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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 21:32:53 GMT
THIS IS GOING TO BE LONG - so bear with me.
The last few months have been going well. He and GF come to dinner occassionally, they went boating with us one weekend. It's been nice. While they still make really dumb day to day decsions (on money, jobs, health issues) we don't get involved and just let them do their thing.
So 3 weeks ago he texts me and asks if I could help him buy (borrow money) a birthday gift for GF. He wants to get her a ring. I suggest QVC and he and I spend a few days mulling over rings. Next thing I know, he is showing me bridal sets and I'm like "oh no". I tell him I'm not funding an engagement ring and just the fact he has to borrow $60 to buy one is one of many flags that your too young to be considering marraige.
We talked about what it took to get married, what marriage means, how they just arent ready financially and maturity wise. He agreed and said a promise ring is all he should give her. I agreed. I also told him if they wait to get engaged until 1 of them gets through college we will put X amount of money toward the wedding. If they both get through colllege we will double that. If they choose to get engaged/married before college graduation, we wont' help pay for the wedding. He thought that was fair idea and he said GF would think so too.
So - he gets her a very cute "promise" ring and last Sunday when we had dinner for her he gives her the ring. She loves it but out of the corner of my eye I saw her try to fit it on her ring finger. In my mind I'm thinking she is going to play pretend engagement. The next day DS calls and asks if they can use it as an engagement ring. I say "what about our talk and you agreeing to wait" he says she doesn't want to wait and wants to get engaged. I reminded him of our deal - a wedding before gradution gets no money. He said he knows and they are only going to "pretend" they are engaged. I have no idea what that even means.
SO....Wednesday was her real birthday and that evening a picture of my son down on one knee proposing is on FB. With the words "a wonderful birthday surprise. we are getting married".
I'm ticked at this point. Im pretty sure they had this planned from the get go and was jsut agreeing to me to make me happy. I texted him and he says he went along with it so "she wouldn't chew me out" and that she planned the whole thing and just told him to show up. This is all pretty believable because she has been very manipultive in the past.
But the next day in the midst of all her 20 yr old friends thinking this is the greatest thing ever, her cousin posts on the picture "what did your parents think?" and she replies that DS went to her dad two days prior ( so monday night) and got his permission. And they are happy for us <gag>.
Which means....Ds did this on his own, not because she wanted it. Again...telling me what he knew I wanted to hear.
So where are we now. No clue....I am very upset and don't want to talk to him. He has manipulated me so many times and I keep allowing him to do it. I have got to learn to say no to him and I have to learn so stop getting involved in his life. With DS it's all about what he wants (or she wants) and I need to just stay away from that. DH has done a very good job at setting healthly boundaries and I need to also.
Oh...I don't have the $60 from him yet because he didn't have the money. But...they spent the weekend in Santa Cruz so apparently they have money for that.
<sigh>
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uksue
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Post by uksue on Aug 16, 2015 21:46:25 GMT
I'm sorry- kids can really break your heart at times .
Really nothing has changed : he's just proved once again he hasn't matured and you need to reassert your boundaries . Thank heavens the ring was only $60 - I would tell him that he's saved you a fortune because his lies have cost him any future monetary help, and stick to it!
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Aug 16, 2015 21:50:44 GMT
I don't think it's a good idea to attempt to control your child's choices with promises of money.
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LeaP
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Post by LeaP on Aug 16, 2015 22:02:32 GMT
Ouch! Sadly, I think you have no choice but to let him make his own mistakes. On the other hand, if he can't afford $60 for a ring, his living accommodations, transportation and communication choices, and entertainment budget are probably pretty slim. Going to school might become a more attractive choice than living in poverty. Playing house is much less fun if you are struggling to pay for cable TV. For you own sanity only give money for ramen. He won't starve and the rest will take care of itself.
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Post by christine58 on Aug 16, 2015 22:04:07 GMT
Stick to your guns about paying for the wedding etc. He is manipulating you and he's being manipulated by her IMHO. I would look at the $60 as a gift and not give him another cent. You have a kind heart and want so bad for things with him--all the way around--to just be good for him. I think you're right in this was planned etc, but nothing you can do now other than stick with your plan. Olan I so disagree with you. Many parents have guidelines involving money and school etc. I always knew that if my grades in college sucked and if I had to repeat courses--that was on me financially. It is what it is... |
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Post by polz on Aug 16, 2015 22:07:28 GMT
I don't think it's a good idea to attempt to control your child's choices with promises of money. This. I totally get that your son isn't doing what you think is best (and I probably agree with you) but I don't think you can bribe/buy him. I would just pray that his fiancée does not get pregnant anytime soon. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Aug 16, 2015 22:08:11 GMT
Stick to your guns about paying for the wedding etc. He is manipulating you and he's being manipulated by her IMHO. I would look at the $60 as a gift and not give him another cent. You have a kind heart and want so bad for things with him--all the way around--to just be good for him. I think you're right in this was planned etc, but nothing you can do now other than stick with your plan. Olan I so disagree with you. Many parents have guidelines involving money and school etc. I always knew that if my grades in college sucked and if I had to repeat courses--that was on me financially. It is what it is... Telling your child when to propose and promising money for the decision you deem most appropriate isn't the same as withdrawing financial support for a child who isn't studying hard. Even forcing a child into a particular major is wrong I think. I don't have kids. I sympathize with her because I've followed the story but clearly this didn't work out the way she had hoped. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 22:11:01 GMT
I know it's breaking your heart to watch your son make these poor choices. But they're his choices and he's going to have to deal with the fall out. You don't need to feel guilty about not helping him financially. Everyone has to learn these lessons. He's just choosing the hard way.
Maybe he'll insist on a long engagement. Unless they're getting married next week, there's still a chance he could comes to his senses.
In the meantime, stay strong, Mama. Hugs to you!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 22:11:06 GMT
I don't think it's a good idea to attempt to control your child's choices with promises of money. I don't see it as controling. I see it as motivation. But I am sure some people will see us "punishing" him for not paying for a wedding for a 19 & 20 yr old. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 22:13:00 GMT
I don't think it's a good idea to attempt to control your child's choices with promises of money. This. I totally get that your son isn't doing what you think is best (and I probably agree with you) but I don't think you can bribe/buy him. I would just pray that his fiancée does not get pregnant anytime soon. That's a very big concern. She is so good at getting what she wants so if she decides she wants a baby, she will convince him it's time. (or not convince him and just get pregnant) |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 16, 2015 22:13:19 GMT
Ugh. I would snap shot her post about him asking her father 2 days prior (showing that he lied to you) and print it and either post it on the fridge as a reminder NOT to be helping and/or hand it to him the next time he comes over.
I'm sorry that he is being manipulative that really sucks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 22:15:48 GMT
I don't understand the difference between a promise ring and an engagement ring. Both are an expectation of a future wedding.
While I do understand your desire to not fund their life the ONLY way to do that is permanently close your purse strings for ALL reasons or only for reasons that can't be twisted... you'll pay tuition for college after the semester has ended and the grades are what you are willing to pay for. (he will have to provide you with a transcript)
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Aug 16, 2015 22:16:07 GMT
At some point the incentive for making good choices has to be a little less parent guided. Similar to the saying an addict won't be successful in recovery until recovery is what he is really after. I make good choices because I don't want my life to go to shit. Simple. I think you've got to take a step back and allow your son room to make his own life choices and experience natural consequences. This. I totally get that your son isn't doing what you think is best (and I probably agree with you) but I don't think you can bribe/buy him. I would just pray that his fiancée does not get pregnant anytime soon. That's a very big concern. She is so good at getting what she wants so if she decides she wants a baby, she will convince him it's time. (or not convince him and just get pregnant) By just getting pregnant do you mean poke holes in condoms? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 22:27:23 GMT
I make good choices because I don't want my life to go to shit. Simple. I think you've got to take a step back and allow your son room to make his own life choices and experience natural consequences. By just getting pregnant do you mean poke holes in condoms? This is my biggest issue - he is okay with his life being shit. I'm the one who really wants more for him. They are broke, live in low income housing, have 1 car that barely runs. He thinks life is great because he makes his own decisions. He keeps saying he will get serious about college but again this semester he is only taking 1 class. We were hoping paying for the wedding would be incentive for them to actually get through college. I'm sure he isn't using condoms anymore because I know she is on the pill now. Those are easy to forget to take. |
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Post by Basket1lady on Aug 16, 2015 22:28:16 GMT
I'm so sorry you are going through this.
What I'm wondering is what is the difference between what they are doing now and getting married? It doesn't cost any more for two people to live together as boy friend and girl friend vs. living together married. My kids are a little younger--18 & 16. I absolutely don't want them to get married before they finish college, but I'd still be willing to fund their college education as if they were single. To me, that's the last gift I have to give--a good set up for the future. I'm really conflicted on this, as I wouldn't want to condone behavior or a relationship that I don't approve of. But I wouldn't want to withhold tuition and be a part of an impoverished future either.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Aug 16, 2015 22:30:54 GMT
I make good choices because I don't want my life to go to shit. Simple. I think you've got to take a step back and allow your son room to make his own life choices and experience natural consequences. By just getting pregnant do you mean poke holes in condoms? This is my biggest issue - he is okay with his life being shit. I'm the one who really wants more for him. They are broke, live in low income housing, have 1 car that barely runs. He thinks life is great because he makes his own decisions. He keeps saying he will get serious about college but again this semester he is only taking 1 class. We were hoping paying for the wedding would be incentive for them to actually get through college. I'm sure he isn't using condoms anymore because I know she is on the pill now. Those are easy to forget to take. Pills are easy to forget as is personal responsibility. Parents can do everything to raise their children up right but when they makes choices that aren't aligned with their upbringing and even though it hurts...you have to remember you can't control adult children. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 22:49:37 GMT
I totally agree with every thing Olan has posted in this thread.
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julieb
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Post by julieb on Aug 16, 2015 22:58:41 GMT
I'm so sorry. The gf (now fiancée) is manipulating their entire relationship. I would think she is threatening him with leaving if they don't get engaged, etc. Stick by your decisions. I have a feeling if he doesn't marry her on her timeline she will get pregnant. Hopefully he is using protection also.
My friend's stepson just went through this. 19 yo girl - wants more - gets engaged - gets pg - has baby and has now left the stepson and taken the baby with her because she "likes" someone else. Ugh.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 23:08:00 GMT
Wow, I know he's your kid, but I would be DONE. I would not support him or his marriage. Let him fall flat on his face and then he may get a clue. Seriously, he is very manipulative and disrespectful. Lying to you like that is beyond okay IMHO. Sorry, if this sounds harsh, but geez....the nerve of those two.
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Aug 16, 2015 23:26:25 GMT
What is the difference between a "promise" ring and an engagement ring anyhow?
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Post by bc2ca on Aug 16, 2015 23:29:15 GMT
{{hugs}} I'm sorry to hear your DS and GF have moved forward to engaged and wouldn't hold my breath for a long engagement. I'm curous whether or not their friend group is also heading in this direction. Given that they have lived together for a year, I can see some family and friends putting pressure on them to take it to the next step depending on cultural expectations and what others in their social group are doing. DD(18) has a few friends that have recently become engaged and one was married just a couple weeks after graduation. I'm horrified, but in their circle it seems to be accepted.
I also think it's OK to give the kids a financial incentive to graduate.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 23:31:38 GMT
I feel for you. There really is nothing you can do but sit back and watch this unfold and pray/hope for the best. Watching them "play" engagement on social media with a $60 ring would kill me. Like you, I would not be paying for a 19/20 year old wedding..... seriously, under no circumstances would I do that.
So many of these young girls are obsessing about having a wedding and baby. My daughter is 19 and she and her college aged friends have "someday baby" and "future wedding" pin boards on pinterest. ACK!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 23:32:44 GMT
This is my biggest issue - he is okay with his life being shit. I'm the one who really wants more for him. They are broke, live in low income housing, have 1 car that barely runs. He thinks life is great because he makes his own decisions. He keeps saying he will get serious about college but again this semester he is only taking 1 class. We were hoping paying for the wedding would be incentive for them to actually get through college. I'm sure he isn't using condoms anymore because I know she is on the pill now. Those are easy to forget to take. If he is only taking one class then he IS managing to save a considerable sum of money on his income because he is having to pay for it in cash. I worked full time and graduated this past December. Taking just one class while working full time plus any overtime IS being serious about college. The semesters I took two classes and worked about did me in! Until he is 24 OR married he can't get any grants or loans for school without your cooperation. I'd say he is being serious about school and doing well despite the lack of resources or help from family or government. |
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YooHoot
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Post by YooHoot on Aug 16, 2015 23:33:56 GMT
I make good choices because I don't want my life to go to shit. Simple. I think you've got to take a step back and allow your son room to make his own life choices and experience natural consequences. By just getting pregnant do you mean poke holes in condoms? This is my biggest issue - he is okay with his life being shit. I'm the one who really wants more for him. They are broke, live in low income housing, have 1 car that barely runs. He thinks life is great because he makes his own decisions. He keeps saying he will get serious about college but again this semester he is only taking 1 class. We were hoping paying for the wedding would be incentive for them to actually get through college. I'm sure he isn't using condoms anymore because I know she is on the pill now. Those are easy to forget to take. A wedding doesn't make a marriage. They could fail in a year, they could go on to live 50 years of bliss. Would I recommend getting married that young? HELL NO! And I got married at 19 like a dipshit. I thought I knew everything. I'm still married so I'm not the best example, but it's tough. I was a teenager starting a life with a young husband, a mom to two in my late 20s, a kid in college in my 40's. All you can do is offer advice when asked, otherwise...just keep your opinions tucked away inside. He loves his life and if he's happy...let it be. And I wouldn't loan him anymore money that you can't afford to lose or hold over his head. It's not fair to you or him. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 23:56:59 GMT
Thanks for updating!! I think of you and your DS often..
I'm sorry to hear that he manipulated you. Do you think that if you called his attention to the fact that you know you got played that he wouldn't cut you off again? I think he should know that you know, but not if it would cause you to cut your nose off to spite your face.
Lesson learned for sure that you can't trust him or his word. I have a niece that's very similar to your son. We love on her when we see her and stay in touch with her but we will not give her money or give her any incentive to do anything because she will somehow manipulate us to get the incentive and then run. She calls and texts when she needs or wants something. It's sad..but eventually I have hope she will grow up.
I disagree with Olan that incentives don't work. I think they are a useful tool..but only if you stick to your guns.
I wouldn't stress about this "engagement". She very well could've pushed him to go to her dad and pushed the whole promise into engagement thing. He gave her the promise ring, she wanted the fun and excitement of engagement, told him there's no difference between the two, can't accept the ring until he talks to dad, etc. just trying to give your DS a little benefit of the doubt that maybe his intentions weren't totally dishonorable.
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Post by knit.pea on Aug 17, 2015 0:00:57 GMT
He's making all these choices. You have to rein yourself back and let him.
I would not have loaned him money for the ring; he could have saved and got it himself. That is what being an adult is; knowing your limitations and being realistic.
Put no money strings out there at all ... nothing but family time together.
If they want to talk about a wedding, let them.
Either say you are not in a position to contribute or say what you will contribute (concisely, with no strings; $X period). This is their rodeo. She seems intent on getting there.
And if she ever finds the texts between you two, where he is telling a completely different story or throwing her under the bus, it will get even uglier.
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Post by knit.pea on Aug 17, 2015 0:09:49 GMT
Well, what I typed sounded harsh.
I feel for you, as a Mom, I truly do.
But you have to step back. You can't control him.
I keep telling myself this about my own boys, too, because they can be so freakin' boneheaded!
I sincerely hope/pray mine hit their 20s and get some sense.
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RosieKat
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Post by RosieKat on Aug 17, 2015 0:10:19 GMT
I'm sorry.
I also wanted to offer the possibility that the GF is lying about him asking dad. She's obviously manipulative and creates her own reality...if that's how she always dreamed it would happen, then that's how she has decided it happened, whether it's real or not.
But still, the whole thing just sucks and I know your mama heart is broken.
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NoWomanNoCry
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Aug 17, 2015 0:16:50 GMT
Are you sure he really did ask the GFs father on Monday about marriage? I know she posted it in response to her cousin asking but maybe that's just part of her trying to make this look like everyone is on board and happy.
*hugs* I've been following your story and I really hope this turns out for the best.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 0:18:30 GMT
Maybe he's not so much manipulating you, but is uncomfortable telling you the truth, since he must know how you feel about it.
I'm probably not the most sympathetic person, though, because DH and I started living together around that age and had our first baby when we were 21. Neither of our families were supportive, and I've heard ALLLLL the lines about ruining our lives -- and it continued for years.
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