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Post by aj2hall on Sept 7, 2020 0:52:06 GMT
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Post by pixiechick on Sept 7, 2020 1:17:14 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 2:05:48 GMT
FTR, sources who did not hear the comments aren't comparable to those who did. Your sources are not what I would consider credible witnesses either. I mean, if you have to go to Miller as a reliable witness, that pretty much says it all. 45 has made it clear in so many ways and in so many interactions that he simply does not have any respect for the military. I am not interested in trying to convince you. I am simply stating your case lacks credibility based on the sources quoted. Sources who weren't there can still vouch for Trump on the probability that he did not say that based on what they have seen him do and say. Those accounts back up the sources who were there that say it didn't happen. Sources who hide like cowards in the shadows aren't comparable to those who stand up in the light and say who they are when they share what they witnessed. There are many actions and interactions that show Trump does care for the military. That's okay, we don't have to convince each other. It's enough that we can show facts that we're aware of without a huge battle. Thank you. Ask Lt. Col. Vindman what standing up 'in the light' gets you. Or the Ukraine whistleblower who did his job under Federal whistleblower protection laws but had his name retweeted by the president. The coward is a man who sits on twitter and tells 85 million followers how people who do their job are 'never Trumpers' when doing their job exposes his dishonesty. Then cue the death threats to those people who stood up in the light. Btw you state: "Sources who weren't there can still vouch for Trump on the probability that he did not say that...". By that logic then of course you must accept that the probability of him saying what was stated in the Atlantic is also just as likely. |
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Post by aj2hall on Sept 7, 2020 2:08:08 GMT
Thank you for the links. However, I think his record of disparaging the military and statements he’s made speak louder than a few opinions. he diverted funds from the military for his pet project, the border wall. The alleged bounty on troops in Afghanistan? He’s done absolutely nothing and remained very quiet about it. www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2020/01/17/trump-blasted-top-military-generals-as-a-bunch-of-dopes-and-babies-according-to-new-book/www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/todaysdebate/2020/05/05/trump-says-he-supports-troops-his-record-says-otherwise-our-view/4870524002/“In January, after Iran launched a missile attack that left dozens of U.S. troops with mild traumatic brain injuries, Trump dismissed the wounds as mere headaches, despite the fact that a generation of veterans suffered such wounds, some with lasting deficits, from blast exposure during years of combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. Trump has also been stingy about visiting troops in those war zones. And he seems to have little time for the war-wounded. Where President Barack Obama went to military hospitals 29 times in eight years, Trump has made three visits in more than three years, according to CBS News correspondent and unofficial White House historian Mark Knoller.” www.chicagotribune.com/columns/steve-chapman/ct-column-trump-military-saudi-iran-chapman-20200115-vcawrmqywba5lfeljqmaij7ota-story.htmlOn Veterans Day 2018, Trump didn’t bother visiting Arlington National Cemetery, claiming he was “extremely busy on calls for the country.” They should not have been surprised. When Trump looks at the military, he’s not thinking: “What can I do for our troops?” He’s thinking, “What can our troops do for me?” That exactly. He treats the military like his own private army, just like a dictator would. |
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,613 
Location: In the leaves and rain.
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Post by stittsygirl on Sept 7, 2020 2:37:27 GMT
My husband, still in Afghanistan, told me today that the younger military members he works with there despise Trump. The only Trumpers he knows there are other contractors his age or older. This squares up with the recent poll showing more military members will choose Biden for president, and that was before the article about Trump disparaging the military came out.
My husband and I have 37 years of military service between us (6 for me, 31 for him), including four war deployments (1 for me, three for him). I’ve seen nothing that convinces me that Trump sincerely cares about military members and their families. I’ve seen nothing that convinces me that he cares about anyone outside his own corrupt circle, period. He’s all about what is in it for HIM. Anyone who continues to support or tries to defend this criminally inept mango can just bite me!
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Post by dizzycheermom on Sept 7, 2020 2:50:12 GMT
Six other officials in the Trump administration went on record (unlike those who made the allegations against Trump) and directly disputed their account of what happened. Four who were with the president that day. They did it despite death threats or cancel culture. I have more respect for those that stand up with their account since doing so is more credible than hiding. Hiding behind anonymity tells me you don't have enough faith in your "allegations" to be a stand up honest witness. Jordan Karem "This is not even close to being factually accurate. Plain and simple, it just never happened." "Again, this is 100% false. I was next to @potus the whole day! The President was greatly disappointed when told we couldn’t fly there. He was incredibly eager to honor our Fallen Heroes." Sarah Huckabee Sanders "The Atlantic story on @realdonaldtrump is total BS. I was actually there and one of the people part of the discussion – this never happened. I have sat in the room when our President called family members after their sons were killed in action and it was heart-wrenching… These were some of the moments I witnessed the President show his heart and demonstrate how much he respects the selfless and courageous men and women of our military. I am disgusted by this false attack. Hogan Gidley "These are disgusting, grotesque, reprehensible lies. I was there in Paris and the President never said those things. In fact, he would never even think such vile thoughts because I know from firsthand knowledge that President Trump absolutely loves, respects, and reveres the brave men and women of the United States military. He always has and always will. These weak, pathetic, cowardly background ‘sources’ do not have the courage or decency to put their names to these false accusations because they know how completely ludicrous they are. It’s sickening that they would hide in the shadows to knowingly try and hurt the morale of our great military simply for an attack on a political opponent." Dan Scavino "I was with POTUS in France, with Sarah, and have been at his side throughout it all. Complete lies by ‘anonymous sources’ that were ‘dropped’ just as he begins to campaign (and surge). A disgraceful attempt to smear POTUS, 60 days before the Presidential Election! Disgusting!!" Steven Miller "The president deeply wanted to attend the memorial event in question and was deeply displeased by the bad weather call.The next day, he spoke at Suresnes American Cemetery in the pouring rain and refused an umbrella. No one has a bigger, more loving, or more loyal heart for American veterans and fallen heroes than our president." That one debunks the accusation that he was worried about his hair. Also, FOIA documents back up the call to not LET him travel due to the weather. Lt. General Keith Kellogg "The Atlantic story is completely false. Absolutely lacks merit. I’ve been by the President’s side. He has always shown the highest respect to our active duty troops and veterans with utmost respect paid to those who have given the ultimate sacrifice and those wounded in battle." I have a question for you...not trying to be combative or anything, just trying to understand. You keep talking about honesty and credibility - yet it seems you support someone who lies multiple times on a daily basis. Just as one example - he says he didn't call McCain a loser but his own tweets and retweets show the truth. And MANY of those you just quoted are habitual liars as well. So I don't understand the double standard? Just wondering if you missed my questions or just chose not to answer? I definitely am not trying to argue in anyway, but you seem very hung up on honesty, integrity and facts, but choose to support someone who has lied more than any other president in our history and has shown a definite lack of integrity and morals. I promise I won't try to change your mind, I am just trying to understand?? |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
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Post by sassyangel on Sept 7, 2020 4:20:04 GMT
The most telling thing about this to me?
They had Melania tweet in his defense.
That’s fairly unprecedented, all I’m saying.
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Post by pixiechick on Sept 7, 2020 5:43:04 GMT
I have a question for you...not trying to be combative or anything, just trying to understand. You keep talking about honesty and credibility - yet it seems you support someone who lies multiple times on a daily basis. Just as one example - he says he didn't call McCain a loser but his own tweets and retweets show the truth. And MANY of those you just quoted are habitual liars as well. So I don't understand the double standard? Just wondering if you missed my questions or just chose not to answer? I definitely am not trying to argue in anyway, but you seem very hung up on honesty, integrity and facts, but choose to support someone who has lied more than any other president in our history and has shown a definite lack of integrity and morals. I promise I won't try to change your mind, I am just trying to understand?? I don't understand why he said he didn't call McCain a loser, I remember when he did. It was a clumsy, rudely inappropriate, response to McCain calling people that came to hear candidate Trump, crazies. Which was also rudely inappropriate, but overlooked and then forgotten. The only memory people have is of bad Trumps response. Maybe you can understand the "hypocrisy" when you look at the same type "hypocrisy" of supporting Biden who has done so many of the things objected to in Trump. I sincerely hope that helps in understanding. Both sides are doing what they accuse the other side of doing. Politicians, media AND voters. I think it's a part of what's dividing us so badly. We accuse others of doing the same thing that exists in our actions. It exists in us, we just don't or won't see it . |
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Post by aj2hall on Sept 7, 2020 7:05:08 GMT
I don't understand why he said he didn't call McCain a loser, I remember when he did. It was a clumsy, rudely inappropriate, response to McCain calling people that came to hear candidate Trump, crazies. Which was also rudely inappropriate, but overlooked and then forgotten. The only memory people have is of bad Trumps response. Maybe you can understand the "hypocrisy" when you look at the same type "hypocrisy" of supporting Biden who has done so many of the things objected to in Trump. I sincerely hope that helps in understanding. Both sides are doing what they accuse the other side of doing. Politicians, media AND voters. I think it's a part of what's dividing us so badly. We accuse others of doing the same thing that exists in our actions. It exists in us, we just don't or won't see it . I’m sorry but I disagree that McCain calling Trump supporters crazies is even remotely equivalent to the insults that Trump hurled at McCain. He even insulted McCain after his death. He also told many falsehoods about McCain’s history and record. www.npr.org/2019/03/21/705598385/among-false-claims-trump-attacked-mccain-for-failing-veteransI like people who weren’t captured. A special assistant said of McCain “It doesn’t matter, he’s dying anyways.” A campaign staffer tweeted that trump would celebrate from home when he was uninvited to McCains funeral. Trump referred to McCain as last in his class at the Naval Academy. (He wasn’t) Sorry, but someone who dodged the draft with bone spurs and someone who does not have the courage to serve his country has not earned the right to disparage another person’s honorable service. Trump is so petty that the White House asked the Navy to move a battleship named after McCain out of sight during Trump’s visit to Japan. Some of the worst insults were from his staff, but he’s responsible for them and the message they send. He could have disagreed with them or even fired them, but he chose to let their comments stand. Recently, he was given an opportunity to apologize for his comments about McCain, but he chose not to and insisted he was right. There also an element of truth to what McCain said. Trump has brought out some of the most racist, homophobic, sexist, zenophobic far right supporters into the open. Yes, McCain could have phrased it more diplomatically. But, there has been a shift in the Republican Party because of Trump and it’s not a positive one. www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2019/08/14/trump-and-racism-what-do-the-data-say/“When the data show that President Trump’s support stems from racist and sexist beliefs, and that his election emboldened Americans to engage in racist behavior, it is the responsibility of social scientists and other political observers to say so.” Trump has told over 18,000 lies. How many has Biden told? Not even remotely close. When has Biden done anything racist? When has Biden insulted the military? what exactly has Biden done that Trump has also been accused of? Sorry, but I think you’re comparing apples to oranges. I don’t see the hypocrisy. |
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Post by lucyg on Sept 7, 2020 7:31:41 GMT
pixiechick Just wondering if you missed my questions or just chose not to answer? I definitely am not trying to argue in anyway, but you seem very hung up on honesty, integrity and facts, but choose to support someone who has lied more than any other president in our history and has shown a definite lack of integrity and morals. I promise I won't try to change your mind, I am just trying to understand?? I don't understand why he said he didn't call McCain a loser, I remember when he did. It was a clumsy, rudely inappropriate, response to McCain calling people that came to hear candidate Trump, crazies. Which was also rudely inappropriate, but overlooked and then forgotten. The only memory people have is of bad Trumps response. Maybe you can understand the "hypocrisy" when you look at the same type "hypocrisy" of supporting Biden who has done so many of the things objected to in Trump. I sincerely hope that helps in understanding. Both sides are doing what they accuse the other side of doing. Politicians, media AND voters. I think it's a part of what's dividing us so badly. We accuse others of doing the same thing that exists in our actions. It exists in us, we just don't or won't see it . I don’t think there’s any equivalence between them. For every foolish thing Biden has said or done (and probably apologized for, and strove to do better in future), Trump has said or done a thousand awful things. The end result is going to be the destruction of our democracy, if we don’t get him gone NOW. But I don’t guess I’ll be convincing you of that, so carry on. Just remember my words when free, fair elections are a thing of the past. |
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Post by gar on Sept 7, 2020 8:24:10 GMT
"The press turned canceling the cemetery visit into a story that Trump was afraid of the rain and took glee in pointing out that other world leaders traveled around during the day. Of course, none of them were the President of the United States, but the press didn't understand that rules for US Presidents are different from rules for 190 other leaders who don't command the world's greatest military forces." Errr, why are they different exactly? (And of course that would depend on which Press you're asking.) And what has the size of their country's military forces got to do with it, in practical terms?? Would you care to reply to this point please? No other president has been derided the world over like this man. There's a reason. We're not all wrong. |
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Post by hop2 on Sept 7, 2020 12:09:04 GMT
I’m always amazed at people keep supporting & twisting themselves to defend someone who has repeatedly ignored & weakened the constitution.
If you disagree with a part of the constitution we have legal mechanisms for changing it. But blatantly ignoring it isn’t one of them.
No ‘both parties’ do not denigrate the constitution on a daily basis from the minute they take office.
So much for defending the constitution. It is saddening really that so many American people are so willing to trash the constitution in support of a man who can’t seem to tell the truth if he tried. A man who could not care less about them and actively works to destroy their financial well-being.
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Post by peasapie on Sept 7, 2020 12:14:53 GMT
Why did you change your original name here on this forum? |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Sept 7, 2020 13:06:13 GMT
pixiechick Just wondering if you missed my questions or just chose not to answer? I definitely am not trying to argue in anyway, but you seem very hung up on honesty, integrity and facts, but choose to support someone who has lied more than any other president in our history and has shown a definite lack of integrity and morals. I promise I won't try to change your mind, I am just trying to understand?? I don't understand why he said he didn't call McCain a loser, I remember when he did. It was a clumsy, rudely inappropriate, response to McCain calling people that came to hear candidate Trump, crazies. Which was also rudely inappropriate, but overlooked and then forgotten. The only memory people have is of bad Trumps response. Maybe you can understand the "hypocrisy" when you look at the same type "hypocrisy" of supporting Biden who has done so many of the things objected to in Trump. I sincerely hope that helps in understanding. Both sides are doing what they accuse the other side of doing. Politicians, media AND voters. I think it's a part of what's dividing us so badly. We accuse others of doing the same thing that exists in our actions. It exists in us, we just don't or won't see it . Because he’s a pathological liar. He lies brazenly, even when there is concrete proof otherwise. It’s in his makeup, he literally can’t help himself. |
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Sept 7, 2020 13:34:02 GMT
Wow, what an interesting thread I missed. It’s got all kinds of bells ringing in my head, but I’ll just grab at one of them. Hiding behind anonymity tells me you don't have enough faith in your "allegations" to be a stand up honest witness.
Journalism sources choosing anonymity because they don’t have faith in their own allegations is an unusual interpretation of the reasons behind anonymity. There are scores of anonymous sources and reliable journalists who would tell you differently. Historically, some of the biggest stories were based on vetted anonymous sources - history changing stories that were ultimately verified. The unprecedented personal-loyalty-to-this-president-at-all-costs expectation in this administration, and the continuing, horrifying theme of presidential vengeance, has even career federal employees afraid for their jobs. Believe me when I say I know of what I speak. I can’t disdain people for “not standing up in the light” when the consequences to their life and livelihood are what they have become. (Then there’s what the Trump loyalty-at all-costs has wreaked within the Republican Party, some of whose members have been methodically, often gleefully, ruined for standing in the light you expect them to step into.) For some reason, dismissing this journalistic technique, ignoring its historical relevance, and flinging “cowering in the dark” ridicule has become a theme only in the last four years. Nobody should be afraid of an American president and his posse. If that’s “cowering,” a word I wouldn’t choose, I get why it’s done. Overall, my impression is you argue that this president is no less honest than anyone else in government. But you seem to believe him and believe those who defend him (or are paid to defend him...or are crafting a shift in American ideology by using him as a Useful Idiot) more than others, so my takeaway has to be that you believe Mr. Trump is actually more honest than most. That’s also an unusual interpretation of this moment in history. |
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Post by dizzycheermom on Sept 7, 2020 14:32:41 GMT
pixiechick Just wondering if you missed my questions or just chose not to answer? I definitely am not trying to argue in anyway, but you seem very hung up on honesty, integrity and facts, but choose to support someone who has lied more than any other president in our history and has shown a definite lack of integrity and morals. I promise I won't try to change your mind, I am just trying to understand?? I don't understand why he said he didn't call McCain a loser, I remember when he did. It was a clumsy, rudely inappropriate, response to McCain calling people that came to hear candidate Trump, crazies. Which was also rudely inappropriate, but overlooked and then forgotten. The only memory people have is of bad Trumps response. Maybe you can understand the "hypocrisy" when you look at the same type "hypocrisy" of supporting Biden who has done so many of the things objected to in Trump. I sincerely hope that helps in understanding. Both sides are doing what they accuse the other side of doing. Politicians, media AND voters. I think it's a part of what's dividing us so badly. We accuse others of doing the same thing that exists in our actions. It exists in us, we just don't or won't see it . I appreciate your response. And I know it is difficult when this thread is mostly opposed to Trump. But that is the crux of it for me. It is not supporting Biden as much as it is opposing Trump. I don't see any hypocrisy when I feel that no president has been as immoral, racist, dishonest... as our current one. The changes that I have seen in our country the last 3.5 years terrify me and I'm not sure that we will survive 4. But the beauty of our country, at least it has been, is that we each get our opinion and to cast our own vote. I appreciate you coming on and having a discussion, it is much needed from both sides in our current climate. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Sept 7, 2020 16:20:24 GMT
“When the data show that President Trump’s support stems from racist and sexist beliefs, and that his election emboldened Americans to engage in racist behavior, it is the responsibility of social scientists and other political observers to say so.” He and his father were charged by the Feds and paid fines for racial discrimination in the 1970s!! He has a major history! |
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J u l e e
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,531
Location: Cincinnati
Jun 28, 2014 2:50:47 GMT
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Post by J u l e e on Sept 7, 2020 17:35:22 GMT
I don't understand why he said he didn't call McCain a loser, I remember when he did. It was a clumsy, rudely inappropriate, response to McCain calling people that came to hear candidate Trump, crazies. Which was also rudely inappropriate, but overlooked and then forgotten. The only memory people have is of bad Trumps response. Maybe you can understand the "hypocrisy" when you look at the same type "hypocrisy" of supporting Biden who has done so many of the things objected to in Trump. I sincerely hope that helps in understanding. Both sides are doing what they accuse the other side of doing. Politicians, media AND voters. I think it's a part of what's dividing us so badly. We accuse others of doing the same thing that exists in our actions. It exists in us, we just don't or won't see it . I appreciate your response. And I know it is difficult when this thread is mostly opposed to Trump. But that is the crux of it for me. It is not supporting Biden as much as it is opposing Trump. I don't see any hypocrisy when I feel that no president has been as immoral, racist, dishonest... as our current one. The changes that I have seen in our country the last 3.5 years terrify me and I'm not sure that we will survive 4. But the beauty of our country, at least it has been, is that we each get our opinion and to cast our own vote. I appreciate you coming on and having a discussion, it is much needed from both sides in our current climate. I agree 100% and appreciate that you shared your opinion respectfully without calling names and being a jerk. I am fascinated by and truly want to hear the reasoning for the support of our president. Because I cannot imagine it, I am interested in hearing from people who stand behind him. It often seems like there is just a whole lot of mindless glee, like cheering on your favorite WWF wrestler when he breaks a chair over the referee’s head, with Trump followers. It is interesting to hear from someone who is aware of the actual goings on in the administration and wants to stand up and defend him. It can’t be easy. |
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pinklady
Drama Llama
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Post by pinklady on Sept 7, 2020 18:00:15 GMT
Why did you change your original name here on this forum? because she’s a big pussy |
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Post by aj2hall on Sept 7, 2020 20:50:35 GMT
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Post by cade387 on Sept 7, 2020 21:08:02 GMT
Six other officials in the Trump administration went on record (unlike those who made the allegations against Trump) and directly disputed their account of what happened. Four who were with the president that day. They did it despite death threats or cancel culture. I have more respect for those that stand up with their account since doing so is more credible than hiding. Hiding behind anonymity tells me you don't have enough faith in your "allegations" to be a stand up honest witness. If the sources are still active military I don’t believe they are allowed to go on record against the Commander in Chief without facing disciplinary actions. It doesn’t mean they are not honest. |
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Post by LiLi on Sept 7, 2020 22:15:34 GMT
Maybe you can understand the "hypocrisy" when you look at the same type "hypocrisy" of supporting Biden who has done so many of the things objected to in Trump. I sincerely hope that helps in understanding. Both sides are doing what they accuse the other side of doing. Politicians, media AND voters. I think it's a part of what's dividing us so badly. We accuse others of doing the same thing that exists in our actions. It exists in us, we just don't or won't see it . Oh! Since they're the same, and thinking otherwise means I am a hypocrite, can you help me? I missed the video or quote where Trump admitted his faults, recognized the error of his ways and vowed to be different; to change for the better. Can you link me to it? I also missed some of the rape cases and underage sex charges against Biden, how about those? The trumps being sued for fraudulent business schemes, I didn't find Biden's past scheme suits, either? |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Sept 7, 2020 22:28:48 GMT
LiLi you handled that well. Let us not forget the 4-5 bankruptcies, surely that was not the Bidens!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 4:56:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 14:24:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 14:26:07 GMT
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naby64
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Post by naby64 on Sept 8, 2020 14:50:45 GMT
I was talking to my YDS on Friday night. Sailor dude. His sister is very liberal leaning. She is fiscally cons. but for all social norms, liberal. So we were all on a Google Duo call. I just popped out and asked him what he thought of DT. He stopped for a minute and just said "I don't". I also know he doesn't vote so his opinion or non-opinion of DT won't matter. I also am seeing more disillusionment from him than I have in the past. I DO contribute that to the leadership(or lack thereof) of the country spilling down into leaders in his command.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Sept 8, 2020 14:57:47 GMT
I think anyone who is still saying “both sides” and defending Trump is being willfully ignorant at best. I don’t see that as name calling. It is the truth. You have to realize by now that anyone who speaks up against trump is denigrated and ruined. While those who back him are heralded by him. Them giving their names is not proof of them telling the truth when it comes to this administration. It is just the opposite.
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Post by marmargirl on Sept 8, 2020 15:44:42 GMT
This would be a start  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 16:48:48 GMT
pixiechick Just wondering if you missed my questions or just chose not to answer? I definitely am not trying to argue in anyway, but you seem very hung up on honesty, integrity and facts, but choose to support someone who has lied more than any other president in our history and has shown a definite lack of integrity and morals. I promise I won't try to change your mind, I am just trying to understand?? Maybe you can understand the "hypocrisy" when you look at the same type "hypocrisy" of supporting Biden who has done so many of the things objected to in Trump. I sincerely hope that helps in understanding. Both sides are doing what they accuse the other side of doing. Politicians, media AND voters. I think it's a part of what's dividing us so badly. We accuse others of doing the same thing that exists in our actions. It exists in us, we just don't or won't see it . Are you really describing both as clumsy and rudely inappropriate ...really? You think that calling a group of people who supported a liar and a failed businessman to the highest office in the land as crazies is equal to a person that was tortured to the limit of human endurance for over five years, and during that time, 2 of those years they were in solitary confinement. The whole world called them crazies and at the beginning we all thought it was a joke until it became a reality and that, I can assure you is CRAZY......... . ADJECTIVE
If you describe someone or something as crazy, you think they are very foolish or strange. |
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