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Post by mollycoddle on Nov 6, 2022 20:53:52 GMT
There have been some incidents of myocarditis in young men;I think it was about 1 in 1000. I did read that there is concern that boosters may have issues for this age group, and I believe that studies are being done. So I will not disagree with you about boosters, esp. for young men. I believe that the vaccine has saved lives. We need to learn more about the efficacy of boosters for young people. I am very happy that I was able to get booster shots, but it may be that we learn that they are not needed for every age group. Or, the boosters may be different for different age groups. Who knows? All of that is to say that IMO, scientists operated on what they knew at the time, which is always how these things work. I do not blame them for that. That would be foolish. We are lucky that the technology and know-how was available to develop vaccines as quickly as we did. ETA: here is a bit about myocarditis from the apAmerican Heart Assoc, if anyone is interested. www.heart.org/en/news/2022/09/06/myocarditis-from-covid-19-booster-rare-but-risk-highest-among-teen-boys-young-menThe rate of myocarditis in young men was much higher for those infected with Covid than for those who were vaccinated. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34341797/Yes, this is just to say that scientists are puzzling over the cause, and more studies are needed.
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Post by Merge on Nov 6, 2022 20:55:43 GMT
Believes that Covid vaccine was rushed; also believes that protocols should turn on a dime per her preference without adequate study. You believe what you want and I’ll do the same. No, I'm going to believe what respected epidemiologists say instead of following nutjobs on YouTube for medical advice. "Want" shouldn't enter into it. The fact that you and others have allowed "want" to dictate your beliefs has led to violence and deaths. You and your "want" are complicit in that. As you said above, nothing will change your belief that Covid protocols were a power grab by politicians. *Nothing* will change your belief. But supposedly the rest of us are the ones who can't evaluate media objectively.
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Post by kelbel827 on Nov 6, 2022 21:21:54 GMT
Wow. The ignorance of the OP is just nuts.
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Post by Scrapper100 on Nov 6, 2022 21:24:25 GMT
I am not wrong when I say that masks and vaxes did not stop people from getting or giving covid. The science proves that, otherwise, nobody that is masked or vaxed would be getting covid. I never said that they don’t slow the spread. I said that people who wore masks and are vaxed and boosted still get covid. When you post a link that disputes that, I will change my view. Well by that same arguement condoms aren’t 100% nor are any other forms of birth control. Seatbelts and airbags don’t prevent all deaths either. So because they aren’t perfect should we stop using them to? Vaccines combined with proper mask wearing and social distancing helps prevent the spread. Every thing I saw said that you needed to layer multiple different methods to help prevent it. So many people didn’t wear masks correctly even those that were trying, many were fitted improperly. Yes you can do everything “right” and still get it but it’s worth trying to prevent it if possible. They never said that the vaccines will totally prevent Covid snd it has been such a fast changing virus that it’s hard to keep up with.
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Post by amp on Nov 6, 2022 21:25:11 GMT
however, you refused to even consider it and it was just disgusting name calling for anyone who DID have the opposing view. I'm sorry you must have me confused with someone else. Just because I followed the protocols laid out for us and the science as we knew it, does not mean that I called anyone names or anything of the sort. What I know is, even if the social distancing did not save a single life, I don't regret doing it. I still have not had COVID. What I also know is even if masks were worthless, they caused no additional harm. So I don't feel like masking, even now is a terrible idea. What I also know is, YouTube is not the place I get scientific information. I prefer to follow experts in their field. And I also know this virus was something we had never seen before so it was alright with me if the recommendations changed on the daily. We only knew what we knew. In light of the point above, I give grace to our leaders who were trying to adapt to these rapid changes in the best way they knew how. They didn't act with malice. They did the best they could with the information we had. And in this society where disinformation runs rampant and there are "alternative" facts in play, I can't even imagine the kind of confusion that plagues our leaders. If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that our society is very divided. Now we have a choice, we can extend compassion and understanding to people who thought they were doing the very best thing they possibly could for the good of society, we can understand that this was a situation where there was a lot of unknown. Or we can keep on beating our drums with the rightness or wrongness of hindsight. And that is not the kind of person I want to be. I totally agree. Compassion for the win!!
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Post by hopemax on Nov 6, 2022 21:45:58 GMT
For the record, the author, Emily Oster is not asking for amnesty and an apology from *you.* She is an economist who led the charge FOR reopening. She is arguing that all the social distancing, school and other closures were wrong and so she should be forgiven for advocating this position. The amnesty she is seeking is for herself from people who argued in favor of continued closures, mask rules etc. Ie, the people within the medical community, people with medical conditions that place them in the high risk category of a poor covid outcome, people who believe in the benefits of public health, and people that remember that she gave a TED Talk that essentially argued that treating HIV in Africa is too expensive therefore we should let people die from AIDS and direct funds to malaria. The difference between her and you, apparently, is that she believes that novel infectious diseases do present a clear and present danger, and a high level of uncertainty which makes decision making difficult. And she believes in vaccines. So for that she as also attracted the ire of those who believe that the vaccines are dangerous and Covid is not. She is the one that is okay with people dieing "for the greater good." In this case arguing that delays in other child vaccinations and educational delays were too high a price to pay in an attempt to save lives or prevent disabling medical conditions due to the severity of their illness or development of long covid among older, vulnerable people. In the event of a future pandemic, she would be a potential ally for people who take the position that we should reject closures, or keeping people away from each other. But if she is not militant enough for you because she acknowledges there is an initial period where people are right to cautious due to the uncertainty, and in general, vaccinations are good public health strategy... well then carry on... Everyone was scared at the beginning. But my point is that once things were shown to either not be working or were not contraindicated, protocols should have changed. In my opinion, they didn’t because politicians wanted control over people. And I will never not believe that. They really don't. If politicians *really* wanted control over people, we would be in Zero Covid like China. That is a government that is demonstrating *exactly* how much control they intend to have over their citizens. Remember the origin of the word quarantine in the first place. The Italian word for 40 days. 40 days of isolation from the rest of society. That is the historical standard for dealing with infectious disease. There weren't military police at people's doors looking for the infected, there weren't camps people were dragged off to. The colony of patients suffering from Hansen's disease on Molokai (a disease that isn't even infectious), and the facility on North Brother Island where Typhoid Mary was kept are reminders are to the lengths people and government historically went to. Towns did not prevent *any* outsider from entering as many did during periods of disease like small pox, influenza, yellow fever, etc. IMO, the reason why Covid response was so haphazard and eventually ineffective because politicians were trying to avoid creating a situation where government were "controlling people" despite knowing what is necessary to slow the spread of infectious diseases, especially a novel one. Everyone acted was far below the maximum option. When people are advocating for "do nothing" then doing anything seems extreme. Here's the thing, human society is not advanced enough to have developed the tools to slow infectious disease without extreme isolation protocols. Vaccination is our best option, but it requires literally almost everyone to participate in it. Masks are less effective than vaccines and still need literally almost everyone to participate to end up with that less effective outcome. From my point of view too many politicians allowed people to believe that that wasn't the case. Too many people bought into the "Maybe we don't need everyone, maybe we'll reach the critical inflection point with less." This is not the mindset of people looking to control everyone. These are the words of people who are desperately trying to convince themselves that they *don't* need to be heavy handed in order for the situation to improve. They also made a mistake in believing that people would act appropriately in the event of a real danger, instead of so many denying the danger in the first place. There were also plenty of people falling back on the psychological coping mechanism people use to absolve themselves from participation by declaring, "There is nothing we could have done." The end result being they abdicated their responsibilities; the opposite of control. This was a devastating situation for everyone, in learning where on the path of knowledge, skills and tools humanity actually is vs where we thought we were. That lesson continues with the state of democracy, and things like racism, women's rights, etc. If you believe this was control, all I can do as warning is to offer that you better buckle up for what comes next. I believe from previous posts, your son is college age, so you should be young enough to watch it unfold.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Nov 6, 2022 21:49:14 GMT
I'm with hopemax 100%. Every post of yours here was kind and well reasoned. Fair and not full of error, accusation, or apology.
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Post by Embri on Nov 6, 2022 22:05:06 GMT
I’m sorry. I should have added a sarcastic smiley. I was being snarky. When asked to explain her thoughts, OP gives us a video of a Canadian railing against how Canada handled the pandemic, unable to articulate thoughts on her own, or specific to her own country. On behalf of Canadians, please accept this obligatory "Sorry".
A vocal minority lack the common sense of a goose and are about as nice.
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Post by aj2hall on Nov 6, 2022 22:05:44 GMT
The Covid vax is not experimental. Full stop. That’s a lie, and insofar as that lie (which you continue to spread) prevented some people from getting vaccinated who later died of Covid, it’s a lie that got people killed needlessly. Trump tried to overthrow a free and fair election and continues to tell the lie of a “stolen” election daily. His lies have led to people being harassed, threatened, and killed. He has told lies about immigrants, educators, Democrats and others that have resulted in violence. Insofar as you support him and spread his lies and those of his surrogates, you are aiding his fascist tendencies and are complicit in the harm they cause. Still, you have never been denied the opportunity to contribute. You’re just mad because you believe the whackadoodle stuff you see online, but when you bring it here, people don’t give you the admiration you expect for being soooo much more knowledgeable 🙄and “doing your own research.” And that’s because most of us aren’t arrogant, deluded fools who think we know better than people who spend their lives studying the spread of disease. You are free to keep bringing links to the crazy people you substitute for actual news and well-informed opinion, but recognize that many here will correctly point out that you’re not the “strong and self-assured” rationalist you believe yourself to be. You’re a willing dupe, and part of the problem. The fact that the vax was created and distributed in less than a year made it experimental. I don’t contribute here for admiration. I’m not anywhere near that egotistical. I bring another viewpoint or opinion and if I link proof of something, it’s labeled fake news. It’s all what or who you believe. You however, seem to be unable or unwilling to see a point of view or different news source objectively. And unable to do so without an insult to who ever posts it. No, that's not how the vaccine authorization process works. I'm fairly certain this has been explained before. You just keep repeating the same falsehoods. The vaccine was developed during the Trump administration. Remember operation warp speed? Steps were taken simultaneously instead of progressively to save time. Clinical trials were conducted. The vaccines received emergency use authorization, then full use authorization. They are not experimental vaccines. In this case and some of your other opinions, your statements are just plain false. Pointing out your falsehoods is not an insult. You're entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own set of facts.
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Post by aj2hall on Nov 6, 2022 22:09:23 GMT
I am not wrong when I say that masks and vaxes did not stop people from getting or giving covid. The science proves that, otherwise, nobody that is masked or vaxed would be getting covid. I never said that they don’t slow the spread. I said that people who wore masks and are vaxed and boosted still get covid. When you post a link that disputes that, I will change my view. Masks and vaccines do stop people from getting the virus by slowing the transmission. Slowing the transmission stops some people from getting covid. Masks and vaccines don't have to stop everyone from getting the virus, stopping some people is still effective. And the vaccines work by preventing severe illness and death.
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quiltz
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Jun 29, 2014 16:13:28 GMT
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Post by quiltz on Nov 6, 2022 22:14:41 GMT
The fact that the vax was created and distributed in less than a year made it experimental. Scientists have been researching the Covid virus and its many mutations since 2003, when the SARS virus was a real and dangerous and deadly threat. Early intervention and segregating people who could be infected worked so well that many people were unaware of how dangerous the Covid virus strains and mutations could be for us. Since then, there has been tremendous research and development in a vaxxine to combat Covid strains & mutations viruses happening. The vaccine had been worked and researched for 16+ YEARS. Because so much research had taken place, the scientists were able to fully concentrate on the *-19* strain and mutation of the Covid virus. This is not less than a year.
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Post by cindosha on Nov 6, 2022 22:19:54 GMT
Thank you. It was a terrible loss. I am sorry for your loss as well. Thanks molly!
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Post by aj2hall on Nov 6, 2022 22:21:50 GMT
There have been some incidents of myocarditis in young men;I think it was about 1 in 1000. I did read that there is concern that boosters may have issues for this age group, and I believe that studies are being done. So I will not disagree with you about boosters, esp. for young men. I believe that the vaccine has saved lives. We need to learn more about the efficacy of boosters for young people. I am very happy that I was able to get booster shots, but it may be that we learn that they are not needed for every age group. Or, the boosters may be different for different age groups. Who knows? All of that is to say that IMO, scientists operated on what they knew at the time, which is always how these things work. I do not blame them for that. That would be foolish. We are lucky that the technology and know-how was available to develop vaccines as quickly as we did. My point is that despite contraindications to people who either do not need the vax/booster or shouldn’t have the vax/booster for whatever reason, people in that group were vilified and treated like shit even by this current president and countless politicians. It is not one size fits all. There are several doctors and scientists who tried to opine a different view and provide different studies and were accused of spreading misinformation, shut down on social media and fired from their jobs. And that information was withheld from the general public at the news media and politicians discretion. The president stating the truth in the summer of 2021 that it was a pandemic of the unvaccinated is not treating people like shit. He was trying to warn Americans that unvaccinated people were hospitalized and dying from the virus. Telling the truth is not treating people like shit. If you're offended by your perception of the president treating people like shit, where is your outrage at all of the offensive things Trump has done? Are you referring to the crazy doctor that thought hydroxychloroquine would prevent covid? She also blamed medical conditions on demons and witches. In scientific, peer reviewed studies, hydroxychloroquine has not proven effective against covid. www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2016638Social media removed posts with unproven and sometimes dangerous treatments like ingesting bleach, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.
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Post by mollycoddle on Nov 6, 2022 22:53:27 GMT
My point is that despite contraindications to people who either do not need the vax/booster or shouldn’t have the vax/booster for whatever reason, people in that group were vilified and treated like shit even by this current president and countless politicians. It is not one size fits all. There are several doctors and scientists who tried to opine a different view and provide different studies and were accused of spreading misinformation, shut down on social media and fired from their jobs. And that information was withheld from the general public at the news media and politicians discretion. The president stating the truth in the summer of 2021 that it was a pandemic of the unvaccinated is not treating people like shit. He was trying to warn Americans that unvaccinated people were hospitalized and dying from the virus. Telling the truth is not treating people like shit. If you're offended by your perception of the president treating people like shit, where is your outrage at all of the offensive things Trump has done? Are you referring to the crazy doctor that thought hydroxychloroquine would prevent covid? She also blamed medical conditions on demons and witches. In scientific, peer reviewed studies, hydroxychloroquine has not proven effective against covid. www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2016638Social media removed posts with unproven and sometimes dangerous treatments like ingesting bleach, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. I remain mystified by the hostility of the Right toward this vaccine. I simply do not understand why so many people, having gotten other vaccines without complaint, and having vaccinated their infants against many illnesses, think that this vaccine is bad. Are there some issues? Sure, but this vaccine has done far more good than bad. Science can and has made mistakes, but this was not one of them.
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Post by femalebusiness on Nov 6, 2022 23:00:45 GMT
That’s not the issue of my op. You are getting off track. You asked what issues and we responded. Also the infrastructure plan that was long promised but never actually delivered by Republicans. The Democrats did successfully pass a popular infrastructure plan with the help of some Republicans. Thanks for answering that. I just don't have the time nor the energy to respond to her nonsense.
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Post by elaine on Nov 6, 2022 23:17:12 GMT
The president stating the truth in the summer of 2021 that it was a pandemic of the unvaccinated is not treating people like shit. He was trying to warn Americans that unvaccinated people were hospitalized and dying from the virus. Telling the truth is not treating people like shit. If you're offended by your perception of the president treating people like shit, where is your outrage at all of the offensive things Trump has done? Are you referring to the crazy doctor that thought hydroxychloroquine would prevent covid? She also blamed medical conditions on demons and witches. In scientific, peer reviewed studies, hydroxychloroquine has not proven effective against covid. www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2016638Social media removed posts with unproven and sometimes dangerous treatments like ingesting bleach, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. I remain mystified by the hostility of the Right toward this vaccine. I simply do not understand why so many people, having gotten other vaccines without complaint, and having vaccinated their infants against many illnesses, think that this vaccine is bad. Are there some issues? Sure, but this vaccine has done far more good than bad. Science can and has made mistakes, but this was not one of them. Or why they trust things and give them freely like antibiotics - which also CAN have negative side effects? (ask me about the kidney failure due to amoxicillin that landed my then-17-month-old in a PICU and then hospital for a week) I still gave and give that child other antibiotics, because antibiotics save lives, including his. No rational human being denies that every medical treatment may not work for some and/or may have negative side effects for others, or claims that because a vaccine or medication or treatment doesn't work for some or has a negative side effect for others (in the minority) that the vaccine/medication/treatment should be denied to all - for whom it is safe and effective in the majority.
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moodyblue
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,179
Location: Western Illinois
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
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Post by moodyblue on Nov 7, 2022 1:37:41 GMT
I am not wrong when I say that masks and vaxes did not stop people from getting or giving covid. The science proves that, otherwise, nobody that is masked or vaxed would be getting covid. I never said that they don’t slow the spread. I said that people who wore masks and are vaxed and boosted still get covid. When you post a link that disputes that, I will change my view. Well by that same arguement condoms aren’t 100% nor are any other forms of birth control. Seatbelts and airbags don’t prevent all deaths either. So because they aren’t perfect should we stop using them to? Vaccines combined with proper mask wearing and social distancing helps prevent the spread. Every thing I saw said that you needed to layer multiple different methods to help prevent it. So many people didn’t wear masks correctly even those that were trying, many were fitted improperly. Yes you can do everything “right” and still get it but it’s worth trying to prevent it if possible. They never said that the vaccines will totally prevent Covid snd it has been such a fast changing virus that it’s hard to keep up with. The OP has always argued that if it isn’t 100% then it isn’t effective. It’s all or nothing in her mind. And as much as she thinks many of us are resistant to any other viewpoints, she is an example of that herself.
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Post by femalebusiness on Nov 7, 2022 2:57:16 GMT
Well by that same arguement condoms aren’t 100% nor are any other forms of birth control. Seatbelts and airbags don’t prevent all deaths either. So because they aren’t perfect should we stop using them to? Vaccines combined with proper mask wearing and social distancing helps prevent the spread. Every thing I saw said that you needed to layer multiple different methods to help prevent it. So many people didn’t wear masks correctly even those that were trying, many were fitted improperly. Yes you can do everything “right” and still get it but it’s worth trying to prevent it if possible. They never said that the vaccines will totally prevent Covid snd it has been such a fast changing virus that it’s hard to keep up with. The OP has always argued that if it isn’t 100% then it isn’t effective. It’s all or nothing in her mind. And as much as she thinks many of us are resistant to any other viewpoints, she is an example of that herself. This is so on point and true.
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Post by morecowbell on Nov 22, 2022 12:14:17 GMT
They never said that the vaccines will totally prevent Covid Yes, they did. Fauci said "vaccinated people become dead ends for the virus" , Biden “You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”, the CDC "Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick, not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.", lots of main stream media and politicians parroting them while shaming anyone who questioned it. Some of them even went so far as saying they deserved to get sick. Hell, even the CEO of Pfizer said it's “100 per cent effective against severe Covid-19.”
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pantsonfire
Pearl Clutcher
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 4,762
Jun 19, 2022 16:48:04 GMT
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Post by pantsonfire on Nov 22, 2022 12:42:14 GMT
They never said that the vaccines will totally prevent Covid Yes, they did. Fauci said "vaccinated people become dead ends for the virus" , Biden “You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”, the CDC "Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick, not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.", lots of main stream media and politicians parroting them while shaming anyone who questioned it. Some of them even went so far as saying they deserved to get sick. Hell, even the CEO of Pfizer said it's “100 per cent effective against severe Covid-19.” Because at the time it was. During the trials that is what happened but when the larger population received the vaccine and Covid began to mutate and change, it then helped lesson the severity of Covid. Science is ever evolving and as we test and research and read data things change and that is okay. I'm tired of people being stuck with the but they said camp.
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Post by morecowbell on Nov 22, 2022 12:56:11 GMT
Yes, they did. Fauci said "vaccinated people become dead ends for the virus" , Biden “You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”, the CDC "Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick, not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.", lots of main stream media and politicians parroting them while shaming anyone who questioned it. Some of them even went so far as saying they deserved to get sick. Hell, even the CEO of Pfizer said it's “100 per cent effective against severe Covid-19.” Because at the time it was. During the trials that is what happened but when the larger population received the vaccine and Covid began to mutate and change, it then helped lesson the severity of Covid. Science is ever evolving and as we test and research and read data things change and that is okay. I'm tired of people being stuck with the but they said camp. It's not a "but they said" camp. Scrapper100 said "they never said it" I'm just showing that yes, they did.
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peppermintpatty
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea #1345
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Jun 26, 2014 17:47:08 GMT
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Post by peppermintpatty on Nov 22, 2022 13:05:39 GMT
You want apologies for distancing during Covid? Did something happen to you during that time? I really do not understand your point. Distancing, really?? You think that’s all this was? First of all, that was a big bust…social distancing did nothing to stop the spread. The fact that the jab was misrepresented, forced and if not taken people lost their jobs and ability to feed their families and, at that time, the drug companies KNEW the jab was not going to prevent the spread, or prevent you from getting it, masking was ineffective and forced on babies and toddlers?? Remember the people/families kicked off of airplanes because they couldn’t keep a mask on their 2-year-old child? The thousands that had to die alone, including my mother and my aunt, the economy that was destroyed? The disgusting holier than thou name calling on this board, and the inability of those on this same board that refused to consider a different point of view or the fact that there was contradicting evidence/science/facts against what was shoved down everyone’s throat from fauci, fjb and the rest of the politicians and drug companies. The fact that people who had done their research and DIDN’T want to put an experimental drug into their bodies had NO body autonomy, people denied medical procedures and/or medical care for refusing the jab (and many on this board who cheered for that). Remember in 2020 when there were still sporting events, actors making movies, rioters/protesters and politicians maskless in public all while everyone else was forced to mask up? I do!! Social platforms blocking or taking down information that is now proven accurate and the left being okay with that? And it’s not about me, it’s about every person who was put through a living hell by the politicians/drug companies for their own personal gain and ego. And a president (I use that term lightly) who said that this was “a pandemic of the unvaccinated and that it’s not about freedom or personal choice.” They can take their “apology” and shove it. Do you understand my point now? Wow! You really have your facts messed up. Move along.
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compeateropeator
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Jun 26, 2014 23:10:56 GMT
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Post by compeateropeator on Nov 22, 2022 13:22:44 GMT
Because at the time it was. During the trials that is what happened but when the larger population received the vaccine and Covid began to mutate and change, it then helped lesson the severity of Covid. Science is ever evolving and as we test and research and read data things change and that is okay. I'm tired of people being stuck with the but they said camp. It's not a "but they said" camp. Scrapper100 said "they never said it" I'm just showing that yes, they did. That is the nice thing with everything recorded and spread all over the internet it is pretty easy to verify what was and was not said, even when denied. That is something that everyone (general everyone) should keep in the forefront of their mind, especially when using words like “never”, “always”, “absolutely”, etc…or those known for just telling blatant lies.
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Post by claudia123 on Nov 22, 2022 13:31:41 GMT
I am very left wing and resonated with a lot of the criticisms of the pandemic response coming from the right (though for very different reasons). My main concerns were border closures, mandated vaccines, the huge transfer of wealth to the already rich, and the total dismissal of the fact humans are social animals and it is not selfish to want/need human contact outside of those you live with. We almost became total property of the state, told who we could interact with, when we could leave our houses, and what medical decisions we could make with no ability to argue without being shouted down as right wing babies who didn't care about others. There was also dismissal on the left of those who find mask wearing difficult (e.g people who are deaf or hard of hearing) which I found quite difficult to understand.
IMO we collectively were unable to deal with the fact that humans do not have total control over nature and sometimes there is no good solution and bad things happen. Instead we pivoted to taking an almost religious view of science (that it is something to be 'believed in' or followed) and popularised the idea that if you 'behave' or do the 'right thing' you won't get ill. Viruses are part and parcel of animal life and it should never have been viewed as a moral failing to catch one. It has all become so tribal and that has done way more harm than good IMO, and I worry that if another pandemic comes along any time soon trust in public health will be very low.
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SweetieBsMom
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Jun 25, 2014 19:55:12 GMT
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Post by SweetieBsMom on Nov 22, 2022 13:44:27 GMT
I haven't read thru this entire thread, I honestly don't have the energy today. But I will say two things: I got vaxxed and boosted and my doctors believe my myocarditis is a result of the booster, no more rMNA vaccines for me. Secondly, I don't care what anyone says. Masks DO work. I am on three immune suppressing drugs. I have no immune system anymore. I was in a car for at least 1 hr, windows rolled up, with someone who thought they had the sniffles. She wore a surgical mask and I work a KN95 mask. Next day she texts me she tested positive for COVID. I did not, thankfully, catch it. So yeah, masks do work.
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Post by CardBoxer on Nov 22, 2022 14:07:53 GMT
I am very left wing and resonated with a lot of the criticisms of the pandemic response coming from the right (though for very different reasons). My main concerns were border closures, mandated vaccines, the huge transfer of wealth to the already rich, and the total dismissal of the fact humans are social animals and it is not selfish to want/need human contact outside of those you live with. We almost became total property of the state, told who we could interact with, when we could leave our houses, and what medical decisions we could make with no ability to argue without being shouted down as right wing babies who didn't care about others. There was also dismissal on the left of those who find mask wearing difficult (e.g people who are deaf or hard of hearing) which I found quite difficult to understand. IMO we collectively were unable to deal with the fact that humans do not have total control over nature and sometimes there is no good solution and bad things happen. Instead we pivoted to taking an almost religious view of science (that it is something to be 'believed in' or followed) and popularised the idea that if you 'behave' or do the 'right thing' you won't get ill. Viruses are part and parcel of animal life and it should never have been viewed as a moral failing to catch one. It has all become so tribal and that has done way more harm than good IMO, and I worry that if another pandemic comes along any time soon trust in public health will be very low. So by your reckoning, vaccines for polio should not have been created. After all, viruses are “part and parcel of animal life.” Morality? How about lack of morality to suggest that people die rather than get a vaccine or wear a mask and social distance? No expert argued that we have “total control over nature.” But they were trying to save lives. And you “worry that if another pandemic comes along… trust in public health will be very low” but you’ve made it clear you don’t trust public health. I usually ignore these threads because people like the OP who choose to believe ignorance by slurping up what Fox and worse feeds them, are not going to be swayed one iota by logic, science or compassion.
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Just T
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,544
Jun 26, 2014 1:20:09 GMT
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Post by Just T on Nov 22, 2022 15:00:58 GMT
I have never understood the whole "it's not 100% effective in preventing covid, so it must be quack medicine" or any of those sentiments. People religiously get flu shots every year, even though they are not 100% effective in preventing flu.
I had the first two covid vaccines in April and May of 2021. Felt like crap for about 24 hours after the second one, but other than that, no effects that I know of. I was going to get my booster right after Christmas last year, but then my son and daughter, who both still were at home, got Covid. I was told I needed to wait to get it since I lived with people who were sick. Then, 3 weeks later, my husband got it, and then I got it after that. I had a hard time bouncing back, but nothing horrible like I know other people experienced. It was definitely more than "just a cold" for me. I'm so sick of hearing that. I was completely miserable and barely able to function for a week. No cold has ever done that to me. It took me months to get over the tiredness and shortness of breath.
I still haven't gotten a booster, and I admit, I am sort of afraid to after hearing some stories about blood clots and heart issues. I don't feel like my lungs have ever completely gotten back to "normal" since I had covid. Nothing crazy, but when I hike or go for long walks, I get winded much more easily than I did before I had Covid. I don't have any underlying health issues that make/made me more at risk, either.
Now that cases of Covid seem to be ramping up, I do still think about getting the booster, but I don't know...
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Post by claudia123 on Nov 22, 2022 15:01:54 GMT
I am very left wing and resonated with a lot of the criticisms of the pandemic response coming from the right (though for very different reasons). My main concerns were border closures, mandated vaccines, the huge transfer of wealth to the already rich, and the total dismissal of the fact humans are social animals and it is not selfish to want/need human contact outside of those you live with. We almost became total property of the state, told who we could interact with, when we could leave our houses, and what medical decisions we could make with no ability to argue without being shouted down as right wing babies who didn't care about others. There was also dismissal on the left of those who find mask wearing difficult (e.g people who are deaf or hard of hearing) which I found quite difficult to understand. IMO we collectively were unable to deal with the fact that humans do not have total control over nature and sometimes there is no good solution and bad things happen. Instead we pivoted to taking an almost religious view of science (that it is something to be 'believed in' or followed) and popularised the idea that if you 'behave' or do the 'right thing' you won't get ill. Viruses are part and parcel of animal life and it should never have been viewed as a moral failing to catch one. It has all become so tribal and that has done way more harm than good IMO, and I worry that if another pandemic comes along any time soon trust in public health will be very low. So by your reckoning, vaccines for polio should not have been created. After all, viruses are “part and parcel of animal life.” Morality? How about lack of morality to suggest that people die rather than get a vaccine or wear a mask and social distance? No expert argued that we have “total control over nature.” But they were trying to save lives. And you “worry that if another pandemic comes along… trust in public health will be very low” but you’ve made it clear you don’t trust public health. I usually ignore these threads because people like the OP who choose to believe ignorance by slurping up what Fox and worse feeds them, are not going to be swayed one iota by logic, science or compassion. Proving my point exactly. I state I had issues with the pandemic response, you translate that as 'vaccines for polio should not have been created' even though I never suggested vaccines shouldn't have been invented?? Suggesting that viral illness is part and parcel of life doesn't mean we shouldn't take any vaccines, it is simply the truth - Biologists estimate that 380 trillion viruses are living on and inside your body right now! also you said 'How about lack of morality to suggest that people die rather than get a vaccine or wear a mask and social distance?' when I never said people should die rather than get a vaccine or said people shouldn't wear a mask? This is also the kind of false promise I was talking about - even if everyone wore a mask and social distanced some people would still have died from the virus because humans cannot fully control nature through 'good behaviour'. That doesn't mean such measures should never be used or have no effect, but we do have to be honest about what it is possible to achieve. The complete inability to engage with people that don't have the exact same point of view as yourself and stating that people who disagree with you on even the slightest point are 'choosing to believe ignorance by slurping up what Fox and worse feeds them' comes across as almost cult-like to me and is certainly not a scientific mindset. The refusal to even entertain the fact that years long border closures, or the dismissal of problems faced by people with disabilities such as a hearing impairments or enforced solitude could have negative consequences is mind blowing to me. But I guess it makes you feel superior and that's all that matters right?
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Post by aj2hall on Nov 22, 2022 15:51:35 GMT
I am very left wing and resonated with a lot of the criticisms of the pandemic response coming from the right (though for very different reasons). My main concerns were border closures, mandated vaccines, the huge transfer of wealth to the already rich, and the total dismissal of the fact humans are social animals and it is not selfish to want/need human contact outside of those you live with. We almost became total property of the state, told who we could interact with, when we could leave our houses, and what medical decisions we could make with no ability to argue without being shouted down as right wing babies who didn't care about others. There was also dismissal on the left of those who find mask wearing difficult (e.g people who are deaf or hard of hearing) which I found quite difficult to understand. IMO we collectively were unable to deal with the fact that humans do not have total control over nature and sometimes there is no good solution and bad things happen. Instead we pivoted to taking an almost religious view of science (that it is something to be 'believed in' or followed) and popularised the idea that if you 'behave' or do the 'right thing' you won't get ill. Viruses are part and parcel of animal life and it should never have been viewed as a moral failing to catch one. It has all become so tribal and that has done way more harm than good IMO, and I worry that if another pandemic comes along any time soon trust in public health will be very low. I agree with some of what you said, but I think the context is also important to recognize. Trump was in charge, badly mishandled the pandemic, downplayed the seriousness and politicized it. Had there been a different person in charge, we might have united together against the virus, similar to 9/11. Instead, Trump further divided the country. The Democrats were not perfect, there were certainly things that could have been done better. But, hindsight is 20/20. Most of the Democratic politicians tried to make decisions based on information available at the time and science. A lot of the undermining of public health came from Republicans who criticized it, deliberately undermined it and acted against it to score political points.
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Post by leftturnonly on Nov 22, 2022 16:38:06 GMT
Most of the Democratic politicians tried to make decisions based on information available at the time and science. 100% not true. The "science" proclaimed as truth THAT MUST BE FOLLOWED OR ELSE has been false. The scientific method that underlies what we have long considered hard science has been ignored and all those who presented factual evidence of what this virus was doing, whom it effected, and the simple therapeutic treatments that controlled the effects of the virus were shut down under tremendous penalty and duress. All for the benefit of a very few individuals whose accumulation of wealth and power has accelerated to heights never before seen on this earth. Good luck continuing to believe your delusions even as the truth becomes more visible each and every day.
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