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Post by Merge on Nov 9, 2024 11:45:09 GMT
The vast majority of people here illegally work and pay taxes, knowing they will never reap the benefits of the programs their taxes fund. They contribute to our economies and make things better by doing jobs that need to be done (and that aren’t being done by Americans). Study after study has validated the positive net effect these immigrants have on our economy. Since I know that they’re not, with limited exceptions, consuming resources needed by others, I’m fine with them being here. What we should be doing is broadening our guest worker program to accommodate those doing necessary jobs, so they don’t have to live in fear of being deported because too many people watched right wing media and believed their lies. And please understand that the rich right have made you think that poor people are taking what is yours. While the same rich right wingers are laughing as they write themselves ever larger tax cuts and set up a system designed to benefit them and not you. If you’re really concerned about services for the American poor, stop voting Elon Musk another tax break. Hmmmm…I think that “vast majority” is a bit of a stretch. I’m sure there are a lot who do work and pay taxes, but I’m going to guess though that the “vast majority” of the ones that have come over since 2021 are not part of that group. And I think that billions in subsidies to house, feed, clothe, school and medicate should be spent on American citizens first. What’s your evidence that the “vast majority” are not working and contributing? Keep in mind that the studies that show the net positive effect undocumented immigrants have on our economy take any use of tax-paid benefits into account. |
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Post by cindosha on Nov 9, 2024 11:54:21 GMT
The vast majority of people here illegally work and pay taxes, knowing they will never reap the benefits of the programs their taxes fund. They contribute to our economies and make things better by doing jobs that need to be done (and that aren’t being done by Americans). Study after study has validated the positive net effect these immigrants have on our economy. Since I know that they’re not, with limited exceptions, consuming resources needed by others, I’m fine with them being here. What we should be doing is broadening our guest worker program to accommodate those doing necessary jobs, so they don’t have to live in fear of being deported because too many people watched right wing media and believed their lies. And please understand that the rich right have made you think that poor people are taking what is yours. While the same rich right wingers are laughing as they write themselves ever larger tax cuts and set up a system designed to benefit them and not you. If you’re really concerned about services for the American poor, stop voting Elon Musk another tax break. Hmmmm…I think that “vast majority” is a bit of a stretch. I’m sure there are a lot who do work and pay taxes, but I’m going to guess though that the “vast majority” of the ones that have come over since 2021 are not part of that group. And I think that billions in subsidies to house, feed, clothe, school and medicate should be spent on American citizens first. Elon paid $11 billion in taxes in 2021. Couldn’t find numbers for 2022 and 2023 though. |
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Post by cindosha on Nov 9, 2024 11:55:54 GMT
Hmmmm…I think that “vast majority” is a bit of a stretch. I’m sure there are a lot who do work and pay taxes, but I’m going to guess though that the “vast majority” of the ones that have come over since 2021 are not part of that group. And I think that billions in subsidies to house, feed, clothe, school and medicate should be spent on American citizens first. What’s your evidence that the “vast majority” are not working and contributing? Keep in mind that the studies that show the net positive effect undocumented immigrants have on our economy take any use of tax-paid benefits into account. Where is your evidence that they are? “Vast majority” is a pretty subjective term. |
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Post by sunshine on Nov 9, 2024 11:57:57 GMT
These people never should’ve been allowed to wander into our country undocumented, unvetted, and illegally in the first place. There should’ve been better border security. PERIOD. And under President Trump, there will be. We would have had better border security months ago if Trump hadn't squashed the border bill by telling his caucus not to vote for it. He did this so he could run on immigration reform. He clearly doesn't care about this issue. He uses it was a way to drum up support. He's a salesman and that's his pitch. The number of illegal immigrants is often exaggerated by right wing media since they never seem to point out that many people are turned back or that the number of encounters can be multiple encounters with the same person. There are of course some who get through without being caught. It's a problem but not nearly the numbers Trump claims. You mean the border bill that didn’t stand a chance because of 6 NO votes from the left? Your own party killed that bill, unless you’re suggesting the left took orders from trump? 🤣 |
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Post by cindosha on Nov 9, 2024 12:00:20 GMT
. I could say the same, but I haven’t. And? Don’t care. That’s my point. |
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Post by Merge on Nov 9, 2024 13:24:47 GMT
What’s your evidence that the “vast majority” are not working and contributing? Keep in mind that the studies that show the net positive effect undocumented immigrants have on our economy take any use of tax-paid benefits into account. Where is your evidence that they are? “Vast majority” is a pretty subjective term. The evidence is in the fact that they have a net positive effect on our economy. www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/news/new-data-immigrants-driving-prosperity-in-united-states-2022 |
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Post by Merge on Nov 9, 2024 13:25:51 GMT
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Post by Merge on Nov 9, 2024 13:26:55 GMT
If you think you have some sort of moral superiority because you can’t accurately tag us as enjoyers of fascism … well, that’s stupid. |
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Post by epeanymous on Nov 9, 2024 14:01:38 GMT
Hey friends—a point I want to make is that none of us owes anyone our interaction and engagement. When someone enters your space and tries to argue with you, particularly when you know they are spreading misinformation, you don’t need to engage with them. You won’t persuade them, but you are giving them the back and forth they crave, and you should keep in mind that you already know that inflicting harm isn’t a bug but a feature.
Don’t get me wrong. It is worth discussing things with people who are acting in good faith and who live in a reality-based world, even if you and they disagree. 100%. But I don’t know that this is the position in which we always find ourselves.
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Post by micheley on Nov 9, 2024 15:37:22 GMT
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
On a related note, do you have to be on an actual computer to block people? I keep getting error messages on my iPhone.
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Post by cindosha on Nov 9, 2024 15:45:57 GMT
$11 billion isn’t enough for you? |
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Post by cindosha on Nov 9, 2024 15:46:40 GMT
If you think you have some sort of moral superiority because you can’t accurately tag us as enjoyers of fascism … well, that’s stupid. Fascism as a pretty harsh word. |
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Post by Merge on Nov 9, 2024 16:19:20 GMT
$11 billion isn’t enough for you? I'm going to do you the favor of assuming you understand how percentages work vs. raw numbers. |
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Post by Merge on Nov 9, 2024 16:19:57 GMT
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scrappinmama
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,120
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Nov 9, 2024 17:33:49 GMT
If you care about an immigrant, tread carefully at letting the world know that you know where they are. Be the person who would have protected Anne Frank. And hell yes he is going to deport them. They have repeatedly said it. And they also said they want to deport some naturalized citizens. They just haven't said why they are targeting naturalized citizens. I'm assuming they will look at criminal records, or if they are considered "enemy of the US". I just don't know. It is extremely rare to have your citizenship taken away, but it can happen. And the ACLU will be watching this closely. Stephen Miller, one of Trump's most trusted and racist advisors. I'm not making this up. He has said it. I believe someone already shared his tweet where he says this is part of the plan. And like I said, the ACLU is prepared. |
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,429 
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Post by huskergal on Nov 9, 2024 17:44:49 GMT
Actually I wouldn’t be able to respond if I couldn’t read. I just posted that it is the 20 million people let over the border in the last four years that are criminals, murderers, and rapists that he’s going to be concentrating on. Those are the ones that are gonna be deported. But please, continue on with your semantics. Where do you get your information? Do you have actual facts to back up these claims. I don't think there are 20 million criminals, murderers and rapists here. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Nov 9, 2024 17:46:16 GMT
Actually I wouldn’t be able to respond if I couldn’t read. I just posted that it is the 20 million people let over the border in the last four years that are criminals, murderers, and rapists that he’s going to be concentrating on. Those are the ones that are gonna be deported. But please, continue on with your semantics. Where do you get your information? Do you have actual facts to back up these claims. I don't think there are 20 million criminals, murderers and rapists here. And if we knew they were criminals they would have already been arrested and wouldn’t be deported until after their sentence was up. |
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scrappinmama
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,120
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Nov 9, 2024 17:47:00 GMT
Ok I'm all caught up. It would be hilarious to read how ignorant and brainwashed Trumpers are if it didn't mean so many people are going to be hurt by it all. I think it was Merge that said too bad it isn't the people who voted for him that are the ones who are hurt the most by his administration.
I will not argue with a Trumper. But I will remind them that they are racist, homophobic, misogynists every damn chance I get. They should be shunned for their hatefulness.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,429
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Post by huskergal on Nov 9, 2024 17:48:35 GMT
There were people that came here illegally when Trump was president as well. Don’t deluge yourself into believing that the border was “closed” then “wide open.” I hold the republicans responsible just as much as democrats. Constantly saying that the border was wide open gave people the idea that it is, in fact, wide open (which it wasn’t). Anyone who said that likely led to people getting hurt and dying because you wanted to make a political point. Also, Biden asked for more funding for border agents and faster processing of asylum claims. That was denied. But now we have a blank check for Trump to deport anyone Willy Nilly? Give me a break. As I said in another thread (or maybe this one, I don’t know), we can’t have reasonable discussions because it always has to be us vs them. A lot more would get solved if the rhetoric on the right was toned down. 10’s of millions let in over the last 4 years. TENS OF MILLIONS. That is a wide open border. The rhetoric on the left isn’t without blame. eta: I’m pretty sure tens of millions weren’t let in during the last admin. Certainly not near the numbers under this one. I can guarantee you that the deportation process won’t be done “Willy nilly”. That sounds ridiculous. My cousin lives 5 miles from the Mexican border. There is a crossing there. There are not hordes of people coming across the bridge. We are not letting illegal immigrants into this country. The border is not open. Criminals are coming in through tunnels or crossing somewhere else. They are not coming in through our border stops. |
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,429
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Post by huskergal on Nov 9, 2024 17:52:56 GMT
I hope you enjoy paying $5 for a tomato - or simply not being able to buy a tomato - when the farms lose most of their workers. We grow our own food. I have over 800 jars of food I’ve canned in the last couple of years in my root cellar as of now. I’m not worried. But anyway, I’m sure there are plenty of documented/legal farm workers. Nice that you are only looking out for yourself. You don't care about if anyone else can afford food or have access. |
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,429
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Post by huskergal on Nov 9, 2024 17:55:08 GMT
I see you skipped over the part where you lied. Unsurprising. I am genuinely curious though, are you really ok with 11+ million illegals consuming the resources (YOUR taxpaid dollars) of goods and services that should be going to aging, poor, veteran Americans first instead??? I’m not. I think Americans come first and foremost. Please provide evidence of all the goods and services that 11 + illegals are consuming. Millions of them are working and putting money back into the economy. If they are illegal, how are they getting goods and services? |
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,429
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Post by huskergal on Nov 9, 2024 17:59:38 GMT
The vast majority of people here illegally work and pay taxes, knowing they will never reap the benefits of the programs their taxes fund. They contribute to our economies and make things better by doing jobs that need to be done (and that aren’t being done by Americans). Study after study has validated the positive net effect these immigrants have on our economy. Since I know that they’re not, with limited exceptions, consuming resources needed by others, I’m fine with them being here. What we should be doing is broadening our guest worker program to accommodate those doing necessary jobs, so they don’t have to live in fear of being deported because too many people watched right wing media and believed their lies. And please understand that the rich right have made you think that poor people are taking what is yours. While the same rich right wingers are laughing as they write themselves ever larger tax cuts and set up a system designed to benefit them and not you. If you’re really concerned about services for the American poor, stop voting Elon Musk another tax break. Hmmmm…I think that “vast majority” is a bit of a stretch. I’m sure there are a lot who do work and pay taxes, but I’m going to guess though that the “vast majority” of the ones that have come over since 2021 are not part of that group. And I think that billions in subsidies to house, feed, clothe, school and medicate should be spent on American citizens first. Once again, explain how they are getting these services? |
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Nov 9, 2024 18:18:49 GMT
I've reviewed I-9's for alot of years and I agree, I am not well versed in ferreting out which documents are fake. I can't say I've never been presented with any, because I don't know... but I've definitely never identified one as fake. Federal law considers it illegal- punishable by fines or prison for non-compliance or making false statements, including using false documents.... Would that not make the person a criminal? In addition to breaking the law by being here illegally to begin with? Either way, criminals can go buh bye. I hope you enjoy paying $5 for a tomato - or simply not being able to buy a tomato - when the farms lose most of their workers. Already paying $3.99 a pound… and most of my produce (and meat) is purchased locally at local family farms… Agriculture prices in the mass market are super opaque in how the pricing works. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Nov 9, 2024 19:04:01 GMT
cindosha can you clarify your definition of being "Let in"? I am not sure I am on the same page. To me, that means that someone allowed them to come in--for example, those who claimed asylum and are waiting for trial. But it seems to me that you are using that term to refer to people who came in illegally--which to me would mean through a tunnel or other way that we would not know about, regardless of who is in office. Or people, like Elon Musk and others, who came here legally but overstayed their Visa and are now here illegally. I would also know what you mean by "open border." To me, that means that anyone can come in and there are no checkpoints, no border agents, no need to claim asylum, no guardrails at all. That is what I think people in South America hear when they hear Republicans say there is an "open border." As for people who are here illegally--I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I don't think it is ok. But I also feel that it is clear we need more workers in the country and we should expand our work visa program. I also think that if someone has been here for years and is being a productive member of society, there should be some way for them to become legal. I also recognize that there are not the same standards and means of coming here legally among people from all countries. I recently saw an interview with a Congressman who said that his wife went through the legal route to immigrate including "paying the money and spending the time waiting." Not all people have the luxury of being able to do either of those things because of their living situation, or because those aren't options due to the country they are living in. There isn't equal access across the board. There are at least two parts to this situation--how to deal with people who are already here and how to deal with people who will come in the future.
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Post by Merge on Nov 9, 2024 19:05:58 GMT
I hope you enjoy paying $5 for a tomato - or simply not being able to buy a tomato - when the farms lose most of their workers. Already paying $3.99 a pound… and most of my produce (and meat) is purchased locally at local family farms… Agriculture prices in the mass market are super opaque in how the pricing works. I think we can agree that deporting a big chunk of the people willing to do agricultural labor is going to raise prices further, both for the things you can't get locally and for all the people who have to rely on grocery stores for their food. |
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Post by melanell on Nov 9, 2024 19:15:44 GMT
I'll say "not sure", because my FIL is no longer living, but his father was an illegal immigrant, so I'm glad he's not here to hear the things people would have to say about him and his status in the US these days. And because I don't officially know if other people I know are here legally or not.
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Post by librarylady on Nov 9, 2024 21:12:40 GMT
I suggest Peas view the movie A Day Without a Mexican. (released in 2004) www.imdb.com/title/tt0377744/It shows how many things in the US economy depend upon immigrant labor and services. |
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Post by cindosha on Nov 10, 2024 0:39:12 GMT
cindosha can you clarify your definition of being "Let in"? I am not sure I am on the same page. To me, that means that someone allowed them to come in--for example, those who claimed asylum and are waiting for trial. But it seems to me that you are using that term to refer to people who came in illegally--which to me would mean through a tunnel or other way that we would not know about, regardless of who is in office. Or people, like Elon Musk and others, who came here legally but overstayed their Visa and are now here illegally. I would also know what you mean by "open border." To me, that means that anyone can come in and there are no checkpoints, no border agents, no need to claim asylum, no guardrails at all. That is what I think people in South America hear when they hear Republicans say there is an "open border." As for people who are here illegally--I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I don't think it is ok. But I also feel that it is clear we need more workers in the country and we should expand our work visa program. I also think that if someone has been here for years and is being a productive member of society, there should be some way for them to become legal. I also recognize that there are not the same standards and means of coming here legally among people from all countries. I recently saw an interview with a Congressman who said that his wife went through the legal route to immigrate including "paying the money and spending the time waiting." Not all people have the luxury of being able to do either of those things because of their living situation, or because those aren't options due to the country they are living in. There isn't equal access across the board. There are at least two parts to this situation--how to deal with people who are already here and how to deal with people who will come in the future. I mean the ones that the biden admin allowed to come over the border unvetted and/or unaccounted for. But I think you know exactly what I was referring to. I believe you’re smarter than that. |
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Post by aj2hall on Nov 11, 2024 22:54:43 GMT
Hope those of you that wanted a crackdown on immigration are ready to pay more in grocery prices. Be prepared for higher housing costs, too. I'm not sure why Trump voters can't connect the dots but economists have been warning this would happen for months. www.nytimes.com/2024/11/11/opinion/trump-deportation-inflation-grocery-bills.htmlFor the past few years, over and over, voters have told pollsters and pundits that they’re hopping mad about inflation. Well, we just elected a president who, if he follows through on two of his central campaign promises — across-the-board tariffs and mass deportation of undocumented immigrants — will probably cause soaring inflation.
However, with the economy starting from, essentially, full employment in his second term, Trump, with mass deportations, would degrade productive capacity, balloon deficits and — yes — bring inflation roaring back, keeping a grim pledge on punitive immigration policy while breaking one on providing relief to American consumers.
Here’s what I mean: If you’re upset about grocery prices now, see what happens if Trump goes after a huge part of the agricultural work force; immigrants are around three-quarters of agricultural workers — and roughly half of them are undocumented. (And do you really doubt that many workers legally here will be caught up in Trump’s threatened dragnets?) Undocumented immigrants also play a large role in food processing. For example, they account for an estimated 30 to 50 percent of workers in meatpacking.
If these workers are deported, the food industry will probably have great difficulty replacing them. Even in the best case, the industry will have to offer much higher wages — and, of course, these higher wages will be passed on in higher prices.
And when it comes to the downstream economic effects of deportations, it’s not just about grocery prices; it’s also about the cost of housing. The answer to that problem is to build more housing units. But undocumented immigrants are more than a fifth of the construction work force, so deportations would severely hamper efforts to increase the housing supply. (And no, contrary to what JD Vance said, immigration hasn’t driven the recent spike in housing costs.)
Could we easily make up for the loss of these workers by replacing them with native-born workers? No. Employment among native-born adults in their prime working years is higher than it was at any point during Trump’s first term. There just isn’t a large pool of idle but employable native-born Americans to put to work.
What will Trump do if inflation rises? Bear in mind that his campaign was replete with false claims — about immigration, jobs, inflation, crime and more. And one of his go-to tactics for dismissing data that shows his claims are false is to insist that the data is fake.
And let’s not lose sight of the human component. The prospect of millions of people who’ve come to America to make a better life for themselves being rounded up and shipped out is ghastly. To borrow a phrase, the cruelty of Trump’s proposed deportations is part of the point. But to the extent that Trump has sold the idea that kicking out undocumented immigrants would buoy the economic prospects of working- and middle-class Americans, this is yet another case where his rhetoric and his math don’t add up.
Inflation is by no means my biggest concern right now. It’s almost trivial compared with the threat that Trump poses — has posed — to our democracy. But it will matter a lot to many Americans, including many who voted for him, and the nation’s future will depend greatly on how they react if they come to find that they bought into a false belief in Trump’s ability to manage the economy. |
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jayfab
Drama Llama
procastinating
Posts: 5,615
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Post by jayfab on Nov 11, 2024 23:31:27 GMT
He’s a radical has-been who hasn’t been in power since 2021. The RADICAL now has a position in rumps administration. link |
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