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Post by Merge on Aug 9, 2024 18:09:05 GMT
Reread what Merge posted on this. What is being forgiven is the excessive interest that is being charged that’s well over and above the principal amount that was initially borrowed. It’s not like someone took out a $10K loan, paid nothing on it for a decade and the principal on that debt is now being wiped out. It’s more like someone borrowed $10K, has already paid back that $10K plus a boatload of interest already, but yet they still somehow owe $10K fifteen years later. It’s the predatory lending that’s the problem. What’s being forgiven is the excessive interest that these folks still find themselves owing. The whole system needs to be overhauled. Don't tell me what you *think* and try to pass it off as fact. I agree predatory lending is a problem. And I agree the whole system needs to be overhauled. If I go and buy a dryer at Best Buy and spend $1000 and pay only the minimum, absolutely, I'll pay more and more for interest, and I'll pay much much longer. Student loans are even more set up against the borrower. My point is, you got the degree. You ate the food. You lived in the dorm. Maybe even semesters abroad. Got to be in the sorority and got to learn more about things that interest you. You got the contacts, you got the information. You got the alma mater and maybe even enjoyed some games etc. Then, you got out of college and had a leg up getting a higher paying job than a person who didn't go to college (in the vast number of cases.) And, if you dropped out and didn't get that, well.. you dropped out. You opted to waste the investment. You know what you owe. We all *KNOW* if you have a loan and you CHOOSE to pay it off like a snail, the capital costs you more money. Period. Make no mistake- I don't misunderstand. And, until you're willing to pay me back the interest I paid on my credit cards and the higher interest I paid on my car loan while I learned how to be a better steward of my credit and finances- I have no "interest" in paying off the interest that students opted to commit to. K? Please don’t believe that everyone who has student loans had the pie in the sky experience you seem to believe they did. Many come from working class families and commute to the local university while working and living at home. They took out loans because it’s not possible to “work your way through” any more. Costs are too high. My student loans - which I paid off in full - were taken while I was living in a shithole apartment and working three jobs during grad school. No dorm, no sorority, no fancy college experience. Just grinding out that degree as quickly as possible because, at the time, it was supposed to make my teaching salary higher. (That’s no longer true, though it has made me a better teacher.) |
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Aug 9, 2024 18:27:57 GMT
I don't believe many had this pie in the sky experience, but all had some version of at least some of it.
My daughter came from a working class family and lived on campus and was required live on campus and to have a meal plan the first two years because it was required (money making opportunity for the school.) She worked, and had to take out loans. I agree, working your way through college is nearly impossible. She took out more and larger loans that she really had to- to be able to keep up with her friend group and study abroad and have her earned money as spending money.
Her choice. And those loans are her problem.
My son saw the $8k student loan that he can get, and his eyes were huge!! He looked at it as ACTUAL money that he will have to pay. I honestly don't think he realizes that he can pay it back $30 at a time for the next 50 years. (Exaggeration- but... I've been out of high school 30 years and these folks are still complaining about their student loans.
People just continue to sign these student loan forms like it's just going to work itself out. I think that is the main difference in mindset. This is real money, with the intent of setting a person up in their career. It is irresponsible and gross to assume that burden isn't on the person that benefitted. I will repeat, here, that I absolutely agree that these loans are predatory and they should be overhauled. As should the whole financial aid system.
FWIW-- I have a number of degrees. Ironically, the job that I currently do didn't actually require but a 2 year degree when I got started, and I could have easily gotten around that. Now, it requires a 4 year degree, and most people have to have at least a masters. Along with rethinking the financial aid process, and loan process, it's good to see states like PA re-evaluating the degree requirements for certain roles. More of that needs to happen.
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Gem Girl
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 29, 2014 19:29:52 GMT
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Post by Gem Girl on Aug 9, 2024 19:28:08 GMT
Can most families could afford to buy that Chrome Book themselves? Yes, they can. But the school has decided that use of that item is now part of the school environment and therefore is covered as part of the public school education in my district. The school may have gotten a better per-unit price for them by buying in that quantity, too. |
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Post by Merge on Aug 9, 2024 19:30:25 GMT
I don't believe many had this pie in the sky experience, but all had some version of at least some of it. My daughter came from a working class family and lived on campus and was required live on campus and to have a meal plan the first two years because it was required (money making opportunity for the school.) She worked, and had to take out loans. I agree, working your way through college is nearly impossible. She took out more and larger loans that she really had to- to be able to keep up with her friend group and study abroad and have her earned money as spending money. Her choice. And those loans are her problem. My son saw the $8k student loan that he can get, and his eyes were huge!! He looked at it as ACTUAL money that he will have to pay. I honestly don't think he realizes that he can pay it back $30 at a time for the next 50 years. (Exaggeration- but... I've been out of high school 30 years and these folks are still complaining about their student loans. People just continue to sign these student loan forms like it's just going to work itself out. I think that is the main difference in mindset. This is real money, with the intent of setting a person up in their career. It is irresponsible and gross to assume that burden isn't on the person that benefitted. I will repeat, here, that I absolutely agree that these loans are predatory and they should be overhauled. As should the whole financial aid system. FWIW-- I have a number of degrees. Ironically, the job that I currently do didn't actually require but a 2 year degree when I got started, and I could have easily gotten around that. Now, it requires a 4 year degree, and most people have to have at least a masters. Along with rethinking the financial aid process, and loan process, it's good to see states like PA re-evaluating the degree requirements for certain roles. More of that needs to happen. I guess from my perspective, I’d been earning $3.35/hr minimum wage all through college, so the $21K I was offered as a first year teacher felt like it was going to be wealth. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. |
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Post by crazy4scraps on Aug 9, 2024 19:49:22 GMT
My point is, you got the degree. You ate the food. You lived in the dorm. Maybe even semesters abroad. Got to be in the sorority and got to learn more about things that interest you. You got the contacts, you got the information. You got the alma mater and maybe even enjoyed some games etc. Then, you got out of college and had a leg up getting a higher paying job than a person who didn't go to college (in the vast number of cases.) And, if you dropped out and didn't get that, well.. you dropped out. You opted to waste the investment. You know what you owe. We all *KNOW* if you have a loan and you CHOOSE to pay it off like a snail, the capital costs you more money. Period. Make no mistake- I don't misunderstand. And, until you're willing to pay me back the interest I paid on my credit cards and the higher interest I paid on my car loan while I learned how to be a better steward of my credit and finances- I have no "interest" in paying off the interest that students opted to commit to. K? Please don’t believe that everyone who has student loans had the pie in the sky experience you seem to believe they did. Many come from working class families and commutes to the local university while working and living at home. They took out loans because it’s not possible to “work your way through” any more. Costs are too high. My student loans - which I paid off in full - were taken while I was living in a shithole apartment and working three jobs during grad school. No dorm, no sorority, no fancy college experience. Just grinding out that degree as quickly as possible because, at the time, it was supposed to make my teaching salary higher. (That’s no longer true, though it has made me a better teacher.) I didn’t have a pie in the sky college experience either. When I graduated HS, there was no way I could afford to go to college. I filled out the financial aid stuff and because my mom’s house was paid off (only because my dad died and she paid it off with his life insurance money), they expected her to take out a mortgage to pay for my school. That was not happening, I understood why it couldn’t, and I also couldn’t swallow the thought of taking out tens of thousands of dollars in student loans. So I didn’t go. I will also say that back in the day as a very high achieving student in HS (#22 out of 600+ in my graduating class), I was led to believe by counselors, teachers, virtually everyone that college was the ONLY viable option. When I mentioned I was considering going to a community college for the first couple years, my guidance counselor literally rolled his eyes and told me that would be a huge mistake and a waste of my time and that a four year school was the only way to go. Sigh. This was before the days of PSEO, so the entire expense of four years of college would have been on me since I knew going in that my mom had zero dollars to contribute. My DH had a full ride due to his mom being on the faculty where he chose to go to school. Because of that, we prioritized his going first while I worked 2-3 jobs. He was under a time limit to finish, which he did. Then I had the opportunity to go to college, so I did. While I was able to receive a little bit of financial aid in the form of a Pell grant for one year, it wasn’t significant. I lived at home with my DH (and yes, we were already married by that time), continued to work nearly full time while pulling down mostly A’s with a full course load. Also no dorm, no sorority, no semesters abroad, no “college life” happening here either for either of us. Ideal? Hell no, especially considering that the school I was attending discontinued my major halfway through, leaving me totally high and dry and sitting on close to $20K in student loans when I walked away (which I eventually paid off in full, with a little help from my in-laws). There was no local option to continue that specific course of study, and I had zero options to finish that degree out of state. If I would have been able to finish, it was likely that I could have landed a job that paid $50-60K a year right out of the chute, but that was not to be because there was no feasible way for me to get to that finish line with my life circumstances and finances at the time. Sometimes it isn’t the student’s choice to drop out. Sometimes a person’s hand is forced. Years later DH closed the business he owned and ran for ten years in favor of starting over at zero as a lowly apprentice in a trade. He didn’t go to trade school, he worked under a master craftsman getting in enough hours to take the journeyman test, passing that, working more hours still until he could take the master test, passing that, and eventually branching out on his own again after getting screwed over by his former business partner. He took out zero loans to achieve that status, just years of hard work and on the job training. It is possible to get into the trades without going to a single day of trade school because my DH did it and so have many of the people we know in several related fields. I will say that we do feel very lucky that DH’s BA didn’t cost us anything really, but it also didn’t really benefit us either compared to what it would have cost if we would have had to pay the going rate at the time to get it. |
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Post by hopemax on Aug 9, 2024 19:54:40 GMT
I like seeing enrollment is down. Maybe the colleges will dial it back a little and the people that pay with real dollars- that *they* earned, will see a benefit. Schools will just recruit and allocate more spots for international students. That's the trend anyway, as colleges seek to shore up financial shortfalls. Then due to US immigration policy, some other country will end up benefiting from their labor while the US is facing headwinds in many professions. Or schools will eliminate programs, as we are already seeing. Despite what people want to believe, we do need International history, foreign language and other types of liberal arts studies that help explain and direct US reaction when world events grow into situations that affect all of us through the economy. It's all just another symptom of the friction between desiring a modern society and infrastructure, without a societal effort to fund it. And thanks to the culture wars there are targeted attempts to break higher education, especially. Between AI blurring the line between real and fake information, the attacks on libraries and higher education... those dystopian stories where society simply forgets how to do what we consider normal things at scale, which benefit people across income and cultural lines, once the older generation dies out, and return to being signs of privilege... I'm starting to see it. |
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Post by melanell on Aug 9, 2024 19:58:30 GMT
Can most families could afford to buy that Chrome Book themselves? Yes, they can. But the school has decided that use of that item is now part of the school environment and therefore is covered as part of the public school education in my district. The school may have gotten a better per-unit price for them by buying in that quantity, too. And the same with food.  |
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Aug 9, 2024 20:18:17 GMT
Years later DH closed the business he owned and ran for ten years in favor of starting over at zero as a lowly apprentice in a trade. He didn’t go to trade school, he worked under a master craftsman getting in enough hours to take the journeyman test, passing that, working more hours still until he could take the master test, passing that, and eventually branching out on his own again after getting screwed over by his former business partner. He took out zero loans to achieve that status, just years of hard work and on the job training. It is possible to get into the trades without going to a single day of trade school because my DH did it and so have many of the people we know in several related fields. I'm very happy for you. I graduated HS with all A's and didn't even know that college loans were a thing. My parents had no money for me to go to school. They were doing well to keep the lights and water on. And even though I had straight A's for as long as I can remember (definitely all of HS and MS) and cut school more than I went, not one teacher or guidance counselor ever checked into what was going on in my world, or talked about college. I couldn't afford to take the SAT when everyone else did, and I just didn't ask. Bottom line, I fell, hard, through the cracks. I'm glad it all worked out for you. And it all worked out for me too. Just a whole different route. As for being a tradesman without schooling? NOT in my state today. Maybe at some time in the past, but not today. Please don't spread false information. This is true for plumbing, pipefitting, sprinkers, electricians, hvac/r... This is in addition to thousands of hours of specifically documented work experience. You can't just "do it" and take a test. www.mass.gov/how-to/apply-for-a-journeyman-plumber-license |
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Post by Merge on Aug 9, 2024 20:21:18 GMT
The school may have gotten a better per-unit price for them by buying in that quantity, too. And the same with food. Also RE: the Chromebooks. At least in my district, they all have to be district owned and imaged to be on the district internet. They have strict internet security and student-owned devices can only access the much less robust "guest" wifi. |
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Post by crazy4scraps on Aug 9, 2024 20:27:35 GMT
Years later DH closed the business he owned and ran for ten years in favor of starting over at zero as a lowly apprentice in a trade. He didn’t go to trade school, he worked under a master craftsman getting in enough hours to take the journeyman test, passing that, working more hours still until he could take the master test, passing that, and eventually branching out on his own again after getting screwed over by his former business partner. He took out zero loans to achieve that status, just years of hard work and on the job training. It is possible to get into the trades without going to a single day of trade school because my DH did it and so have many of the people we know in several related fields. I'm very happy for you. I graduated HS with all A's and didn't even know that college loans were a thing. My parents had no money for me to go to school. They were doing well to keep the lights and water on. And even though I had straight A's for as long as I can remember (definitely all of HS and MS) and cut school more than I went, not one teacher or guidance counselor ever checked into what was going on in my world, or talked about college. I couldn't afford to take the SAT when everyone else did, and I just didn't ask. Bottom line, I fell, hard, through the cracks. I'm glad it all worked out for you. And it all worked out for me too. Just a whole different route. As for being a tradesman without schooling? NOT in my state today. Maybe at some time in the past, but not today. Please don't spread false information. This is true for plumbing, pipefitting, sprinkers, electricians, hvac/r... This is in addition to thousands of hours of specifically documented work experience. You can't just "do it" and take a test. www.mass.gov/how-to/apply-for-a-journeyman-plumber-licenseI’m not spreading false information. In my state (MN), you can do it because my DH DID IT. So did the apprentice that worked for DH for a couple years, he was already an apprentice when he started with us and made it to journeyman without going to a day of trade school. ETA: My DH didn’t just do it and take a test, he had to work under the supervision of a licensed master for a number of years before he had enough hours logged in to take each test. It took him five years to get enough hours under his belt to take the master test. |
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Post by crazy4scraps on Aug 9, 2024 20:29:02 GMT
And the same with food. Also RE: the Chromebooks. At least in my district, they all have to be district owned and imaged to be on the district internet. They have strict internet security and student-owned devices can only access the much less robust "guest" wifi. It also benefits everyone if all of the students are using the same equipment. |
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paget
Drama Llama
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Jun 25, 2014 21:16:39 GMT
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Post by paget on Aug 9, 2024 20:35:18 GMT
I'm very happy for you. I graduated HS with all A's and didn't even know that college loans were a thing. My parents had no money for me to go to school. They were doing well to keep the lights and water on. And even though I had straight A's for as long as I can remember (definitely all of HS and MS) and cut school more than I went, not one teacher or guidance counselor ever checked into what was going on in my world, or talked about college. I couldn't afford to take the SAT when everyone else did, and I just didn't ask. Bottom line, I fell, hard, through the cracks. I'm glad it all worked out for you. And it all worked out for me too. Just a whole different route. As for being a tradesman without schooling? NOT in my state today. Maybe at some time in the past, but not today. Please don't spread false information. This is true for plumbing, pipefitting, sprinkers, electricians, hvac/r... This is in addition to thousands of hours of specifically documented work experience. You can't just "do it" and take a test. www.mass.gov/how-to/apply-for-a-journeyman-plumber-licenseI’m not spreading false information. In my state (MN), you can do it because my DH DID IT. So did the apprentice that worked for DH for a couple years, he was already an apprentice when he started with us and made it to journeyman without going to a day of trade school. ETA: My DH didn’t just do it and take a test, he had to work under the supervision of a licensed master for a number of years before he had enough hours logged in to take each test. It took him five years to get enough hours under his belt to take the master test. This is also how it works in our state for electricians- you wouldn’t have to go to school. You work under the licensed electrician and when you have enough hours you are eligible to take the exam. |
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Aug 9, 2024 20:37:32 GMT
I'm very happy for you. I graduated HS with all A's and didn't even know that college loans were a thing. My parents had no money for me to go to school. They were doing well to keep the lights and water on. And even though I had straight A's for as long as I can remember (definitely all of HS and MS) and cut school more than I went, not one teacher or guidance counselor ever checked into what was going on in my world, or talked about college. I couldn't afford to take the SAT when everyone else did, and I just didn't ask. Bottom line, I fell, hard, through the cracks. I'm glad it all worked out for you. And it all worked out for me too. Just a whole different route. As for being a tradesman without schooling? NOT in my state today. Maybe at some time in the past, but not today. Please don't spread false information. This is true for plumbing, pipefitting, sprinkers, electricians, hvac/r... This is in addition to thousands of hours of specifically documented work experience. You can't just "do it" and take a test. www.mass.gov/how-to/apply-for-a-journeyman-plumber-licenseI’m not spreading false information. In my state (MN), you can do it because my DH DID IT. So did the apprentice that worked for DH for a couple years, he was already an apprentice when he started with us and made it to journeyman without going to a day of trade school. According to you, you can do it *IN MN* without a day of trade school. It IS NOT possible in many other states. I'm guessing it may also be trade specific. |
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Aug 9, 2024 20:40:35 GMT
I’m not spreading false information. In my state (MN), you can do it because my DH DID IT. So did the apprentice that worked for DH for a couple years, he was already an apprentice when he started with us and made it to journeyman without going to a day of trade school. ETA: My DH didn’t just do it and take a test, he had to work under the supervision of a licensed master for a number of years before he had enough hours logged in to take each test. It took him five years to get enough hours under his belt to take the master test. This is also how it works in our state for electricians- you wouldn’t have to go to school. You work under the licensed electrician and when you have enough hours you are eligible to take the exam. Here, to be an electrician, it is 600 hours of board approved education and not less than 8000 clock hours over not less than 4 years with a licensed journeyman. Kind of crazy that there is such a difference. www.mass.gov/how-to/apply-for-an-individual-electrical-or-systems-license#:~:text=Applicants%20must%20have%20600%20hours,of%20a%20Massachusetts%20licensed%20Journeyman. I'm in a democrat run state, are you? |
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ellen
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by ellen on Aug 9, 2024 20:48:28 GMT
Since we are now talking about student loans I’ll tell you about another thing that happened during MN’s last budget session. Students whose families make less than $80k per year can attend our state schools tuition free. It’s good for students and the schools. It was not incredibly expensive to do either considering that students still fill out the FAFSA forms. I do some subbing at the high school level and when I talked to high school kids several of them told me that they were choosing to attend schools where they could go tuition free. Many students are using the program to attend trade schools - I’ve done some subbing in shop classes. I am currently paying for college for my own kid and I’m not mad about it. Tim Walz was able to do this with a one seat majority in the legislature. He gets things done and doesn’t worry too much about his next election. There has been a lot of complaining about us being socialist, but as people benefit from these things they start to understand and like it. North Star Promise Scholarship Program |
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Aug 9, 2024 21:00:17 GMT
Since we are now talking about student loans I’ll tell you about another thing that happened during MN’s last budget session. Students whose families make less than $80k per year can attend our state schools tuition free. It’s good for students and the schools. It was not incredibly expensive to do either considering that students still fill out the FAFSA forms. I do some subbing at the high school level and when I talked to high school kids several of them told me that they were choosing to attend schools where they could go tuition free. Many students are using the program to attend trade schools - I’ve done some subbing in shop classes. I am currently paying for college for my own kid and I’m not mad about it. Tim Walz was able to do this with a one seat majority in the legislature. He gets things done and doesn’t worry too much about his next election. There has been a lot of complaining about us being socialist, but as people benefit from these things they start to understand and like it. North Star Promise Scholarship ProgramI wonder how much the students families who make 80-90k pay? |
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Post by mom on Aug 9, 2024 21:00:40 GMT
I gave mixed feelings about paying off student loan debt. But again, people get up in arms about programs that help everyday people (even if it isn’t them) yet don’t say a word about all of the other subsidies and payouts that the government does for corporations, farmers, bankruptcies, the oil industry, and so on. I don't have mixed feelings at all about student loan debt. I don't agree with forgiving it. Any of it. Period. With that said, I absolutely take issue with not only charging my son more while his taxes could potentially go toward repaying someone else's debt. The training he starts in November is $26,000 for 14 months of 5 hours a night, M-T classes. He will do this in addition to his job (where he is earning his apprentice hours.) To do his job he does need a car, and he needs a car to get to his classes, as well. He also provides his own tools (now- that was a ramp up.) I find it absolutely ridiculous that federal student aid (paid for by tax payers) and state school financial aid (paid by tax payers) and goodness knows what I am not thinking about- has allowed the cost of college to balloon and skyrocket needlessly and everyone pays into the machine. I find it ironic that so many people don't realize that people who go into the trades ALSO have to also pay for schooling, so they act as if "going into the trades" is a magic salve. My son works harder than I EVER have and his apprentice hours don't pay a living wage in our area, not even close. If he wants to ever earn more than that, or open his own business, etc, he has to get licensed. I cannot understand why a guy who has been working full time for the last 4.5 years has to have his parents income figure into his financial aid calculation. Further, based on the fact both his dad and I earn too much, he will only be able to take out about 8k in loan, and must pay the remaining 15k. But--- of course, they are happy to work with me on a parent plus loan. Eye roll. If politicians (any of them) truly cared about making education affordable/attainable for people who are willing to work their asses off for it, the conversation wouldn't be about clearing or reducing debt of people that signed up for it and have benefited from it (or could have should have) for years and decades. It would be about reining in the cost and making education attainable to people who are willing to work for it. I have NO idea why the government considers me a payer for a 22 year old grown ass adult who is living a 22 year old gown ass adult life. When my daughter went to college (State School) her roommate (who I absolutely love and has made an amazing go of her education and career and is an awesome human) was in the same program, and because she had one parent that died, and another that was low income, had every penny of her schooling paid for. Including dorm and meal plan. My daughter is still paying off her (modest because we helped) loans. College and healthcare are huge business- they both provide for the wealthy (via all the other ways they are able to squirrel away money) and low income. Everyone else.... the overlap just crushes. That's where the rub is for me. My son has put years into his trade. He literally just finished plumbing an entire new dorm building with his mentor- yet for him to get the schooling for his license, he has to go into debt, whereas his peers who managed to get some girl pregnant have their schooling paid for. Granted, that's a whooooole other ball of wax.. but the point is- why would he get aid if he had a kid, but if he is a responsible person, he doesn't. Gah. It's Friday... I'm putting this stressor out of my mind. I am with you, @fuzzymutt . On all of it. |
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Gem Girl
Pearl Clutcher
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Posts: 2,686
Jun 29, 2014 19:29:52 GMT
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Post by Gem Girl on Aug 9, 2024 21:09:15 GMT
According to you, you can do it *IN MN* without a day of trade school. It IS NOT possible in many other states. I'm guessing it may also be trade specific. Unions probably have some input, too. |
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Post by Merge on Aug 9, 2024 21:24:36 GMT
Since we are now talking about student loans I’ll tell you about another thing that happened during MN’s last budget session. Students whose families make less than $80k per year can attend our state schools tuition free. It’s good for students and the schools. It was not incredibly expensive to do either considering that students still fill out the FAFSA forms. I do some subbing at the high school level and when I talked to high school kids several of them told me that they were choosing to attend schools where they could go tuition free. Many students are using the program to attend trade schools - I’ve done some subbing in shop classes. I am currently paying for college for my own kid and I’m not mad about it. Tim Walz was able to do this with a one seat majority in the legislature. He gets things done and doesn’t worry too much about his next election. There has been a lot of complaining about us being socialist, but as people benefit from these things they start to understand and like it. North Star Promise Scholarship ProgramI wonder how much the students families who make 80-90k pay? Valid. I was one of those kids whose parents made a bit too much to qualify for Pell grants but not enough to actually pay for my schooling. Lots of people who end up with loans fall into that category. I know at some schools with large endowments, what the student pays for tuition is based on household income. So if under $80K is free, then the next tier up would be some small amount, and the next tier up a bit more, and so on. I still think that, though, that a public tertiary education should be free or low cost for anyone who wants it. We made a decision as a country over 100 years ago to make high school free because we needed an educated workforce for middle class jobs. Today's middle class jobs require some level of training beyond high school, whether that's a degree or training in the trades. We should invest in our kids and our country that way. Other countries do. We're falling behind. I will also share this possibly unpopular opinion - I don't think federally subsidized grants or loans should be allowed to apply to private colleges. In the same way that I don't think vouchers should be allowed for private and/or religious schools, I don't think tax money should be subsidizing private/religious colleges. |
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Aug 9, 2024 21:29:11 GMT
I wonder how much the students families who make 80-90k pay? Valid. I was one of those kids whose parents made a bit too much to qualify for Pell grants but not enough to actually pay for my schooling. Lots of people who end up with loans fall into that category. I know at some schools with large endowments, what the student pays for tuition is based on household income. So if under $80K is free, then the next tier up would be some small amount, and the next tier up a bit more, and so on. I still think that, though, that a public tertiary education should be free or low cost for anyone who wants it. We made a decision as a country over 100 years ago to make high school free because we needed an educated workforce for middle class jobs. Today's middle class jobs require some level of training beyond high school, whether that's a degree or training in the trades. We should invest in our kids and our country that way. Other countries do. We're falling behind. I will also share this possibly unpopular opinion - I don't think federally subsidized grants or loans should be allowed to apply to private colleges. In the same way that I don't think vouchers should be allowed for private and/or religious schools, I don't think tax money should be subsidizing private/religious colleges. We completely agree on this. |
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ellen
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by ellen on Aug 9, 2024 21:29:13 GMT
Since we are now talking about student loans I’ll tell you about another thing that happened during MN’s last budget session. Students whose families make less than $80k per year can attend our state schools tuition free. It’s good for students and the schools. It was not incredibly expensive to do either considering that students still fill out the FAFSA forms. I do some subbing at the high school level and when I talked to high school kids several of them told me that they were choosing to attend schools where they could go tuition free. Many students are using the program to attend trade schools - I’ve done some subbing in shop classes. I am currently paying for college for my own kid and I’m not mad about it. Tim Walz was able to do this with a one seat majority in the legislature. He gets things done and doesn’t worry too much about his next election. There has been a lot of complaining about us being socialist, but as people benefit from these things they start to understand and like it. North Star Promise Scholarship ProgramI wonder how much the students families who make 80-90k pay? I wonder how someone can feel resentful toward a low income young woman whose dad died? |
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Aug 9, 2024 21:42:53 GMT
I wonder how much the students families who make 80-90k pay? I wonder how someone can feel resentful toward a low income young woman whose dad died? Wow. That's what you got out of it? And it was her mom- but hey. I do find it interesting you assume her dad died because I said the other parent was low income. I don't feel resentful towards her, at all. Quite the opposite, actually. I feel as if the system is set up to squeeze anyone that could possibly be considered middle income. There are safeguards for low income, and wealthy people have ways of safeguarding the their wealth. I think everyone (including my kids) should be able to participate in what I (and now they too) pay to fund. I'm a pretty well over my tax dollars being yanked from my check but then being stopped at the door, and not allowed to sit at the table. |
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Post by Merge on Aug 9, 2024 21:47:55 GMT
I wonder how someone can feel resentful toward a low income young woman whose dad died? Wow. That's what you got out of it? And it was her mom- but hey. I do find it interesting you assume her dad died because I said the other parent was low income. I don't feel resentful towards her, at all. Quite the opposite, actually. I feel as if the system is set up to squeeze anyone that could possibly be considered middle income. There are safeguards for low income, and wealthy people have ways of safeguarding the their wealth. I think everyone (including my kids) should be able to participate in what I (and now they too) pay to fund. I'm a pretty well over my tax dollars being yanked from my check but then being stopped at the door, and not allowed to sit at the table. Yes. But I would posit that would should be more concerned about the wealthy being *too* able to safeguard what they have than the poor getting some crumbs from the table. Time to tax the rich and reduce the burden on the middle class. |
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Tim Walz
Aug 9, 2024 21:55:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by revirdsuba99 on Aug 9, 2024 21:55:23 GMT
Project 2025 will take everything away.. any help for the poor/low income will be gone. Public schools included. The have nots will be our day laborers regardless of nationality, race or color popping out babies for the next work crew.
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Aug 9, 2024 21:56:20 GMT
Wow. That's what you got out of it? And it was her mom- but hey. I do find it interesting you assume her dad died because I said the other parent was low income. I don't feel resentful towards her, at all. Quite the opposite, actually. I feel as if the system is set up to squeeze anyone that could possibly be considered middle income. There are safeguards for low income, and wealthy people have ways of safeguarding the their wealth. I think everyone (including my kids) should be able to participate in what I (and now they too) pay to fund. I'm a pretty well over my tax dollars being yanked from my check but then being stopped at the door, and not allowed to sit at the table. Yes. But I would posit that would should be more concerned about the wealthy being *too* able to safeguard what they have than the poor getting some crumbs from the table. Time to tax the rich and reduce the burden on the middle class. Ok. I'm cool with that. But can we agree that that should actually reduce the burden on those that are actually working and contributing? Please note, lest I be called out... there are many many people that DREAM of "middle class" that work their asses off and don't want a handout. They get left out the most. The people making the $80k when the help is given to the ones making $79,999. The ones struggling at $85k that are expected to come out of pocket tends of thousands of dollars that others don't have to pay. They need to be able to sit at the table too. Policy in my adult lifetime has never given anything back to "the middle class" (however we define that.) They may say they will, but they never do. Even when they claim to have done so. That's not going to change. I know different areas of the country are different. But good luck living where I live on $85k, saving a pittance for retirement, paying for healthcare that god forbid you may have to use, and keep a roof over your head. Good luck paying for your own student loans or saving for your kid(s.) Hell, child care alone is more than most people's mortgages in 85% of the country. |
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Post by Merge on Aug 9, 2024 22:02:35 GMT
Yes. But I would posit that would should be more concerned about the wealthy being *too* able to safeguard what they have than the poor getting some crumbs from the table. Time to tax the rich and reduce the burden on the middle class. Ok. I'm cool with that. But can we agree that that should actually reduce the burden on those that are actually working and contributing? Please note, lest I be called out... there are many many people that DREAM of "middle class" that work their asses off and don't want a handout. They get left out the most. The people making the $80k when the help is given to the ones making $79,999. The ones struggling at $85k that are expected to come out of pocket tends of thousands of dollars that others don't have to pay. They need to be able to sit at the table too. Policy in my adult lifetime has never given anything back to "the middle class" (however we define that.) They may say they will, but they never do. Even when they claim to have done so. That's not going to change. I know different areas of the country are different. But good luck living where I live on $85k, saving a pittance for retirement, paying for healthcare that god forbid you may have to use, and keep a roof over your head. Good luck paying for your own student loans or saving for your kid(s.) Hell, child care alone is more than most people's mortgages in 85% of the country. Oh for sure. We've all been paying for the misguided "trickle down" theory of tax cuts for the rich in the Reagan era for 40 years. The working poor, the middle class ... and we have to recognize that different numbers define those groups in different areas. And to your point - neither party has been willing to meaningfully move the needle on that. Rs don't want to piss off their donors and Ds are terrified of being called communists. $85K would be a poor living for a family in my city, too, and we're supposedly a lower-cost city. It would be quite good for a young person starting out. But not a family. (New teachers in my district start at about $65K, and my daughter working in HR makes about that much - though unlike a teacher, she can expect her income to grow significantly over time.) What chaps my hide is that somehow we've got the working poor defending and voting for the people who want to perpetuate tax cuts for the rich. Make that make sense. It just doesn't. And they say people who actually want to work toward economic justice are "communists" and "too progressive" or "the radical left." When people like Tim Walz (to bring this back to the point of the thread) give kids free lunch to level the playing field a TINY bit, people lose their minds. SMDH. |
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ellen
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by ellen on Aug 9, 2024 22:34:49 GMT
I wonder how someone can feel resentful toward a low income young woman whose dad died? Wow. That's what you got out of it? And it was her mom- but hey. I do find it interesting you assume her dad died because I said the other parent was low income. I don't feel resentful towards her, at all. Quite the opposite, actually. I feel as if the system is set up to squeeze anyone that could possibly be considered middle income. There are safeguards for low income, and wealthy people have ways of safeguarding the their wealth. I think everyone (including my kids) should be able to participate in what I (and now they too) pay to fund. I'm a pretty well over my tax dollars being yanked from my check but then being stopped at the door, and not allowed to sit at the table. I read without quoting it to look back on and got the parenting wrong. No assumption on my part, just a mistake. I did assume your question was a rhetorical one. It feels a bit like we shouldn’t do anything unless we do it for everyone. My own kids got a lot of benefits from having a stable family with a reliable income. A good share of the reason for that is because I got Pell grants when I was in college. My education set me up to pay for my kids. My kids have received rude comments from their peers about their parents paying for their school suggesting they are spoiled or have it too easy. I am hopeful that if Harris and Walz get into office that we can start working toward things that meet the needs of middle class people. I’m glad to hear them talking about strengthening unions. Free school meals allow all families to keep more of their money. |
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Gennifer
Drama Llama
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Post by Gennifer on Aug 9, 2024 23:59:40 GMT
I graduated HS with all A's and didn't even know that college loans were a thing. My parents had no money for me to go to school. They were doing well to keep the lights and water on. And even though I had straight A's for as long as I can remember (definitely all of HS and MS) and cut school more than I went, not one teacher or guidance counselor ever checked into what was going on in my world, or talked about college. I couldn't afford to take the SAT when everyone else did, and I just didn't ask. Bottom line, I fell, hard, through the cracks. We have very similar stories. The difference is, I want others to be able to avoid the same hurdles, because when our future generations succeed we, society as a whole, will reap the benefits. Your attitude seems more like “I didn’t get help so no one else should, either.” |
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paget
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,116
Jun 25, 2014 21:16:39 GMT
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Tim Walz
Aug 10, 2024 1:08:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by paget on Aug 10, 2024 1:08:48 GMT
This is also how it works in our state for electricians- you wouldn’t have to go to school. You work under the licensed electrician and when you have enough hours you are eligible to take the exam. Here, to be an electrician, it is 600 hours of board approved education and not less than 8000 clock hours over not less than 4 years with a licensed journeyman. Kind of crazy that there is such a difference. www.mass.gov/how-to/apply-for-an-individual-electrical-or-systems-license#:~:text=Applicants%20must%20have%20600%20hours,of%20a%20Massachusetts%20licensed%20Journeyman. I'm in a democrat run state, are you? Yes. Very blue |
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Post by Merge on Aug 10, 2024 1:18:46 GMT
What I take away from this thread after a few drinks is that those of us who disagree on some things agree on many others, and that we all want a better future for our kids and grandkids. And that’s something to build on.
Cheers.
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