack of white woman activism, slung words meant as insults ("stay where you are") and then deeper into the thread walked it back--Her OP and subsequent posts show that right quick. None of what she is posting here is "honoring Virginia's memory and her request to persist".
I’ve been here for a long time, but do not share your opinion of what you believe to be Olan’s purpose or intent in posting here or what she’s looking for. I can’t speak to her intent or make assumptions about why she posts what she does. I don’t see her as continuously attacking white women. Does she post about race and racial inequity? Does she hold white people accountable? Sure. The challenge in working towards being anti-racist is in not seeing that as “attack” on white people but as someone’s lived experience and examining the truth about how whiteness has impacted the history and present of our country. Several folks got into the “not all white women,” and I can’t think of a time when that attitude or comment is helpful. If it’s not you, it’s not you. True or not true, it’s almost never a comment that advances the conversation or leads to meaningful discussion.
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Post by refugeepea on Oct 24, 2019 4:23:25 GMT
I'll answer the question. I am doing nothing. Absolutely nothing. There's your answer. I truly envy people that have jobs, people that have time, people that can volunteer, people that travel to gain a new perspective, people that have money to contribute to important causes, people that can take a break from their responsibilities and pursue a passionate cause, people that make a difference to this world. I used to make a difference a long time ago and now I exist.
The small things I try to do are not enough and will never be enough. I won't participate on the Call to Action thread for that reason. It's embarrassing, depressing, and not worth mentioning. All I can do is read about racism, but there's no one I can educate. I don't participate on the what's for dinner thread because I hate cooking and that's what I thought it was primarily about until reading this thread.
There it is; I answered the question. My white fragility is showing.
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Post by lesserknownpea on Oct 24, 2019 4:49:44 GMT
I'll answer the question. I am doing nothing. Absolutely nothing. There's your answer. I truly envy people that have jobs, people that have time, people that can volunteer, people that travel to gain a new perspective, people that have money to contribute to important causes, people that can take a break from their responsibilities and pursue a passionate cause, people that make a difference to this world. I used to make a difference a long time ago and now I exist. The small things I try to do are not enough and will never be enough. I won't participate on the Call to Action thread for that reason. It's embarrassing, depressing, and not worth mentioning. All I can do is read about racism, but there's no one I can educate. I don't participate on the what's for dinner thread because I hate cooking and that's what I thought it was primarily about until reading this thread. There it is; I answered the question. My white fragility is showing. ((Hugs))
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 24, 2019 5:07:33 GMT
I spoke to what Olan was "feigning" purpose to this thread. She walked back from her OP and was attempting to say that this is what the thread/her OP question was all about. But it wasn't. I have learned over the years that Olan is not really looking for a decent, mature, constructive, or even educating discussion when she starts in on the white woman privileged monolouge. She prefers to immediately go on the attack of white women, and there are many threads revealing that intent. Under the guise of trying to enlighten or encourage activism, she is always chipping away at the morale of those whom she deems don't do enough (white women). Her tone is crystal clear. It is to create the most discomfort, to degenerate, to hurt and injure. I can imagine why. It's not her job to make white women feel better about themselves as to what they do or don't do. Her tone--and most specifically the finite words and phrases that she choses to use--all mean to shame, put down, make uncomfortable...yet a few say it is not her job to educate. While I know that you are also of the school of "it's not a black woman's job to educate..." What if she did? How do you think the discussion would go? How do you think that others would receive that? Do you not think that other peas would reflect on her words better? I am not afraid of anyone telling me that I am a privileged white woman. I know it. I do the work to be educated and enlightened and to help to resolve, heal, correct the injustices. I just don't feel the need to post what it is that I do, to tout that I do it---it is not extraordinary, or heroic, it is not something to be celebrated, get a pat on the back, etc. And if I fail or fall short, I get up and start again the next day. And please, you do not need to lecture about "not all white women". It happens to be true what I said--and there are a few on this board that I would absolutely include. White women who are speaking out against injustices, walking the walk, talking the talk, taking on social issues that they may have never taken on before or getting educated and being "woke" need to be recognized as allies in the fight to correct, heal, resolve injustices. What if women (of all ethnicity) could group and work together? Don't you think that would be a better plan with a better outcome than immediately telling them that their work does not matter or is not enough? Isn't that what this thread is supposed to be about? wink, wink... I get that white women are privileged--and many know it, and many actually do something about it, but it does no good to degenerate them, tell them that it is not helpful. (and also is part of why some may not post anything to these types of threads--they really want to know what would matter the most or to do, but at the same time do not want to be beat down out of the gate.)
I can certainly acknowledge that Olan has posted threads in the past, be it an article, essay, writing, news link, etc. that actually are helpful and educating and absolutely could generate thoughtful, respectful discussion. This thread is not one of those. She came in swinging about the lack of white woman activism, slung words meant as insults ("stay where you are") and then deeper into the thread walked it back--Her OP and subsequent posts show that right quick. None of what she is posting here is "honoring Virginia's memory and her request to persist".
I’ve been here for a long time, but do not share your opinion of what you believe to be Olan’s purpose or intent in posting here or what she’s looking for. I can’t speak to her intent or make assumptions about why she posts what she does. I don’t see her as continuously attacking white women. Does she post about race and racial inequity? Does she hold white people accountable? Sure. The challenge in working towards being anti-racist is in not seeing that as “attack” on white people but as someone’s lived experience and examining the truth about how whiteness has impacted the history and present of our country. Several folks got into the “not all white women,” and I can’t think of a time when that attitude or comment is helpful. If it’s not you, it’s not you. True or not true, it’s almost never a comment that advances the conversation or leads to meaningful discussion. It's quite alright that we don't share the same opinion. I know I am not alone in my opinion. In my experience here on this board with Olan, I see that when she starts out like she has, then does the word play gymnastics that she does, the threads disintegrate quickly. You are totally missing or ignoring what I am saying. I have no issue having discussions of white women failing, white fragility, whiteness. etc. My comments were not speaking to any of that. I spoke to the gaslighting that Olan was doing later in the thread, when she posted about the purpose of the thread being to "Honor Virginia's memory and to continue to persist", yet she started out by slamming white women for not doing enough--how is that "honoring Virginia?" If it does, please do explain as I am totally in the dark. I can certainly think of times where being "not all white women" has been progressive, impactful, helpful and does drive positive discussion, it's a shame that you see it as a negative. It is not an "attitude" as you describe it. It's just a fact. It is not a way of living, a way of acting, a way of being better than---it's just a fact. You did not address any of my other questions, so I will leave this right here.
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Post by SockMonkey on Oct 24, 2019 10:20:06 GMT
I really saw nothing wrong with Olan’s original question or her follow ups but do think it’s very interesting how the reactions went. So much focus on who Olan is perceived to be and her tone rather than her admittedly “tough question.”
Not surprising, considering that this is NSBR, though. I guess many threads here get personal like that, but it feels exceptionally gross when a woman of color asks white women a pointed question and then gets dragged for a) pointing out the presence and role of whiteness and b) not having a kind enough or “educational” enough tone.
Yikes.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 24, 2019 10:45:02 GMT
I really saw nothing wrong with Olan’s original question or her follow ups but do think it’s very interesting how the reactions went. So much focus on who Olan is perceived to be and her tone rather than her admittedly “tough question.” Not surprising, considering that this is NSBR, though. I guess many threads here get personal like that, but it feels exceptionally gross when a woman of color asks white women a pointed question and then gets dragged for a) pointing out the presence and role of whiteness and b) not having a kind enough or “educational” enough tone. Yikes. Again, you’re totally missing/ignoring the point of what I said. I’m not dragging her for calling out whiteness. That’s all you and your opinion—I’ve clearly stated a few times what I’ve got issue with and you are ignoring it and taking it somewhere else. My issue had nothing to do with the color of skin. Virginia’s Call to Action thread didn’t have anything to do with skin color. And because you’re insisting that the OP merely asked a question,—this is not a question — “I know everyone hates when I bring up the sense of responsibility white women should feel but....*looking around making eye contact with those of you who haven’t averted their eyes...”
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Post by peasapie on Oct 24, 2019 12:31:31 GMT
I find this focus on skin color and race very old school, to be honest. So many women of all races are in need of shelter and protection, support for their sexuality, assistance for themselves and their children - and as a group of women, for one to call out others on the basis of race is unproductive and self centered. We need to stop knocking our sisters down and start sticking together to build each other up.
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Jul 13, 2014 21:23:27 GMT
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Post by Olan on Oct 24, 2019 13:01:52 GMT
I really saw nothing wrong with Olan’s original question or her follow ups but do think it’s very interesting how the reactions went. So much focus on who Olan is perceived to be and her tone rather than her admittedly “tough question.” Not surprising, considering that this is NSBR, though. I guess many threads here get personal like that, but it feels exceptionally gross when a woman of color asks white women a pointed question and then gets dragged for a) pointing out the presence and role of whiteness and b) not having a kind enough or “educational” enough tone. Yikes. I just wanted to say I really appreciate your defense of me but more importantly I appreciate your commitment to reaching the peas who for whatever reason don’t want to hear it from a black woman. Thank you!
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Nov 22, 2024 14:40:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 13:14:58 GMT
I really saw nothing wrong with Olan’s original question or her follow ups but do think it’s very interesting how the reactions went. So much focus on who Olan is perceived to be and her tone rather than her admittedly “tough question.” Not surprising, considering that this is NSBR, though. I guess many threads here get personal like that, but it feels exceptionally gross when a woman of color asks white women a pointed question and then gets dragged for a) pointing out the presence and role of whiteness and b) not having a kind enough or “educational” enough tone. Yikes. “ I know everyone hates when I bring up the sense of responsibility white women should feel but.”
“would society be in the current state it is in if white women were doing their part.””White women grow up being taught to fear black men”. This a quote from another thread she started. No, it’s not “perceived to be” but she is someone who doesn’t have much use for white women. She reinforces that over and over with comments like the ones above. And when she throws out these little nugget quotes of hers it negates any point she is trying to make. I see Olan as a “dishonest broker” meaning someone who isn’t interested in an honest discussion. Someone who has an agenda that has little to do with the topic at hand.
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Posts: 4,053
Jul 13, 2014 21:23:27 GMT
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Post by Olan on Oct 24, 2019 13:36:01 GMT
I really saw nothing wrong with Olan’s original question or her follow ups but do think it’s very interesting how the reactions went. So much focus on who Olan is perceived to be and her tone rather than her admittedly “tough question.” Not surprising, considering that this is NSBR, though. I guess many threads here get personal like that, but it feels exceptionally gross when a woman of color asks white women a pointed question and then gets dragged for a) pointing out the presence and role of whiteness and b) not having a kind enough or “educational” enough tone. Yikes. “ I know everyone hates when I bring up the sense of responsibility white women should feel but.”
“would society be in the current state it is in if white women were doing their part.””White women grow up being taught to fear black men”. This a quote from another thread she started. No, it’s not “perceived to be” but she is someone who doesn’t have much use for white women. She reinforces that over and over with comments like the ones above. And when she throws out these little nugget quotes of hers it negates any point she is trying to make. I see Olan as a “dishonest broker” meaning someone who isn’t interested in an honest discussion. Someone who has an agenda that has little to do with the topic at hand. Thank you for sharing your opinion regarding my use for white women. I’m sure you used your own algorithm for coming to that conclusion and though I am not interested in how you arrived at your “dishonest broker” I am curious about what thread you quoted and why you didn’t include a link. I stand by that statement that white women and white people in general have been conditioned to fear black men/people and it’s never been warranted seeing as though we were usually the victims. History certainly doesn’t disagree with me, neither would the thousands of Black people lynched behind a lie one white woman told. www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/black-to-the-future/tolerance-for-violence/“Most of the more than 4,400 documented victims of racial terror lynching killed between 1877 and 1950 were killed in the 12 Southern states; Mississippi, Georgia, and Louisiana were among the deadliest. Several hundred additional victims were lynched in other regions, with the highest numbers in Oklahoma, Missouri, Illinois, and West Virginia. Many more victims were undocumented and remain unknown. This brutality continued into the twentieth century, and national leaders and mainstream media outlets quickly learned to use white supremacist views and pro-lynching rhetoric for political gain. In 1906, President Theodore Roosevelt declared, “the greatest existing cause of lynching is the perpetration, especially by black men, of the hideous crime of rape.” An editorial in the Memphis Avalanche Appeal advised, “Let [the black man] keep his hands off white women and lynching will soon die out.” “[If] it requires lynching to protect women’s dearest possession from ravening, drunken human beasts,” white women’s rights activist Rebecca Felton wrote in the Atlanta Journal in 1898, “then I say lynch a thousand a week if necessary.” Sexual violence became the most common justification for deadly vigilante violence targeting black men and terrorizing black communities. In fact, fewer than 25 percent of documented African American lynching victims were accused of sexual assault and less than 30 percent were accused of murder. Because African Americans were presumed guilty and dangerous, accusations lodged against them were rarely scrutinized; nearly all were lynched without an investigation, much less a trial. Shortly after Reuben Sims was lynched for assaulting a white woman in Baldwin County, Alabama, in 1904, the local sheriff admitted he was innocent but nonetheless refused to arrest any members of the lynch mob. When 17-year-old Henry Smith was accused of killing a white girl in Paris, Texas, in 1893, he was quickly captured and condemned without trial or investigation. On February 1, a mob of 10,000 people gathered from across the state to watch as Henry was paraded through town on a carnival float, forced onto a 10-foot-high platform at the county fairgrounds, brutally tortured for nearly an hour, and then burned alive. “Caucasian Vengeance for African Barbarity,” declared a Fort Worth Daily Gazette headline above an article describing the fate of the “Animal Form of Rapist-Murderer-Savage-Fiendish Negro, Henry Smith.” In common but much-less-publicized incidents, lynching victims were targeted not for allegations of crime but for pursuing political and economic equality. Dozens of black sugar cane workers were lynched in Thibodaux, Louisiana, in 1887 for striking to protest low wages. In 1884, after Calvin Mike cast a vote in Calhoun County, Georgia, a white mob attacked and burned his home, killing his elderly mother and his two young daughters, Emma and Lillie.” Meanwhile white men were left to rape black and white women without fear of lynching let alone arrest. And you still see a lot of that attitude present day.
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Post by summer on Oct 24, 2019 13:52:32 GMT
I don’t open or post in the dinner thread because it doesn’t interest me. I also never posted in the call to action thread because that’s just not what I come here for. This is a message board where I come for entertainment when I’m bored and need to kill a few minutes on my phone. Like right now I’m sitting in a lobby while my kids do Ninja Warrior Class. I want threads where people are arguing about foot flushing and hand towels and poop knives. This is Pealand. I don’t really come here for the tough questions. I relate to this. I've never participated on the dinner thread or the call to action thread and probably never will. In fact, I don't believe I've even ever opened either thread. I come here for entertainment and fluff threads when I have a few minutes to read the board.
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Posts: 4,053
Jul 13, 2014 21:23:27 GMT
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Post by Olan on Oct 24, 2019 13:54:31 GMT
I don’t open or post in the dinner thread because it doesn’t interest me. I also never posted in the call to action thread because that’s just not what I come here for. This is a message board where I come for entertainment when I’m bored and need to kill a few minutes on my phone. Like right now I’m sitting in a lobby while my kids do Ninja Warrior Class. I want threads where people are arguing about foot flushing and hand towels and poop knives. This is Pealand. I don’t really come here for the tough questions. I relate to this. I've never participated on the dinner thread or the call to action thread and probably never will. In fact, I don't believe I've even ever opened either thread. I come here for entertainment and fluff threads when I have a few minutes to read the board. Understandable. There is just a lot going on in the world politically and as it relates to social justice issues though I get wanting an entertaining place to waste time.
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Post by shevy on Oct 24, 2019 14:19:36 GMT
I spoke to the gaslighting that Olan was doing later in the thread, when she posted about the purpose of the thread being to "Honor Virginia's memory and to continue to persist", yet she started out by slamming white women for not doing enough--how is that "honoring Virginia?" If it does, please do explain as I am totally in the dark. It is honoring Virginia because she would be calling people out just as much as Olan does.
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Post by shevy on Oct 24, 2019 14:22:05 GMT
I find this focus on skin color and race very old school, to be honest. So many women of all races are in need of shelter and protection, support for their sexuality, assistance for themselves and their children - and as a group of women, for one to call out others on the basis of race is unproductive and self centered. We need to stop knocking our sisters down and start sticking together to build each other up. I can assure you it is not 'old school'. Far from it. And what I said before still applies. You think that all women need help for those things that you posted. But women of color face all of that, plus being a woman of color. It's another level added on to the fighting they have to do to get to a good place in life. Instead of calling out 'all women', try just advocating for those unlike you/different from you and see their struggle.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 24, 2019 16:46:02 GMT
I spoke to the gaslighting that Olan was doing later in the thread, when she posted about the purpose of the thread being to "Honor Virginia's memory and to continue to persist", yet she started out by slamming white women for not doing enough--how is that "honoring Virginia?" If it does, please do explain as I am totally in the dark. It is honoring Virginia because she would be calling people out just as much as Olan does. Ahhhh...now it makes sense—-Olan calling out white women for not doing enough IS her call to action, thank you shevy! Can’t believe I didn’t relate that earlier.
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Post by peasapie on Oct 24, 2019 16:46:46 GMT
I find this focus on skin color and race very old school, to be honest. So many women of all races are in need of shelter and protection, support for their sexuality, assistance for themselves and their children - and as a group of women, for one to call out others on the basis of race is unproductive and self centered. We need to stop knocking our sisters down and start sticking together to build each other up. I can assure you it is not 'old school'. Far from it. And what I said before still applies. You think that all women need help for those things that you posted. But women of color face all of that, plus being a woman of color. It's another level added on to the fighting they have to do to get to a good place in life. Instead of calling out 'all women', try just advocating for those unlike you/different from you and see their struggle. Thats' your opinion, not mine. There are many, many women with issues, and this focus on one race or another divides us rather than uniting us - it's one reason this president got into office. So let's keep that in mind and please - don't lecture me on whom I should advocate for. I'm a staunch advocate for ALL women and do not believe one race should be treated differently than another.
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