stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on Jan 13, 2016 23:20:09 GMT
I'm glad to read this thread because after 3 episodes I had to stop watching. Just too damn depressing. Steven, with his 70 IQ, and the nephew, with his 'slow learning' - it's just too damn depressing. I don't know if he did it or not, but I think I want to stay with fiction. "Mozart in the Jungle" here I come. You're wise. I had to stop after episode four for a couple of days. It doesn't get any better through the rest of the series. You'll vacillate between sadness, anger, and plain WTF!. You'll think he definately did it, then think he was framed. Very few of the law enforcement and legal players, and the whole system in general, come off well either. It's a roller coaster.
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,610
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Jan 13, 2016 23:31:19 GMT
My 23 year old dd, who knows me so well, said: "stop. It will break your heart." So, I've stopped.
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Post by beanbuddymom on Jan 13, 2016 23:41:44 GMT
My 23 year old dd, who knows me so well, said: "stop. It will break your heart." So, I've stopped. Insightful. I was crying towards the end. Makes me so angry, and for what I used to say often when I was a child/teen watching TV with my dad, I used to say, "Well, that's not fair."
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jan 14, 2016 2:13:58 GMT
I do not base my conclusions of guilt or innocence on facial expressions because that is a basis of opinion. While I cannot say with 100% certainty that Avery is innocent, the FACTS (evidence) present a wide enough doubt for me to feel he did not commit the crime. But realize perception is all people have to go on as no one was there to see the crime. Oh, I absolutely agree with your conclusion about the evidence. I didn't mean to intimate otherwise. I'm just always really uneasy with perceptions or assumptions that morph into conclusions. Even if perceptions are all we have left to consider, that doesn't minimize my uneasiness. I think we should feel a responsibility to temper speculative musings-as-fact about real-live-people, especially in an age when social media/internet discussion can foment "group think," even a kind of figurative mob action. People embolden each other; it's human nature. Once they read enough other people claiming they suspect or JUST KNOW something about someone else, others might more easily latch on, whether the conclusions formed are based on facial expression, eye gaze, religion, race, whatever. Okay, I'll stop now. "Internet clairvoyance" is a soapbox issue of mine. I'm just ticked off at Reddit, as usual. It's like NSBR on steroids. LOL.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jan 14, 2016 2:22:50 GMT
Weirdo separate-keys carrier here!!
I get in and out of my car numerous times a day for work, and can't be bothered with too much stuff. At work stops, I hang my car fob on my belt loop. The house keys stay in the car all day; I never connect them to each other. No purse on work days; license and credit card in my phone case; cash in the sunglasses compartment. I would definitely confound anyone looking for typical evidence.
Oh...and I had a valet key in the glove box of my old car, but I don't think I ever remembered to give it to a valet and now I'm wondering I ever actually touched that key. It came with a key ring thingee from the dealer. In fact, he might have put it in the glove box for me...
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valincal
Drama Llama
Southern Alberta
Posts: 5,635
Jun 27, 2014 2:21:22 GMT
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Post by valincal on Jan 14, 2016 3:11:32 GMT
My 23 year old dd, who knows me so well, said: "stop. It will break your heart." So, I've stopped. Wise girl. I've steered a few people away from it. It was very unsettling to watch.
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Post by beanbuddymom on Jan 14, 2016 17:00:26 GMT
So Jodi Stachowski, exfiancee of Steven Avery, interviewed giving her input. This is the girl that was supposedly on the phone with him during the timeline he was supposed to have been doing this murder/fire, etc. I am not sure what to think. She is said to have a lot of proof of an abusive relationship and threats received from him, and says the documentary people asked if she wanted to give one more interview last summer before they finalized it and not only did she turn them down for the interview but asked not to be in it at all. I don't know whether she is regretting her support of him and now is being faced with people wondering how she could support him and is changing her story, or if she wants her 15 minutes of fame, or if any of this has any truth/substance. www.hlntv.com/shows/morning-express-robin-meade/articles/2016/01/13/steven-avery-ex-fiancee-exclusive-interview
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on Jan 14, 2016 17:19:19 GMT
I don't doubt their relationship was a stormy one, and even abusive. I think of the phone calls she made at the time Avery was allegedly murdering Teresa Halbach and then disposing her body though, and how lovey-dovey they were. She knew the conversations were being recorded at the time, but had no way of knowing they would be made public ten years into the future. She supported him for a few months after he was arrested as well. You can't help but wonder if the possibility of Avery receiving a big payout from his civil suit kept her with him, and supporting him, until she realized it wasn't happening. I know she claims she couldn't leave, and I know that often happens in abusive relationships, but if that were the case you'd think she would have wanted to help the prosecution keep Avery incarcerated, rather than support his claim of innocence at the time. It's just another weird facet to this whole situation.
None of her story changes all the problems there were with the investigation and the trial though, it just proves again that Avery wasn't a nice guy, living on a property with a few other not nice guys, who I believe were all capable of murdering Teresa Halbach.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 13, 2024 5:40:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 17:23:01 GMT
I was going to watch it, then saw it was with Nancy Grace and I can already predict exactly how it went, so not wasting my time. I'm with stittsygirl - I think Avery wasn't a good person, potentially could have committed this crime (ditto other residents of the property), but the investigation and trial were fraught with so many issues, that there should be a new trial.
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on Jan 14, 2016 17:33:45 GMT
I was going to watch it, then saw it was with Nancy Grace and I can already predict exactly how it went, so not wasting my time. I'm with stittsygirl - I think Avery wasn't a good person, potentially could have committed this crime (ditto other residents of the property), but the investigation and trial were fraught with so many issues, that there should be a new trial. She's like two sets of nails on a chalkboard for me, and I can't watch her, so I'm getting this particular interview second hand. There's been a lot of seemingly justified talk about about how bad Steven Avery is/was, but I believe up to the point of his "confession" Brendan Dassey had never been in trouble, and seemed like a slow but decent kid. If nothing else comes out of this, I hope Brendan at least gets a second chance at a better life. I think so many people would be willing to help him now.
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Post by beanbuddymom on Jan 14, 2016 17:48:29 GMT
I was going to watch it, then saw it was with Nancy Grace and I can already predict exactly how it went, so not wasting my time. I'm with stittsygirl - I think Avery wasn't a good person, potentially could have committed this crime (ditto other residents of the property), but the investigation and trial were fraught with so many issues, that there should be a new trial. The interviewer is actually Natisha Lance so while it may be shown on the Nancy Grace show, she herself was not the person that did the interview, but her producer, if that helps. So the back and forth interview itself is Natisha Lance and Jodi. I know what you mean though. I am sure Nancy Grace feels like she is trying to get justice for the causes she reports but at some point I think her personality and credibility has turned people off.
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Post by jassy on Jan 14, 2016 17:54:29 GMT
I'm another one who had to stop watching - actually after the 3rd episode and Brendan's "confession".
Brendan reminds me so much of own son. He's nearly 15, is hearing impaired, has learning disabilities and is immature. I could see him behaving EXACTLY as Brendan did in that video - searching for an answer, trying to tell them what they wanted to hear so they would leave him alone and get back to class, in that same monotone, unsure way. I literally felt my heart shatter and pretty much had a break down because that could be my son. I'm crying right now just typing that actually.
Whatever happens, I pray to God something happens with Brendan's case. From what I saw and have since read because I can not possibly watch more of it, he deserves an adequate defense and a new trial.
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on Jan 14, 2016 18:06:02 GMT
I'm another one who had to stop watching - actually after the 3rd episode and Brendan's "confession". Brendan reminds me so much of own son. He's nearly 15, is hearing impaired, has learning disabilities and is immature. I could see him behaving EXACTLY as Brendan did in that video - searching for an answer, trying to tell them what they wanted to hear so they would leave him alone and get back to class, in that same monotone, unsure way. I literally felt my heart shatter and pretty much had a break down because that could be my son. I'm crying right now just typing that actually. Whatever happens, I pray to God something happens with Brendan's case. From what I saw and have since read because I can not possibly watch more of it, he deserves an adequate defense and a new trial. I felt the same way watching Brendan's "confession", and thinking of my own son. I know since watching the documentary that I've learned a lot more about what is permissible in getting a confession from a possible suspect, and how much leeway investigators in this country are given in their tactics, to include outright lying. There have been adults more intellectually and emotionally capable than Brendan Dassey who have given false confessions under this kind of mental coercion and duress. That it's legal to do that to a minor without any representation or even their parent at their side is horrendous. It really is a practice that needs reform and better oversight.
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,610
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Jan 14, 2016 20:24:36 GMT
I'm another one who had to stop watching - actually after the 3rd episode and Brendan's "confession". Brendan reminds me so much of own son. He's nearly 15, is hearing impaired, has learning disabilities and is immature. I could see him behaving EXACTLY as Brendan did in that video - searching for an answer, trying to tell them what they wanted to hear so they would leave him alone and get back to class, in that same monotone, unsure way. I literally felt my heart shatter and pretty much had a break down because that could be my son. I'm crying right now just typing that actually. Whatever happens, I pray to God something happens with Brendan's case. From what I saw and have since read because I can not possibly watch more of it, he deserves an adequate defense and a new trial. That's where I stopped too. And I almost feel guilty stopping because this is real life happening to real people. But when that poor child gives his "confession" and then asks if he will be able to make it back for sixth period because he has a project due, I wanted to weep.
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Post by mandolyn9909 on Jan 14, 2016 20:42:10 GMT
I'm another one who had to stop watching - actually after the 3rd episode and Brendan's "confession". Brendan reminds me so much of own son. He's nearly 15, is hearing impaired, has learning disabilities and is immature. I could see him behaving EXACTLY as Brendan did in that video - searching for an answer, trying to tell them what they wanted to hear so they would leave him alone and get back to class, in that same monotone, unsure way. I literally felt my heart shatter and pretty much had a break down because that could be my son. I'm crying right now just typing that actually. Whatever happens, I pray to God something happens with Brendan's case. From what I saw and have since read because I can not possibly watch more of it, he deserves an adequate defense and a new trial. I felt the same way watching Brendan's "confession", and thinking of my own son. I know since watching the documentary that I've learned a lot more about what is permissible in getting a confession from a possible suspect, and how much leeway investigators in this country are given in their tactics, to include outright lying. There have been adults more intellectually and emotionally capable than Brendan Dassey who have given false confessions under this kind of mental coercion and duress. That it's legal to do that to a minor without any representation or even their parent at their side is horrendous. It really is a practice that needs reform and better oversight. I think this is why I have such a strong reaction to Brendan's case too, it reminds me of my own son too and it was just so hard to watch. I seriously don't know how those cops can sleep at night and feel righteous in their jobs to interrogate a child like that. I also would go so far as to say that I think it should be law to have a lawyer or parent present when questioning a kid.
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Post by freecharlie on Jan 15, 2016 23:59:31 GMT
Dr Phil today and Monday has this discussion.
I haven't watched or read any of it, so I can't comment, but wanted to let you all know
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Post by Scrapper100 on Jan 16, 2016 0:21:57 GMT
I just watched the Dr Phil and I hadn't gone looking for the other side but there was more evidence than what they showed on the show. While I think it was handled horribly and still feel the boy should get a new trial I sm not as convinced he is innocent. Not convinced he is guilty but he looks more guilty than before brcause only seeing one side does that. I will watch next Monday as well.
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Post by uksue on Jan 16, 2016 15:35:25 GMT
The best discussion I have seen so far is this one on LipTv Crimetime with Jim Clemenete ( ex FBI profiler, writes for criminal minds.) youtu.be/HtEORKx8V8MIt's quite heated at times because there's a female prosecutor who is vehement Katz didn't really do anything wrong , but at least it isn't a one sided discussion. One of them describes this as ' a prefect storm of incompetence ' and I couldn't agree more! ETA Francine does come around at the end and say a writ of Habeas should be lodged for both and she hopes Wisconsin waives the time bar and allows this to be re-investigated. Hurrah, lol.
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Nink
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,947
Location: North Idaho
Jul 1, 2014 23:30:44 GMT
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Post by Nink on Jan 16, 2016 17:04:15 GMT
uksue that was a fabulous watch. Thanks for posting this. It seems they came to the same conclusion many of us have. He may very well be guilty, but the investigation and subsequent trial was a joke.
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Post by uksue on Jan 16, 2016 20:20:24 GMT
Nink, it's always worth checking out what Crimetime have posted. They cover all the big news stories with some great guests.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,994
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Jan 24, 2016 6:03:22 GMT
Finally finished watching the last 2 episodes tonight. Steven Avery may well have done it. I have no sympathy for him after what he did to the cat all the those years ago, but I still think this series shows how scary the legal system can be for poor, uneducated people. The system does not work for them.
Brendan's first lawyer was a complete dismal failure. Awful! I don't know if he was involved, but he deserves another trial. The whole thing was so difficult to watch. I didn't think his second lawyers were much better.
I am surprised by the shocking lack of dna evidence. I don't how they could convict Brendan solely on a very questionable confession.
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Post by chaosisapony on Jan 24, 2016 7:31:05 GMT
I started watching on Friday and finished up today. It was more compelling than I expected but I do wish we'd seen the other side of the story. I have so many questions about what happened to Teresa. Why only one key? What is the theory of what happened to her things? What was Steven's motive? How did the fire get hot enough to do that to a body? Etc, etc. They've all been brought up in this thread. I'm sure there are some things they just couldn't get into because of time constraints and it's really a shame that everyone else declined to be involved. I don't know if Steven did it, I highly doubt Brendan did it (poor kid was so confused all the time) but in both cases it really should have come down to simple reasonable doubt.
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on Jan 24, 2016 8:19:47 GMT
All the trial transcripts are up on Reddit now. The subject of her keys was brought up, and I know at least one of the people she worked with said she had a key ring with three or four keys on it, but also said she tended to lose keys.
The fire really bothers me too. I've read nothing yet that convinces me that her remains (especially her teeth) could have been burned to the extent they were in an open-pit fire like the one behind Avery's garage, even with tires in the mix.
But it really comes down to the blood in the car for me. I think a new test for EDTA in the Avery blood stains needs to be run again by an independent lab. I'm sorry, but I just don't trust the FBI or their results in this case. I've read a lot about the way the blood stains were tested and how the results were read, and it just seems like some things were done half-assed so the FBI could get results out relatively quickly to help the prosecution. If they have the car blood run again by a reputable lab independent of law enforcement, and the results came back with no EDTA in the blood samples, then I'll have to believe Avery was the murderer, even if the investigation was crap show all around and the Manitowoc sheriffs department still comes off shady as hell.
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Post by rainangel on Jan 24, 2016 10:03:37 GMT
www.yahoo.com/tv/cold-case-expert-thinks-making-020034799.htmlI am assuming we will soon have as many theories about who killed poor Teresa as there are possible Jack The Rippers. I remain very uncertain if the Avery's killed her. I think there should definitely be some more work done to look into other suspects. It didn't seem like 'other suspects' were in the Police's vocabulary back then.
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Post by uksue on Feb 14, 2016 16:42:04 GMT
I started a new thread about this but thought I would resurrect this thread as it was so interesting.
Since taking on his case, Kathleen Zellner has declined full blown interviews so far. She has however given a mini interview to Crimetime, and listening to it, I am even more convinced he didn't do it and that he will be exonerated. She is determined to make his case such thatit will be used in future trials to prevent wrongful conviction and I have to say, her reputation is phenomenal - I would definitely want her on my side in such a situation!
youtu.be/upcjW3rGCao
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on Feb 14, 2016 18:50:16 GMT
I started a new thread about this but thought I would resurrect this thread as it was so interesting. Since taking on his case, Kathleen Zellner has declined full blown interviews so far. She has however given a mini interview to Crimetime, and listening to it, I am even more convinced he didn't do it and that he will be exonerated. She is determined to make his case such thatit will be used in future trials to prevent wrongful conviction and I have to say, her reputation is phenomenal - I would definitely want her on my side in such a situation! youtu.be/upcjW3rGCao I too am really interested in what KZ has found. Apparently she and her team have been running a lot of forensic testing again, and she even tweeted something like it was "obvious" who the real killer was, but there's still a long list of potential suspects in my mind, so I don't know who she's focused on. But yeah, her reputation is impressive. I just started watching The Staircase, another 10-part documentary about the death/possible murder of Kathleen Peterson. It has as many twists and turns as MaM does, and over a decade later that story isn't over yet either.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Feb 14, 2016 18:56:11 GMT
I started a new thread about this but thought I would resurrect this thread as it was so interesting. Since taking on his case, Kathleen Zellner has declined full blown interviews so far. She has however given a mini interview to Crimetime, and listening to it, I am even more convinced he didn't do it and that he will be exonerated. She is determined to make his case such thatit will be used in future trials to prevent wrongful conviction and I have to say, her reputation is phenomenal - I would definitely want her on my side in such a situation! youtu.be/upcjW3rGCao I too am really interested in what KZ has found. Apparently she and her team have been running a lot of forensic testing again, and she even tweeted something like it was "obvious" who the real killer was, but there's still a long list of potential suspects in my mind, so I don't know who she's focused on. But yeah, her reputation is impressive. I just started watching The Staircase, another 10-part documentary about the death/possible murder of Kathleen Peterson. It has as many twists and turns as MaM does, and over a decade later that story isn't over yet either. Is The Staircase on Netflix as well?
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,580
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
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Post by stittsygirl on Feb 14, 2016 19:07:11 GMT
I too am really interested in what KZ has found. Apparently she and her team have been running a lot of forensic testing again, and she even tweeted something like it was "obvious" who the real killer was, but there's still a long list of potential suspects in my mind, so I don't know who she's focused on. But yeah, her reputation is impressive. I just started watching The Staircase, another 10-part documentary about the death/possible murder of Kathleen Peterson. It has as many twists and turns as MaM does, and over a decade later that story isn't over yet either. Is The Staircase on Netflix as well? It's on Sundance TV, that I'm getting through my cable service. I'm not sure if it's on YouTube or available elsewhere. ETA: it looks like Sundance has its own streaming service online, but you have to sign up. It offers a trial membership though. Sundance Now Doc Club
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Post by Scrapper100 on Feb 14, 2016 22:14:01 GMT
I would be interested how they explain the dna that supposedly came from his sweat. That's not something they collect so not something anyone could plant.
No idea if he is guilty or not but I don't believe it happened where they said it did.
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Post by stampbooker on Feb 14, 2016 22:24:34 GMT
From what I understand, that DNA they found wasn't specific to sweat, so it wouldn't have been that hard for them to come by.
julie
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