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Post by hopemax on Oct 10, 2023 22:44:25 GMT
I am on Twitter and use Lists to follow both the Ukraine / Russia war and now this. Jon Ostrower, an aviation reporter my DH follows created a list that I have found the most informative of the ones I have tried. It is more slanted to Open Source Intelligence and independent reporters, who are often located in the affected areas or at least Europe / West Asia instead of major media outlets (we all know how to get to CNN, NY Times, etc.) He first set it up for Ukraine, but I see he has added more more Israel / Palestine / Iran focused accounts. It's been useful because as various situations have unfolded... the conflict between Azerbaijan / Armenia, the situation in Iran in regards to the oppression of women all hit this list before I saw anything in main stream media. The people included to a good job of providing warning messages, and labeling sensitive content while still trying to raise awareness of the atrocities being committed. So I recommend this list as a starting place. Also adding, because many of the accounts are OSINT accounts they are the ones that are going through other images and verifying that they are from the current conflict, and recent and not things that happened in the past or elsewhere. twitter.com/i/lists/1490427245097148423
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Bridget in MD
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,054
Member is Online
Jun 25, 2014 20:40:00 GMT
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 11, 2023 13:24:00 GMT
Yes. Twitter and Tik Tok are both sending messages that parents should delete their apps so kids don’t come across the images from this conflict. There are extremely graphic images of the beheaded babies and other atrocities.They are sending out videos of the hostages and the conditions they are in. Videos of rapes and bodies of soldiers..Yesterday TFG was jovial at his rally talking about it and literally danced of the stage. I follow Under the Desk News and she warned that HAMAS is telling people to delete SM, or make sure their children have it deleted, bc by Friday, they will be purposefully releasing this graphic content. That group is so fucked up, I just can't stand it.
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Post by mom on Oct 11, 2023 13:51:09 GMT
Does anyone have the thread saved from where we discussed Israel / Palestine in the past? If I recall, it was about a year ago and Allipeas had shared her views on it and her family.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 11, 2023 13:59:48 GMT
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Post by mom on Oct 11, 2023 14:06:48 GMT
It was -- thank you! I had done a search but no results came up and I wasn't 100% sure I wasn't dreaming it.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 11, 2023 17:03:16 GMT
snowsilverNot just babies, at least 20 including toddlers, two and under. toddlers are aware... This has been 100% confirmed by the Israeli government! They are not confirming numbers. I fear the hostages and most of the Palestinians will lose their lives and the Gaza area will be uninhabitable for years.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 11, 2023 18:12:38 GMT
I just can't imagine this will ever end. The lack of humanity is just horrible. I don't dismiss the Palestinian frustration - I come from ancestors who's land was part of Spain, then Mexico then when it became part of the US their land rights disappeared - despite farming that land for 200+ years. I don't pretend that this is easy or fair - but at some point you have to acknowledge that carnage is not the answer. Anytime there is even a hint of progress of any stability, those who just want chaos and terror react.
I know Israel was supposed to be the safe haven - but at this point, I'd rather offer every Israeli citizen $100,000 and automatic citizenship. The experiment has failed.
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Post by MichyM on Oct 11, 2023 18:27:16 GMT
I just can't imagine this will ever end. The lack of humanity is just horrible. I don't dismiss the Palestinian frustration - I come from ancestors who's land was part of Spain, then Mexico then when it became part of the US their land rights disappeared - despite farming that land for 200+ years. I don't pretend that this is easy or fair - but at some point you have to acknowledge that carnage is not the answer. Anytime there is even a hint of progress of any stability, those who just want chaos and terror react. I know Israel was supposed to be the safe haven - but at this point, I'd rather offer every Israeli citizen $100,000 and automatic citizenship. The experiment has failed. For what? To leave Israel?
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Oct 11, 2023 18:52:32 GMT
I just can't imagine this will ever end. The lack of humanity is just horrible. I don't dismiss the Palestinian frustration - I come from ancestors who's land was part of Spain, then Mexico then when it became part of the US their land rights disappeared - despite farming that land for 200+ years. I don't pretend that this is easy or fair - but at some point you have to acknowledge that carnage is not the answer. Anytime there is even a hint of progress of any stability, those who just want chaos and terror react. I know Israel was supposed to be the safe haven - but at this point, I'd rather offer every Israeli citizen $100,000 and automatic citizenship. The experiment has failed. I bolded. The last pragmatic Israeli PM that wanted to work towards peace, was PM Rabin. He was trying to follow the terms of Oslo, and was assassinated by a Jewish person that was deeply unhappy that there was a plan to "hand over" West Bank. There is no way this area will ever be stable while the world props up Israel and strokes their ideologue romantic belief that these are the Promised Lands and are their birthright. The reality is that Israel was (and is) blatantly occupying Palestinian land (the shrunken version) in direct violation of international law since they stole that land in 1967 (again.) The displaced people without their land, their rights, their safety, passports, or any semblance of stability or ability to make a better life for themselves are the Palestinians. The ones whose homes in East Jerusalem and beyond have been being demolished for generations under the Israeli military occupation. Occupation that has, during this whole time, been rife with human rights violations and violence. Yet, the world turns a blind eye over shared guilty conscience. Over a hundred years ago, Balfour stated the intent that the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people would not do anything to prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." I think we can all agree, that was a lie. In 1948, the Palestinian's were promised the right of return by the UN. A two-state solution. None of that has come to fruition, while the rest of the world subscribes to "Arabs are essentially terrible people that love violence." Ironically, the protests, crime and violence we are seeing in "marginalized people" here in the US are justified response for serious systemic subtle and not so subtle othering. What is happening in Palestine is not suble- it is egregious, debilitating, and yet, when people whose only hope is a 75 year old promise by a world that has only repeatedly lied to them is a promised return to their (actual) homeland lash out and at one time put their trust in a disgusting organization, Hamas, they are vilified forever more. Hamas won't allow elections, because the vast majority of their "constituents" don't follow their extreme beliefs. I do agree the lack of humanity in this whole miserably failed "experiment" is sad. I don't know how it is humane to keep over two million people in squalid conditions, and force them to remain that way for over 70 years. I also find it paradoxical that the world has such a guilty conscience over the attempted genocide of the Jews in Europe, that we turn a blind eye to the blatant persecution of the Palestinian people that made up 80% of the population of Palestine in 1948 when Balfour decided to truly make the land which was Palestine into a Promised Land. But that was a promise made of MEN. Not God.
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Post by mom on Oct 11, 2023 18:57:34 GMT
I just can't imagine this will ever end. The lack of humanity is just horrible. I don't dismiss the Palestinian frustration - I come from ancestors who's land was part of Spain, then Mexico then when it became part of the US their land rights disappeared - despite farming that land for 200+ years. I don't pretend that this is easy or fair - but at some point you have to acknowledge that carnage is not the answer. Anytime there is even a hint of progress of any stability, those who just want chaos and terror react. I know Israel was supposed to be the safe haven - but at this point, I'd rather offer every Israeli citizen $100,000 and automatic citizenship. The experiment has failed. I agree. But I have no answers.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 11, 2023 22:00:17 GMT
I just can't imagine this will ever end. The lack of humanity is just horrible. I don't dismiss the Palestinian frustration - I come from ancestors who's land was part of Spain, then Mexico then when it became part of the US their land rights disappeared - despite farming that land for 200+ years. I don't pretend that this is easy or fair - but at some point you have to acknowledge that carnage is not the answer. Anytime there is even a hint of progress of any stability, those who just want chaos and terror react. I know Israel was supposed to be the safe haven - but at this point, I'd rather offer every Israeli citizen $100,000 and automatic citizenship. The experiment has failed. For what? To leave Israel? That is what I'm suggesting, but am open to any and all suggestions that will end the violence. We send billions every year and there has never been stability. Can we better support those who escaped/survived the violence of WWII and their descendants? We basically threw those who had been victimized and oppressed into an area of conflict with little more than the promise of weaponry to support them. How does this end - honestly how does this end?
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2023 22:14:57 GMT
For what? To leave Israel? That is what I'm suggesting, but am open to any and all suggestions that will end the violence. We send billions every year and there has never been stability. Can we better support those who escaped/survived the violence of WWII and their descendants? We basically threw those who had been victimized and oppressed into an area of conflict with little more than the promise of weaponry to support them. How does this end - honestly how does this end? Why would they come to a country where Nazis are marching openly and the President at the time said there were “fine people” at one of the marches? Where the top Republican candidate is that President? The one who encouraged White Supremacists to attack the capitol and try to overthrow the US government? Where anti-semitism is growing? Where hate crimes against Jews here are growing at an alarming rate? To pretend that the USA is some safe haven for Jews is laughable. If I weren’t tied here due to the fact that my special needs sons wouldn’t be able to successfully immigrate, I would consider picking up and moving to Israel and joining my family (who are dual-citizens and aren’t interested in moving here). 🇮🇱 I never considered that before Trump, but after the march in Charlottesville (which never in my wildest nightmares would I have imagined Nazis marching an hour from where my boys slept) and what has happened in our country since then, I have those longings now.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 11, 2023 22:26:08 GMT
That is what I'm suggesting, but am open to any and all suggestions that will end the violence. We send billions every year and there has never been stability. Can we better support those who escaped/survived the violence of WWII and their descendants? We basically threw those who had been victimized and oppressed into an area of conflict with little more than the promise of weaponry to support them. How does this end - honestly how does this end? Why would they come to a country where Nazis are marching openly and the President who said there were “fine people” at one of the marches? Where the top Republican candidate is that President? The one who encouraged White Supremacists to attack the capitol and try to overthrow the US government? Where anti-semitism is growing? Where hate crimes against Jews here are growing at an alarming rate? To pretend that the USA is some safe haven for Jews is laughable. If I weren’t tied here due to the fact that my special needs sons wouldn’t be able to successfully immigrate, I would consider picking up and moving to Israel and joining my family (who are dual-citizens and aren’t interested in moving here). 🇮🇱 I never considered that before Trump, but after the march in Charlottesville (which never in my wildest nightmares would I have imagined Nazis marching an hour from where my boys slept) and what has happened in our country since then, I have those longings now. Trump was an abomination I will never excuse. I hope we will continue to do better. There's no doubt you can find too much history of antisemitism here - I don't excuse or pretend it doesn't exist. I'm a west coaster - and will always have a bit of that bias of people who for the most part are more ignorant than antisemite - I really did grow up not even understanding that a Cohen or Goldman were Jewish. If not here where? I'm not pretending, but a friend just brough 7 Israelis here. Seriously - they just posted on Facebook asking for support. I don't think we're perfect, but right now we're not beheading people. If someone has a better answer, I am 10000% supportive of it - and would whole heartedly embrace spending our 7 billion dollars supporting people a different way - this isn't working - and it hasn't worked for my entire lifetime.
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Oct 11, 2023 22:45:31 GMT
For what? To leave Israel? That is what I'm suggesting, but am open to any and all suggestions that will end the violence. We send billions every year and there has never been stability. Can we better support those who escaped/survived the violence of WWII and their descendants? We basically threw those who had been victimized and oppressed into an area of conflict with little more than the promise of weaponry to support them. How does this end - honestly how does this end? Perhaps have the Israelis leave the Palestinian land that they are occupying and go to Israel? Stop the blockades? Perhaps act as though they are by and large the direct descendants of people who fled the atrocity of genocide and not inflict it on the Palestinian PEOPLE. You'd think they'd know better. Perhaps the US and UN can stop sending BILLIONS in "aid" to a nuclear superpower that use their "surgical precision" weapons to destroy media buildings, multi family homes, hospitals and schools? Perhaps we could bring ourselves to actually acknowledge the apartheid that the Israelis are perpetrating and demand they do better? Meanwhile, we could also condemn the killing of many Palestinian children that just seems to keep happening? Condemn raiding holy sites and attacking people in mosques? Obviously, the acts of Hamas are awful in their own right and should be universally condemned by the world. The actual humanity of the Palestinian people is being conflated with Hamas and they are not the same.
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2023 22:45:42 GMT
Why would they come to a country where Nazis are marching openly and the President who said there were “fine people” at one of the marches? Where the top Republican candidate is that President? The one who encouraged White Supremacists to attack the capitol and try to overthrow the US government? Where anti-semitism is growing? Where hate crimes against Jews here are growing at an alarming rate? To pretend that the USA is some safe haven for Jews is laughable. If I weren’t tied here due to the fact that my special needs sons wouldn’t be able to successfully immigrate, I would consider picking up and moving to Israel and joining my family (who are dual-citizens and aren’t interested in moving here). 🇮🇱 I never considered that before Trump, but after the march in Charlottesville (which never in my wildest nightmares would I have imagined Nazis marching an hour from where my boys slept) and what has happened in our country since then, I have those longings now. Trump was an abomination I will never excuse. I hope we will continue to do better. There's no doubt you can find too much history of antisemitism here - I don't excuse or pretend it doesn't exist. I'm a west coaster - and will always have a bit of that bias of people who for the most part are more ignorant than antisemite - I really did grow up not even understanding that a Cohen or Goldman were Jewish. If not here where? I'm not pretending, but a friend just brough 7 Israelis here. Seriously - they just posted on Facebook asking for support. I don't think we're perfect, but right now we're not beheading people. If someone has a better answer, I am 10000% supportive of it - and would whole heartedly embrace spending our 7 billion dollars supporting people a different way - this isn't working - and it hasn't worked for my entire lifetime. Trump has overwhelming support - by double-digits over other GOP candidates. How are we doing better? Unless his legal troubles prevent him from running for president, the majority of GOP voters are buying the white supremacy he is selling and will nominate him for president. Where do you think I was born and spent the first 23 years of my life? California. That you were ignorant of Jewish surnames, etc., has nothing to do with being from the West Coast. The public schools I attended in Los Angeles were overwhelmingly Jewish - just ask oh yvonne , we went to the same jr. high, before she moved to another neighborhood, but still with plenty of Jews. Not beheading people doesn’t make this a safe haven. I can’t believe that I have to have this conversation with you. If it comes down to what you will embrace spending funding on, well, I guess that is your bottom line. That doesn’t make a country that is currently glorifying anti-semites as “patriots” or amazing athletes or talented musicians a welcoming place. Please don’t dictate my reality, because you really truly have no. clue. what it is to be Jewish here. If I tried to tell you how Latinx people should feel, I would hope that you would shut me down, because it would be beyond offensive.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 11, 2023 22:55:38 GMT
Trump was an abomination I will never excuse. I hope we will continue to do better. There's no doubt you can find too much history of antisemitism here - I don't excuse or pretend it doesn't exist. I'm a west coaster - and will always have a bit of that bias of people who for the most part are more ignorant than antisemite - I really did grow up not even understanding that a Cohen or Goldman were Jewish. If not here where? I'm not pretending, but a friend just brough 7 Israelis here. Seriously - they just posted on Facebook asking for support. I don't think we're perfect, but right now we're not beheading people. If someone has a better answer, I am 10000% supportive of it - and would whole heartedly embrace spending our 7 billion dollars supporting people a different way - this isn't working - and it hasn't worked for my entire lifetime. Trump has overwhelming support - by double-digits over other GOP candidates. How are we doing better? Unless his legal troubles prevent him from running for president, the majority of GOP voters are buying the white supremacy he is selling and will nominate him for president. Where do you think I was born and spent the first 23 years of my life? California. That you were ignorant of Jewish surnames, etc., has nothing to do with being from the West Coast. The public schools I attended in Los Angeles were overwhelmingly Jewish - just ask oh yvonne , we went to the same jr. high, before she moved to another neighborhood, but still with plenty of Jews. Not beheading people doesn’t make this a safe haven. I can’t believe that I have to have this conversation with you. If it comes down to what you will embrace spending funding on, well, I guess that is your bottom line. That doesn’t make a country that is currently glorifying anti-semites as “patriots” or amazing athletes or talented musicians a welcoming place. Please don’t dictate my reality, because you really truly have no. clue. what it is to be Jewish here. If I tried to tell you how Latinx people should feel, I would hope that you would shut me down, because it would be beyond offensive. I'm sorry Elaine - truly sorry. I am truly open to any and all solutions. I'm just waiting - I hope you know many of us are truly horrified with what is happening. I grew up in the Bay Area and you can dismiss my reality - but what does it help? I am not pretending to understand the Jewish experience - I am just trying to find an end to to the horror that has been the reality of my entire adulthood.
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2023 23:11:18 GMT
Trump has overwhelming support - by double-digits over other GOP candidates. How are we doing better? Unless his legal troubles prevent him from running for president, the majority of GOP voters are buying the white supremacy he is selling and will nominate him for president. Where do you think I was born and spent the first 23 years of my life? California. That you were ignorant of Jewish surnames, etc., has nothing to do with being from the West Coast. The public schools I attended in Los Angeles were overwhelmingly Jewish - just ask oh yvonne , we went to the same jr. high, before she moved to another neighborhood, but still with plenty of Jews. Not beheading people doesn’t make this a safe haven. I can’t believe that I have to have this conversation with you. If it comes down to what you will embrace spending funding on, well, I guess that is your bottom line. That doesn’t make a country that is currently glorifying anti-semites as “patriots” or amazing athletes or talented musicians a welcoming place. Please don’t dictate my reality, because you really truly have no. clue. what it is to be Jewish here. If I tried to tell you how Latinx people should feel, I would hope that you would shut me down, because it would be beyond offensive. I'm sorry Elaine - truly sorry. I am truly open to any and all solutions. I'm just waiting - I hope you know many of us are truly horrified with what is happening. I grew up in the Bay Area and you can dismiss my reality - but what does it help? I am not pretending to understand the Jewish experience - I am just trying to find an end to to the horror that has been the reality of my entire adulthood. Hold the Arab countries surrounding Israel, who confiscated all the lands and property of Jews who were forced to leave with the creation of Israel, responsible for helping the Palestinians. Shine the light on the fact that those surrounding countries don’t offer real support, beyond bombing Israel, with the assets they seized, instead, choosing to keep the Palestinians in poverty and without the infrastructure that would allow for the Palestinians’ independence for those countries’ own political agendas. Instead of relying on Israel to provide electricity, water, etc., maybe use their funds and influence to help the Palestinians actually build their own infrastructure - they have had 75 years to do so.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 11, 2023 23:26:54 GMT
I'm sorry Elaine - truly sorry. I am truly open to any and all solutions. I'm just waiting - I hope you know many of us are truly horrified with what is happening. I grew up in the Bay Area and you can dismiss my reality - but what does it help? I am not pretending to understand the Jewish experience - I am just trying to find an end to to the horror that has been the reality of my entire adulthood. Hold the Arab countries surrounding Israel, who confiscated all the lands and property of Jews who were forced to leave with the creation of Israel, responsible for helping the Palestinians. Shine the light on the fact that those surrounding countries don’t offer real support, beyond bombing Israel, with the assets they seized, instead, choosing to keep the Palestinians in poverty and without the infrastructure that would allow for the Palestinians’ independence for those countries’ own political agendas. Instead of relying on Israel to provide electricity, water, etc., maybe use their funds and influence to help the Palestinians actually build their own infrastructure - they have had 75 years to do so. Of course - seriously no one who has been paying even the slightest bit of attention disagrees. Why for my entire life has NONE of these countries have chosen to accept the Palestines - absolutely no one who has paid even the slightest bit of attention disagrees - but honestly what NOW. acknowledge absolutely every single bit of the bullshit of the last 40 years - what now?
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scrappinmama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,884
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Oct 11, 2023 23:53:14 GMT
I'm trying to do a lot of listening on this because I am embarrassingly uninformed on the long history between Israel and Palestine. I appreciate Elaine for sharing during what must be a very painful and scary time. It's not your job to do to educate us on this subject, but when you share, I appreciate it.
I unfollowed a few left-leaning social media accounts because they refuse to condemn Hamas. Black Lives Matter went as far as to release a statement saying Hamas terror attack was "a desperate act of self defense." WTF?! What the actual f@ck! There is NEVER a reason to rape women, kill and decapitate innocent children and elderly people. And their reason was to say they are marginalized like Palestinians. Well I am Latina, also a marginalized group and I sure as hell will never support terrorists. You can have sympathy for the innocent people in Palestine who are caught in the middle and still condemn Hamas and the terrorist acts that they committed. And you can still dislike a government, but still show compassion and support for the people of Israel. I just don't understand how anyone can take the side of Hamas without being antisemites themselves.
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Post by mom on Oct 12, 2023 0:12:34 GMT
I'm trying to do a lot of listening on this because I am embarrassingly uninformed on the long history between Israel and Palestine. I appreciate Elaine for sharing during what must be a very painful and scary time. It's not your job to do to educate us on this subject, but when you share, I appreciate it. I unfollowed a few left-leaning social media accounts because they refuse to condemn Hamas. Black Lives Matter went as far as to release a statement saying Hamas terror attack was "a desperate act of self defense." WTF?! What the actual f@ck! There is NEVER a reason to rape women, kill and decapitate innocent children and elderly people. And their reason was to say they are marginalized like Palestinians. Well I am Latina, also a marginalized group and I sure as hell will never support terrorists. You can have sympathy for the innocent people in Palestine who are caught in the middle and still condemn Hamas and the terrorist acts that they committed. And you can still dislike a government, but still show compassion and support for the people of Israel. I just don't understand how anyone can take the side of Hamas without being antisemites themselves. I was pretty disgusted when I saw the BLM Chicago post this morning with the hangliders . They are walking it back now, but wow. www.tmz.com/2023/10/11/black-lives-matter-blm-hamas-israel-support-palestine/
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Oct 12, 2023 0:41:21 GMT
I'm sorry Elaine - truly sorry. I am truly open to any and all solutions. I'm just waiting - I hope you know many of us are truly horrified with what is happening. I grew up in the Bay Area and you can dismiss my reality - but what does it help? I am not pretending to understand the Jewish experience - I am just trying to find an end to to the horror that has been the reality of my entire adulthood. Hold the Arab countries surrounding Israel, who confiscated all the lands and property of Jews who were forced to leave with the creation of Israel, responsible for helping the Palestinians. Shine the light on the fact that those surrounding countries don’t offer real support, beyond bombing Israel, with the assets they seized, instead, choosing to keep the Palestinians in poverty and without the infrastructure that would allow for the Palestinians’ independence for those countries’ own political agendas. Instead of relying on Israel to provide electricity, water, etc., maybe use their funds and influence to help the Palestinians actually build their own infrastructure - they have had 75 years to do so. It certainly wasn't cool that the US appropriated the resources and land from the Native Americans, either, or any other time in human history a dominant people robbed, stole, tortured and erased a people and their history. Also very not cool that Israel is literally doing exactly that as we speak. Palestinians in Gaza literally cannot leave without Israeli permission, and have been rounded up, and stuffed in an over crowded, squalid fenced in area surrounded by military occupiers with no prospects, limited resources, constant violence and stripped of human dignity.... OH WAIT! That has happened before! AND we fund it, we support it, we provide them with weapons... So much for know better do better. Gaza and West Bank have been under Israeli occupation and settlement on and off for decades. Mostly on. This is literally unlawful per international law, as is the continual annexation of Palestinian land and settlement. There is no way for anything or anyone to move in and out of either Gaza or West Bank, other than through Israeli controlled lands and corruption. It is hardly any wonder that Arab nations have not assisted with infrastructure. (Not to assume that they would if these nonstarters weren't in place.) Perhaps if Israelis would gtfo of land they aren't supposed to be in, they may no longer need to provide these things-------- when it suits them. When you take people prisoner, you have to feed them, give them water etc. But then again, that's just another pesky international law that Israel is allowed to flagrantly ignore------- and yet we are literally going to send this nuclear weapons holding (according to SIPRI- although Israel has never actually confirmed or denied) human rights denying, military occupying country YET MORE military aid. Who is keeping the Palestinians in poverty? It is laughable that you are faulting the Arab countries that are (thankfully!) choosing not to seriously attack Israel, a coddled bully propped up by the UN/US, despite their multiple human rights and international law violations, which literally surrounds what little scraps of land Palestine is supposed to be "allowed" to call theirs.
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Post by lucyg on Oct 12, 2023 0:52:14 GMT
For what? To leave Israel? That is what I'm suggesting, but am open to any and all suggestions that will end the violence. We send billions every year and there has never been stability. Can we better support those who escaped/survived the violence of WWII and their descendants? We basically threw those who had been victimized and oppressed into an area of conflict with little more than the promise of weaponry to support them. How does this end - honestly how does this end? “We” did not “throw” Holocaust survivors into an area of conflict. Eastern European Jews had been working on legally re-establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine for decades by 1948. They bought and paid for every bit of land they acquired from Arab owners. (ETA Holocaust survivors were desperate to reach Palestine. No one was dumped there.) After independence, the Palestinians were invited to stay and work with the Jews but most chose not to. The remaining Arab countries refused to take any of them in or lift a finger to help them. So we ended up with a permanently homeless class of Palestinians. And this is the result. Israelis do not want to move to the U.S. They want to stay in Israel and defend their homeland.
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Post by lucyg on Oct 12, 2023 0:56:40 GMT
I just can't imagine this will ever end. The lack of humanity is just horrible. I don't dismiss the Palestinian frustration - I come from ancestors who's land was part of Spain, then Mexico then when it became part of the US their land rights disappeared - despite farming that land for 200+ years. I don't pretend that this is easy or fair - but at some point you have to acknowledge that carnage is not the answer. Anytime there is even a hint of progress of any stability, those who just want chaos and terror react. I know Israel was supposed to be the safe haven - but at this point, I'd rather offer every Israeli citizen $100,000 and automatic citizenship. The experiment has failed. I bolded. The last pragmatic Israeli PM that wanted to work towards peace, was PM Rabin. He was trying to follow the terms of Oslo, and was assassinated by a Jewish person that was deeply unhappy that there was a plan to "hand over" West Bank. There is no way this area will ever be stable while the world props up Israel and strokes their ideologue romantic belief that these are the Promised Lands and are their birthright. The reality is that Israel was (and is) blatantly occupying Palestinian land (the shrunken version) in direct violation of international law since they stole that land in 1967 (again.) The displaced people without their land, their rights, their safety, passports, or any semblance of stability or ability to make a better life for themselves are the Palestinians. The ones whose homes in East Jerusalem and beyond have been being demolished for generations under the Israeli military occupation. Occupation that has, during this whole time, been rife with human rights violations and violence. Yet, the world turns a blind eye over shared guilty conscience. Over a hundred years ago, Balfour stated the intent that the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people would not do anything to prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." I think we can all agree, that was a lie. In 1948, the Palestinian's were promised the right of return by the UN. A two-state solution. None of that has come to fruition, while the rest of the world subscribes to "Arabs are essentially terrible people that love violence." Ironically, the protests, crime and violence we are seeing in "marginalized people" here in the US are justified response for serious systemic subtle and not so subtle othering. What is happening in Palestine is not suble- it is egregious, debilitating, and yet, when people whose only hope is a 75 year old promise by a world that has only repeatedly lied to them is a promised return to their (actual) homeland lash out and at one time put their trust in a disgusting organization, Hamas, they are vilified forever more. Hamas won't allow elections, because the vast majority of their "constituents" don't follow their extreme beliefs. I do agree the lack of humanity in this whole miserably failed "experiment" is sad. I don't know how it is humane to keep over two million people in squalid conditions, and force them to remain that way for over 70 years. I also find it paradoxical that the world has such a guilty conscience over the attempted genocide of the Jews in Europe, that we turn a blind eye to the blatant persecution of the Palestinian people that made up 80% of the population of Palestine in 1948 when Balfour decided to truly make the land which was Palestine into a Promised Land. But that was a promise made of MEN. Not God. Perhaps have the Israelis leave the Palestinian land that they are occupying and go to Israel? Stop the blockades? Perhaps act as though they are by and large the direct descendants of people who fled the atrocity of genocide and not inflict it on the Palestinian PEOPLE. You'd think they'd know better. Perhaps the US and UN can stop sending BILLIONS in "aid" to a nuclear superpower that use their "surgical precision" weapons to destroy media buildings, multi family homes, hospitals and schools? Perhaps we could bring ourselves to actually acknowledge the apartheid that the Israelis are perpetrating and demand they do better? Meanwhile, we could also condemn the killing of many Palestinian children that just seems to keep happening? Condemn raiding holy sites and attacking people in mosques? Obviously, the acts of Hamas are awful in their own right and should be universally condemned by the world. The actual humanity of the Palestinian people is being conflated with Hamas and they are not the same. It certainly wasn't cool that the US appropriated the resources and land from the Native Americans, either, or any other time in human history a dominant people robbed, stole, tortured and erased a people and their history. Also very not cool that Israel is literally doing exactly that as we speak. Palestinians in Gaza literally cannot leave without Israeli permission, and have been rounded up, and stuffed in an over crowded, squalid fenced in area surrounded by military occupiers with no prospects, limited resources, constant violence and stripped of human dignity.... OH WAIT! That has happened before! AND we fund it, we support it, we provide them with weapons... So much for know better do better. Gaza and West Bank have been under Israeli occupation and settlement on and off for decades. Mostly on. This is literally unlawful per international law, as is the continual annexation of Palestinian land and settlement. There is no way for anything or anyone to move in and out of either Gaza or West Bank, other than through Israeli controlled lands and corruption. It is hardly any wonder that Arab nations have not assisted with infrastructure. (Not to assume that they would if these nonstarters weren't in place.) Perhaps if Israelis would gtfo of land they aren't supposed to be in, they may no longer need to provide these things-------- when it suits them. When you take people prisoner, you have to feed them, give them water etc. But then again, that's just another pesky international law that Israel is allowed to flagrantly ignore------- and yet we are literally going to send this nuclear weapons holding (according to SIPRI- although Israel has never actually confirmed or denied) human rights denying, military occupying country YET MORE military aid. Who is keeping the Palestinians in poverty? It is laughable that you are faulting the Arab countries that are (thankfully!) choosing not to seriously attack Israel, a coddled bully propped up by the UN/US, despite their multiple human rights and international law violations, which literally surrounds what little scraps of land Palestine is supposed to be "allowed" to call theirs. Thank you for making your views on this subject very, very clear. I doubt any of us will be able to forget this anti-semitic vomit you chose to share.
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Oct 12, 2023 1:00:55 GMT
I bolded. The last pragmatic Israeli PM that wanted to work towards peace, was PM Rabin. He was trying to follow the terms of Oslo, and was assassinated by a Jewish person that was deeply unhappy that there was a plan to "hand over" West Bank. There is no way this area will ever be stable while the world props up Israel and strokes their ideologue romantic belief that these are the Promised Lands and are their birthright. The reality is that Israel was (and is) blatantly occupying Palestinian land (the shrunken version) in direct violation of international law since they stole that land in 1967 (again.) The displaced people without their land, their rights, their safety, passports, or any semblance of stability or ability to make a better life for themselves are the Palestinians. The ones whose homes in East Jerusalem and beyond have been being demolished for generations under the Israeli military occupation. Occupation that has, during this whole time, been rife with human rights violations and violence. Yet, the world turns a blind eye over shared guilty conscience. Over a hundred years ago, Balfour stated the intent that the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people would not do anything to prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." I think we can all agree, that was a lie. In 1948, the Palestinian's were promised the right of return by the UN. A two-state solution. None of that has come to fruition, while the rest of the world subscribes to "Arabs are essentially terrible people that love violence." Ironically, the protests, crime and violence we are seeing in "marginalized people" here in the US are justified response for serious systemic subtle and not so subtle othering. What is happening in Palestine is not suble- it is egregious, debilitating, and yet, when people whose only hope is a 75 year old promise by a world that has only repeatedly lied to them is a promised return to their (actual) homeland lash out and at one time put their trust in a disgusting organization, Hamas, they are vilified forever more. Hamas won't allow elections, because the vast majority of their "constituents" don't follow their extreme beliefs. I do agree the lack of humanity in this whole miserably failed "experiment" is sad. I don't know how it is humane to keep over two million people in squalid conditions, and force them to remain that way for over 70 years. I also find it paradoxical that the world has such a guilty conscience over the attempted genocide of the Jews in Europe, that we turn a blind eye to the blatant persecution of the Palestinian people that made up 80% of the population of Palestine in 1948 when Balfour decided to truly make the land which was Palestine into a Promised Land. But that was a promise made of MEN. Not God. Perhaps have the Israelis leave the Palestinian land that they are occupying and go to Israel? Stop the blockades? Perhaps act as though they are by and large the direct descendants of people who fled the atrocity of genocide and not inflict it on the Palestinian PEOPLE. You'd think they'd know better. Perhaps the US and UN can stop sending BILLIONS in "aid" to a nuclear superpower that use their "surgical precision" weapons to destroy media buildings, multi family homes, hospitals and schools? Perhaps we could bring ourselves to actually acknowledge the apartheid that the Israelis are perpetrating and demand they do better? Meanwhile, we could also condemn the killing of many Palestinian children that just seems to keep happening? Condemn raiding holy sites and attacking people in mosques? Obviously, the acts of Hamas are awful in their own right and should be universally condemned by the world. The actual humanity of the Palestinian people is being conflated with Hamas and they are not the same. It certainly wasn't cool that the US appropriated the resources and land from the Native Americans, either, or any other time in human history a dominant people robbed, stole, tortured and erased a people and their history. Also very not cool that Israel is literally doing exactly that as we speak. Palestinians in Gaza literally cannot leave without Israeli permission, and have been rounded up, and stuffed in an over crowded, squalid fenced in area surrounded by military occupiers with no prospects, limited resources, constant violence and stripped of human dignity.... OH WAIT! That has happened before! AND we fund it, we support it, we provide them with weapons... So much for know better do better. Gaza and West Bank have been under Israeli occupation and settlement on and off for decades. Mostly on. This is literally unlawful per international law, as is the continual annexation of Palestinian land and settlement. There is no way for anything or anyone to move in and out of either Gaza or West Bank, other than through Israeli controlled lands and corruption. It is hardly any wonder that Arab nations have not assisted with infrastructure. (Not to assume that they would if these nonstarters weren't in place.) Perhaps if Israelis would gtfo of land they aren't supposed to be in, they may no longer need to provide these things-------- when it suits them. When you take people prisoner, you have to feed them, give them water etc. But then again, that's just another pesky international law that Israel is allowed to flagrantly ignore------- and yet we are literally going to send this nuclear weapons holding (according to SIPRI- although Israel has never actually confirmed or denied) human rights denying, military occupying country YET MORE military aid. Who is keeping the Palestinians in poverty? It is laughable that you are faulting the Arab countries that are (thankfully!) choosing not to seriously attack Israel, a coddled bully propped up by the UN/US, despite their multiple human rights and international law violations, which literally surrounds what little scraps of land Palestine is supposed to be "allowed" to call theirs. Thank you for making your views on this subject very, very clear. I doubt any of us will be able to forget this anti-semitic vomit you chose to share. I'm not sure which part was anti-semitic. But I guess having any opinion that doesn't absolve Israelis of their crimes is technically anti-semetic. So yeah, the whole militant Israeli human rights violations and international law violating... I own that I find it disgusting. Regardless who's doing it.
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Post by MichyM on Oct 12, 2023 1:14:50 GMT
For what? To leave Israel? That is what I'm suggesting, but am open to any and all suggestions that will end the violence. We send billions every year and there has never been stability. Can we better support those who escaped/survived the violence of WWII and their descendants? We basically threw those who had been victimized and oppressed into an area of conflict with little more than the promise of weaponry to support them. How does this end - honestly how does this end? I wanted to be certain that I understood correctly, and I am pretty much speechless. Why would ANYONE leave their home with the promise of $100k and US citizenship? I mean, US of all places? And a measly $100k. That, in my opinion is a non-starter.
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Post by MichyM on Oct 12, 2023 1:18:07 GMT
Why would they come to a country where Nazis are marching openly and the President who said there were “fine people” at one of the marches? Where the top Republican candidate is that President? The one who encouraged White Supremacists to attack the capitol and try to overthrow the US government? Where anti-semitism is growing? Where hate crimes against Jews here are growing at an alarming rate? To pretend that the USA is some safe haven for Jews is laughable. If I weren’t tied here due to the fact that my special needs sons wouldn’t be able to successfully immigrate, I would consider picking up and moving to Israel and joining my family (who are dual-citizens and aren’t interested in moving here). 🇮🇱 I never considered that before Trump, but after the march in Charlottesville (which never in my wildest nightmares would I have imagined Nazis marching an hour from where my boys slept) and what has happened in our country since then, I have those longings now. Trump was an abomination I will never excuse. I hope we will continue to do better. There's no doubt you can find too much history of antisemitism here - I don't excuse or pretend it doesn't exist. I'm a west coaster - and will always have a bit of that bias of people who for the most part are more ignorant than antisemite - I really did grow up not even understanding that a Cohen or Goldman were Jewish. If not here where? I'm not pretending, but a friend just brough 7 Israelis here. Seriously - they just posted on Facebook asking for support. I don't think we're perfect, but right now we're not beheading people. If someone has a better answer, I am 10000% supportive of it - and would whole heartedly embrace spending our 7 billion dollars supporting people a different way - this isn't working - and it hasn't worked for my entire lifetime. I am a west coast Jew. As are one half of my extended family. I don’t understand your point (the bolded part). Somehow west coasters are exempt from caring about concerns of Jews?
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Post by MichyM on Oct 12, 2023 1:20:51 GMT
I'm trying to do a lot of listening on this because I am embarrassingly uninformed on the long history between Israel and Palestine. I appreciate Elaine for sharing during what must be a very painful and scary time. It's not your job to do to educate us on this subject, but when you share, I appreciate it. I unfollowed a few left-leaning social media accounts because they refuse to condemn Hamas. Black Lives Matter went as far as to release a statement saying Hamas terror attack was "a desperate act of self defense." WTF?! What the actual f@ck! There is NEVER a reason to rape women, kill and decapitate innocent children and elderly people. And their reason was to say they are marginalized like Palestinians. Well I am Latina, also a marginalized group and I sure as hell will never support terrorists. You can have sympathy for the innocent people in Palestine who are caught in the middle and still condemn Hamas and the terrorist acts that they committed. And you can still dislike a government, but still show compassion and support for the people of Israel. I just don't understand how anyone can take the side of Hamas without being antisemites themselves. I was pretty disgusted when I saw the BLM Chicago post this morning with the hangliders . They are walking it back now, but wow. www.tmz.com/2023/10/11/black-lives-matter-blm-hamas-israel-support-palestine/I literally said OMG out loud. I had no idea someone had done this.
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Post by elaine on Oct 12, 2023 2:07:36 GMT
Trump has overwhelming support - by double-digits over other GOP candidates. How are we doing better? Unless his legal troubles prevent him from running for president, the majority of GOP voters are buying the white supremacy he is selling and will nominate him for president. Where do you think I was born and spent the first 23 years of my life? California. That you were ignorant of Jewish surnames, etc., has nothing to do with being from the West Coast. The public schools I attended in Los Angeles were overwhelmingly Jewish - just ask oh yvonne , we went to the same jr. high, before she moved to another neighborhood, but still with plenty of Jews. Not beheading people doesn’t make this a safe haven. I can’t believe that I have to have this conversation with you. If it comes down to what you will embrace spending funding on, well, I guess that is your bottom line. That doesn’t make a country that is currently glorifying anti-semites as “patriots” or amazing athletes or talented musicians a welcoming place. Please don’t dictate my reality, because you really truly have no. clue. what it is to be Jewish here. If I tried to tell you how Latinx people should feel, I would hope that you would shut me down, because it would be beyond offensive. I'm sorry Elaine - truly sorry. I am truly open to any and all solutions. I'm just waiting - I hope you know many of us are truly horrified with what is happening. I grew up in the Bay Area and you can dismiss my reality - but what does it help? I am not pretending to understand the Jewish experience - I am just trying to find an end to to the horror that has been the reality of my entire adulthood. I have been trying to figure out what this means. I went to college in the Bay Area. I owned my first home in the Bay Area. My sister went to college and law school in the Bay Area. One of my cousins (born in L.A.) went to college in the Bay Area. I never met anyone ignorant regarding Jews and their culture, and surnames, in the Bay Area. Your reality is certainly your reality, I will not dismiss it, but regarding knowledge of Jewish issues it was/is not typical of the Bay Area as a whole. You may want to ask yourself why. Or not. I honestly don’t care. As to why you are somehow keep bringing up the past 40 years for Israel, that, I have no clue. Israel was founded 75 years ago in 1948. I grew up knowing that, even though I am 60. I remain flummoxed as to why you think offering Israeli Jews $ to come here is culturally appropriate, defensible, and doesn’t play into all the antisemitic tropes ever created in the history of time related to Jews and money.
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Oct 12, 2023 2:08:26 GMT
That is what I'm suggesting, but am open to any and all suggestions that will end the violence. We send billions every year and there has never been stability. Can we better support those who escaped/survived the violence of WWII and their descendants? We basically threw those who had been victimized and oppressed into an area of conflict with little more than the promise of weaponry to support them. How does this end - honestly how does this end? “We” did not “throw” Holocaust survivors into an area of conflict. Eastern European Jews had been working on legally re-establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine for decades by 1948. They bought and paid for every bit of land they acquired from Arab owners. (ETA Holocaust survivors were desperate to reach Palestine. No one was dumped there.) After independence, the Palestinians were invited to stay and work with the Jews but most chose not to. The remaining Arab countries refused to take any of them in or lift a finger to help them. So we ended up with a permanently homeless class of Palestinians. And this is the result. Israelis do not want to move to the U.S. They want to stay in Israel and defend their homeland. WHAT?! NO. Just no. One place in which you are right is that they weren't dumped there. In fact, after hundreds of thousands were relocated, and Palestinians asked Britain to make good on their promise, an immigration method of sorts was implemented. Yet Jews continued to arrive, skirting the immigration process, so much so, that the Brits were intercepting boats of them. But let's not think that an area that was under British occupancy, and gifted to the King of Jordan wasn't an area of unrest. It took 30,000 British soldiers to shore up their little relo plan. They bought and paid for every bit of land? No. They didn't in the 20, 30's or 40's, nor have they in the last 70 years. By 1948 700,000 Palestinians (a full half of the population) fled their homes in West Bank due to Zionist militias. During Nakba, between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed, wells were poisoned in a biological warfare program and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning. Militias do not properly purchase land. Geeze. Annexation and settlement is still going on right this very moment, unpaid. What a ridiculous thing to say. In fact, in settled areas, the Israeli military (who should have ZERO influence or power in the area) is determining what is and isn't permitted housing and razing it. You can sanitize it all you want, but the Israelis are a militant organization headed by Netanyahu they want only one thing. TRANSFER. Mass expulsion of Palestinians out of West Bank. This was denounced by the UN in 2014. Despite the UN's promise of return, Israel passed laws making it illegal for Palestinians to return to their homes. THIS is what caused a "permanent" class of homeless Palestinians. At least Rabin and Arafat and Clinton tried. You can "antisemitic" finger point at me all you want. Quote my posts and accuse me. I really don't care. But get the history right. Netanyahu's Likud Party, the party ANTI-PEACE, created the sentiment that got Rabin killed by a Israeli extremist. He has made policy over the last 20 years specifically to terrorize the Palestinian people and expel them, with the sickening endorsement of the UN/US. BTW.... Speaking out and telling the truth about ISRAEL isn't antisemitic. You've just been fed that line. Israel doesn't have personhood or a religion. And NOTHING I've said is about Jews in particular. I'm actually realize that it's the everyday people trapped in the war and conflict that governments create with their meddling who pay the price. Jews, Muslims and Christians alike. Go ahead and quote me- AGAIN. I WANT people to remember what I've written. Maybe you'll learn something, too.
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Post by roundtwo on Oct 12, 2023 2:41:58 GMT
the Israelis are a militant organization headed by Netanyahu they want only one thing. TRANSFER. Mass expulsion of Palestinians out of West Bank. I think you have mixed up your nations/people in your post. Israel has been trying for a two state solution for decades. Hamas has very clearly stated that their goal is to eliminate the Jews not only in the middle east but around the world. This is the latest call from a Hamas leader "A leader and founding member of Hamas, Khalid Mashal, reportedly called for a global Jihad on Tuesday, asking Muslims around the world to target the people of Israel on Friday, Oct. 13." Source: American Military News Also here: News.com.au
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