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Post by elaine on Oct 12, 2023 2:45:14 GMT
I'm trying to do a lot of listening on this because I am embarrassingly uninformed on the long history between Israel and Palestine. I appreciate Elaine for sharing during what must be a very painful and scary time. It's not your job to do to educate us on this subject, but when you share, I appreciate it. I unfollowed a few left-leaning social media accounts because they refuse to condemn Hamas. Black Lives Matter went as far as to release a statement saying Hamas terror attack was "a desperate act of self defense." WTF?! What the actual f@ck! There is NEVER a reason to rape women, kill and decapitate innocent children and elderly people. And their reason was to say they are marginalized like Palestinians. Well I am Latina, also a marginalized group and I sure as hell will never support terrorists. You can have sympathy for the innocent people in Palestine who are caught in the middle and still condemn Hamas and the terrorist acts that they committed. And you can still dislike a government, but still show compassion and support for the people of Israel. I just don't understand how anyone can take the side of Hamas without being antisemites themselves. Sadly, there is a long history of antisemitism in the Black communities of the USA. Like with what is going on in Israel, a lot of it was stoked by those with political agendas like Louis Farrakhan, who wanted to ignite and keep strong an antisemitic bias in their bases. Here is an op ed piece - OP ED (not research journalism) - that was written by a Black man and came out in the wake of the NBA antisemitic comments being made by star players: www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/mike-freeman/2022/11/02/black-athletes-community-blind-spot-antisemitism/10652472002/ Since it is an Op Ed, take of it what you will. I have no doubt that there are plenty of op eds that defend DeSean & Stephen Jackson, Kyrie and Kanye. But know that the expressed animosity from Black leaders like Farrakhan are well known to Jews in this country and have been for decades. Again, why would Jews find the USA as a safe haven?
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pantsonfire
Pearl Clutcher
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 4,762
Jun 19, 2022 16:48:04 GMT
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Post by pantsonfire on Oct 12, 2023 2:51:07 GMT
the Israelis are a militant organization headed by Netanyahu they want only one thing. TRANSFER. Mass expulsion of Palestinians out of West Bank. I think you have mixed up your nations/people in your post. Israel has been trying for a two state solution for decades. Hamas has very clearly stated that their goal is to eliminate the Jews not only in the middle east but around the world. This is the latest call from a Hamas leader "A leader and founding member of Hamas, Khalid Mashal, reportedly called for a global Jihad on Tuesday, asking Muslims around the world to target the people of Israel on Friday, Oct. 13." Source: American Military News Also here: News.com.au I just saw a post about this on Twitter. And it makes me even more nervous for my friends and those around the world. A local school district posted that they are aware of this threat and have beefed up security.
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Post by roundtwo on Oct 12, 2023 2:53:44 GMT
I just saw a post about this on Twitter. And it makes me even more nervous for my friends and those around the world. A local school district posted that they are aware of this threat and have beefed up security. Most security forces are taking it very seriously from what I have read in various places, thankfully. After the horrendous celebrations by Hamas supporters, I think it is definitely very possible some of these people will follow his call.
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Oct 12, 2023 3:00:10 GMT
the Israelis are a militant organization headed by Netanyahu they want only one thing. TRANSFER. Mass expulsion of Palestinians out of West Bank. I think you have mixed up your nations/people in your post. Israel has been trying for a two state solution for decades. Hamas has very clearly stated that their goal is to eliminate the Jews not only in the middle east but around the world. This is the latest call from a Hamas leader "A leader and founding member of Hamas, Khalid Mashal, reportedly called for a global Jihad on Tuesday, asking Muslims around the world to target the people of Israel on Friday, Oct. 13." Source: American Military News Also here: News.com.au I appreciate your post. I promise you. I haven't mixed anyone up. Portions of this were actually my doctoral dissertation. I was in the US Army at the time Rabin was assassinated, and couldn't understand why we were supporting a nation that couldn't defend itself so fiercely. I learned.... alot. I also invite you to read more than a couple years history. Hamas is a relatively new terroristic group. Israel essentially stopped trying for a two state solution after the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin in 1995. Rabin/Arafat were likely the last chance at doing so, and that scab has been picked at by essentially 20 years of Netanyahu. That possibility is accepted as likely past. Rabin was killed at a pro-peace rally, because it is/was and ultra-Orthodox view by a law student (and a bunch of folks afterwards....) that following the Oslo Accords as negotiated by Israeli Prime Minister Rabin, Palestine's Arafat, and our President Clinton was literally covered in the Torah as punishable by death. Before anyone comes at me==================== this was the interpretation pushed by at least 3 influential Rabbi's. And oddly, after a PM's assassination, became an accepted view. That turning over land (which was promised to Palestine many times......) to Palestine was a direct affront to Judaism, since many of these lands are holy to Muslims, Jews, and Christians. They aren't going to hand it over. Period. So- the take away is that Israel, as it is, will NEVER ever recognize any form of sovereignty for the Palestinians, one state (which actually is the newest trope, since it's thought the conflict is too far gone), two state, or Palestinians locked in a cage. Even locked in a cage, they are far too much trouble. Also, Khalid Mashal- fun fact. He was poisoned by Israel while he was in Jordan in 1997, and the antidote to save his life was brokered by the US asking for it. Please don't conflate Hamas with any historical Palestinian history. Also, Hamas was elected in Gaza in 2006 (but never represented West Bank...) in 2006. Desperate people and all that. Hamas won't allow another election, because they know they are denounced by most Palestinians. Hamas is an extremist group. They are not the elected (they were in 2006... but overstayed their welcome... based on violence) or supported leaders of Palestine. This is a prime example of how old this history is (and it goes back wayyyy before British occupation) and how we only think of the last few years when determining who is the victim in the newest atrocity.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 12, 2023 3:23:40 GMT
There seems to be a lot of incomplete history telling going on in this thread tonight. I don’t claim to be an expert, but I have listened to several podcasts while driving many hours for work this week. What I have learned is basically what blitzgurl is saying. I would recommend everyone listen to this episode by NPR. It talks about the history of Palestine, Israel, laws that Israel put into place to marginalize Palestinians with the intention of either keeping them poor and under their control or make them leave so that Israel can have a Jewish majority. I also listened to an episode yesterday that quoted various Israeli leaders over the years and their statements about a Jewish majority and how to get that, as well as how they acquired the land by changing laws to make it advantageous to them. In the NPR episode the author that they were interviewing had some good suggestions on how to improve relations between Israeli’s and Palestinians. This episode was done in 2021 when there was a war due to Israel taking more land and starting settlements. So the recent events are not discussed. Obviously neutralizing Hamas is one major thing that needs to happen. But there also needs to be a shift in how the world handles Each group. That includes not ignoring the human rights abuses and apartheid that Israel is enacting. I’m not sure how it got to be that saying anything critical about Israel means that someone is anti-Semitic so therefore people let them do what they want without any consequence. But that needs to change. Israel has a government that makes choices, laws and policies just like every other country. They are not beyond reproach. And holding them accountable does not mean that everyone hates Jewish people. Hamas and Palestinians also need to be held accountable for their part. But things are not going to change until and unless the true history of both sides is recognized. Palestinians have been marginalized in every way. They have not had the same access or opportunities as Israelis, in addition to oftentimes being forced from their homes. Heck, right now they don’t even have water, food, or electricity. I can see this turning into a much bigger regional war if that continues. I can understand why Israel is angry (I am as well) but I don’t think how they are responding is helpful and I’m not ok with continuing to give them free reign to do whatever they want in retaliation. podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/throughline/id1451109634?i=1000523361687
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 12, 2023 13:14:33 GMT
Hold the Arab countries surrounding Israel, who confiscated all the lands and property of Jews who were forced to leave with the creation of Israel, responsible for helping the Palestinians. Shine the light on the fact that those surrounding countries don’t offer real support, beyond bombing Israel, with the assets they seized, instead, choosing to keep the Palestinians in poverty and without the infrastructure that would allow for the Palestinians’ independence for those countries’ own political agendas. Instead of relying on Israel to provide electricity, water, etc., maybe use their funds and influence to help the Palestinians actually build their own infrastructure - they have had 75 years to do so. It certainly wasn't cool that the US appropriated the resources and land from the Native Americans, either, or any other time in human history a dominant people robbed, stole, tortured and erased a people and their history. Also very not cool that Israel is literally doing exactly that as we speak. Palestinians in Gaza literally cannot leave without Israeli permission, and have been rounded up, and stuffed in an over crowded, squalid fenced in area surrounded by military occupiers with no prospects, limited resources, constant violence and stripped of human dignity.... OH WAIT! That has happened before! AND we fund it, we support it, we provide them with weapons... So much for know better do better. Gaza and West Bank have been under Israeli occupation and settlement on and off for decades. Mostly on. This is literally unlawful per international law, as is the continual annexation of Palestinian land and settlement. There is no way for anything or anyone to move in and out of either Gaza or West Bank, other than through Israeli controlled lands and corruption. It is hardly any wonder that Arab nations have not assisted with infrastructure. (Not to assume that they would if these nonstarters weren't in place.) Perhaps if Israelis would gtfo of land they aren't supposed to be in, they may no longer need to provide these things-------- when it suits them. When you take people prisoner, you have to feed them, give them water etc. But then again, that's just another pesky international law that Israel is allowed to flagrantly ignore------- and yet we are literally going to send this nuclear weapons holding (according to SIPRI- although Israel has never actually confirmed or denied) human rights denying, military occupying country YET MORE military aid. Who is keeping the Palestinians in poverty? It is laughable that you are faulting the Arab countries that are (thankfully!) choosing not to seriously attack Israel, a coddled bully propped up by the UN/US, despite their multiple human rights and international law violations, which literally surrounds what little scraps of land Palestine is supposed to be "allowed" to call theirs. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to convey more clearly - I am not faulting other countries for not attacking Israel - I was faulting countries for not accepting immigrants from Palestine. Perhaps it's naive, but I do think many of the people would have preferred to find a new life in Egypt or Iran vs the utter poverty of the West Bank or Gaza
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 12, 2023 13:26:52 GMT
I'm sorry Elaine - truly sorry. I am truly open to any and all solutions. I'm just waiting - I hope you know many of us are truly horrified with what is happening. I grew up in the Bay Area and you can dismiss my reality - but what does it help? I am not pretending to understand the Jewish experience - I am just trying to find an end to to the horror that has been the reality of my entire adulthood. I have been trying to figure out what this means. I went to college in the Bay Area. I owned my first home in the Bay Area. My sister went to college and law school in the Bay Area. One of my cousins (born in L.A.) went to college in the Bay Area. I never met anyone ignorant regarding Jews and their culture, and surnames, in the Bay Area. Your reality is certainly your reality, I will not dismiss it, but regarding knowledge of Jewish issues it was/is not typical of the Bay Area as a whole. You may want to ask yourself why. Or not. I honestly don’t care. As to why you are somehow keep bringing up the past 40 years for Israel, that, I have no clue. Israel was founded 75 years ago in 1948. I grew up knowing that, even though I am 60. I remain flummoxed as to why you think offering Israeli Jews $ to come here is culturally appropriate, defensible, and doesn’t play into all the antisemitic tropes ever created in the history of time related to Jews and money. I truly hope that you understand that I started with knowing that I DON'T understand. I truly know that and it was why I acknowledged my own reality of not understanding. A previous poster said no one has an obligation to educate and that's certainly true - I am only entering this discussion as I'm utterly disgusted with what is going on and honestly want to find a solution. I did not grow up with anti-semitism - I just didn't - and it wasn't because I lived in some tolerant open society. We had race riots - we had gangs - it was a fucking awful place to be - but I honestly never knew people had preconceived ideas or bias against Jews. I was honestly confused and disgusted in learning our role in denying immigration during WWII and the utter antisemitism in the government and society and how it fed inaction during the holocaust. I just didn't know. I clearly don't have answers - I just want to stop thinking if we throw weapons and money at Israel we're helping - not because I don't support Israel - I DO - I just want to find a real long term solution. I am truly sorry if anyone thinks I was dismissing or failing to acknowledge antisemitism in the US - I'm really not.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 12, 2023 13:48:18 GMT
Every one needs to think long and hard about the 2024 election. During a Thursday morning appearance on MSNBC's "Morning Joe," former Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-MO) called out Donald Trump for praising the manner in which terrorist group Hezbollah even as Israel reeled from the Hamas assault. *** "Donald Trump and his followers have hollowed out the Republican Party," she elaborated. "Typically the Republican Party would be first in line to say, 'put everything else aside, we've got to support our friends who support freedom and democracy.' But you've got many of them now praising thugs and dictators and Putin and Hezbollah, and it's beyond shocking -- it's disgusting."www.rawstory.com/trump-hezbollah/
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Bridget in MD
Drama Llama
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 12, 2023 14:04:00 GMT
I bolded. The last pragmatic Israeli PM that wanted to work towards peace, was PM Rabin. He was trying to follow the terms of Oslo, and was assassinated by a Jewish person that was deeply unhappy that there was a plan to "hand over" West Bank. There is no way this area will ever be stable while the world props up Israel and strokes their ideologue romantic belief that these are the Promised Lands and are their birthright. The reality is that Israel was (and is) blatantly occupying Palestinian land (the shrunken version) in direct violation of international law since they stole that land in 1967 (again.) The displaced people without their land, their rights, their safety, passports, or any semblance of stability or ability to make a better life for themselves are the Palestinians. The ones whose homes in East Jerusalem and beyond have been being demolished for generations under the Israeli military occupation. Occupation that has, during this whole time, been rife with human rights violations and violence. Yet, the world turns a blind eye over shared guilty conscience. Over a hundred years ago, Balfour stated the intent that the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people would not do anything to prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." I think we can all agree, that was a lie. In 1948, the Palestinian's were promised the right of return by the UN. A two-state solution. None of that has come to fruition, while the rest of the world subscribes to "Arabs are essentially terrible people that love violence." Ironically, the protests, crime and violence we are seeing in "marginalized people" here in the US are justified response for serious systemic subtle and not so subtle othering. What is happening in Palestine is not suble- it is egregious, debilitating, and yet, when people whose only hope is a 75 year old promise by a world that has only repeatedly lied to them is a promised return to their (actual) homeland lash out and at one time put their trust in a disgusting organization, Hamas, they are vilified forever more. Hamas won't allow elections, because the vast majority of their "constituents" don't follow their extreme beliefs. I do agree the lack of humanity in this whole miserably failed "experiment" is sad. I don't know how it is humane to keep over two million people in squalid conditions, and force them to remain that way for over 70 years. I also find it paradoxical that the world has such a guilty conscience over the attempted genocide of the Jews in Europe, that we turn a blind eye to the blatant persecution of the Palestinian people that made up 80% of the population of Palestine in 1948 when Balfour decided to truly make the land which was Palestine into a Promised Land. But that was a promise made of MEN. Not God. Perhaps have the Israelis leave the Palestinian land that they are occupying and go to Israel? Stop the blockades? Perhaps act as though they are by and large the direct descendants of people who fled the atrocity of genocide and not inflict it on the Palestinian PEOPLE. You'd think they'd know better. Perhaps the US and UN can stop sending BILLIONS in "aid" to a nuclear superpower that use their "surgical precision" weapons to destroy media buildings, multi family homes, hospitals and schools? Perhaps we could bring ourselves to actually acknowledge the apartheid that the Israelis are perpetrating and demand they do better? Meanwhile, we could also condemn the killing of many Palestinian children that just seems to keep happening? Condemn raiding holy sites and attacking people in mosques? Obviously, the acts of Hamas are awful in their own right and should be universally condemned by the world. The actual humanity of the Palestinian people is being conflated with Hamas and they are not the same. It certainly wasn't cool that the US appropriated the resources and land from the Native Americans, either, or any other time in human history a dominant people robbed, stole, tortured and erased a people and their history. Also very not cool that Israel is literally doing exactly that as we speak. Palestinians in Gaza literally cannot leave without Israeli permission, and have been rounded up, and stuffed in an over crowded, squalid fenced in area surrounded by military occupiers with no prospects, limited resources, constant violence and stripped of human dignity.... OH WAIT! That has happened before! AND we fund it, we support it, we provide them with weapons... So much for know better do better. Gaza and West Bank have been under Israeli occupation and settlement on and off for decades. Mostly on. This is literally unlawful per international law, as is the continual annexation of Palestinian land and settlement. There is no way for anything or anyone to move in and out of either Gaza or West Bank, other than through Israeli controlled lands and corruption. It is hardly any wonder that Arab nations have not assisted with infrastructure. (Not to assume that they would if these nonstarters weren't in place.) Perhaps if Israelis would gtfo of land they aren't supposed to be in, they may no longer need to provide these things-------- when it suits them. When you take people prisoner, you have to feed them, give them water etc. But then again, that's just another pesky international law that Israel is allowed to flagrantly ignore------- and yet we are literally going to send this nuclear weapons holding (according to SIPRI- although Israel has never actually confirmed or denied) human rights denying, military occupying country YET MORE military aid. Who is keeping the Palestinians in poverty? It is laughable that you are faulting the Arab countries that are (thankfully!) choosing not to seriously attack Israel, a coddled bully propped up by the UN/US, despite their multiple human rights and international law violations, which literally surrounds what little scraps of land Palestine is supposed to be "allowed" to call theirs. Thank you for making your views on this subject very, very clear. I doubt any of us will be able to forget this anti-semitic vomit you chose to share.I honestly and sincerely did not take this comment as anti-semetic, but rather presenting the other side, the one I feel we rarely hear about or consider, the side of the Palestines. I woefully, barely understand the conflict, but from what I read and form my own thoughts through, the Israeli govt is not all peaceful and innocent. And Hamas is NOT Palestine - they are a terrorist org that everyone seems to associate with Palestine. I also do not think offering Jewish people $100K ad citizenship in the US is the answer - just seeing how people throw up the swatzika and are pro-Nazis out in the open in Florida (and other places, but recently I have seen videos from FL) makes me sick. Free speech and all? Bullshit. It's hate speech! All the attacks on synagagues Jewish businesses - I do NOT understand the hate! People came to the US from all over to start a new life, religious freedoms, etc, but there are times I seriously wonder, was it only meant for Christians? Because the US does not seem to embrace all walks of life anymore
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Bridget in MD
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,054
Member is Online
Jun 25, 2014 20:40:00 GMT
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Post by Bridget in MD on Oct 12, 2023 14:06:23 GMT
There seems to be a lot of incomplete history telling going on in this thread tonight. I don’t claim to be an expert, but I have listened to several podcasts while driving many hours for work this week. What I have learned is basically what blitzgurl is saying. I would recommend everyone listen to this episode by NPR. It talks about the history of Palestine, Israel, laws that Israel put into place to marginalize Palestinians with the intention of either keeping them poor and under their control or make them leave so that Israel can have a Jewish majority. I also listened to an episode yesterday that quoted various Israeli leaders over the years and their statements about a Jewish majority and how to get that, as well as how they acquired the land by changing laws to make it advantageous to them. In the NPR episode the author that they were interviewing had some good suggestions on how to improve relations between Israeli’s and Palestinians. This episode was done in 2021 when there was a war due to Israel taking more land and starting settlements. So the recent events are not discussed. Obviously neutralizing Hamas is one major thing that needs to happen. But there also needs to be a shift in how the world handles Each group. That includes not ignoring the human rights abuses and apartheid that Israel is enacting. I’m not sure how it got to be that saying anything critical about Israel means that someone is anti-Semitic so therefore people let them do what they want without any consequence. But that needs to change. Israel has a government that makes choices, laws and policies just like every other country. They are not beyond reproach. And holding them accountable does not mean that everyone hates Jewish people. Hamas and Palestinians also need to be held accountable for their part. But things are not going to change until and unless the true history of both sides is recognized. Palestinians have been marginalized in every way. They have not had the same access or opportunities as Israelis, in addition to oftentimes being forced from their homes. Heck, right now they don’t even have water, food, or electricity. I can see this turning into a much bigger regional war if that continues. I can understand why Israel is angry (I am as well) but I don’t think how they are responding is helpful and I’m not ok with continuing to give them free reign to do whatever they want in retaliation. podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/throughline/id1451109634?i=1000523361687Thank you iamkristinl16, you said what I was thinking, and I also am no expert at all.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 12, 2023 14:12:25 GMT
And I just want to say, I'm truly sorry if anyone thought my $100K and US citizenship was insulting or failing to recognize our own issues - I KNOW we are no utopia. I posted literally a few hours after talking to someone who was bringing 7 family members to the US for their safety. It was an idle thought of damn, would it be better to offer a different path instead of more weaponry. I acknowledge the naivete.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 12, 2023 14:15:18 GMT
Every one needs to think long and hard about the 2024 election. During a Thursday morning appearance on MSNBC's "Morning Joe," former Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-MO) called out Donald Trump for praising the manner in which terrorist group Hezbollah even as Israel reeled from the Hamas assault. *** "Donald Trump and his followers have hollowed out the Republican Party," she elaborated. "Typically the Republican Party would be first in line to say, 'put everything else aside, we've got to support our friends who support freedom and democracy.' But you've got many of them now praising thugs and dictators and Putin and Hezbollah, and it's beyond shocking -- it's disgusting."www.rawstory.com/trump-hezbollah/No one who still supports Trump cares - I mean seriously -he showed who he is and there's no veil of deniability about who and what he is.
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Post by dewryce on Oct 12, 2023 14:25:11 GMT
I have been trying to figure out what this means. I went to college in the Bay Area. I owned my first home in the Bay Area. My sister went to college and law school in the Bay Area. One of my cousins (born in L.A.) went to college in the Bay Area. I never met anyone ignorant regarding Jews and their culture, and surnames, in the Bay Area. Your reality is certainly your reality, I will not dismiss it, but regarding knowledge of Jewish issues it was/is not typical of the Bay Area as a whole. You may want to ask yourself why. Or not. I honestly don’t care. As to why you are somehow keep bringing up the past 40 years for Israel, that, I have no clue. Israel was founded 75 years ago in 1948. I grew up knowing that, even though I am 60. I remain flummoxed as to why you think offering Israeli Jews $ to come here is culturally appropriate, defensible, and doesn’t play into all the antisemitic tropes ever created in the history of time related to Jews and money. I truly hope that you understand that I started with knowing that I DON'T understand. I truly know that and it was why I acknowledged my own reality of not understanding. A previous poster said no one has an obligation to educate and that's certainly true - I am only entering this discussion as I'm utterly disgusted with what is going on and honestly want to find a solution. I did not grow up with anti-semitism - I just didn't - and it wasn't because I lived in some tolerant open society. We had race riots - we had gangs - it was a fucking awful place to be - but I honestly never knew people had preconceived ideas or bias against Jews. I was honestly confused and disgusted in learning our role in denying immigration during WWII and the utter antisemitism in the government and society and how it fed inaction during the holocaust. I just didn't know. I clearly don't have answers - I just want to stop thinking if we throw weapons and money at Israel we're helping - not because I don't support Israel - I DO - I just want to find a real long term solution. I am truly sorry if anyone thinks I was dismissing or failing to acknowledge antisemitism in the US - I'm really not. I’ll be honest and say that I did not either. At least, I did not grow up being aware of the current anti-semetism, if only because I had little to no exposure to the Jewish community. That’s not to say it didn’t exist in my area because I am certain it did, but I did not know of a single Jewish person, and my family and peers didn’t make derogatory statements about them that I understood to be antisemitic. Thinking back my guess is that they were made but that I didn’t understand the reference. I can see how this is a huge issue now, but I think it’s because they weren’t a topic of conversation; because there were certainly prejudiced people in my life as I clearly remember some disgusting statements that were made even back then. Now of course I realize that the absence of exposure to a whole people, their culture, and especially the current issues they were facing was disturbing, it feels gross and almost like erasure. I went to school in a small suburb outside of Austin and seeing what’s been exposed about schoolbooks whitewashing history in states like Texas it wouldn’t at all surprise me if my education about the Jewish plight wasn’t entirely accurate or complete either.
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,003
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Oct 12, 2023 14:42:26 GMT
I have been trying to figure out what this means. I went to college in the Bay Area. I owned my first home in the Bay Area. My sister went to college and law school in the Bay Area. One of my cousins (born in L.A.) went to college in the Bay Area. I never met anyone ignorant regarding Jews and their culture, and surnames, in the Bay Area. Your reality is certainly your reality, I will not dismiss it, but regarding knowledge of Jewish issues it was/is not typical of the Bay Area as a whole. You may want to ask yourself why. Or not. I honestly don’t care. As to why you are somehow keep bringing up the past 40 years for Israel, that, I have no clue. Israel was founded 75 years ago in 1948. I grew up knowing that, even though I am 60. I remain flummoxed as to why you think offering Israeli Jews $ to come here is culturally appropriate, defensible, and doesn’t play into all the antisemitic tropes ever created in the history of time related to Jews and money. I truly hope that you understand that I started with knowing that I DON'T understand. I truly know that and it was why I acknowledged my own reality of not understanding. A previous poster said no one has an obligation to educate and that's certainly true - I am only entering this discussion as I'm utterly disgusted with what is going on and honestly want to find a solution. I did not grow up with anti-semitism - I just didn't - and it wasn't because I lived in some tolerant open society. We had race riots - we had gangs - it was a fucking awful place to be - but I honestly never knew people had preconceived ideas or bias against Jews. I was honestly confused and disgusted in learning our role in denying immigration during WWII and the utter antisemitism in the government and society and how it fed inaction during the holocaust. I just didn't know. I clearly don't have answers - I just want to stop thinking if we throw weapons and money at Israel we're helping - not because I don't support Israel - I DO - I just want to find a real long term solution. I am truly sorry if anyone thinks I was dismissing or failing to acknowledge antisemitism in the US - I'm really not. In Darcy's defense, there are many communities here in California that there are not many Jewish people living in and Darcy's experience is not unique. I grew up in East LA and up until I was bussed into the community Elaine was from my only knowledge of the Jewish culture came from Hollywood movies like The Ten Commandments. I remember my first week at that new school they read off the menu for morning recess and they said bagels were available. I turned to a kid sitting next to me and asked "what's a bagel?". Half the class turned and looked at me as if I grew another head. I had no clue what a bagel was, there were no such things as bagel shops in East LA. I loved that school and soon I was immersed in the culture, curious as to why school was out for Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah. We eventually relocated to a coastal farming town that was predominantly Hispanic and Anglo. Drastic, big change in culture for me again. No more bagel or talk of Hebrew school. The conversation changed to which beach ditch day was going to be at. Now the community I've lived in and brought up my family in is again predominantly Jewish and my girls grew up going to many more Bar and Bat mitzvahs than Quinceneras. We've been honored guests as Passover meals with friends. I feel blessed to have been exposed to so many different cultures growing up. Never ever though, have I seen or heard of any anti-Semitism until more recent times, and all of it on the news happening somewhere else. Not everyone's experience is the same and it's not 'wrong', its just the way it is. It is up to us to listen and be mindful and learn from others and to teach our children. I'm so nervous and scared about what is happening now and I just want to hug everyone. I so wish women could just overthrow the men everywhere and let us run things. What a world that could be.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 12, 2023 16:35:54 GMT
Biden calls out TFG
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Post by monklady123 on Oct 12, 2023 17:05:39 GMT
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 12, 2023 17:15:15 GMT
He is either totally embarrassing himself with his stupidity or attempting to prove he is mentally gone to avoid prison.
Either way he IS aware!!
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pilcas
Pearl Clutcher
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Aug 14, 2015 21:47:17 GMT
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Post by pilcas on Oct 12, 2023 17:28:08 GMT
I really dislike and find it offensive when any criticism of the State of Israel is immediately labeled anti-semitism. Are they exempt from criticism? Is criticizing our own government Anti-American? What Hammas did was an act if terrorism against innocent victims. That doesn’t mean that Israel has clean hands in this whole situation.
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,003
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Oct 12, 2023 17:29:40 GMT
THANK GOODNESS Biden is FINALLY calling out TFG, sheesh! About freaking time! More of this, please Mr. President. Please!!
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 12, 2023 17:42:36 GMT
I condemn Hamas for the brutalities they have inflicted on the Jews, the cruel kidnapping of women, children and the elderly, the slaughter of civilians, as well as understand the desire for retribution for the massacre of their innocents. These were barbaric, unjustified and unconscionable acts. For Hamas, nothing less than the complete eradication of Jews is acceptable. From the Holocaust to the rejection by the world of Jews en masse, who could blame the Jews for wanting a nation of their own? Who could blame them for fighting wars for their own security?
At the same time I can have empathy for Palestinians who have suffered for decades under Israel’s rule, the dispossession of their lands, the occupation and blockade, who have also lost thousands of lives from extrajudicial killings, and who to this day have neither equal rights nor a state of their own. The present fascist government of Israel has ministers who have declared that Palestinians are an “invention” and that their villages should be wiped out. These, too, are inhumane.
There is nothing morally ambiguous in acknowledging these. We know what’s right and what’s wrong, and recognizing that both ethnic groups do NOT have clean hands is not anti-Semitism.
When people have been subjugated for so long, there inevitably comes a time when desperation will lead them to irrational choices. Although Hamas does not have the support of all Palestinians, there is enough support of them because Palestinians continue to be subjugated, denied rights and portions of the lands that belonged to them for centuries. They've also seen the impotence of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. In the meantime, “normalization” pacts are being decided as if the Palestinian problem can just be swept under the rug. I am not attempting to justify the terrorism and barbarism of Hamas; I am stating facts.
The hostilities from both sides are deeply embedded in a very, very long history of pain, sorrow, and violence made possible by Western powers that had no foresight, all the way back to WWI when they were planning the divisions of the Middle Eastern countries due to the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. Promises were made to both Jews and Arabs, and it’s this double-dealing that laid the foundation for a war that never ends.
Gaza is now being leveled and forcing Palestinians to flee. Where to? As grieving Israelis are once again burying their loved ones or praying that the hostages remain alive and are freed, already-impoverished Palestinians are also grieving their dead, helpless in the midst of a humanitarian crisis larger than they have endured for sixteen years.
Bibi’s gov’t has ordered the cease of resources to Gaza. Food is running out, there’s no water, no fuel, no electricity, resources that Israel had been doling out only in dribs and drabs to Gaza before this war, and nowhere to escape to while the bombardment continues. The only certainty is that thousands, if not more, will continue to die.
What Hamas did to Israelis are war crimes. What Israel is doing to Gazans right now is also a war crime. How many more generations of both groups should suffer? Until ALL parties agree to a two-state solution, and commit to that goal, there will never be an end to the atrocities from both sides.
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scrappinmama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,884
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Oct 12, 2023 17:47:32 GMT
I truly hope that you understand that I started with knowing that I DON'T understand. I truly know that and it was why I acknowledged my own reality of not understanding. A previous poster said no one has an obligation to educate and that's certainly true - I am only entering this discussion as I'm utterly disgusted with what is going on and honestly want to find a solution. I did not grow up with anti-semitism - I just didn't - and it wasn't because I lived in some tolerant open society. We had race riots - we had gangs - it was a fucking awful place to be - but I honestly never knew people had preconceived ideas or bias against Jews. I was honestly confused and disgusted in learning our role in denying immigration during WWII and the utter antisemitism in the government and society and how it fed inaction during the holocaust. I just didn't know. I clearly don't have answers - I just want to stop thinking if we throw weapons and money at Israel we're helping - not because I don't support Israel - I DO - I just want to find a real long term solution. I am truly sorry if anyone thinks I was dismissing or failing to acknowledge antisemitism in the US - I'm really not. In Darcy's defense, there are many communities here in California that there are not many Jewish people living in and Darcy's experience is not unique. I grew up in East LA and up until I was bussed into the community Elaine was from my only knowledge of the Jewish culture came from Hollywood movies like The Ten Commandments. I remember my first week at that new school they read off the menu for morning recess and they said bagels were available. I turned to a kid sitting next to me and asked "what's a bagel?". Half the class turned and looked at me as if I grew another head. I had no clue what a bagel was, there were no such things as bagel shops in East LA. I loved that school and soon I was immersed in the culture, curious as to why school was out for Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah. We eventually relocated to a coastal farming town that was predominantly Hispanic and Anglo. Drastic, big change in culture for me again. No more bagel or talk of Hebrew school. The conversation changed to which beach ditch day was going to be at. Now the community I've lived in and brought up my family in is again predominantly Jewish and my girls grew up going to many more Bar and Bat mitzvahs than Quinceneras. We've been honored guests as Passover meals with friends. I feel blessed to have been exposed to so many different cultures growing up. Never ever though, have I seen or heard of any anti-Semitism until more recent times, and all of it on the news happening somewhere else. Not everyone's experience is the same and it's not 'wrong', its just the way it is. It is up to us to listen and be mindful and learn from others and to teach our children. I'm so nervous and scared about what is happening now and I just want to hug everyone. I so wish women could just overthrow the men everywhere and let us run things. What a world that could be. Hey my husband and I are from the same part of LA as you were! We both started our college paths at East LA College! The first time I had awareness of what it meant to be Jewish was when we visited the Simon Wieshenthal Center as part of an elementary school field trip. Before walking into the museum, we were greeted by a holocaust survivor. Talk about a powerful moment! I wish every kid an opportunity to do that. The world would be a better place if we tried to learn from each other, make peace with the pain caused by previous generations and truly try to heal from them. But that can't happen when there are a group of people who want nothing more to wipe an ethnic group off the face of the earth. We're living in such dark times. I don't know how we move on. Another thing that I want to say is that you absolutely can be against some of the policies that Israel has without be antisemitic. I do not like a lot of the policies we have in the US, but that doesn't make me unAmerican. I care and love my country and want better for us. But if you cannot denounce the actions of Hamas, that is very telling to me. Anyway, I'm still trying to learn. And failing along the way. Thanks to everyone for sharing opinions and knowledge! We can all have different opinions and find ways to coexist.
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uksue
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,500
Location: London
Jun 25, 2014 22:33:20 GMT
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Post by uksue on Oct 12, 2023 17:54:31 GMT
I really dislike and find it offensive when any criticism of the State of Israel is immediately labeled anti-semitism. Are they exempt from criticism? Is criticizing our own government Anti-American? What Hammas did was an act if terrorism against innocent victims. That doesn’t mean that Israel has clean hands in this whole situation. I agree. The plight of Palestinians in Gaza has been on my heart a very long time,my daughter presented on this issue when completing her law degree and until then I had no idea how awful their plight is. I've seen comments elsewhere that the Palestinians in Gaza are responsible for the acts of Hamas, but the ordinary Israelis- who actually were allowed to vote for their government- are not responsible for the Acts of Netanyahu - Inc his allowing the illegal settlements on the west bank allowing more Palestinians to be displaced. Ordinary people on both sides are just sitting ducks in this situation. The lives lost on each side is currently around equal - nothing can be gained from it I don't know the answer, but I do know that treating people like dogs- herding them into an ever decreasing piece of land restricting their movements, ability to worship etc is not going to breed bonhomie.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 13, 2023 3:32:49 GMT
About 7 hours ago, Israel notified the UN they had 24 hours to evacuate all their personnel from Gaza.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 13, 2023 4:18:19 GMT
Not just UN personnel, but any Gazan north of the Wadi Gaza Nature Preserve had that 24 hours to move south. Over 1 million people. In response, Hamas told people to stay where they are, it's just propaganda.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 13, 2023 12:30:14 GMT
About 7 hours ago, Israel notified the UN they had 24 hours to evacuate all their personnel from Gaza. This warning just seems to me like a CYA for Israel. They know that the people have nowhere to go and even if they did, likely no way to get there in 24 hours since there is no fuel, water, or food. And then the statement from Hamas...I feel for the people of Gaza that are not involved with Hamas.
ETA that cnn is making a good point about Hamas telling people to stay put..partly due to military reasons so that it is easier for them to hide, but also because historically when Palestinians leave during a war Israel has not allowed them to come back. There are already a lot of refugee camps in the nearby countries due to that. As it is now they don’t have a choice but to stay in Gaza because the borders are closed.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Oct 13, 2023 19:34:37 GMT
I condemn Hamas for the brutalities they have inflicted on the Jews, the cruel kidnapping of women, children and the elderly, the slaughter of civilians, as well as understand the desire for retribution for the massacre of their innocents. These were barbaric, unjustified and unconscionable acts. For Hamas, nothing less than the complete eradication of Jews is acceptable. From the Holocaust to the rejection by the world of Jews en masse, who could blame the Jews for wanting a nation of their own? Who could blame them for fighting wars for their own security? At the same time I can have empathy for Palestinians who have suffered for decades under Israel’s rule, the dispossession of their lands, the occupation and blockade, who have also lost thousands of lives from extrajudicial killings, and who to this day have neither equal rights nor a state of their own. The present fascist government of Israel has ministers who have declared that Palestinians are an “invention” and that their villages should be wiped out. These, too, are inhumane. There is nothing morally ambiguous in acknowledging these. We know what’s right and what’s wrong, and recognizing that both ethnic groups do NOT have clean hands is not anti-Semitism. When people have been subjugated for so long, there inevitably comes a time when desperation will lead them to irrational choices. Although Hamas does not have the support of all Palestinians, there is enough support of them because Palestinians continue to be subjugated, denied rights and portions of the lands that belonged to them for centuries. They've also seen the impotence of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. In the meantime, “normalization” pacts are being decided as if the Palestinian problem can just be swept under the rug. I am not attempting to justify the terrorism and barbarism of Hamas; I am stating facts. The hostilities from both sides are deeply embedded in a very, very long history of pain, sorrow, and violence made possible by Western powers that had no foresight, all the way back to WWI when they were planning the divisions of the Middle Eastern countries due to the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. Promises were made to both Jews and Arabs, and it’s this double-dealing that laid the foundation for a war that never ends. Gaza is now being leveled and forcing Palestinians to flee. Where to? As grieving Israelis are once again burying their loved ones or praying that the hostages remain alive and are freed, already-impoverished Palestinians are also grieving their dead, helpless in the midst of a humanitarian crisis larger than they have endured for sixteen years. Bibi’s gov’t has ordered the cease of resources to Gaza. Food is running out, there’s no water, no fuel, no electricity, resources that Israel had been doling out only in dribs and drabs to Gaza before this war, and nowhere to escape to while the bombardment continues. The only certainty is that thousands, if not more, will continue to die. What Hamas did to Israelis are war crimes. What Israel is doing to Gazans right now is also a war crime. How many more generations of both groups should suffer? Until ALL parties agree to a two-state solution, and commit to that goal, there will never be an end to the atrocities from both sides. I hear you but what’s been left out is that there is another entry point, and always has been, through Egypt. Right now the Egyptian side is open, but the Palestinian one is not and it is not 100% certain if it’s been damaged by the Israelis. Gaza used to be part of Egypt but Egypt does not want the refugees. None of the Arab countries do. They feel that by taking the refugees they will weaken the Palestinian cause so all the Arab nations leave them to suffer in Gaza.
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Post by sideways on Oct 13, 2023 20:14:09 GMT
The attack by Hamas was horrible. Beyond deplorable. Full-stop, no excuses, 100% wrong. It makes me sick to my stomach and utterly sad for my Jewish friends. The motivation was 100% hatred of Jews and the desire to annihilate them. They use the excuse of what Israel has done to Gaza as justification, but that’s a lie.. Of course, Israel has a right to respond to Hamas. But, could someone please explain to me like I’m five why Israel can attack Palestinians? Palestinian people, not Hamas, are being killed. People’s homes are being destroyed and they are left homeless. They cannot escape. Now, Israel has used white phosphorous in Gaza. They denied it, but there’s video. Is it okay to kill innocent people and leave more homeless because they’d be collateral damage to get Hamas? Gaza was already a humanitarian crisis. Is it going to be a genocide now? Gazans in the north were instructed to evacuate south. WTH are they supposed to go? All of Gaza is in dire distress right now. This is not Israel attacking Hamas. This was Hamas attacking Jews and now Israel attacking Palestinians. Can no one see the difference? www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/white-phosphorus-israel-gaza-strike-video/Please, someone explain it so me because I’m seeing both as horrific acts. Sick to my stomach over all of it.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 13, 2023 20:25:19 GMT
I hear you but what’s been left out is that there is another entry point, and always has been, through Egypt. Right now the Egyptian side is open, but the Palestinian one is not and it is not 100% certain if it’s been damaged by the Israelis. Gaza used to be part of Egypt but Egypt does not want the refugees. None of the Arab countries do. They feel that by taking the refugees they will weaken the Palestinian cause so all the Arab nations leave them to suffer in Gaza. Erez on the north was opened after a week of closure in Sept. It was previously closed due to outbreak of violence. It has been closed again due to the war. The other exit—Rafah in the south—has always been closed except for transport of aid. However, there was bombing there that rendered it totally impassable. So, at present, there are no exits.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 13, 2023 20:25:45 GMT
The area in the south of Gaza seems desolate.
Some one some how is sheltering HAMAS in Gaza. I am sure that the Palestinians would rather not. But.......
I realize the Palestinians have been beaten to a pulp and unable to fight HAMAS.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 13, 2023 20:51:56 GMT
The attack by Hamas was horrible. Beyond deplorable. Full-stop, no excuses, 100% wrong. It makes me sick to my stomach and utterly sad for my Jewish friends. The motivation was 100% hatred of Jews and the desire to annihilate them. They use the excuse of what Israel has done to Gaza as justification, but that’s a lie.. Of course, Israel has a right to respond to Hamas. But, could someone please explain to me like I’m five why Israel can attack Palestinians? Palestinian people, not Hamas, are being killed. People’s homes are being destroyed and they are left homeless. They cannot escape. Now, Israel has used white phosphorous in Gaza. They denied it, but there’s video. Is it okay to kill innocent people and leave more homeless because they’d be collateral damage to get Hamas? Gaza was already a humanitarian crisis. Is it going to be a genocide now? Gazans in the north were instructed to evacuate south. WTH are they supposed to go? All of Gaza is in dire distress right now. This is not Israel attacking Hamas. This was Hamas attacking Jews and now Israel attacking Palestinians. Can no one see the difference? www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/white-phosphorus-israel-gaza-strike-video/Please, someone explain it so me because I’m seeing both as horrific acts. Sick to my stomach over all of it. I disagree with your assessment. Hamas is in Gaza. Israel is attacking Hamas. Hamas is still, literally, right now firing rockets at Israel from Gaza. Israel is attacking the locations that are firing at them. Hamas are terrorists who do not care about Palestinians. Hamas has weapons stores in homes, schools, and hospitals. Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. Israel told Palestinians to go to designated safe zones. Hamas told Palestinians not to and set up road blocks to prevent civilians from moving. Israel does roof knocks before they bomb a building. Israel is doing everything in its power to protect civilians, but Hamas wants civilians to die. That is not Israel’s fault, that is Hamas’s fault. Civilians die in wars. Look at what happened when we (the US) declared war on terror. There were civilian casualties. This is Israel’s war on terror. Could you imagine if the government of a territory was actively firing rockets into the US? How would we respond? Would we not respond because there are also civilians in the area? Civilians die in wars. Look at Dresden, the London Blitz, Hiroshima, Nagasaki.
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