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Post by iamkristinl16 on Sept 14, 2020 12:49:18 GMT
Sorry, I fixed it. Didn’t take enough code out. What if they don’t explicitly endorse racism though and are Trump supporters for whatever unknown reason? What about those people? I think that people need to rethink their definition of racism. Have you read "White Fragility"? The author talks about how the definition of racism has changed over the years (among other things). In the last 40 years or so, the overtly racist comments and actions of the past have become unacceptable. But that doesn't mean that there isn't racism. I was naïve about this until not long ago as well but the more I learn, the more I see. Attitudes and policies perpetuate racism every day. Many people still claim "I'm not a racist" while supporting Trump (a racist) because they think if someone isn't in the KKK or actively saying "I hate people of color" they are fine. That isn't true. However, since Trump has been in office I would say that the overtly racist behaviors are becoming ok again. If someone votes for him, they are voting for that. There is no way around it. lauradrumm your friend was right about one thing...one of you will be on the wrong side of history. And it isn't you. |
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Post by spitfiregirl on Sept 14, 2020 13:03:38 GMT
I’ve heard a lot of them say the media is just making that up or the democrats have done much worse and they’re all just a bunch of hypocrites. Or they all just want to take our guns away and they’re making up lies. But they are adults right? Adults that want to take advantage of the good parts of living in community, and not have any responsibility for the community? Sure, who wouldn't. But how does that work actually? Doesn't that mean they are wanting others to do their work for them? I liken it to driving by a terrible accident that just happened. There are things that need to be done by the community. There are calls that need to be made to 911. Traffic can be directed around the scene of the accident, so that others don't become casualties. Road flares can be set up. Pulling over onto the berm before the accident and putting your hazard lights on to alert oncoming traffic in time. Run over to the scene and render first aid, particularly if you have training. Even if you don't, if you are the only one there, you can possibly slow blood loss and buy time for the EMTs to arrive. Administer CPR. Perform mouth to mouth breathing. Comfort children who may be observing from the back seat. Use a fire extinguisher. Grab a spare blanket from your own car trunk and let them wrap up in it to help prevent going into shock. So many parts and roles we all play. You know the one role I will never respect? The person who shudders and looks away, drives off and does absolutely nothing. Just drives on because they don't want to think about it. Same thing with adults taking the initiative to be informed citizens. You don't get a pass when you willfully choose to stay oblivious. I disagree. Some people are not mentally capable of looking. They must drive away or they would shatter mentally. Not everyone has the strength to deal with what's going on today. They have to look away or they will not survive this chaos. |
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 14, 2020 13:15:28 GMT
I think that people need to rethink their definition of racism. Have you read "White Fragility"? The author talks about how the definition of racism has changed over the years (among other things). I haven’t read it. Thanks, I will check it out. ETA: Ordered off Amazon just now, looks interesting. |
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 14, 2020 13:18:31 GMT
It sounds to me like the general view on this thread is that everyone who supports Trump is a racist whether they know it or not, either overt or complicit. Would you say this is an accurate summation? Can someone be a Trump supporter and not be a racist?
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 12:33:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2020 13:42:10 GMT
It sounds to me like the general view on this thread is that everyone who supports Trump is a racist whether they know it or not, either overt or complicit. Would you say this is an accurate summation? Can someone be a Trump supporter and not be a racist? The supporters I know personally are all racist. A few are hateful and use racial slurs. Others are more subtle in it but definitely look down on POC. One was part of a committee that was actively fighting low income housing in their small town because "it attracts the wrong people." She lives in a town that is a private lake town and is 99% white. She has flat out said she wants to keep it that way. The ones that claim they are not racist are at least selfish. Among the ones I don't know that well but do have a connection to, the prevailing attitude seems to be "I have mine, fuck the rest of you." They are the ones that do not want any social programs of any kind. |
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Post by sleepingbooty on Sept 14, 2020 13:56:54 GMT
It sounds to me like the general view on this thread is that everyone who supports Trump is a racist whether they know it or not, either overt or complicit. Would you say this is an accurate summation? Can someone be a Trump supporter and not be a racist? I'm not American nor do I live in the USA so I'm definitely not in the greatest position to give a valid opinion on this matter. For simplicity's sake, I'm assuming we're setting aside the obvious racist support Trump is given by a significant part of the (white) American electorate and focusing instead on the hypothesis of voters supporting him for other policies despite the racist rethoric. At this stage of Trump's presidency, lending him one's support for policies that aren't racially embedded (or not directly anyway - I don't want to enter the debate of the possibility that current financial policies being the product of long-standing social views that are in part the consequences and/or causes of racist views) requires actively ignoring all the other socially endangering stances he's taken very publicly, including of racist nature. It's in the pay-off that one's racism shows. Racism is also systemic silence and preference of self-benefitting policies to the detriment of social cohesion and inclusion. The sacrifice of the greater good is also a moral duty and setting that aside to support the "other" policies does come with a price to pay, including one's refusal to disavow major social issues like racism, misogyny, minority suppression, violation of human & children's rights, endangering people's lives, etc. Considering the severity of racism in American society right now, I find it hard to not qualify a 2020 Trump supporter as at the very least racist by tacit complicity. I could be wrong and missing a segment of social reality of significance in my pretty basic analysis from an outsider POV. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Sept 14, 2020 14:02:07 GMT
It sounds to me like the general view on this thread is that everyone who supports Trump is a racist whether they know it or not, either overt or complicit. Would you say this is an accurate summation? Can someone be a Trump supporter and not be a racist? That is my view. They are at the very least comfortable enough with what is going on that they are able to look away and vote for a racist and discriminatory policies that he puts into place. Also, the more they deny that he is racist, that is an indication to me that they themselves are racist because they don’t see anything wrong with those values. That doesn’t make it a difference of opinion and it doesn’t make them right. |
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 14, 2020 14:04:10 GMT
I appreciate your thoughts, SleepingBooty. Sometimes those of us on the outside might be able to see the situation with a more unbiased view. You make some great points.
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Post by Merge on Sept 14, 2020 14:26:58 GMT
Sorry, I fixed it. Didn’t take enough code out. What if they don’t explicitly endorse racism though and are Trump supporters for whatever unknown reason? What about those people? One of the biggest lessons of the past several years has been the understanding that racism is often implicit, not explicit. Wanting to keep your nice, white suburb for example - one of Trump’s most overt dog-whistles of late - because when the POC come in it all becomes dangerous and crime-ridden. It’s been in understanding the effect that systemic racism and whites privilege have had in communities of color. And so much more. Lots of people insist they’re not racist but refuse to examine their own beliefs and biases. If we really want all people to be equal, we have to be willing to do some uncomfortable work on ourselves. |
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Post by hop2 on Sept 14, 2020 16:06:50 GMT
So, she just suddenly became this way after knowing her for 33 years? You had no clue? Just curious. Most of the Trump supporters I know have always been that way and I’ve steered clear as much as possible. For myself, yes. We all knew she was GOP. That's never been an issue. But being GOP and Trumper are 2 very different things. It's the latter that was new and became abhorrent. She probably always thought the way she does now honestly, but Trump made it OK for her to "come out" if you will. Trump made it ok ( somehow ) for people to say things that they would have filtered in the past. Things they know are ‘wrong’ but now it’s ok be be vile. So people who hid behind polite things to say or ‘not discussing politics’ now come right out and say shit that blows my mind. So yeah, there’s no agree to disagree any longer these people are not people I associate with anymore. Being a conservative politically is totally different than being a Trumper. |
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 14, 2020 16:33:33 GMT
Being a conservative politically is totally different than being a Trumper. Wondering in your opinion, if you’re willing to share, how so? Who are these people voting for? If they are voting for Trump because they are conservative, are they implicit racists? |
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Post by refugeepea on Sept 14, 2020 16:56:39 GMT
My post copied multiple times over was written in response to the OPs first post that she cut her friend off due to “Trump support.“ Upon posting, I read further and discovered the OP had posted again and said that her friend had come out as a racist, and upon reading that post, I posted that was a completely different thing and I too would cut her off and told a personal story supporting her. I realize that some people would equate a Trump supporter to a racist automatically and cut them off immediately. I am never really willing to go that far but try to give most people the benefit of the doubt that they are maybe wealthy and don’t want to be taxed more or they don’t really follow politics at all but live in a red state and go along with the majority. There are a myriad of reasons one might be a Trump supporter that may have nothing to do with racism. I’m sure though there are some people on this board that might argue with that premise, and I respect that. (bold mine) And there are a myriad of reasons to oppose Donald Trump. He’s not “just” racist. He’s also damaged, dishonest, intentionally divisive, undereducated and underinformed, unwilling to learn, rude, presumptive, belligerent, dismissive, rage-ie, pathologically needy, narcissistic, selfish, arrogant, dangerously self-absorbed (and just plain dangerous), inappropriate, incivil, erratic, vengeful, threatening, provocative, pandering, nepotic, sexist, intolerant, xenophobic, scornful of rules, contemptuous of laws, destructive, money-hungry and, you know, criminal. (And those were just the things I thought of in the time it took to type...) If someone hasn’t noticed even JUST ONE of these wholly-disqualifying-for-a-president characteristics because they want lower taxes or don’t pay attention to politics or parrot what everybody they know thinks, then what the hell else in life will they willfully ignore or not learn? My favorite sign at the women's march me and my daughter attended.  |
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tracylynn
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Post by tracylynn on Sept 14, 2020 17:01:49 GMT
It sounds to me like the general view on this thread is that everyone who supports Trump is a racist whether they know it or not, either overt or complicit. Would you say this is an accurate summation? Can someone be a Trump supporter and not be a racist? For me, if you are a Trump supporter and claim to NOT be a racist, then you are at the very least complicit in supporting a racist and really ... same thing in my book. |
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Post by refugeepea on Sept 14, 2020 17:04:22 GMT
Sorry, I fixed it. Didn’t take enough code out. What if they don’t explicitly endorse racism though and are Trump supporters for whatever unknown reason? What about those people? I think that people need to rethink their definition of racism. Have you read "White Fragility"? The author talks about how the definition of racism has changed over the years (among other things). In the last 40 years or so, the overtly racist comments and actions of the past have become unacceptable. But that doesn't mean that there isn't racism. I was naïve about this until not long ago as well but the more I learn, the more I see. Attitudes and policies perpetuate racism every day. Many people still claim "I'm not a racist" while supporting Trump (a racist) because they think if someone isn't in the KKK or actively saying "I hate people of color" they are fine. That isn't true. However, since Trump has been in office I would say that the overtly racist behaviors are becoming ok again. If someone votes for him, they are voting for that. There is no way around it. lauradrumm your friend was right about one thing...one of you will be on the wrong side of history. And it isn't you. There's actually been some disagreement about that book in the black community. |
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Post by peasapie on Sept 14, 2020 17:07:55 GMT
For myself, yes. We all knew she was GOP. That's never been an issue. But being GOP and Trumper are 2 very different things. It's the latter that was new and became abhorrent. She probably always thought the way she does now honestly, but Trump made it OK for her to "come out" if you will. Trump made it ok ( somehow ) for people to say things that they would have filtered in the past. Things they know are ‘wrong’ but now it’s ok be be vile. So people who hid behind polite things to say or ‘not discussing politics’ now come right out and say shit that blows my mind. So yeah, there’s no agree to disagree any longer these people are not people I associate with anymore. Being a conservative politically is totally different than being a Trumper. You know, I don’t think they actually do believe it’s wrong. But until now it was socially unacceptable to voice these basest impulses. Now I believe they realize some others feel that way too, and are joining together in their bigotry . |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Sept 14, 2020 17:08:28 GMT
I’m curious what is so intolerable about the democratic platform that someone would choose to support Trump instead if they aren’t in the deplorable group.
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Post by refugeepea on Sept 14, 2020 17:13:25 GMT
It sounds to me like the general view on this thread is that everyone who supports Trump is a racist whether they know it or not, either overt or complicit. Would you say this is an accurate summation? Can someone be a Trump supporter and not be a racist? For me, if you are a Trump supporter and claim to NOT be a racist, then you are at the very least complicit in supporting a racist and really ... same thing in my book. For me, racism is just one of the many deal breakers. No respect for the military, albeist, misogynistic, dishonest businessman, his fake charity, all the money going to his businesses while he's president, nepotism to an astonishing degree. Friends and family that are not qualified for their positions. |
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Post by monklady123 on Sept 14, 2020 17:15:53 GMT
It sounds to me like the general view on this thread is that everyone who supports Trump is a racist whether they know it or not, either overt or complicit. Would you say this is an accurate summation? Can someone be a Trump supporter and not be a racist? I'm not American nor do I live in the USA so I'm definitely not in the greatest position to give a valid opinion on this matter. For simplicity's sake, I'm assuming we're setting aside the obvious racist support Trump is given by a significant part of the (white) American electorate and focusing instead on the hypothesis of voters supporting him for other policies despite the racist rethoric. At this stage of Trump's presidency, lending him one's support for policies that aren't racially embedded (or not directly anyway - I don't want to enter the debate of the possibility that current financial policies being the product of long-standing social views that are in part the consequences and/or causes of racist views) requires actively ignoring all the other socially endangering stances he's taken very publicly, including of racist nature. It's in the pay-off that one's racism shows. Racism is also systemic silence and preference of self-benefitting policies to the detriment of social cohesion and inclusion. The sacrifice of the greater good is also a moral duty and setting that aside to support the "other" policies does come with a price to pay, including one's refusal to disavow major social issues like racism, misogyny, minority suppression, violation of human & children's rights, endangering people's lives, etc. Considering the severity of racism in American society right now, I find it hard to not qualify a 2020 Trump supporter as at the very least racist by tacit complicity. I could be wrong and missing a segment of social reality of significance in my pretty basic analysis from an outsider POV. Unrelated to the topic of this post... but I'm just wondering what your nationality is? Are you an American who has become a citizen of another country? (I think you're the one who lives in France...?) -- Just asking because wow your English is excellent! I'm always so impressed by how well other countries manage to teach foreign languages. I have a French friend (native French speaker) who is fluent in English and Spanish also, and who can totally get by in German. I was thinking about her because I just had a letter from her....I write to her in English with a few paragraphs in French for practice, and she replies to me in French with a few paragraphs in English. But this time she added several paragraphs in Spanish because I mentioned that I've been studying it.  No German though because I know maybe two works of it. lol |
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SweetieBsMom
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Post by SweetieBsMom on Sept 14, 2020 17:18:53 GMT
I won't debate politics with Trump supporters. Won't do it.
My in-laws all support Trump but they were raging racists before Trump. There were many a family gathering I got up and left because they started spewing racist shit. Nope. I won't stand to be around it and my DS will not be exposed to their beliefs. It got so bad that I had to say to DH at one point "we either agree to leave when it starts or we're taking 2 cars". I don't speak to any of them since DH passed. They didn't do a damn thing when DH was sick, I don't need them in my life.
My elderly aunts/uncles voted for Trump. I have made it clear I will not be talking politics with them. When it starts, I leave the room. My cousin and I bought "fuck Trump" wine glasses for the next time we're all together. Probably shouldn't be poking the bears but we couldn't resist.
There are a couple of people I un-friended on FB and several I've hidden. I'm not going to change their minds so I'm not engaging. It's as simple as that.
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 14, 2020 17:26:20 GMT
There's actually been some disagreement about that book in the black community. Interesting. What is the controversy? |
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tracylynn
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Post by tracylynn on Sept 14, 2020 17:28:18 GMT
For me, if you are a Trump supporter and claim to NOT be a racist, then you are at the very least complicit in supporting a racist and really ... same thing in my book. For me, racism is just one of the many deal breakers. No respect for the military, albeist, misogynistic, dishonest businessman, his fake charity, all the money going to his businesses while he's president, nepotism to an astonishing degree. Friends and family that are not qualified for their positions. Oh, I agree with all of that and almost mentioned the misogyny and xenophobia in particular ... but wanted to answer her question specifically about racism. |
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inkedup
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Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Sept 14, 2020 17:28:46 GMT
Being a conservative politically is totally different than being a Trumper. Wondering in your opinion, if you’re willing to share, how so? Who are these people voting for? If they are voting for Trump because they are conservative, are they implicit racists? The hard core Trump supporters I know are absolutely bigots. Some are more open than others, but, in most cases, yes. I do believe Trump supporters are bigots. And, if not bigots, they are willing to overlook a racist president with a soft spot for white supremacists because jobs or the anthem or savethechildren or whatever. |
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Kath
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Post by Kath on Sept 14, 2020 17:29:06 GMT
I’m curious what is so intolerable about the democratic platform that someone would choose to support Trump instead if they aren’t in the deplorable group. Gun control, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, taking away all of the “good jobs,” college-educated nitwits who couldn’t find their way out of a paper bag, baby killers, freeloaders, hypocrites, power mongers, complainers about everything, welfare moochers. Trying to think, did I miss any? ETA: Missed “took our good insurance away with Obamacare” and “want to raise taxes and keep it all for themselves” ETA: Thought of some more: Hatred of the police, dislike for the military but always trying to go to war when in power, disrespectful of the flag and country, wanting to tear down all the statues, trying to change and alter American history, not honoring American culture and traditions, caring more about people from other countries than they care about their own citizens |
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Post by sleepingbooty on Sept 14, 2020 17:34:39 GMT
It's in the pay-off that one's racism shows. Racism is also systemic silence and preference of self-benefitting policies to the detriment of social cohesion and inclusion. The sacrifice of the greater good is also a moral duty and setting that aside to support the "other" policies does come with a price to pay, including one's refusal to disavow major social issues like racism, misogyny, minority suppression, violation of human & children's rights, endangering people's lives, etc. Considering the severity of racism in American society right now, I find it hard to not qualify a 2020 Trump supporter as at the very least racist by tacit complicity. I could be wrong and missing a segment of social reality of significance in my pretty basic analysis from an outsider POV. Unrelated to the topic of this post... but I'm just wondering what your nationality is? Are you an American who has become a citizen of another country? (I think you're the one who lives in France...?) -- Just asking because wow your English is excellent! I'm always so impressed by how well other countries manage to teach foreign languages. I have a French friend (native French speaker) who is fluent in English and Spanish also, and who can totally get by in German. I was thinking about her because I just had a letter from her....I write to her in English with a few paragraphs in French for practice, and she replies to me in French with a few paragraphs in English. But this time she added several paragraphs in Spanish because I mentioned that I've been studying it. No German though because I know maybe two works of it. lol Thank you for the kind compliment. I'm French, indeed, you remember correctly! I was fortunate enough to grow up as a nomad child as we moved regularly between countries (and languages). There was no homeschooling for me; off to the local public school to figure it all out (history and geography of the new country were always much more of a hassle than the new language in my experience).  It has obviously helped shape my love and practice for languages which is not that unusual in Europe to begin with. I've got three Germanic languages and four Romance languages down but I don't feel like I can take much credit for those abilities. It just happened. All I have to do is "awaken" the least used ones once in a while (listening to radio stations online and podcasts, reading a book, watching movies) to keep them fresh. Wishing you loads of fun as you practice your French and Spanish! Before you know it, you'll be trying out some Italian...  You'll have to travel over to come test your skills IRL when this pandemic is over. Nothing like bakeries, pastry shops and cafés to test out your very important vocabulary.  |
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schizo319
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Post by schizo319 on Sept 14, 2020 17:58:30 GMT
Being a conservative politically is totally different than being a Trumper. Wondering in your opinion, if you’re willing to share, how so? Who are these people voting for? If they are voting for Trump because they are conservative, are they implicit racists? As someone who identified as politically conservative until 2016: For ME, the conservative moniker was in relation to fiscal issues - period. Socially, I've always been very liberal and I don't think the government should have any say in who people marry, abortion, religion, etc - which is why I identified with the false "small government" rhetoric of the conservatives in the first place. I felt and still feel like the government should be better stewards of tax payer money. I would like to see a small cut to ALL government spending until our deficit is back in order - that means cutting social programs as well as things like foreign aid and tax breaks to the wealthy (the latter of which I would prefer to do away with entirely). I voted for Hillary in 2016 and will vote for Biden in 2020 for a lot of different reasons, including the fact that this administration wastes more money than any "tax and spend democrat" ever thought of - I don't know how any fiscal conservative cannot see that at this point. As to the implicit racism of Trump voters, I can't answer that question because I don't personally know *all* Trump supporters, but most of those that I have come in contact with DO have racist views/tendencies, some are overt racists and some are thinly veiled judgments about "the bad part of town" or "those people who collect food stamps or welfare" - though those folks tend to look down their noses at poor white Americans as much as they do Black Americans - so it's probably as much "classism" as it is racism in those cases. |
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Post by monklady123 on Sept 14, 2020 18:25:30 GMT
Unrelated to the topic of this post... but I'm just wondering what your nationality is? Are you an American who has become a citizen of another country? (I think you're the one who lives in France...?) -- Just asking because wow your English is excellent! I'm always so impressed by how well other countries manage to teach foreign languages. I have a French friend (native French speaker) who is fluent in English and Spanish also, and who can totally get by in German. I was thinking about her because I just had a letter from her....I write to her in English with a few paragraphs in French for practice, and she replies to me in French with a few paragraphs in English. But this time she added several paragraphs in Spanish because I mentioned that I've been studying it. No German though because I know maybe two works of it. lol Thank you for the kind compliment. I'm French, indeed, you remember correctly! I was fortunate enough to grow up as a nomad child as we moved regularly between countries (and languages). There was no homeschooling for me; off to the local public school to figure it all out (history and geography of the new country were always much more of a hassle than the new language in my experience). It has obviously helped shape my love and practice for languages which is not that unusual in Europe to begin with. I've got three Germanic languages and four Romance languages down but I don't feel like I can take much credit for those abilities. It just happened. All I have to do is "awaken" the least used ones once in a while (listening to radio stations online and podcasts, reading a book, watching movies) to keep them fresh. Wishing you loads of fun as you practice your French and Spanish! Before you know it, you'll be trying out some Italian... You'll have to travel over to come test your skills IRL when this pandemic is over. Nothing like bakeries, pastry shops and cafés to test out your very important vocabulary. Oh yes, les pâtisseries. yum... I took my dd to Paris when she was in high school... we spent 10 days there, and by the end of it she was understanding quite a lot (she was taking French in school) just from hearing it all around us. I had years of French in school but never felt totally comfortable with it until I went to live in a Francophone country in West Africa. Which is where I met my friend, in fact. -- The problem I'm having now as I'm trying to improve my Spanish is inserting French words. lol |
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Post by mollycoddle on Sept 14, 2020 18:34:25 GMT
Being a conservative politically is totally different than being a Trumper. Wondering in your opinion, if you’re willing to share, how so? Who are these people voting for? If they are voting for Trump because they are conservative, are they implicit racists? There are a lot of conservatives who despise Trump and would never vote for him. Never-Trumpers fall into this category. I wonder if they will form a new Conservative party at some point because I cannot picture them aligning with Trump supporters. |
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Post by lauradrumm on Sept 14, 2020 19:43:02 GMT
I think that people need to rethink their definition of racism. Have you read "White Fragility"? The author talks about how the definition of racism has changed over the years (among other things). I haven’t read it. Thanks, I will check it out. ETA: Ordered off Amazon just now, looks interesting. I started reading it also but have run into some interesting critical views, many from POC, that shed some interesting light |
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Post by MsChiff on Sept 14, 2020 19:46:25 GMT
It sounds to me like the general view on this thread is that everyone who supports Trump is a racist whether they know it or not, either overt or complicit. Would you say this is an accurate summation? Can someone be a Trump supporter and not be a racist? Yes. Those posting on political threads here are mostly, if not all, democrats who are intolerant of anyone who thinks/believes differently than them. |
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Post by lauradrumm on Sept 14, 2020 19:49:56 GMT
I’m curious what is so intolerable about the democratic platform that someone would choose to support Trump instead if they aren’t in the deplorable group. The fear with which the far right manipulate them. Socialism (which they don’t understand and thus vote against their own best interests), guns going to be taken away, POC get everything free, etc |
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No German though because I know maybe two works of it. lol
It has obviously helped shape my love and practice for languages which is not that unusual in Europe to begin with. I've got three Germanic languages and four Romance languages down but I don't feel like I can take much credit for those abilities. It just happened. All I have to do is "awaken" the least used ones once in a while (listening to radio stations online and podcasts, reading a book, watching movies) to keep them fresh. 
You'll have to travel over to come test your skills IRL when this pandemic is over. Nothing like bakeries, pastry shops and cafés to test out your very important vocabulary. 
