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Post by sideways on Oct 13, 2023 21:09:39 GMT
The attack by Hamas was horrible. Beyond deplorable. Full-stop, no excuses, 100% wrong. It makes me sick to my stomach and utterly sad for my Jewish friends. The motivation was 100% hatred of Jews and the desire to annihilate them. They use the excuse of what Israel has done to Gaza as justification, but that’s a lie.. Of course, Israel has a right to respond to Hamas. But, could someone please explain to me like I’m five why Israel can attack Palestinians? Palestinian people, not Hamas, are being killed. People’s homes are being destroyed and they are left homeless. They cannot escape. Now, Israel has used white phosphorous in Gaza. They denied it, but there’s video. Is it okay to kill innocent people and leave more homeless because they’d be collateral damage to get Hamas? Gaza was already a humanitarian crisis. Is it going to be a genocide now? Gazans in the north were instructed to evacuate south. WTH are they supposed to go? All of Gaza is in dire distress right now. This is not Israel attacking Hamas. This was Hamas attacking Jews and now Israel attacking Palestinians. Can no one see the difference? www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/white-phosphorus-israel-gaza-strike-video/Please, someone explain it so me because I’m seeing both as horrific acts. Sick to my stomach over all of it. I disagree with your assessment. Hamas is in Gaza. Israel is attacking Hamas. Hamas is still, literally, right now firing rockets at Israel from Gaza. Israel is attacking the locations that are firing at them. Hamas are terrorists who do not care about Palestinians. Hamas has weapons stores in homes, schools, and hospitals. Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. Israel told Palestinians to go to designated safe zones. Hamas told Palestinians not to and set up road blocks to prevent civilians from moving. Israel does roof knocks before they bomb a building. Israel is doing everything in its power to protect civilians, but Hamas wants civilians to die. That is not Israel’s fault, that is Hamas’s fault. Civilians die in wars. Look at what happened when we (the US) declared war on terror. There were civilian casualties. This is Israel’s war on terror. Could you imagine if the government of a territory was actively firing rockets into the US? How would we respond? Would we not respond because there are also civilians in the area? Civilians die in wars. Look at Dresden, the London Blitz, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Ever hear of strategic or military targets? I won’t rationalize killing innocent human beings, ever. You go right ahead, though.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 13, 2023 21:20:00 GMT
I disagree with your assessment. Hamas is in Gaza. Israel is attacking Hamas. Hamas is still, literally, right now firing rockets at Israel from Gaza. Israel is attacking the locations that are firing at them. Hamas are terrorists who do not care about Palestinians. Hamas has weapons stores in homes, schools, and hospitals. Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. Israel told Palestinians to go to designated safe zones. Hamas told Palestinians not to and set up road blocks to prevent civilians from moving. Israel does roof knocks before they bomb a building. Israel is doing everything in its power to protect civilians, but Hamas wants civilians to die. That is not Israel’s fault, that is Hamas’s fault. Civilians die in wars. Look at what happened when we (the US) declared war on terror. There were civilian casualties. This is Israel’s war on terror. Could you imagine if the government of a territory was actively firing rockets into the US? How would we respond? Would we not respond because there are also civilians in the area? Civilians die in wars. Look at Dresden, the London Blitz, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Ever hear of strategic or military targets? I won’t rationalize killing innocent human beings, ever. You go right ahead, though. Israel *is* hitting strategic targets. The problem is Hamas makes sure civilian places like homes, schools, neighborhoods, and hospitals *are* the strategic targets. I’m not rationalizing killing innocent people, I am wondering why the standard for Israel seems to be different from the standard for every other country.
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Post by sideways on Oct 13, 2023 21:41:26 GMT
*NO* country should be killing innocent human beings. No different standards. It’s ALL wrong.
So, because Hamas is making civilians the targets, it’s okay just go go in and kill them anyways? Just to make sure Israel gets Hamas?
I’m fully aware what Hamas has done/is doing to Palestinians. Yes, they are to blame for putting Palestinians in danger. But, that doesn’t mean that innocent people should be killed because, “oh well, they’re in the way.”
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Post by Lexica on Oct 13, 2023 21:53:23 GMT
I have a question for those of you who know much more than I do regarding the history in the Gaza Strip area. Since Gaza is on the coast, I started wondering why the Palestinian people have not enlarged the existing port to take advantage of trade with countries other than Israel? A large port would allow for maximum ability to import goods and lower their dependence on Israel. Isn’t that a good thing for both groups?
There may be a very good and obvious reason, I just don’t know what it is so I apologize if this is an ignorant question. I did Google and see that they have trade agreements with several countries. I also read that there have been a few port plans with donor funding set up, but the plans fell through due to Israel bombing the existing port. I would think Israel would want to stop being required to provide food, fuel, electricity, and water.
Then I read this:
In February 2014, Palestinian Transportation Minister Nabil Dmeidi revealed that the Palestinian Authority and Egypt have been working on plans for building two airports in the West Bank, as well as a seaport in the Gaza Strip and a railway line between the Gaza Strip and Cairo. The transport ministry has signed a protocol of cooperation with Egypt's civil aviation authority to benefit from Egyptian expertise. The plans included the building of an airport east of Jericho and a second smaller one, somewhere in Area C.[12][13]
In May 2014, the Euro-Mid Observer for Human Rights released a working paper about the possibilities to realize the Seaport plans as an answer to the Blockade of the Gaza Strip. The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navanethem Pillay, said that the blockade is a violation of human rights and humanitarian law. The San Remo Manual on International Law applicable to armed conflicts at sea states that if the supplies essential for their survival are not reaching them, then the blockading party must provide them with these materials.[14]
To me that reads that as long as Israel blocks the Gaza Strip, they are obligated to provide supplies. Is there an advantage to Israel for doing so? Wouldn’t it be a big step toward mutual separation to stop being required to provide supplies? Let the Palestinian people provide for themselves via trade? What am I not seeing? I haven’t slept in two days so my rational thinking is admittedly quite fuzzy.
I know very little about the area and appropriate history other than what I stayed up all night last night reading. I don’t know why I haven’t researched these things before this. Especially since my neighbor and good friend was born in Israel and grew up on a Kibbutz. She used to tell me some stories about living there, all happy stories, and she would return twice a year for a month or so at a time to visit her mom and other relatives. She got remarried and moved away with her new husband and I moved away a while later and we lost touch. I would sure love to be able to sit down with her and ask questions now.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 13, 2023 22:05:00 GMT
*NO* country should be killing innocent human beings. No different standards. It’s ALL wrong. So, because Hamas is making civilians the targets, it’s okay just go go in and kill them anyways? Just to make sure Israel gets Hamas? I’m fully aware what Hamas has done/is doing to Palestinians. Yes, they are to blame for putting Palestinians in danger. But, that doesn’t mean that innocent people should be killed because, “oh well, they’re in the way.” I support eliminating Hamas. That part of the world won’t be safe for anyone (and more people will die in the long run) unless/until Hamas is eliminated. I support realistic solutions and there is no realistic situation in which civilians don’t die.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 13, 2023 22:05:34 GMT
The Palestinians do not have access to the Mediterranean Sea.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 13, 2023 22:23:08 GMT
I have a question for those of you who know much more than I do regarding the history in the Gaza Strip area. Since Gaza is on the coast, I started wondering why the Palestinian people have not enlarged the existing port to take advantage of trade with countries other than Israel? A large port would allow for maximum ability to import goods and lower their dependence on Israel. Isn’t that a good thing for both groups? There may be a very good and obvious reason, I just don’t know what it is so I apologize if this is an ignorant question. I did Google and see that they have trade agreements with several countries. I also read that there have been a few port plans with donor funding set up, but the plans fell through due to Israel bombing the existing port. I would think Israel would want to stop being required to provide food, fuel, electricity, and water. Then I read this: In February 2014, Palestinian Transportation Minister Nabil Dmeidi revealed that the Palestinian Authority and Egypt have been working on plans for building two airports in the West Bank, as well as a seaport in the Gaza Strip and a railway line between the Gaza Strip and Cairo. The transport ministry has signed a protocol of cooperation with Egypt's civil aviation authority to benefit from Egyptian expertise. The plans included the building of an airport east of Jericho and a second smaller one, somewhere in Area C.[12][13]
In May 2014, the Euro-Mid Observer for Human Rights released a working paper about the possibilities to realize the Seaport plans as an answer to the Blockade of the Gaza Strip. The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navanethem Pillay, said that the blockade is a violation of human rights and humanitarian law. The San Remo Manual on International Law applicable to armed conflicts at sea states that if the supplies essential for their survival are not reaching them, then the blockading party must provide them with these materials.[14]
To me that reads that as long as Israel blocks the Gaza Strip, they are obligated to provide supplies. Is there an advantage to Israel for doing so? Wouldn’t it be a big step toward mutual separation to stop being required to provide supplies? Let the Palestinian people provide for themselves via trade? What am I not seeing? I haven’t slept in two days so my rational thinking is admittedly quite fuzzy. I know very little about the area and appropriate history other than what I stayed up all night last night reading. I don’t know why I haven’t researched these things before this. Especially since my neighbor and good friend was born in Israel and grew up on a Kibbutz. She used to tell me some stories about living there, all happy stories, and she would return twice a year for a month or so at a time to visit her mom and other relatives. She got remarried and moved away with her new husband and I moved away a while later and we lost touch. I would sure love to be able to sit down with her and ask questions now. Gaza was a port city for trade for centuries. In 1967, Israel blocked the one port and since then, no ships can reach Gaza City. As to Area C, I don’t know how that proposal is even possible because that’s under the control of Israel. In my first post in this thread, I referred to Area C, the control of which should have been transitioned to Palestine under the (failed) Oslo peace accords. It never happened. As to the airports and railway, I have no answer. Frankly, I’m a bit surprised by this because Egypt has been cooperating with Israel on maintaining the blockade in Gaza and the West Bank.
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Post by Lexica on Oct 13, 2023 22:24:36 GMT
The Palestinians do not have access to the Mediterranean Sea. Is it being blocked off?
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Post by Lexica on Oct 13, 2023 22:26:10 GMT
Thank you. I guess that would be an obvious answer.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 13, 2023 22:34:45 GMT
Thank you. I guess that would be an obvious answer. I think I heard or read that there can be some fishing under supervision, but I am 100% sure of that.
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Post by sideways on Oct 13, 2023 22:37:29 GMT
*NO* country should be killing innocent human beings. No different standards. It’s ALL wrong. So, because Hamas is making civilians the targets, it’s okay just go go in and kill them anyways? Just to make sure Israel gets Hamas? I’m fully aware what Hamas has done/is doing to Palestinians. Yes, they are to blame for putting Palestinians in danger. But, that doesn’t mean that innocent people should be killed because, “oh well, they’re in the way.” I support eliminating Hamas. That part of the world won’t be safe for anyone (and more people will die in the long run) unless/until Hamas is eliminated. I support realistic solutions and there is no realistic situation in which civilians don’t die. A realistic solution shouldn’t include bombing convoys of people who were evacuating as instructed.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 13, 2023 22:44:51 GMT
Former Ambassador Ginsberg to Morocco under Clinton. Talking about the situation. In the last 15 years the Palestinians 'shed no blood trying to stop HAMAS' One of the reasons no other country wants to take in the Palestinians is because they don't want any of those leaning toward or a member of HAMAS to find their way in. HAMAS is connected the the Muslim Brotherhood.
Understand those are not direct quotes. I can neither write or type that fast!
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Post by myshelly on Oct 13, 2023 22:48:05 GMT
I support eliminating Hamas. That part of the world won’t be safe for anyone (and more people will die in the long run) unless/until Hamas is eliminated. I support realistic solutions and there is no realistic situation in which civilians don’t die. A realistic solution shouldn’t include bombing convoys of people who were evacuating as instructed. Says Hamas. No independent sources are cooperating this that I can find.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 13, 2023 22:56:06 GMT
Thank you. I guess that would be an obvious answer. The only way I can really see those proposals come to fruition is for Israel to end the blockade (that’s a blockade of land, air and sea; that’s why Gaza is completely closed off and also why it’s been described as the world’s largest open-air prison). The rationale for it becoming permanent is to isolate Hamas and protect Israel after Hamas took over Gaza in ‘07. No amount of international pressure has induced Israel to end this blockade. Now, with this war? With what Hamas did? It’s probably nigh impossible it’ll happen in our lifetime. Even if Israel is able to completely annihilate Hamas, there’ll be another militant resistance organization to fill the vacuum.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 13, 2023 23:08:46 GMT
The attack by Hamas was horrible. Beyond deplorable. Full-stop, no excuses, 100% wrong. It makes me sick to my stomach and utterly sad for my Jewish friends. The motivation was 100% hatred of Jews and the desire to annihilate them. They use the excuse of what Israel has done to Gaza as justification, but that’s a lie.. Of course, Israel has a right to respond to Hamas. But, could someone please explain to me like I’m five why Israel can attack Palestinians? Palestinian people, not Hamas, are being killed. People’s homes are being destroyed and they are left homeless. They cannot escape. Now, Israel has used white phosphorous in Gaza. They denied it, but there’s video. Is it okay to kill innocent people and leave more homeless because they’d be collateral damage to get Hamas? Gaza was already a humanitarian crisis. Is it going to be a genocide now? Gazans in the north were instructed to evacuate south. WTH are they supposed to go? All of Gaza is in dire distress right now. This is not Israel attacking Hamas. This was Hamas attacking Jews and now Israel attacking Palestinians. Can no one see the difference? www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/white-phosphorus-israel-gaza-strike-video/Please, someone explain it so me because I’m seeing both as horrific acts. Sick to my stomach over all of it. You won't like the answer. And it won't be an answer appropriate for a 5 year old, because the situation is so complex for grown adults who have spent a lifetime studying and working toward peace in the Middle East without success, how could anyone realistically expect there is an answer that would inform a 5 year old. That's part of the problem, realistic expectations. The relative stability of the last 78 years (post WWII) has given people of privilege (like the West) the privilege of believing that peace is within our grasp. After all, if you look at all of humanity's technological achievements, surely we can agree on the killing of civilians. But this has been an aberration. Humanity is not that far down the path of enlightenment. The British & the French used to fight wars, on average every 17.5 years since 1109. Europe's war history is even more extensive. WWII historians will joke about how rare the 78 years is because the previous record for a particular piece of land was like 7 days. The lessons of late, have been to reveal that the Western belief that economic prosperity would lead if not to a true peace, the cessation of hostilities because powerful people would want to make more money than need to annihilate others, was wrong. These powerful people are more than willing to take advantage of the opportunity to enrich themselves and to finance destruction. Maybe, it's because that's what we'd do. Although, I would offer that that belief is misplaced as well. The GOP is demonstrating on a daily basis that they are more than willing to let women, minorities, LGBTQ community suffer and die at their hands rather than make money off their existence, and their purity campaign has gone so far as to severely limit the alternative. Although Democrats on the whole may be better, there are still too many individuals from national down to the local levels that put their finger on the scales for their personal benefit and not that of their constituents. It has all lead to a place where we are stuck holding the bag of a failed strategy, with little opportunity of either accountability on where things went wrong or agreement on an alternative option that has the elements to be successful. Naivete led us here, compounding it with more will only increase the length and intensity of the pain. Israel does not have trust that there are enough adult Palestinians who do not wish them death or exile to risk the consequences of alternative action. History does not provide evidence that this is true. As much as I would hope that there are enough adults in Palestine who value their own lives more than they want to eliminate Israel, I would not go that far. We have to be realistic about this. Being wrong means more incidents involving Jewish people wherever they live. Yes, these events will be radicalizing, but IMO, Hamas' success will also be radicalizing. With no way to accurately predict the delta (math term). The UN, the US and other Western nations are trying their best to prevent Israel going to far, especially because the primary goal is to keep this from expanding into other countries, and with the combo of what Russia and China do, as well as continued destabilization in Africa, we're in WWIII. Why doesn't Egypt do more... because they risk greater destabilization. I believe, for once, at this time Iran doesn't want to get more directly involved, because they already see growing protests in their country and risk greater destabilization, but if the world shows signs of abandoning Israel, this may change. Why don't we (the US) do more, because if you actually look around at the way our political process operates now, we are in the early stages of destabilization. Saying so is scary, and would have even more consequences worldwide, than what we have now, while everyone is playing along that things are still fine, waiting for us to straighten ourselves out, but that's where we are. Avoiding the killing of civilians remains the most noble of goals. But it will not happen by one side disarming or surrendering their security. It has to be both. The recent time when we saw the glimmer of this possibility was Gorbachev / Reagan, and that too proved to come with an expiration date because those that followed did not trust, or act in ways that made them trustworthy. The leaders have to be right for the time, the populace has to be right for the time, and we are in the middle of a particularly nasty streak of destructive, nationalistic populism, and Israel certainly does not appropriate leadership. We should expect more, not less death of innocent civilians in the next 78 years, because aberrations always end. Some Western countries have more recently adopted minimalization strategies, other countries have adopted policy of maximalization in part because the historical precedent of generating periods of peace have been complete destruction of the enemy. TLDL: The reason Israel can attack Palestinians is because Israel, like any sovereign country, has agency to act in their self-defense and they have a leadership who has chosen it as a means to achieve it. And everyone knows that if Israel does not maintain support from the West, Israel's sovereignty will be at risk in a way that invites destabilization of the entire region. So all the UN, USA, et. al can do is issue strongly worded statements, and try to work through diplomatic channels. Ultimately, the same limitation of why NATO can't risk direct intervention in Ukraine. The calculus isn't just Palestinian citizens, it is the triggering of dominos that results in the death of tens or hundreds of millions of people. So then we're at the trolley problem or the trigger button problem. You know your choice, but the leaders of every other country have agency and a responsibility to their citizens and will likely make alternative choices.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 13, 2023 23:32:33 GMT
Somewhere I made reference that if TFG and/or his close cohorts are elected it will come a time when we will become the oppressed, jailed or dead. The Jews, POC and yes us ordinary white people who are not their followers. They will have the guns, will we have the strength to fight back? They are already destroying our kids education. What will they know? Will they have the knowledge to protect themselves? Will they know how to fight back?
The comparisons to the Holocaust are not wrong!
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 14, 2023 2:23:35 GMT
I condemn Hamas for the brutalities they have inflicted on the Jews, the cruel kidnapping of women, children and the elderly, the slaughter of civilians, as well as understand the desire for retribution for the massacre of their innocents. These were barbaric, unjustified and unconscionable acts. For Hamas, nothing less than the complete eradication of Jews is acceptable. From the Holocaust to the rejection by the world of Jews en masse, who could blame the Jews for wanting a nation of their own? Who could blame them for fighting wars for their own security? At the same time I can have empathy for Palestinians who have suffered for decades under Israel’s rule, the dispossession of their lands, the occupation and blockade, who have also lost thousands of lives from extrajudicial killings, and who to this day have neither equal rights nor a state of their own. The present fascist government of Israel has ministers who have declared that Palestinians are an “invention” and that their villages should be wiped out. These, too, are inhumane. There is nothing morally ambiguous in acknowledging these. We know what’s right and what’s wrong, and recognizing that both ethnic groups do NOT have clean hands is not anti-Semitism. When people have been subjugated for so long, there inevitably comes a time when desperation will lead them to irrational choices. Although Hamas does not have the support of all Palestinians, there is enough support of them because Palestinians continue to be subjugated, denied rights and portions of the lands that belonged to them for centuries. They've also seen the impotence of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. In the meantime, “normalization” pacts are being decided as if the Palestinian problem can just be swept under the rug. I am not attempting to justify the terrorism and barbarism of Hamas; I am stating facts. The hostilities from both sides are deeply embedded in a very, very long history of pain, sorrow, and violence made possible by Western powers that had no foresight, all the way back to WWI when they were planning the divisions of the Middle Eastern countries due to the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. Promises were made to both Jews and Arabs, and it’s this double-dealing that laid the foundation for a war that never ends. Gaza is now being leveled and forcing Palestinians to flee. Where to? As grieving Israelis are once again burying their loved ones or praying that the hostages remain alive and are freed, already-impoverished Palestinians are also grieving their dead, helpless in the midst of a humanitarian crisis larger than they have endured for sixteen years. Bibi’s gov’t has ordered the cease of resources to Gaza. Food is running out, there’s no water, no fuel, no electricity, resources that Israel had been doling out only in dribs and drabs to Gaza before this war, and nowhere to escape to while the bombardment continues. The only certainty is that thousands, if not more, will continue to die. What Hamas did to Israelis are war crimes. What Israel is doing to Gazans right now is also a war crime. How many more generations of both groups should suffer? Until ALL parties agree to a two-state solution, and commit to that goal, there will never be an end to the atrocities from both sides. I hear you but what’s been left out is that there is another entry point, and always has been, through Egypt. Right now the Egyptian side is open, but the Palestinian one is not and it is not 100% certain if it’s been damaged by the Israelis. Gaza used to be part of Egypt but Egypt does not want the refugees. None of the Arab countries do. They feel that by taking the refugees they will weaken the Palestinian cause so all the Arab nations leave them to suffer in Gaza. What I have been hearing all week is that the border with Egypt is also closed.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 14, 2023 2:27:31 GMT
The attack by Hamas was horrible. Beyond deplorable. Full-stop, no excuses, 100% wrong. It makes me sick to my stomach and utterly sad for my Jewish friends. The motivation was 100% hatred of Jews and the desire to annihilate them. They use the excuse of what Israel has done to Gaza as justification, but that’s a lie.. Of course, Israel has a right to respond to Hamas. But, could someone please explain to me like I’m five why Israel can attack Palestinians? Palestinian people, not Hamas, are being killed. People’s homes are being destroyed and they are left homeless. They cannot escape. Now, Israel has used white phosphorous in Gaza. They denied it, but there’s video. Is it okay to kill innocent people and leave more homeless because they’d be collateral damage to get Hamas? Gaza was already a humanitarian crisis. Is it going to be a genocide now? Gazans in the north were instructed to evacuate south. WTH are they supposed to go? All of Gaza is in dire distress right now. This is not Israel attacking Hamas. This was Hamas attacking Jews and now Israel attacking Palestinians. Can no one see the difference? www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/white-phosphorus-israel-gaza-strike-video/Please, someone explain it so me because I’m seeing both as horrific acts. Sick to my stomach over all of it. I disagree with your assessment. Hamas is in Gaza. Israel is attacking Hamas. Hamas is still, literally, right now firing rockets at Israel from Gaza. Israel is attacking the locations that are firing at them. Hamas are terrorists who do not care about Palestinians. Hamas has weapons stores in homes, schools, and hospitals. Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. Israel told Palestinians to go to designated safe zones. Hamas told Palestinians not to and set up road blocks to prevent civilians from moving. Israel does roof knocks before they bomb a building. Israel is doing everything in its power to protect civilians, but Hamas wants civilians to die. That is not Israel’s fault, that is Hamas’s fault. Civilians die in wars. Look at what happened when we (the US) declared war on terror. There were civilian casualties. This is Israel’s war on terror. Could you imagine if the government of a territory was actively firing rockets into the US? How would we respond? Would we not respond because there are also civilians in the area? Civilians die in wars. Look at Dresden, the London Blitz, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Israel shot off 6000 rockets last night. You can’t tell me that is a targeted attack, especially in such a small area. Also, not allowing water, electricity or fuel to ALL citizens (and half of Gaza is kids under 16), is not ok. I understand that there will be civilian casualties but this seems excessive especially when they have nowhere to go.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 14, 2023 2:38:34 GMT
I disagree with your assessment. Hamas is in Gaza. Israel is attacking Hamas. Hamas is still, literally, right now firing rockets at Israel from Gaza. Israel is attacking the locations that are firing at them. Hamas are terrorists who do not care about Palestinians. Hamas has weapons stores in homes, schools, and hospitals. Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. Israel told Palestinians to go to designated safe zones. Hamas told Palestinians not to and set up road blocks to prevent civilians from moving. Israel does roof knocks before they bomb a building. Israel is doing everything in its power to protect civilians, but Hamas wants civilians to die. That is not Israel’s fault, that is Hamas’s fault. Civilians die in wars. Look at what happened when we (the US) declared war on terror. There were civilian casualties. This is Israel’s war on terror. Could you imagine if the government of a territory was actively firing rockets into the US? How would we respond? Would we not respond because there are also civilians in the area? Civilians die in wars. Look at Dresden, the London Blitz, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Israel shot off 6000 rockets last night. You can’t tell me that is a targeted attack, especially in such a small area. Also, not allowing water, electricity or fuel to ALL citizens (and half of Gaza is kids under 16), is not ok. I understand that there will be civilian casualties but this seems excessive especially when they have nowhere to go. Hamas shot over 5,000 rockets last night. It seems like a proportional response.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 14, 2023 5:14:57 GMT
There is still no comparison with what HAMAS did last Saturday morning, up close and personal, how else did they behead babies! There was nothing random about it.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 14, 2023 14:03:23 GMT
I support eliminating Hamas. That part of the world won’t be safe for anyone (and more people will die in the long run) unless/until Hamas is eliminated. I support realistic solutions and there is no realistic situation in which civilians don’t die. A realistic solution shouldn’t include bombing convoys of people who were evacuating as instructed. It should not, I agree. (The bombing of a convoy of Palestinian evacuees has been confirmed by WaPo and the BBC thus far.)
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 14, 2023 23:02:56 GMT
Biden states there is a second aircraft carrier group heading toward the eastern Mediterranean.
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Post by dewryce on Oct 14, 2023 23:06:48 GMT
A realistic solution shouldn’t include bombing convoys of people who were evacuating as instructed. It should not, I agree. (The bombing of a convoy of Palestinian evacuees has been confirmed by WaPo and the BBC thus far.) Have they confirmed where the bomb was from? I was just reading and it was worded strangely, something like “Hamas indictates Israel bombed…” To me it just sounded like it hadn’t been confirmed.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 15, 2023 0:01:30 GMT
It should not, I agree. (The bombing of a convoy of Palestinian evacuees has been confirmed by WaPo and the BBC thus far.) Have they confirmed where the bomb was from? I was just reading and it was worded strangely, something like “Hamas indictates Israel bombed…” To me it just sounded like it hadn’t been confirmed. I'm providing the exact wording so you can determine the veracity for yourself: A graphic video verified by The Washington Post showed the aftermath of a deadly strike along Gaza’s main highway Friday, part of a wave of Israeli attacks that killed dozens and injured more than 200 people fleeing northern Gaza, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza. The video, recorded along Salah Al-Deen road, shows bodies, including several young children, strewn along the road as black smoke rises from vehicles engulfed in flames. On the north-facing side of the road, bodies are laid out amid personal belongings, including a bicycle, on flatbed trailers attached to a truck. The video was first geolocated by open-source researchers Chris Osieck and Gabòr Friesen and confirmed by The Post. BBC: BBC Verify has confirmed women and young children were killed when a strike hit their vehicles as they headed away from northern Gaza. Analysis of images from the scene show some of those who died were aged between two and five.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Oct 15, 2023 4:32:07 GMT
I disagree with your assessment. Hamas is in Gaza. Israel is attacking Hamas. Hamas is still, literally, right now firing rockets at Israel from Gaza. Israel is attacking the locations that are firing at them. Hamas are terrorists who do not care about Palestinians. Hamas has weapons stores in homes, schools, and hospitals. Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. Israel told Palestinians to go to designated safe zones. Hamas told Palestinians not to and set up road blocks to prevent civilians from moving. Israel does roof knocks before they bomb a building. Israel is doing everything in its power to protect civilians, but Hamas wants civilians to die. That is not Israel’s fault, that is Hamas’s fault. Civilians die in wars. Look at what happened when we (the US) declared war on terror. There were civilian casualties. This is Israel’s war on terror. Could you imagine if the government of a territory was actively firing rockets into the US? How would we respond? Would we not respond because there are also civilians in the area? Civilians die in wars. Look at Dresden, the London Blitz, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Ever hear of strategic or military targets? I won’t rationalize killing innocent human beings, ever. You go right ahead, though. I
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Oct 15, 2023 4:35:46 GMT
The Palestinians do not have access to the Mediterranean Sea. Is it being blocked off? Yes, because f it wasn't it would be easy access for terrorists to Israel. Wait, I think that's exactly what happened
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Post by myshelly on Oct 16, 2023 3:14:09 GMT
I support eliminating Hamas. That part of the world won’t be safe for anyone (and more people will die in the long run) unless/until Hamas is eliminated. I support realistic solutions and there is no realistic situation in which civilians don’t die. A realistic solution shouldn’t include bombing convoys of people who were evacuating as instructed. So now that it’s come out that it wasn’t Israel that hit the convoy, that it was actually Hamas, you’re just *crickets*? Ready to be realistic yet?
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 16, 2023 12:52:13 GMT
A realistic solution shouldn’t include bombing convoys of people who were evacuating as instructed. So now that it’s come out that it wasn’t Israel that hit the convoy, that it was actually Hamas, you’re just *crickets*? Ready to be realistic yet? Do you have a link? I haven’t heard that and a quick google search doesn’t bring up any thing. That being said, if Hamas was responsible I hope that the people from Gaza find that out. It wouldn’t really change my mind about Israel but would show even more clearly what Hamas is all about.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 16, 2023 13:19:16 GMT
I heard late yesterday that it was explosives ON the ground placed by HAMAS and not from a rocket from Israel.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 16, 2023 18:26:21 GMT
Part of the confusion is that there were two incidents. The street with the flatbed trailer, I’ll call A, then there was a 2nd incident involving a white van on the Gaza Wadi bridge, I’ll call B.
Video of incident B appeared online, and the OSINT accounts, slowed it down, reviewed it and noted that they could find no projectile hitting the van. Smoke came out of the driver’s window before it exploded. Signs indicative of a car bomb intended to disrupt the evacuation and blame Israel.
Incident A, IDF said they did not fire a missile and IDF said that the road was boobytrapped by Hamas. I saw this reported by NBC’s Richard Engel. I have not seen confirmation to back up the IDF’s account. I have seen people using incident B as proof for Incident A. There is before and after footage of A, apparently, (I try to avoid watching the videos) but not “at the moment.” Lots of speculative comments about the damage of the vehicle not being consistent with a missile, but I don’t think from the OSINT people. Their timelines move fast.
There is also video evidence of Hamas roadblocks on the evacuation routes, so with 2 incidents with evidence of Hamas, I suspect the benefit of the doubt is being given to IDF about the third. And the messiness conflation of the reporting, the media just moved on. But I have not seen confirmed confirmed like with incident B.
Accidentally deleted my last paragraph, but final thoughts are everyone needs to be careful. Disinformation campaigns in the 21st century are operating at full tilt. Flood the zone (apparently lots of recycled video from Syria), combined with MSM’s motivation to report quickly and it gets tricky.
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