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Post by aj2hall on Apr 23, 2024 18:43:59 GMT
Like Israel and Gaza, I think the campus protests are really complicated. I think students should be able to peacefully protest within certain parameters. Harassment, hate speech, anti-Semitic, xenophobic, racist or bigoted statements should not be tolerated. All students should feel safe on campus and the fact that a rabbi encouraged students to go home and the university switched to remote classes is concerning. But, I'm not sure if the protests at Columbia reached the level of arrests and suspensions? Unfortunately, protestors outside of Columbia were stirring up trouble and shouting anti-Semitic remarks. I do think it's possible to be pro-Palestinian, anti-Hamas and oppose Israel's actions in Gaza without being anti-Semitic. I think you can separate the actions of the government from the people. I think you can support the people of Gaza without questioning the legitimacy or existence of Israel. I recognize that Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorist attacks, within reason. Hamas is partially responsible for the loss of civilian life in Gaza for their instigation on October 7, holding hostages, their use of rockets and human shields among other things. But, I do think with today's technology that it is possible for Israel to take out their targets with fewer civilian casualties. And the living conditions and humanitarian situations seem untenable. I know this is a sensitive topic, I hope I expressed my thoughts respectfully without crossing the line and being anti-Semitic Gift articles - no paywall www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/us/columbia-university-remote-classes-protests.html?unlocked_article_code=1.mk0.pbg5.UXAPMQJ_bfZ7&smid=url-sharewapo.st/3U8iEXHwww.npr.org/2024/04/23/1246594938/pro-palestinian-campus-protests-columbia-yale-nyu |
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pantsonfire
Drama Llama
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 6,239 
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Post by pantsonfire on Apr 23, 2024 19:06:57 GMT
I feel for the Jewish students and staff/faculty that are being harassed in all this. I have seen videos were students and other protestors gang up on a single Jewish person and block them in. Others have been threatened and harmed. It is gross.
Protest. It is your right. But the safety and we'll being of others is equally as important and should be everyone's top priority.
Humboldt is the latest CA University to go to on line classes or no class depending on instructor. A friend's child goes there and it is a bit nerve wracking due to the out of hand issues at other Universities.
I don't see this ending well.
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 23, 2024 19:16:42 GMT
Without question, some of the protests and protestors have gone too far. But, it's hard to separate the actions of those protesters from the ones demonstrating peacefully without hate speech. And it's challenging when there are conflicting reports. ColumbiaJonathan Greenblatt. @jgreenblattadl
I spent yesterday afternoon at @columbia, walking the streets, meeting Jewish students, and observing the situation firsthand. I was shocked by what I found. 🧵
Jewish students have been explicitly threatened, increasingly menaced and physically attacked. Internal agitators and external provocateurs have laid siege to the campus. Public safety officers are incapable or unwilling to help.
Make no mistake, these “protests” have nothing to do with self-determination for Palestinians. This is about sanitizing Hamas and encouraging terror, right here, right now, in New York City. It should be unacceptable.
It’s time for the @columbia leadership to take concrete steps to protect our kids. And make no mistake, it starts with the Jewish students, but ultimately this will come for all students.
First, President Shafik must invite NYPD back on campus or @govkathyhochul should direct the National Guard to protect our kids.
Second, outlaw full-face masks on campus. Masks that cover the entire face have no bearing on Covid or free speech and should be banned on all college campuses effective immediately.
Third, campus administrators need to enforce the rules. If a student commits a violation, suspend them. If a non-student comes to campus and violates norms, arrest them for trespass. Rules have no value and laws have no meaning if they are not enforced.
In the end, they say you get the democracy you deserve. We deserve better than this. But if we don’t strive for better, it soon could be too late. We owe it to our students to not let that happen. |
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 23, 2024 19:29:16 GMT
Some of the protestors at Columbia are Jewish and some of the faculty joined them in the protest. I don't think there have been any reports of violence yet. The majority of students' intentions appear to be inclusive. Regrettably, there have been individuals who have taken the protest too far. thehill.com/homenews/education/4612264-columbia-faculty-joins-student-protests/The criticism comes as concerns rise over the safety of the Jewish student body at Columbia, with some accusing protesters of harassment. Columbia moved classes online starting Monday, hours before the Jewish holiday of Passover begins.
The Biden administration denounced the protests Sunday, calling them “blatantly antisemitic” and encouraging “calls for violence.” New York City Mayor Eric Adams (D) made similar comments.
A significant portion of the protesting students are Jewish, and protest groups have fought back against characterizations of their demonstrations as antisemitic. There have been no reports of violence from the protests.
“We are frustrated by media distractions focusing on inflammatory individuals who do not represent us,” protest leaders wrote in a statement Sunday. “Our members have been misidentified by a politically motivated mob.”
“We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand vigilant against non-students attempting to disrupt the solidarity being forged among students,” they continued. “Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, Jewish, Black and pro-Palestinian classmates and colleagues who represent the full diversity of our country.”
www.reuters.com/world/us/columbia-university-cancels-in-person-classes-after-pro-palestinian-protests-2024-04-22/Amid angry confrontations at Columbia between pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel groups, police have received reports of Israeli students having flags snatched from their hands, but no reports "of any physical harm against any student," Tarik Shappard, the chief police spokesperson, told a press conference.
Student protesters spent several nights sleeping in the open on the lawn, and have since set up tents again. Students have organized both Muslim and Jewish prayers at the encampment, and some have given speeches condemning Israel and Zionism and praising Palestinian armed resistance.
More than 100 Columbia faculty joined students on Monday in solidarity at the encampment, where an outdoor seder was planned to mark the first day of the Jewish Passover holiday.
U.S. President Joe Biden, who has been criticized by the protesters for supplying funding and weapons to Israel, said in a statement on Sunday that his administration has put the full force of the federal government behind protecting the Jewish community.
"Even in recent days, we've seen harassment and calls for violence against Jews," Biden said. "This blatant antisemitism is reprehensible and dangerous – and it has absolutely no place on college campuses, or anywhere in our country."
Student organizers from the Columbia encampment criticized the Biden statement, noting that some of the organizers are Jewish and that news outlets had focused on "inflammatory individuals who do not represent us."
"We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand vigilant against non-students attempting to disrupt the solidarity being forged among students – Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, Jewish, Black and pro-Palestinian classmates and colleagues," they said in a statement.
"It's very clear to us that people on the outside do not understand what this encampment is about," said Lea Salim, a Barnard sophomore who said she was one of 15 Jewish students arrested on the Columbia lawn last week. Salim said it was not antisemitic to criticize the state of Israel. |
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 23, 2024 19:49:27 GMT
I agree with him about a lot of things, but this does not seem like an accurate or fair assessment of the situation. Although, I might be a little sensitive as the mom of 3 boys in college. ColumbiaEveryday Americans are not going to tolerate rich, entitled college kids shitting on Jews and rooting for Hamas. No fucking way.Democrats, pay attention.eta - He has a different perspective today. I wonder what changed? free speech
Joe Walsh @walshfreedom
I think what’s happening on college campuses right now is a good thing & quintessentially American. And I say that as someone who is off the charts super pro-Israel. Because I also say that as someone who loves to see young people politically engaged. Even when, like now, I completely disagree with what they’re calling for. Yes, condemn all harassment of Jewish students, and yes, condemn all antisemitism, and yes, colleges must enforce their rules and keep their campuses safe, but come on, we’re having a passionate conversation on an important/emotional issue, and we’re practicing & testing the boundaries of free speech. It’ll get bumpy, let’s hope it doesn’t get violent, but overall this is really good stuff. |
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 23, 2024 20:22:39 GMT
None of these statements are OK. Jewish students being targeted and surrounded is absolutely not OK either. If the protests have gotten out of hand, maybe they should be shut down. I don't think there's a simple solution for protecting Jewish students from harassment and hate speech while at the same time protecting the right of the students whose intentions are to peacefully protest the actions of the Israeli government and support Palestinians who are suffering in Gaza. Maybe you just need to prioritize one group over another or prioritize students' safety and keep them safe from hate speech and harassment on campus. ColumbiaCongressman Jared Moskowitz @repmoskowitz
We all remember the horrific scenes in Charlottesville 7 years ago of neo-Nazis chanting “Jews will not replace us”.
The Columbia students shouting “Go back to Poland!” and “burn Tel Aviv to the ground” share the same hateful message: Jews are not welcome. |
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Post by sideways on Apr 23, 2024 20:25:27 GMT
Like Israel and Gaza, I think the campus protests are really complicated. I think students should be able to peacefully protest within certain parameters. Harassment, hate speech, anti-Semitic, xenophobic, racist or bigoted statements should not be tolerated. All students should feel safe on campus and the fact that a rabbi encouraged students to go home and the university switched to remote classes is concerning. But, I'm not sure if the protests at Columbia reached the level of arrests and suspensions? Unfortunately, protestors outside of Columbia were stirring up trouble and shouting anti-Semitic remarks. I do think it's possible to be pro-Palestinian, anti-Hamas and oppose Israel's actions in Gaza without being anti-Semitic. I think you can separate the actions of the government from the people. I think you can support the people of Gaza without questioning the legitimacy or existence of Israel. I recognize that Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorist attacks, within reason. Hamas is partially responsible for the loss of civilian life in Gaza for their instigation on October 7, holding hostages, their use of rockets and human shields among other things. But, I do think with today's technology that it is possible for Israel to take out their targets with fewer civilian casualties. And the living conditions and humanitarian situations seem untenable. I know this is a sensitive topic, I hope I expressed my thoughts respectfully without crossing the line and being anti-Semitic Gift articles - no paywall www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/us/columbia-university-remote-classes-protests.html?unlocked_article_code=1.mk0.pbg5.UXAPMQJ_bfZ7&smid=url-sharewapo.st/3U8iEXHwww.npr.org/2024/04/23/1246594938/pro-palestinian-campus-protests-columbia-yale-nyuI agree with everything you wrote. Jewish people aren’t responsible for what’s happening in Gaza like Palestinian people aren’t responsible for what happened on Oct. 7. Israel ≠ Jewish people, Hamas ≠ Palestinian people. I really don’t understand why that’s such a hard concept to grasp. Hate is hate and should never be tolerated, no matter who it’s directed towards. I do understand the anger over what’s happening in Gaza, but it’s no excuse for the bigotry that’s happening from some assholes. It’s such a fucking mess. Thank you for posting. It seems that this is a taboo subject around here. |
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Post by epeanymous on Apr 23, 2024 20:51:43 GMT
I was wondering when we'd get around to this. Our family is Jewish, and my husband this year has gotten an antisemitic threat of violence. There is, 100% antisemitism on the rise and you're going to find plenty of people who can attest to their own experiences on the receiving end of it. I also think that people are going to disagree about the appropriate resolution to what is happening in Gaza, who should be assigned responsibility for what, and the role of Hamas. I, personally, have always been on the side that either Israel needs to fully incorporate Palestinians in the territories into democratic life, or there needs to be a two-state solution. I also am specifically on the side, currently, that Israel's actions in Gaza have exceeded any plausible justification and that we need a ceasefire and a resolution. Again, definitely not everyone agrees on those things, and I know there are people who think Israel is justified and people who think the Jewish homeland version of Israel should not exist (I'm not in either of those camps).
I did all that as throat clearing because, while I don't claim to speak for all professors, I do spend all of my time being one and much of my time talking to other professors, and the general consensus among the people I talk to (people who disagree about the underlying substance of what is happening in Gaza) is that the arrests and suspensions we're seeing are inappropriate. I want to be clear that the university *administrators* I talk to view the arrests and suspensions favorably. It's interesting to see the divide. I think we've been poorly served by the fall of journalism here -- we should be able to easily agree on what, factually, is happening at these protests because there should be actual coverage, but, instead, I get a lot of "Jake Tapper just retweeted someone," which has been a frustrating way to try to assess what's happening. FWIW, from the various sources I've read, it sounds like the students have, for the most part, been engaged in peaceful protest that has included Jewish students, and that people outside of the academic communities have either had protests nearby or been in the protests, and that those folks have had more problematic behavior (I can say that has largely been the case with student protesters in past conflicts at my school). Again, I wish we had a better and more agreed-upon set of facts, but for me, universities are supposed to be communities in which people can disagree, sharply; in which we can protest; and in which we can understand that the young adults on our campus are growing and learning and that we have a pastoral role. I generally don't see how suspending and arresting students, absent violence or significant threats of it, is consistent with our mission.
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Post by Merge on Apr 23, 2024 20:56:21 GMT
TBH I find myself embarrassed at some of the rhetoric I hear coming from supposedly left-leaning writers and students on this. I wholeheartedly disagree with anyone claiming sympathy with Hamas or chanting "burn Tel Aviv to the ground." I disagree with anti-Semitic statements being made in any way. And I also disagree with the continued violence in Gaza. There has to be an end to this.
But also, yes, it's hard to tell exactly what is happening because the reporting is so inconsistent.
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Post by scrapmaven on Apr 23, 2024 21:08:55 GMT
sideways, you are not anti-semetic and I will say that after having accused you of it in a prior thread. Having read some more of your posts, I see your POV and I apologize that I called you anti-semetic when you are not. Someone on that thread said something so repulsive and wrong that I lost it and should have put my hands underneath my seat instead of typing. I own it. I don't agree w/everything happening in Israel/Gaza. However, I want both Islamic and Jewish people all over the world to be safe from hate. In this country we are supposed to be a melting pot for many cultures and it hurts all of us when one culture is targeted.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Apr 23, 2024 21:29:58 GMT
I think that the protests should be allowed if they are peaceful. However, I do not agree with anyone saying death to Jews or burn Tel Aviv to the ground. We hear more about anti-Semitism but incidents of Islamic hate are also on the rise. All students should feel safe on campus. I have read comments from people on social media saying that they were at protests and that they were peaceful and uniting, and that Jewish students and faculty were present as well. But I have also read that there are hateful messages being said. I am sure it is probably a combination of the two but I agree that better reporting would be helpful.
I also think that the arrests and attempts to silence the protestors have likely escalated the situation.
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Post by Jennifer C on Apr 23, 2024 21:31:06 GMT
I do not understand why these protests are being allowed. Anti Jewish and Pro Hamas? What??
Imagine if it were white supremists chanting against African American's. That would be shut down so fast.
Jennifer
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Post by sideways on Apr 23, 2024 22:14:11 GMT
sideways , you are not anti-semetic and I will say that after having accused you of it in a prior thread. Having read some more of your posts, I see your POV and I apologize that I called you anti-semetic when you are not. Someone on that thread said something so repulsive and wrong that I lost it and should have put my hands underneath my seat instead of typing. I own it. I don't agree w/everything happening in Israel/Gaza. However, I want both Islamic and Jewish people all over the world to be safe from hate. In this country we are supposed to be a melting pot for many cultures and it hurts all of us when one culture is targeted. Wow. Thank you. I truly appreciate that. |
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Post by nightnurse on Apr 23, 2024 22:23:03 GMT
When we talked about these types of protests on another thread, we seemed to agree that they should not inconvenience ordinary citizens as that just angered people. And since ordinary citizens can’t make change in this conflict, we should direct the protest energy towards politicians. But now we seem to be saying that students’ have a free speech right and should be allowed to exercise that in private property. But I don’t see how the colleges can do that and not only keep people safe, but keep them feeling safe. It’s an incredibly complex topic and I don’t know what the right answer is but it surely isn’t to have students at college harassed and screamed out and missing class over a conflict they have no control over.
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Post by mollycoddle on Apr 23, 2024 22:34:29 GMT
Without question, some of the protests and protestors have gone too far. But, it's hard to separate the actions of those protesters from the ones demonstrating peacefully without hate speech. And it's challenging when there are conflicting reports. ColumbiaJonathan Greenblatt. @jgreenblattadl
I spent yesterday afternoon at @columbia, walking the streets, meeting Jewish students, and observing the situation firsthand. I was shocked by what I found. 🧵
Jewish students have been explicitly threatened, increasingly menaced and physically attacked. Internal agitators and external provocateurs have laid siege to the campus. Public safety officers are incapable or unwilling to help.
Make no mistake, these “protests” have nothing to do with self-determination for Palestinians. This is about sanitizing Hamas and encouraging terror, right here, right now, in New York City. It should be unacceptable.
It’s time for the @columbia leadership to take concrete steps to protect our kids. And make no mistake, it starts with the Jewish students, but ultimately this will come for all students.
First, President Shafik must invite NYPD back on campus or @govkathyhochul should direct the National Guard to protect our kids.
Second, outlaw full-face masks on campus. Masks that cover the entire face have no bearing on Covid or free speech and should be banned on all college campuses effective immediately.
Third, campus administrators need to enforce the rules. If a student commits a violation, suspend them. If a non-student comes to campus and violates norms, arrest them for trespass. Rules have no value and laws have no meaning if they are not enforced.
In the end, they say you get the democracy you deserve. We deserve better than this. But if we don’t strive for better, it soon could be too late. We owe it to our students to not let that happen.Exactly. There are conflicting reports, and it’s hard to know what is going on. |
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Post by Merge on Apr 24, 2024 0:09:48 GMT
Another perspective. Though I would also say that I’m sure no one wants to just wait around until actual violence happens.  |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Apr 24, 2024 12:51:03 GMT
I do not understand why these protests are being allowed. Anti Jewish and Pro Hamas? What?? Imagine if it were white supremists chanting against African American's. That would be shut down so fast. Jennifer That is not what these protests are about, at all. I would hope white supremists would be shut down, but sadly they aren't. They have just as much right to gather as any american... Until it turns deadly like it did in Charlottesville a couple of years ago. time.com/charlottesville-white-nationalist-rally-clashes/ I agree with everything you wrote. Jewish people aren’t responsible for what’s happening in Gaza like Palestinian people aren’t responsible for what happened on Oct. 7. Israel ≠ Jewish people, Hamas ≠ Palestinian people. I really don’t understand why that’s such a hard concept to grasp. Hate is hate and should never be tolerated, no matter who it’s directed towards. I do understand the anger over what’s happening in Gaza, but it’s no excuse for the bigotry that’s happening from some assholes. It’s such a fucking mess. Thank you for posting. It seems that this is a taboo subject around here. Totally agree with all this!!!! I watched a very long TikTok of a student who explained what was going on at Columbia. It was very well done! I never stay for videos that long and damn if I didn't follow her. I hope I find her again. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Apr 24, 2024 15:43:32 GMT
An encampment has been set on one of my kid's university. I am really torn on this. There is a long, long history of productive protest that have originated on college campuses. I don't disregard it as a valid expression of our freedom of speech. But this is MESSY! Not just because in many cases in the past protests were around actual actions universities could take - even many of the civil rights protests could actually pinpoint discriminatory practices at the university - or at the very least actions our country could take to meaningfully address the concerns. Many of the actions protestors are hoping for are very much out of the US's hands.
There has also been AT TIMES (emphasis to be clear I'm not suggesting all these protests are the same or include these elements) extremely troubling targeting of races, religions and ethnicities of actual students who that have NOTHING to do with what's going on in the Middle East. Student and staff safety and lack of harassment is an issue. These are not easy issues for universities to navigate and do hope they err on the side of allowing peaceful protests while keeping safety for all on the forefront.
I will also go total first world perspective acknowledging that what's going on right now is horrific on many levels and people are suffering tremendously. But I would beyond livid if one of my kids' schools took the ridiculous route of shutting down campus. Bullshit. Especially 2024 graduates. They lost their high school graduation, they lost their freshman year - you're just going to go online the end of their senior year, because you can't figure out how to manage protests? I think it's an utter cop out. And yes as I stated, this doesn't compare to what's going on in the middle east, but as I stated - university presidents can do little about THAT - they can decide what is impacting their students and how they're receiving their education.
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 24, 2024 17:56:26 GMT
It might not amount to a lot and is a long term goal, but students are asking universities to divest and cut financial ties to companies that helped Israel with their actions in Gaza. eta - more on divesting. Gift article - no paywall www.nytimes.com/2024/04/24/business/college-protesters-divestment-israel.html?unlocked_article_code=1.m00.7moc.BCdzUm5UMDRD&smid=url-shareIt doesn’t make it OK, but I think Columbia only has 1 or 2 weeks left of classes. As the mom of a soon to be 2024 college grad who had a drive by high school graduation in 2020 at the start of covid, I understand the sentiment about not wanting to shut down and go remote. For these kids who might have started college remotely, it would be incredibly unfair for them to end their college experience remotely, too. |
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Post by smasonnc on Apr 24, 2024 18:02:01 GMT
As an undergrad, my daughter went on a research trip with a group from Notre Dame where they studied the region's history then stayed in both the Jewish and Palestinian areas to try to understand. The situation is much more complex than our media show us. I think students should be able to peacefully protest within certain parameters. Harassment, hate speech, anti-Semitic, xenophobic, racist or bigoted statements should not be tolerated. All students should feel safe on campus and the fact that a rabbi encouraged students to go home and the university switched to remote classes is concerning. This blows my mind that the students who are made to feel unsafe are getting sent home instead of the people who are making them feel unsafe. Communicating threats is illegal yet they're out there for the world to see with signs while the university administrators wring their hands and do nothing. A study showed that over half the students protesting couldn't name the river or the sea that they were chanting about and didn't realize they were calling for abolishing Israel. I think you can support the people of Gaza without questioning the legitimacy or existence of Israel. I And yet they don't. Hamas is partially responsible for the loss of civilian life in Gaza for their instigation on October 7, holding hostages, their use of rockets and human shields among other things. I'd say LARGELY responsible. They picked a fight and got one. I don't agree with what Netanyahu is doing, but the murder of civilians on October 7 doesn't bring anyone to the negotiating table. I'm shocked that so many people are condoning mass murder of civilians. |
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Post by gryroagain on Apr 24, 2024 18:18:49 GMT
I don’t know if this is the right place for these thoughts, as they aren’t about the college protests or what is happening in Gaza really.
But is anyone else getting uncomfortable by both now the right and the left being increasingly antisemitic? During the Trump administration we had Qananon and Charlottesville and all that. Now we have this. It seems an alarming uptick in blantantly antisemitic speech and actions (and I am not saying being horrified by Gaza or peacefully protesting is that).
I’m not Jewish nor have I lived in the US for many years, so maybe I am only seeing what makes it to media but even that if over represented gives me a very scary feeling somewhere in the back of my brain.
Though it isn’t just media, my social circle is progressive and I’ve definitely seen antisemitism and also some circling into what I think of as far right ideology and conspiracy theories.
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 24, 2024 18:59:27 GMT
I don’t know if this is the right place for these thoughts, as they aren’t about the college protests or what is happening in Gaza really. But is anyone else getting uncomfortable by both now the right and the left being increasingly antisemitic? During the Trump administration we had Qananon and Charlottesville and all that. Now we have this. It seems an alarming uptick in blantantly antisemitic speech and actions (and I am not saying being horrified by Gaza or peacefully protesting is that). I’m not Jewish nor have I lived in the US for many years, so maybe I am only seeing what makes it to media but even that if over represented gives me a very scary feeling somewhere in the back of my brain. Though it isn’t just media, my social circle is progressive and I’ve definitely seen antisemitism and also some circling into what I think of as far right ideology and conspiracy theories. I agree, anti-Semitism is not OK from either side of the aisle. And the rise of anti-Semitic incidents, especially since the Hamas attack, is alarming. At the same time, the rise of anti-Muslim speech, hate incidents and Islamaphobia is concerning, too. |
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 24, 2024 19:10:16 GMT
As an undergrad, my daughter went on a research trip with a group from Notre Dame where they studied the region's history then stayed in both the Jewish and Palestinian areas to try to understand. The situation is much more complex than our media show us. I think students should be able to peacefully protest within certain parameters. Harassment, hate speech, anti-Semitic, xenophobic, racist or bigoted statements should not be tolerated. All students should feel safe on campus and the fact that a rabbi encouraged students to go home and the university switched to remote classes is concerning. This blows my mind that the students who are made to feel unsafe are getting sent home instead of the people who are making them feel unsafe. Communicating threats is illegal yet they're out there for the world to see with signs while the university administrators wring their hands and do nothing. A study showed that over half the students protesting couldn't name the river or the sea that they were chanting about and didn't realize they were calling for abolishing Israel. Is this the study? www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-776987Because a poll of 250 college kids across the US seems somewhat flawed to begin with in terms of a small sampling and maybe not representative of the students protesting at Columbia. I imagine there are some students there at the protest who could not name the river and don't understand the meaning. College age kids can be impulsive and don't always have the best judgement. However, I would hope that the majority of the students at the Columbia protest who are risking being arrested and/or suspended have educated themselves a little about the situation. I don't know if it matters that Columbia is an Ivy League school, but I would hope that students there are at least little informed about the issues. eta - This is not at all scientific and just an anecdote, but I have 3 college age boys and was curious. No protests are happening at any of their colleges. The older two who are more up to date on current events knew exactly what from the river to the sea meant, but the youngest did not. |
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 24, 2024 19:19:32 GMT
I recognize that the situation in Gaza and the Iraeli-Palestinian conflict is really complicated. I don't pretend to understand all of the nuances and history. And maybe as a Christian and an American, I never will.
I think the protests are just as complicated. The harassment and anti-Semitic remarks are absolutely unacceptable and should not be tolerated. However, I do think some of the students who are there peacefully protesting the actions of the Israeli government and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza have voices that deserve to be heard. The fact that 100 professors are standing there in solidarity with them tells me that at least part of the protest is reasonable and legitimate. I don't know how you separate that from harassment and anti-Semetic remarks, especially when some of that is coming from outside of the campus gates. I don't know how secure the campus is and if they're able to close the gates and keep outsiders out. Other universities definitely do not have that ability.
Columbia had students arrested by the NYPD and suspended and broke down the encampment but students returned the next day. I have conflicted feelings about that, but Columbia is making an effort, they're not just allowing the harassment and anti-Semitic remarks.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of conflicting reports about what is happening at Columbia, so it's hard to know what to believe and what to trust. Also, students probably have different perspectives. Setting aside the clear cases of anti-Semitism like burn Tel Aviv and from the river to the seas, some students might be intimidated by certain speech, others might not be.
I think in some ways the protests are similar to the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020. The vast majority of those were peaceful, but there were some bad actors and criminals who took advantage of the situation with looting and violence.
I think colleges in recent years have really struggled with the conflict between allowing free speech, encouraging discussions and conversations while at the same time protecting students from hate speech. I know colleges a few years ago struggled with what to do about conservative speakers like Charlie Kirk and Ben Shapiro that make provacative and anti-LGBTQ statements. For better or worse, the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that hate speech is protected by the first amendment.
I also think politicians trying to capitalize on the situation by calling for university presidents to resign and threatening to revoke federal funding is not helpful.
There are definitely a lot of questions and I don't have any answers.
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Apr 24, 2024 19:39:54 GMT
I was wondering when we'd get around to this. Our family is Jewish, and my husband this year has gotten an antisemitic threat of violence. There is, 100% antisemitism on the rise and you're going to find plenty of people who can attest to their own experiences on the receiving end of it. I also think that people are going to disagree about the appropriate resolution to what is happening in Gaza, who should be assigned responsibility for what, and the role of Hamas. I, personally, have always been on the side that either Israel needs to fully incorporate Palestinians in the territories into democratic life, or there needs to be a two-state solution. I also am specifically on the side, currently, that Israel's actions in Gaza have exceeded any plausible justification and that we need a ceasefire and a resolution. Again, definitely not everyone agrees on those things, and I know there are people who think Israel is justified and people who think the Jewish homeland version of Israel should not exist (I'm not in either of those camps). I did all that as throat clearing because, while I don't claim to speak for all professors, I do spend all of my time being one and much of my time talking to other professors, and the general consensus among the people I talk to (people who disagree about the underlying substance of what is happening in Gaza) is that the arrests and suspensions we're seeing are inappropriate. I want to be clear that the university *administrators* I talk to view the arrests and suspensions favorably. It's interesting to see the divide. I think we've been poorly served by the fall of journalism here -- we should be able to easily agree on what, factually, is happening at these protests because there should be actual coverage, but, instead, I get a lot of "Jake Tapper just retweeted someone," which has been a frustrating way to try to assess what's happening. FWIW, from the various sources I've read, it sounds like the students have, for the most part, been engaged in peaceful protest that has included Jewish students, and that people outside of the academic communities have either had protests nearby or been in the protests, and that those folks have had more problematic behavior (I can say that has largely been the case with student protesters in past conflicts at my school). Again, I wish we had a better and more agreed-upon set of facts, but for me, universities are supposed to be communities in which people can disagree, sharply; in which we can protest; and in which we can understand that the young adults on our campus are growing and learning and that we have a pastoral role. I generally don't see how suspending and arresting students, absent violence or significant threats of it, is consistent with our mission.I'm sorry your husband and the rest of the Jewish community that is not Zionistic, militant Jews occupying land in the West Bank and perpetrating human rights violations are experiencing hate. Threats, and in some cases actual violence. That is not ok, in any way, and it needs to stop, immediately. Believe me, if it happened in my presence, I would say something, and not silently stand by. I live and work in a vibrant city that has an amazing number of incredible colleges, and as such tends to be liberal college land. Science, research and everything thinking goes on here, and we have some really controversial things going on at the moment. I just spent two hours on a bridge in rush hour to go one block to get home last night (before the remainder of my commute) because of (just one of the) protests in my city. The night before, I had to show my ID to 2 different police on my way out of the city to access a specific highway and drive through National Guard troops. (I am still chewing on that- I think there was something very very wrong with that- but I was driving, I couldn't not produce it.) It was irritating as hell. But I 100% support those protestors right to say what they need to say. And at the end of the day, the Freedom of Speech is part of what makes our country so special. Even if I sometimes don't like what is coming out of their mouths, they have every right to say it, peacefully. As a citizen and a veteran, I believe in bodily autonomy, free speech and free markets. There are no shortage of protests to address these things around here. As for these wars, I have alot of conflicted feelings, and alot of strong, absolute feelings. I have been sick about the Palestinian plight and torture for years and years, and honestly I'm GLAD that people are talking about it. I believe when people cannot say things out loud, even ugly things, they get pushed down, down, down, and they enter their spaces and groups with which they feel they can speak freely and it becomes an echo chamber then solidifies and amplifies the negativity and hate. It also has the effect of fortifying the us vs them mentality and an unwillingness to seek or even accept compromise. No one wins. I'm glad that there are professors supporting these students rights to be students at the University they are paying for and utilize common areas (that they are paying for) to have their voices heard. I hate that the main message of the Columbia students (quit using their tuition money to support companies supporting violence against Palestinians) is being lost due to the fringe that just can't seem to see their way through to acting like decent humans. I agree with every single word you wrote, especially the bolded. |
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Post by smasonnc on Apr 24, 2024 19:56:32 GMT
I'm glad that there are professors supporting these students rights to be students at the University they are paying for and utilize common areas (that they are paying for) to have their voices heard. I hate that the main message of the Columbia students (quit using their tuition money to support companies supporting violence against Palestinians) is being lost due to the fringe that just can't seem to see their way through to acting like decent humans. We are a country of laws. Even if you're paying tuition to use common areas, they should not be able to use those areas to threaten other students. Their aggressive stance has closed the door to compromise and lost them any sympathy they might have had had they been peaceful. They have a point, but their actions are muddying their message. I lived right in the middle of the Hong Kong protests. When one of the students got heated, they cautioned that person to be calm so as not give the police or the general public a reason to turn against them. |
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 25, 2024 14:20:39 GMT
Reports are conflicting but it seems like the majority of protesters at Columbia are not threatening other students. Some of the anti-Semitic comments came from outside protesters, outside the gates. Colleges and universities are pushing back, especially in Texas. www.nytimes.com/2024/04/24/us/college-protests-spread-austin-dallas.htmlUniversity administrators from Texas to California moved to clear protesters and prevent encampments from taking hold on their own campuses as they have at Columbia University, deploying police in tense new confrontations that already have led to dozens of arrests. |
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Post by aj2hall on Apr 25, 2024 14:30:23 GMT
An interesting perspective on the protests, not as a free speech conflict, but the desire of students to denounce oppression vs order. www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/briefing/college-protests.htmlChaos and Oppression The central question for universities responding to protests is whether to prioritize the preservation of order or the desire of students to denounce oppression. |
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Post by epeanymous on Apr 25, 2024 15:32:34 GMT
An interesting perspective on the protests, not as a free speech conflict, but the desire of students to denounce oppression vs order. www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/briefing/college-protests.htmlChaos and Oppression The central question for universities responding to protests is whether to prioritize the preservation of order or the desire of students to denounce oppression. I think people across the political spectrum have been mis-framing a variety of university conflicts as “free speech” for years and that it really warps public discourse. |
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pantsonfire
Drama Llama
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 6,239
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Post by pantsonfire on Apr 25, 2024 16:51:22 GMT
Well at Cal Poly Humboldt things are bad. A friend's child goes there.
Students and non students have entered areas and locked themselves in. Restrooms have stopped working. And they are destroying property through damage, stealing, breaking, and tagging.
The tags are anti-Semitic. Programs and events are now canceled. Students and staff are asked to leave due to the threat of violence.
This is not peaceful protesting. And it seems outside agitators are instigating things.
That makes me uneasy that non students could easily access campus areas.
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