|
Post by rebelyelle on Jan 26, 2017 14:15:37 GMT
Here's a novel idea. Introduce a living wage so that Americans are actually attracted to the jobs illegals are coming here to take, thereby reducing a large part of the incentive. But he wouldn't do that, because it would actually help tax payers and hurt large corporations.
|
|
pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
|
Post by pudgygroundhog on Jan 26, 2017 14:35:27 GMT
Here's a novel idea. Introduce a living wage so that Americans are actually attracted to the jobs illegals are coming here to take, thereby reducing a large part of the incentive. But he wouldn't do that, because it would actually help tax payers and hurt large corporations. Given people's strong reactions to increasing the minimum wage, good luck with that. Americans want cheap goods, food, and services; yet don't seem to be willing to acknowledge how those things come about. We can't have it all.
|
|
|
Post by iamkristinl16 on Jan 26, 2017 14:43:01 GMT
Does anyone have info about why the fence/wall project was stopped previously?
|
|
|
Post by micheley on Jan 26, 2017 14:43:39 GMT
|
|
|
Post by rebelyelle on Jan 26, 2017 14:46:22 GMT
Here's a novel idea. Introduce a living wage so that Americans are actually attracted to the jobs illegals are coming here to take, thereby reducing a large part of the incentive. But he wouldn't do that, because it would actually help tax payers and hurt large corporations. Given people's strong reactions to increasing the minimum wage, good luck with that. Americans want cheap goods, food, and services; yet don't seem to be willing to acknowledge how those things come about. We can't have it all. You're right, of course. I forgot for a moment how much we like our cheap fast food and and cheap nannies and cheap cleaning services. God forbid we had to pay a living wage for such things. SaveSave
|
|
|
Post by scrapsotime on Jan 26, 2017 14:48:35 GMT
|
|
flute4peace
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,757
Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
|
Post by flute4peace on Jan 26, 2017 15:03:17 GMT
Stop the presses, hold the phone.
Folks, we've been totally taken for a ride on this wall thing.
The whatever billion is just an ESTIMATE to get the loan. And we all know how overinflated estimates can be. Especially when they don't take into account that we're not going to pay the contractors anyway, which in turn will create the promised jobs, but not have to actually pay the wages. And THEN we get to brag that we came in UNDER budget.
It's brilliant, really.
I feel like such a fool for falling for all the hype.
|
|
mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
|
Post by mallie on Jan 26, 2017 15:04:30 GMT
Simple solutions can be elegant and effective.
Simple solutions can also be stupid. And dangerous. And do the opposite of what was intended.
The most dangerous people are those so intellectually lazy that they decide simple ideas like building a wall will solve multinational problems rooted in many decades of social, political and economic flux. Because they don't want to think in logical fashion (which means eschewing easy bigotry), do research, and come to considered conclusions. It's too hard.
|
|
garcia5050
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,733
Location: So. Calif.
Jun 25, 2014 23:22:29 GMT
|
Post by garcia5050 on Jan 26, 2017 15:09:04 GMT
There was a while in the 40s and 59s where the bracero program was fairly successful. Migrant workers were able to come and work the crops and then go back home for the rest of the year. They made enough in those short months to support their families back home. It ended with some serious problems but maybe programs like that could be reworked and brought back.
I always remember this time when one of my cousins came to America, in a helicopter, wearing a blue sequined party dress. So, where there is a will, there is a way.
|
|
pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
|
Post by pudgygroundhog on Jan 26, 2017 15:11:06 GMT
There was a while in the 40s and 59s where the bracero program was fairly successful. Migrant workers were able to come and work the crops and then go back home for the rest of the year. They made enough in those short months to support their families back home. It ended with some serious problems but maybe programs like that could be reworked and brought back. I always remember this time when one of my cousins came to America, in a helicopter, wearing a blue sequined party dress. So, where there is a will, there is a way. I feel there is a bigger story in here you need to share.
|
|
|
Post by micheley on Jan 26, 2017 15:12:11 GMT
I THOUGHT WE TOLD THE SCIENTISTS TO STFU!!!!
|
|
garcia5050
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,733
Location: So. Calif.
Jun 25, 2014 23:22:29 GMT
|
Post by garcia5050 on Jan 26, 2017 15:15:16 GMT
My cousin was a pretty blue eyed blonde and had a boyfriend with money. Her mom, my aunt, became very ill. Her boyfriend told her to go home, and he would find a way back for her. He did! This was in the late 80s. We always wondered how much he payed for that.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Jan 26, 2017 15:22:29 GMT
Somebody needs to sit him down and watch the video of the tunnels from Mexico to the US. He can build all the wall he wants, but they are still going to be able to come to America illegally.. I believe it was ABC that showed one tunnel some time in the last month or so. It was huge, had electric and there was a motorcycle in it to get from one end to the other. The drug lords should be able to make a fortune charging people to use their tunnel to the US. He's just wasting our hard earned tax dollars building the damn wall. This is one of the reasons I'm in favor of decriminalization. Let's starve the drug cartels. Or, if we find the tunnels, blow them up.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Jan 26, 2017 15:27:04 GMT
I am against the wall because I think it is too expensive, I don't for a minute think that Mexico will pay for it, there are other ways that people can come in. My understanding is that there have been more deportations and fewer people coming in in recent years. I would build on what is working to make that happen. I do not want to see "dreamers" deported. Criminals? Yes. People who have been here for years and are productive members of society? No. I am mostly in the same opinion as you are on this. There are ways to make them pay, yes, it may take time yes. Do I think it is the best use of resources? No. I do think that we should send President Nieto a bill for every penny spent on deportation and detainment of any Mexican illegal immigrant. The same goes for every country for which we deport someone back to. Be it the Phillipines, Central America, or any other country. If we pick up an illegal alien from their country, they should foot the bill for sending them back. I do think we start with every single person every found of breaking a law, and sending them home. I do feel we should make legal immigration much easier. Much less expensive, but there must be punishment for breaking the law. Personally I think that a permanent ban on citizenship is one way to accomplish this. Along with that, a permanent ban on government assistance of any kind. Come here the right way, you get all the benefits. Come here the wrong way, you will never get any of them.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Jan 26, 2017 15:32:50 GMT
So, can someone answer a serious question I have? You're against the wall; you're against deporting people who are here illegally. How do you propose to deal with the never ending influx of people here illegally? How do you propose to deal with the financial drain on border states? How do you propose to deal with the crimes, the death, the injury and the losses caused by people who are here illegally (some of them whom have entered the country illegally several times?) I think people are turning to a wall because no solutions to these issues are proposed or enacted. Merely saying "enforce the laws better" means nothing, especially when you have cities refusing to abide by those laws. When you can show me that all those things put together cost more than $35 billion, I might consider it. How about all of the people who support the wall pay for it themselves? How much assistance could be given to needy families with that $35 billion? You know, things like health care, food, housing etc. For our citizens. Your friends & neighbors. Regular folks (like me) who work hard, live well frugally, but have to give up the medical care they need so they can pay the mortgage. Finally, where in the **** are we gonna get the $35 billion? It's not like it's laying around on the streets. I agree. I would love to see that money go to assistance instead. None for assisting illegals, but for American citizens and legal immigrants absolutely. We need to make America distasteful for illegal immigrants, but desirable for legal immigration.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Jan 26, 2017 15:34:18 GMT
Have any supporters of the wall considered what will happen to our next door neighbor if we suddenly cut off that aid??? Drug lords and our enemies getting a stronger hold so close to us. Doesn't that bother you at all? Think about the ripple effect to us if you don't care about those families. Think of all the good people effected there. That's Vincente Fox's responsibility to eradicate.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Jan 26, 2017 15:40:31 GMT
But supposing we do these things. How do we prevent even more illegals from just slipping into our country? The same way we could do it without a bajillion dollar wall, which will be symbolic more than anything. Criminals will find a way here. Tunnels, boat, overstay visa, etc. You deport criminals. Increase border security and processing agents and the like so that you have the ability to enforce laws. Help people that want to come here legally (or who have been here for year) - let them contribute and pay taxes and buy health insurance. As long as they aren't here committing crimes, and are contributing to society, they can stay. Anybody who commits a violent crime / drug related crime (I don't know where you draw the line - but I mean a serious crime like selling drugs, sex crimes, crimes with weapons - Not a traffic ticket), you go home. It seems like a fair compromise that both sides could meet in the middle and agree to. Identity theft if a crime. Or are they able to apply for a valid Social Security number? Anyone caught using a stolen SS number should also be deported. I also think that we pay for a lot of that by billing the countries we deport them back to, fining sanctuary cities for every illegal immigrant being protected by them, jailing officials who refuse to comply with federal immigration laws and fining every business for hiring them. Maybe off an incentive for any American reporting business hiring illegal immigrants and illegal immigrants themselves. Make it so there is not a welcome mat for illegal, or an ability to make a livelihood here. Open the doors wide open for legal immigration, give business a tax break for hiring them, and maybe even additional aid to cities helping legal immigrants establish themselves.
|
|
|
Post by terri on Jan 26, 2017 15:41:27 GMT
So, can someone answer a serious question I have? You're against the wall; you're against deporting people who are here illegally. How do you propose to deal with the never ending influx of people here illegally? How do you propose to deal with the financial drain on border states? How do you propose to deal with the crimes, the death, the injury and the losses caused by people who are here illegally (some of them whom have entered the country illegally several times?) I think people are turning to a wall because no solutions to these issues are proposed or enacted. Merely saying "enforce the laws better" means nothing, especially when you have cities refusing to abide by those laws. I haven't read the entire thread yet but wanted to answer your question as best I can. I have no problems with the deportation of criminals. Obama deported more illegal immigrants than any president in history and I supported his actions. (Though I'm way more concerned about the insane amount of violence against women in this country by American men.) I am against the wall because I do not believe it will work and I consider it a complete waste of money. I am also against deporting children who have spent their entire lives here and I have no desire to see families being torn apart. Also, agriculture in this country would be decimated by removing all illegal immigrants, as so many take the jobs Americans don't want. I really doubt too many people want to pay $20 for a bag of oranges, but that is what will happen if we don't have people here that will take the jobs that make the agriculture industry in this country work. I don't know what the solution is; immigration policy is extremely complicated and there are no easy answers. I think doing the wrong thing because we don't know the workable answer is irresponsible and will come back to hurt us all.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 20, 2024 18:37:57 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2017 15:44:27 GMT
Have any supporters of the wall considered what will happen to our next door neighbor if we suddenly cut off that aid??? Drug lords and our enemies getting a stronger hold so close to us. Doesn't that bother you at all? Think about the ripple effect to us if you don't care about those families. Think of all the good people effected there. That's Vincente Fox's responsibility to eradicate. How is it his job? He's not the president. Pena is.
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Jan 26, 2017 15:46:16 GMT
That's Vincente Fox's responsibility to eradicate. How is it his job? He's not the president. Pena is. Sorry my bad. I meant Pena.
|
|
|
Post by Darcy Collins on Jan 26, 2017 15:46:56 GMT
I'm not sure where the $50 million in aid figure is coming from. That's not far off the number in 2006 and 2007 ($66 million) - but it's been much higher in recent years ($142 million last year) - although not as high as in 2008 and 2009 when it approached a billion dollars(!) BTW, I think the wall is huge waste of resources and makes neither financial nor logistic sense. ETA oops forgot my data link: beta.foreignassistance.gov/explore/country/Mexico
|
|
|
Post by terri on Jan 26, 2017 15:48:07 GMT
I am against the wall because I think it is too expensive, I don't for a minute think that Mexico will pay for it, there are other ways that people can come in. My understanding is that there have been more deportations and fewer people coming in in recent years. I would build on what is working to make that happen. I do not want to see "dreamers" deported. Criminals? Yes. People who have been here for years and are productive members of society? No. I am mostly in the same opinion as you are on this. There are ways to make them pay, yes, it may take time yes. Do I think it is the best use of resources? No. I do think that we should send President Fox a bill for every penny spent on deportation and detainment of any Mexican illegal immigrant. The same goes for every country for which we deport someone back to. Be it the Phillipines, Central America, or any other country. If we pick up an illegal alien from their country, they should foot the bill for sending them back. I do think we start with every single person every found of breaking a law, and sending them home. I do feel we should make legal immigration much easier. Much less expensive, but there must be punishment for breaking the law. Personally I think that a permanent ban on citizenship is one way to accomplish this. Along with that, a permanent ban on government assistance of any kind. Come here the right way, you get all the benefits. Come here the wrong way, you will never get any of them. Vincente Fox hasn't been the president of Mexico for a decade. The President of Mexico is Enrique Peña Nieto.
|
|
|
Post by crazy4scraps on Jan 26, 2017 15:53:43 GMT
OMFG. I couldn't even finish it my blood pressure was rising. he never answers anything! just turns it into a "how great am I, people love me" story, literally! take this example:
"DAVID MUIR: Mr. President, I just have one more question on this. And it's -- it's bigger picture. You took some heat after your visit to the CIA in front of that hallowed wall, 117 stars -- of those lost at the CIA. You talked about other things. But you also talked about crowd size at the inauguration, about the size of your rallies, about covers on Time magazine. And I just wanna ask you when does all of that matter just a little less? When do you let it roll off your back now that you're the president? ((bolding mine))
(OVERTALK)
PRESIDENT TRUMP: OK, so I'm glad you asked. So, I went to the CIA, my first step. I have great respect for the people in intelligence and CIA. I'm -- I don't have a lot of respect for, in particular one of the leaders. But that's okay. But I have a lot of respect for the people in the CIA.
That speech was a home run. That speech, if you look at Fox, OK, I'll mention you -- we see what Fox said. They said it was one of the great speeches. They showed the people applauding and screaming and -- and they were all CIA. There was -- somebody was asking Sean -- "Well, were they Trump people that were put--" we don't have Trump people. They were CIA people.
That location was given to me. Mike Pence went up before me, paid great homage to the wall. I then went up, paid great homage to the wall. I then spoke to the crowd. I got a standing ovation. In fact, they said it was the biggest standing ovation since Peyton Manning had won the Super Bowl and they said it was equal. I got a standing ovation. It lasted for a long period of time. What you do is take -- take out your tape -- you probably ran it live. I know when I do good speeches. I know when I do bad speeches. That speech was a total home run. They loved it. I could've ...
(OVERTALK) "
and then he KEEPS going on about much people loved the speech, before turning it into a "you and your network were demeaning and media blah blah blah.. never addresses the question.
"PRESIDENT TRUMP: People loved it. They loved it. They gave me a standing ovation for a long period of time. They never even sat down, most of them, during the speech. There was love in the room. You and other networks covered it very inaccurately. I hate to say this to you and you probably won't put it on but turn on Fox and see how it was covered. And see how people respond to that speech.
That speech was a good speech. And you and a couple of other networks tried to downplay that speech. And it was very, very unfortunate that you did. The people of the CIA loved the speech. If I was going to take a vote in that room, there were, like, 300, 350 people, over 1,000 wanted to be there but they couldn't. They were all CIA people. I would say I would've gotten 350 to nothing in that room. That's what the vote would've been. That speech was a big hit, a big success -- success. And then I came back and I watched you on television and a couple of others. "
I just can't.
Wooly crap that's the craziest one yet. And the whole entire thing was like that! Ten pounds of crazy in a five pound sack.
|
|
|
Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 26, 2017 16:11:34 GMT
|
|
|
Post by mrssmith on Jan 26, 2017 16:16:01 GMT
The wall will not work and is the biggest waste of taxpayer money. For 10 years, DH and I dealt with the immigration system....for 10 years!!!!!! I am actually FOR immigration reform BECAUSE of what we went through. It would cost WAY less to overhaul the system to make it more efficient. Currently, when you start the process, goes through at least three different departments (Department of State, Homeland Security, FBI). Files get misplaced or lost and not only that, the fees are astronomical! Correct me if I am wrong, but the terror attacks have all been committed by people that came here legally. Many of the illegals are visa overstays. Fix the freaking system to make it WORK! I mean jeez, FED EX and UPS can track packages but the government can't keep up with visas or these files?!?!?!?! Two most recent ones were actually American citizens (the guy in San Bernadino was born in the US, but his wife came legally; Orlando guy also a US citizen, born here). Not to mention all the other mass shootings perpetrated by US citizens (white guys, not Muslims). Yes re: overstaying visas. Maybe we should have walls around all our airports? I've heard some stories though of Eastern Europeans sent back home right after landing at O'Hare because they were suspected of wanting to overstay their tourist visas. And re: the land - my understanding is that there is also a large portion that is totally inhospitable (mountainous, desert - also no roads/infrastructure...) and in addition to Native American lands, there are private ranches. This article outlines some of the issues:.“It’s a huge effort to construct anything at the border,” said one DHS official, who has worked in Republican and Democratic administrations and spoke on the condition of anonymity because Trump’s plan is part of a political campaign. “You have lots of requirements to do construction: the environmental piece, engineering assessments. And a private landowner might not want fencing.” Save
|
|
|
Post by jonda1974 on Jan 26, 2017 16:23:37 GMT
I am mostly in the same opinion as you are on this. There are ways to make them pay, yes, it may take time yes. Do I think it is the best use of resources? No. I do think that we should send President Fox a bill for every penny spent on deportation and detainment of any Mexican illegal immigrant. The same goes for every country for which we deport someone back to. Be it the Phillipines, Central America, or any other country. If we pick up an illegal alien from their country, they should foot the bill for sending them back. I do think we start with every single person every found of breaking a law, and sending them home. I do feel we should make legal immigration much easier. Much less expensive, but there must be punishment for breaking the law. Personally I think that a permanent ban on citizenship is one way to accomplish this. Along with that, a permanent ban on government assistance of any kind. Come here the right way, you get all the benefits. Come here the wrong way, you will never get any of them. Vincente Fox hasn't been the president of Mexico for a decade. The President of Mexico is Enrique Peña Nieto. Thanks. LOL. I know that. My morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet.
|
|
Judy26
Pearl Clutcher
MOTFY Bitchy Nursemaid
Posts: 2,834
Location: NW PA
Jun 25, 2014 23:50:38 GMT
|
Post by Judy26 on Jan 26, 2017 16:28:38 GMT
Is anyone else thinking that with the way things are going the wall is actually a way to keep Americans in the country? I travel to Mexico at least once a year and I seriously said to DH yesterday that perhaps now that we are retired we should consider moving to the area of Mexico we fell in love with. Then again, I may be watching too much HGTV to escape all of the mind numbing Trump brouhaha.
|
|
|
Post by crimsoncat05 on Jan 26, 2017 16:54:46 GMT
Given people's strong reactions to increasing the minimum wage, good luck with that. Americans want cheap goods, food, and services; yet don't seem to be willing to acknowledge how those things come about. We can't have it all. You're right, of course. I forgot for a moment how much we like our cheap fast food and and cheap nannies and cheap cleaning services. God forbid we had to pay a living wage for such things. SaveSave...and cheap construction workers, and cheap landscape workers, and cheap meat-packing plant workers, and cheap farm labor for picking vegetables / fruits, and, and, and...
Pretty much anything that can cause you to either: 1) sweat, 2) get dirty, 3) work in less-than-ideal working conditions, 4) have less profit for the company, or 5) is actually VERY hard work.
|
|
|
Post by micheley on Jan 26, 2017 16:56:42 GMT
|
|
Anita
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,646
Location: Kansas City -ish
Jun 27, 2014 2:38:58 GMT
|
Post by Anita on Jan 26, 2017 17:00:14 GMT
So, can someone answer a serious question I have? You're against the wall; you're against deporting people who are here illegally. How do you propose to deal with the never ending influx of people here illegally? How do you propose to deal with the financial drain on border states? How do you propose to deal with the crimes, the death, the injury and the losses caused by people who are here illegally (some of them whom have entered the country illegally several times?) I think people are turning to a wall because no solutions to these issues are proposed or enacted. Merely saying "enforce the laws better" means nothing, especially when you have cities refusing to abide by those laws. For the record, I think if you are here illegally, you should be deported, period. As for this idiotic wall, though, let's apply your logic elsewhere. So, can someone answer a serious question I have? You're against stricter gun control; you're against providing government healthcare to combat mental illness. How do you propose to deal with the never ending influx of guns here illegally, especially across state lines? How do you propose to deal with the financial drain on states that deal with the fallout? How do you propose to deal with the crimes, the death, the injury and the losses caused by guns that are owned illegally or used by the mentally ill? I think people throw up their hands and refuse to try to find a solution because no new solutions to these issues are proposed or enacted (actually, they're blocked by rabid lobbyists). Merely saying "enforce the laws better" means nothing, especially when you have lawmakers and lobbyists who think a school full of dead kids is acceptable carnage in the "war on the second amendment." I just think we have so many better places to use that money than on a stupid wall that will accomplish nothing. Unless you're a wall builder by trade. I'm sure they're pretty excited about this plan. Let's help our veterans. Let's help the mentally ill so gun violence goes down. The wall is stupid and pointless.
|
|