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Post by I-95 on Jul 18, 2014 21:58:28 GMT
Yes, we can all see that. How do you propose that should happen? It's one thing to mouth platitudes, but in very specific terms, how do you think the killing should be stopped? The fact is the Palestinians are not going to stop. They have said that over and over and over again. So what should Israel do? Should they ignore the rockets that endanger the citizens of Israel? Should they stand back and do nothing when a group of heavily armed Palestinians enters Israel via underground tunnels? The Palestinians who did that were not here to go shopping, they were here to attack the Kibbutz they popped up next to. Did the residents of that Kibbutz do anything to warrant being attacked? Did they shoot rockets at Gaza? No, they didn't, but if the terrorists hadn't been intercepted a lot of innocent Israelis would have died. What should we do about things like that?
Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of Israeli politicians I don't agree with. There are definitely extremist Israeli hate groups too, but as a whole your average Israeli would much prefer to never have their children go straight from High School into the army. They would rather never see a Palestinian child die for no good reason. They would rather not have to have a bombproof room in their homes and they would not like to be killed by rockets fired from Gaza. Why do people think the Palestinians are so innocent in all of this? Why do articles like the ones you linked refer to Israel as bombing the heck out of Gaza, but never say a word about the THOUSANDS of rockets that have been launched against the innocent citizens of Israel? Why should Israel have to justify her every DEFENSIVE act and Hamas never have to account for their actions? And then folks ask why Israelis start copping an attitude....hear this clearly....I am thrilled beyond belief that Israel has built the Iron Dome to protect my American ass. I am happy to tell you that my home has a bombproof room to protect me from rocket fire. I am also tired of people who have never set foot in the State of Israel telling me that Israel is wrong to defend itself. Israel NEVER starts this shit, but it sure takes a lot of BS from people who have no f'ing clue what it's like to live here. Y'all can sit in your nice safe countries and pontificate about how Israel should behave, but why don't you come here sometime and wonder if the next city bus you get on is going to be bombed, or if your kids are going to be murdered, or have your nerves jangled by the sound of incoming rocket sirens, or rockets exploding over your head, or listen to the constant sound of helicopters patrolling the coast. For the most part we carry on with our daily lives, joke about how fast we can get to a bomb shelter, but the constant reality of war has a profound psychological effect on civilians. To hear outsiders say 'well, the killing has got to stop'.... You bet Tonto, tell us how we make that happen because there is no useful information in platitudes.
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tduby1
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,979
Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
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Post by tduby1 on Jul 18, 2014 22:08:10 GMT
I think that it would be a fine idea to begin a different thread and ask your questions why the Jews are so hated. While I-95 is having rockets exploding over her head, I think it's beyond rude to ask that on this thread. While I agree with you on this thread, I do think it is fair to point out that Dani Mani actually was the one to start *this* thread to ask her questions.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 18, 2014 22:09:40 GMT
Considering that Europe has been anti-semetic and anti-Jew for over a millenia, it's not surprising that they don't hold a positive view of Israel.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 18, 2014 22:22:10 GMT
(The author of the editorial linked on the previous page who wants to burn her Israeli passport.)
I just shake my head over all these articles that cite the lopsided death toll, somehow implying that there aren't enough dead Israeli's. Yes, that is the implication because they sure aren't critical of Hamas. How many dead Israeli's, I wonder, would make these people happy?
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 18, 2014 22:22:54 GMT
I think that it would be a fine idea to begin a different thread and ask your questions why the Jews are so hated. While I-95 is having rockets exploding over her head, I think it's beyond rude to ask that on this thread. While I agree with you on this thread, I do think it is fair to point out that Dani Mani actually was the one to start *this* thread to ask her questions. I long ago lost track who started the thread. It's taken me days to read. Whether she started it or not, I still think it's appropriate to devote that question to its own thread.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 18, 2014 22:24:29 GMT
(The author of the editorial linked on the previous page who wants to burn her Israeli passport.) I just shake my head over all these articles that cite the lopsided death toll, somehow implying that there aren't enough dead Israeli's. Yes, that is the implication because they sure aren't critical of Hamas. How many dead Israeli's, I wonder, would make these people happy? How many Israelis are there? Take that number and double it.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 7, 2024 0:20:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 23:58:33 GMT
While I agree with you on this thread, I do think it is fair to point out that Dani Mani actually was the one to start *this* thread to ask her questions. I long ago lost track who started the thread. It's taken me days to read. Whether she started it or not, I still think it's appropriate to devote that question to its own thread. I completely disagree. Dani said in her OP that she was torn. There's nothing wrong with her asking questions-that's exactly why she started the thread; she had a question. I95 has been gracious enough to answer, and provide valuable information. I don't think trying to stop her from asking questions is ok at all-maybe you're the one who needs to start a new thread, so that you can put your own qualifiers on what you deem are acceptable questions and what aren't.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 19, 2014 0:36:27 GMT
How long do you want this particular thread to be? It's already at 11 pages.
"The whole world hates Israel. Why do you think that is?" is a leading question from an anti-Israeli viewpoint. Kind of like the old "Have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of question. It's based on the premises that 1) the world hates Israel and 2) that this hatred is justified.
Obviously, I reacted to this differently than you did.
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Jul 19, 2014 0:58:22 GMT
This thread has been very interesting and informative. I have a better understanding of what this conflict is all about. Thanks ladies!
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Post by smokey2471 on Jul 19, 2014 1:10:02 GMT
"]The US has been a blessed country and one of the reasons has been the support of the Jews/Israel. that goes back to a promise/warning from God that those who bless Israel He will bless and those that curse Israel will be cursed.
Skypea what verse/verses is that? I've heard this all my live. My Grama (Methodist) used to say "The bible says God blesses the country that blesses the Jews" I never asked her what verse it was. I'm a chreaster, I only go to church on Christmas and Easter (most years) and so I haven't really heard it at church and my Grama has passed away:(
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 7, 2024 0:20:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 1:16:31 GMT
Genesis chapter 12
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Post by elaine on Jul 19, 2014 1:26:00 GMT
Considering that Europe has been anti-semetic and anti-Jew for over a millenia, it's not surprising that they don't hold a positive view of Israel. I was told by the company who placed me as an Au Pair in Paris in the 80s to not tell my French family that I was Jewish. The Parisians I met, for the most part, were anti-Jew. There was a bombing that happened in the Jewish Quarter of the city just before I was there. There has been plenty written about anti-semitism in Paris. If anyone is surprised that many French people would be against Israel, they don't know French history or culture - it has, IMO, more to do with longstanding hatred of Jews than anything Israel has or hasn't done.
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Post by jenjie on Jul 19, 2014 1:30:01 GMT
"]The US has been a blessed country and one of the reasons has been the support of the Jews/Israel. that goes back to a promise/warning from God that those who bless Israel He will bless and those that curse Israel will be cursed.
Skypea what verse/verses is that? I've heard this all my live. My Grama (Methodist) used to say "The bible says God blesses the country that blesses the Jews" I never asked her what verse it was. I'm a chreaster, I only go to church on Christmas and Easter (most years) and so I haven't really heard it at church and my Grama has passed away:( Genesis 12:1-3 KJV Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 7, 2024 0:20:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 1:51:30 GMT
How long do you want this particular thread to be? It's already at 11 pages."The whole world hates Israel. Why do you think that is?" is a leading question from an anti-Israeli viewpoint. Kind of like the old "Have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of question. It's based on the premises that 1) the world hates Israel and 2) that this hatred is justified. Obviously, I reacted to this differently than you did. You're just being argumentative here. Meh.
I didn't see Dani say what you've got in quote marks-is that a direct quote, or are you attemtping to paraphrase? I did see her ask why so many Western nations that we are normally aligned with didn't support Israel, and I saw thoughtful comments like Lauren's explanation that Europe has a very long history of anti-Semitism.
Obviously, since I still haven't seen these words from the poster you jumped all over. ETA: I just found this:
Ok, I can see how you might have gotten upset with this. I do still think you're ascribing motives that might not have been there. But I don't know that for sure, so I'll just shut up now.
I do appreciate the answers from people who didn't get all shrill and hostile when they answered people with a viewpoint that's different from their own.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 19, 2014 2:26:21 GMT
How long do you want this particular thread to be? It's already at 11 pages."The whole world hates Israel. Why do you think that is?" is a leading question from an anti-Israeli viewpoint. Kind of like the old "Have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of question. It's based on the premises that 1) the world hates Israel and 2) that this hatred is justified. Obviously, I reacted to this differently than you did. You're just being argumentative here. Meh.
I didn't see Dani say what you've got in quote marks-is that a direct quote, or are you attemtping to paraphrase? I did see her ask why so many Western nations that we are normally aligned with didn't support Israel, and I saw thoughtful comments like Lauren's explanation that Europe has a very long history of anti-Semitism.Obviously, since I still haven't seen these words from the poster you jumped all over.
I do appreciate the answers from people who didn't get all shrill and hostile when If I was being argumentative, I wouldn't have suggested Dani continue this in another thread. Long threads make boards wonky. It's not a direct quote, or I would have made it an obvious quote. Try rephrasing it..... "hmmmm.... why do you think countries all over the world hate black people?" Can you not see how that can be said in a smug kind of way, prompting people to trot out all the old cliches and prejudices. A passive-aggressive way of stirring the pot. That's the tone I read in the posts. Maybe you didn't, but you were at the bucket long enough to realize people don't interpret things the same way. My idea was that a new thread could allow wrong interpretations or impressions to be worked through while discussing an important topic and this thread could be left to discuss what is happening right now between Palestine and Israel. I-95 is right there and posting frequent updates on this thread.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 7, 2024 0:20:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 3:16:43 GMT
Yeah, I do. I went back and ETA'd, but it looks like you might have already been posting by the time I did. I'm not sure if I agree that was Dani's intent, though. 'Sallright-we don't have to agree on that, cause neither one of us knows for sure.
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Post by iteach3rdgrade on Jul 19, 2014 3:27:39 GMT
I have a really silly question. I don't read a lot of news or watch the news on TV and I've enjoyed reading this thread. I do read some junk news online which you can't fully believe, but there is always a hint of truth to what is happening. My question is: Why doesn't Israel defend themselves in the media? I only see propaganda that makes them look horrible/guilty. Am I just reading a biased junk news site?
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Post by jamieson on Jul 19, 2014 4:17:34 GMT
I don't believe that any person or group of people is more worthy than another, regardless or race, religion, etc.. That pretty much such sums up my feelings on this matter.
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chico
Junior Member
Posts: 77
Jun 28, 2014 4:03:03 GMT
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Post by chico on Jul 19, 2014 4:35:45 GMT
The US is not the only country that supports Israel, Canada does as well. Our Prime Minister, Steven Harper, made that very clear in his speech a couple days ago. I'd link it if I knew how
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Post by smokey2471 on Jul 19, 2014 5:40:29 GMT
Skypea what verse/verses is that? I've heard this all my live. My Grama (Methodist) used to say "The bible says God blesses the country that blesses the Jews" I never asked her what verse it was. I'm a chreaster, I only go to church on Christmas and Easter (most years) and so I haven't really heard it at church and my Grama has passed away:( Genesis 12:1-3 KJV Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Thank you .
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Post by smokey2471 on Jul 19, 2014 5:41:46 GMT
Skypea what verse/verses is that? I've heard this all my live. My Grama (Methodist) used to say "The bible says God blesses the country that blesses the Jews" I never asked her what verse it was. I'm a chreaster, I only go to church on Christmas and Easter (most years) and so I haven't really heard it at church and my Grama has passed away:( I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Genesis 12:3 Thank you. I could have googled but I figured someone would know off hand lazy
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 19, 2014 6:54:36 GMT
I have a really silly question. I don't read a lot of news or watch the news on TV and I've enjoyed reading this thread. I do read some junk news online which you can't fully believe, but there is always a hint of truth to what is happening. My question is: Why doesn't Israel defend themselves in the media? I only see propaganda that makes them look horrible/guilty. Am I just reading a biased junk news site? The sites that skew in favor of the Palestinians aren't going to print anything favorable to Israel. Unless they can pull quotes out of context without any surrounding background of why it was said and/or slap a negative headline on it -- just to skew it a little more. If you really want to know what is happening from their viewpoint there are several Israeli websites. I kind of mix it up when I'm looking, but I'm sure I-95 can point you to the more reliable and measured sources.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 19, 2014 7:27:26 GMT
The US is not the only country that supports Israel, Canada does as well. Our Prime Minister, Steven Harper, made that very clear in his speech a couple days ago. I'd link it if I knew how Thanks for pointing that out, Chico, I just looked it up. Oh, and to link, just follow the directions here. I don't want to step on your toes, so I won't post it, but I hope you quote parts of his speech in your message. It is well worth reading.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 19, 2014 12:30:02 GMT
Honestly? Israel doesn't feel obligated to defend and justify what they are doing. The are protecting their own citizens, why should they have to defend that to any sentient person?
It's funny you should ask that question though. Just last night I was saying to DH that Israel needs a better PR department to counteract some of the nonsense that is being spewed on hate sites. I had been reading a FB page of a Palestinian in Gaza. For the last two weeks he has been posting pictures of dead babies and children covered with blood...dozens and dozens of them. It is truly a visual horror story and i can see where people would get the idea that the Palestinians are beaten down by an aggressive neighbor. He posted a photo of a child drinking out of a public water faucet and commented on how Israel is denying water. The people commenting were saying 'Damn Israel' and other more ugly things. Israel is supplying Gaza with water, and plenty of it.
Then he posted a video of his home getting blown up....and I burst out laughing...not because his home was targeted, but because the video is shot from about 3 blocks away and for the first 60 seconds it does nothing but focus on house, then an incoming rocket blows it up. The comments were blasting Israel for their inhumanity and blaming them for the troubles. What NOBODY asked was 'HTH did you know to get 3 blocks away from your home, and have a hand held video camera trained on the house, 60 seconds before it blew up?' The answer to that is the inhuman Israelis called his stupid ass and told him to get out of the house because they were going to blow it up. He managed to grab his video camera, get 3 blocks away and film the rocket landing. He claims to be a simple civilian....yeah right, Israel only targets the homes of well known Hamas members...but do any of his International followers stop and ask questions? Nope, they just blame Israel.
One of the things Israel will NEVER do, is publish photos of dead babies, or even dead soldiers. It is those types of photos that get people all riled up and the Palestinians know it, so they post the most bloody, graphic photos they can find (and it doesn't bother them one bit if the photos are faked, or they are children who were killed in Syria, or whether they were staged with fake blood, they just want to influence people to hate Israel) I am grateful that Israel does not stoop to that level, but it doesn't help our world image.
As evidenced by some of the posts in this very thread, one can explain over and over how Israel conducts herself, and how the Palestinians conduct themselves. We can tell people until we're blue in the face that any Palestinian civilian casualty is a tragedy we wish didn't have to happen....and people will still say 'OK, fine, but why do you kill those poor people?' I will quote Benjamin Netanyahu again...
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.
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Post by monklady123 on Jul 19, 2014 12:45:59 GMT
As I was reading the last two replies from I-95 my "Red Alert Israel" app went off. (I downloaded it based on someone's comment on this thread, back a few pages.) "Moatza Ezorit Sdot Negev" is being hit at the moment. Not sure where that is, I need to get a map of Israel and look these places up. But every time my app alert goes off I use it as an opportunity to say a prayer for Israel, and for the ordinary Palestinian citizens who are caught in the web of Hamas' evilness. (and p.s., good to see "I-95" back. )
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Post by monklady123 on Jul 19, 2014 12:47:03 GMT
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. And this.... This is what I believe to be true. Totally.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 19, 2014 12:49:20 GMT
No offense Jamieson, but what's your point?. Israelis and Palestinians are at war, and they are at war because at least one side believes they are more worthy than the other, based on race and religion, and they're willing to kill for their ideals. Neither side could care less whether you think they are equals. Nations do not go to war because they agree with each other.
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lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29
Location: London Town
Jun 26, 2014 11:09:28 GMT
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Post by lynm on Jul 19, 2014 12:52:39 GMT
just replying to a couple of comments made regarding my post, still having trouble trying to quote..
The indiscriminate killing has to stop - I am talking about both sides here not just Israel - not a platitude at all, only by lobbying UK & US governments to stop supplying arms and marching against this senseless war is the only way we as people can make ourselves heard. ~Don't we all wish we had a magic solution.
Looking back to Dec 2008 - Operation Cast Lead, Israel’s repeated firing of white phosphorous shells over densely populated areas of Gaza during its military campaign was indiscriminate and is evidence of war crimes.” White phosphorous burns at up to 1500 degrees Fahrenheit. Imagine what happens when it comes into contact with the skin of a child. Human Rights Watch called for Israel’s “senior commanders” to be held accountable. But so far, there has been no such accountability.
Let us examine that argument. Did Hamas start “It”? When did “It” start?
How we understand history is shaped by when we start the clock. If we start the clock at a moment when rockets are fired from Gaza into Israel on a certain afternoon that, is one history. If we start the clock earlier that morning, when a 13-year-old Palestinian boy was shot dead by Israeli soldiers as he played soccer on a Gaza field, history starts to look a little different. If we go back further we see that since “Operation Cast Lead”, according to the Israeli human rights organization B’tselem, 271 Palestinians were killed by Israeli, bombs, rockets, drones and warplanes, and during the same period not a single Israeli was killed. A good case can be made that “It” started in 1967 with the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. History tells us that the invasion and occupation of a land and the subjugation of its people almost always creates a resistance. Ask the French or the Dutch or the Poles or the Czechs, the list goes on. This crisis in Gaza is a crisis rooted in occupation.
Even as bombs rained down on 1.6 million people in Gaza, the President of The United States of America reasserted his position that “Israel has the right to defend itself.”
We all know the reach and power of Israel’s military capability and the deadly effects of its actions. So what did President Obama mean? Did he mean that Israel has the right to indefinitely occupy the whole of the region, that Israel has the right to forcibly evict the populations of the occupied territories, house-by-house, village-by-village? Did he mean that in this special case Israel has the right to carry out campaigns of ethnic cleansing and apartheid, and that the U.S. will protect Israel’s right to do so? Did he mean that Israel has the right to build roads, in occupied territory, protected by razor wire and concrete walls and CCTV and machine guns to protect the residents of Jewish-only settlements? Did he mean that in discriminate and deadly bombing attacks, including the use of white phosphorous, on the civilian population of Gaza, by an overwhelmingly superior military force, is justified on the grounds of defence?
And yes, I can understand exactly how it feels to live under constant bombardment and I am not just sitting in my ivory tower spouting off - having been in Lebanon in July 2006 I know exactly how it feels to be under constant siege and bombardment from Israeli forces.
I have nothing else to say on the subject except this thread should not become another war, we should ALL work together to bring peace to the Middle East, however way we can.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 19, 2014 12:54:13 GMT
It's a region in the NW section of the Negev. It is made up of mostly Kibbutzim and Moshavim ( communal agricultural communities) It is a favorite for rocket attacks because the communities are religious and it's within hitting distance from Gaza.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 19, 2014 13:16:17 GMT
I don't want a war here either, but I was in a bomb shelter on the Israeli side of the border in 2006 as rockets were aimed directly at us from Lebanon. I sit here today as unprovoked, albeit sporadic, cross border mortars are fired.
I could argue point to point on your historical view of 'who started' it, but most of that has already been covered in the last 11 pages. As for this particular conflict, 'it' started with the kidnap and murder of the 3 West Bank teens. It was further inflamed by the murder of a Palestinian teen by Jewish extremists, and then all hell broke loose when Hamas fired a barrage of rockets into Israel. War is never a tea party. War brings out the best and the worst in people from both sides.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2007, long enough ago for the Palestinians to build themselves a peaceful home, but you know as well as I do that they have no interest in doing that. They will not be happy until Israel is destroyed, and that's not going to happen. Perhaps if the Palestinians had accepted the 2 State solution things would be different today, but they rejected it. Israel is not going away, this is a country that in the last 65 years has taken the rocks and sand they were given and built themselves a home. The land is never going to go back to where it was prior to 1948....or as the late mayor of Jerusalem, Teddy Kovacs, once said 'It's too late to discuss an abortion after the baby has been born' Israel was not only born, it has grown up. Unfortunately the Palestinians have not done the same.
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