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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 21, 2014 14:53:29 GMT
I have CNN on in the background and heard this morning that two of the Israeli soldiers that were killed were, in fact, US citizens.
I am sure that those of you who are more familiar with this that I am can explain it better, but from what I understand is if you are Jewish, but hold citizenship in another country, you can still serve in the IDF.
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Post by fiddlesticks on Jul 21, 2014 15:05:00 GMT
I know others have done this earlier in the thread, but I want to say a thank you for those that have taken the time to really explain the history of the region and the current situation so clearly. I have always felt uninformed and every time I would try to read something to inform myself, it felt like I was picking up a book in the middle of it.
This morning I read several articles covering the current events and actually could follow and understand and that wouldn't have happened without this thread.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 21, 2014 15:27:26 GMT
Are you freaking kidding me? That is a despicable--and bigoted--thing to say. Thanks Lucy. I read that when she wrote it and was, uncharacteristically for me, speechless! How can someone write those words and then say "we should ALL work together to bring peace to the Middle East, however way we can." That's as idiotic as folks in America saying 'I'm not prejudice, but I don't think black children should go to the same school my kids go to' That's when my head starts screaming 'Are you stoned, or just stupid?' You all should know that she didn't write that. She graced us with the words of Roger Waters of Pink Floyd speaking at the UN. Pink Floyd decided to boycott Israel and refuses to play concerts there. They also wrote letters to all their friends in the rock and roll community and told them they should do the same. I found out a little more about this bastion of human rights when I found the response from the ADL. I will quote part of it here: I remind you of the words of Stephen Harper, Canadian Prime Minister: Anti-Semitism is anti-semitism. Whether it is against people or a country.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,015
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jul 21, 2014 15:28:26 GMT
I am 100% in support of Israel's right to defend itself and 100% convinced of the insanity that is Hamas and even in that context, I can still be horrified/frustrated about the civilian death toll. Golda Meir said that For me the biggest part of the frustration is that Israel will do what it needs to do but it's not going to change anything. The people in Gaza aren't going to suddenly rise up and say "you know, you're right, Hamas IS insane, what the heck are we doing here?" In a triangular relationship, the only way to change the relationship is for someone to move. Thus far, the moves that Israel has made over the years haven't resulted in anything good. The Palestinian leadership is insane and depending on your perspective the people in Gaza either willingly elected them/are subjugated/are too uninformed or misled to know any better. And so it goes.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 22:41:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 15:44:32 GMT
I am 100% in support of Israel's right to defend itself and 100% convinced of the insanity that is Hamas and even in that context, I can still be horrified/frustrated about the civilian death toll. Golda Meir said that I don't disagree with your statement and agree that even the people of Israel are horrified and frustrated at the lives lost on the other side. But I hope that John Kerry, in his frustration, keeps talks and words directed to both sides even keeled...meaning not coming down harder on Israel because the loss of Israeli life has been much less than the loss of life in Gaza.
This could stop in 5 minutes if Hamas would just STOP.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,015
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jul 21, 2014 16:03:33 GMT
But they won't. Wishing it were so, knowing it should be so, won't make it be so. When someone like John Kerry seems to be coming down harder on Israel or expressing more frustration with Israel than Hamas, I always assume it's the same as in any relationship with unequal parties - I ask more of my husband than my children, I expect more from my older child than his young cousin, etc. Though I realize it isn't always fair or right, I expect the party who is capable of being more rational and mature to step into the void for the one who isn't. Though we all know that Israel has moved its leg of the triangle time and time again, we still get irrationally frustrated when they don't because there really aren't any other options for changing that triangle.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 21, 2014 16:26:44 GMT
You mean other than save and protect the lives of its citizens? In my book, that is good.
On the one hand you seem to be acknowledging that Israel has made moves time and again to negotiate and bring about peace, on the other hand you seem to be expecting them to do more.
I'm not being argumentative, I'm just confused - what exactly would you have them do?
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jul 21, 2014 16:39:39 GMT
I meant good in terms of changing the triangular relationship into something better.
And no, you misunderstand me. I have no idea what or even if Israel can or should do anything differently. I just know that they are the only party who can be reasoned with and thus they bear the brunt of everyone's frustrations and unreasonable expectations, no matter how unfair that is. Sure, we can and should hold Hamas to those same expectations but that's nothing but tilting at windmills and a waste of wishful thinking.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 21, 2014 17:15:12 GMT
At what point do we say to Hamas that the world has had enough? Why do we allow Hamas to continue this behavior? Behavior that results in the loss of lives on both sides? It's obvious which side is in the wrong, which side is squarely to blame. Instead of dealing with that side, we have unfair expectations and frustrations with Israel because they are in a position they cannot help. It's clear the Palestinians won't stop until Israel is wiped out. I cannot believe Israel continues to bend over backwards to help those who want them dead. And yet the world demands more of them. Short of ceasing to exist, there's nothing MORE Israel can do to solve anything. Sadly much of the world sides with Hamas- as seen throughout Europe with the anti-Israel demonstrations. Antisemitism in Europe just continues as if they learned NOTHING from the Holocaust. www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/israels-gaza-incursion-sets-off-protests-in-europe.html?_r=0
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 21, 2014 18:00:52 GMT
Short of ceasing to exist, there's nothing MORE Israel can do to solve anything. That's my take as well, hence my lack of comprehension at what Sarah*H is saying. I'm reading her words, but to me, that's what it all boils down to since the PA (Palestinian Authority) has never gone beyond "we want all or nothing and we will never recognize Israel's right to exist." I am, however, somewhat heartened by the attitude of the rest of the Arab world that I've been reading lately. I mean I don't study this topic full time, but this time I'm seeing a fairly new attitude from some parts, especially the Egyptians. When they actually acknowledge Israel's right to exist and defend themselves from Hamas, well, I just haven't seen that before. Of course I've been doing a lot more Googling, thanks to this thread. But even without the rest of the Arab world on their side, it's a complex situation. I found this entry in the Los Angeles Daily News blog that was helpful. I've seen others in a similar vein. Here is an excerpt, but I really recommend reading the whole thing as it explains a lot of the relationships. One other interesting thing I've found out is that Hamas never gives out the number of just their soldiers who are killed or wounded. They include civilians to inflate their numbers and garner sympathy. Also, it almost doesn't matter if the citizens support Hamas, they all seem to be united in their hatred of the Jews.
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Kath
Full Member
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Jun 26, 2014 12:15:31 GMT
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Post by Kath on Jul 21, 2014 18:10:41 GMT
Agree with what Sarah has said.
The civilian death toll, the babies and young children and innocent women who are being killed, is heartbreaking. I wish there was another option besides this.
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Sarah*H
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Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jul 21, 2014 18:11:46 GMT
I don't understand what is so hard to understand. Hamas is insane. They will never stop being insane. No one has any expectations that Hamas is going to change or that the people of Gaza are suddenly going to revolt. Israel is the only rational entity in the whole mess so Israel bears the brunt of people's expectations and frustrations EVEN THOUGH THAT ISN'T RATIONAL OR FAIR.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 21, 2014 18:21:39 GMT
No one has any expectations that Hamas is going to change or that the people of Gaza are suddenly going to revolt. And this is perhaps the problem. The world gives Hamas a pass for being crazy radicals and looks to Israel to take the high road. Well, perhaps it's time the world unite and say, "Hamas, you're insane. Every Palestinian and Israeli death is on YOUR hands and YOU need to stop the violence." I think it's because much of the world would rather see Israel obliterated even if it isn't right or fair- that persistent antisemitic mentality we can't seem to shed. Really, it seems only the US and Canada understand the reality of Hamas' guilt.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 22:41:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 18:31:55 GMT
I get what you're saying...but at some point, as your children age and mature, you do expect more from them and the expectations are more equitable.
In the case of Hamas/Palestine vs. Israel...Israel will always be held to that higher expectation because Hamas is not capable of maturing.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by Sarah*H on Jul 21, 2014 18:37:04 GMT
Thank you! You said it much more clearly than I was able to.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 22:41:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 19:02:03 GMT
Thank you! You said it much more clearly than I was able to. But since Palestine/Hamas is not capable of maturing and ever meeting equitable expectations, then perhaps they need to be treated like children and put them over your knee.
Enough really is enough. I know that in war and terror, equal, fair, and right don't always come into play. But Israel has done more than enough. How many more decades must they live with rockets exploding over their head because the Arabs want to blow them off the map?
I'm tired of people expecting Israel to continue to bend over backwards to be fair and equitable. I'm horrified at the loss of life, but IMO, that is ALL on Palestine. The blood is on their hands because they cannot stop. Their hatred of anything Israeli is more important to them than the lives of their women and children. That's pretty effing horrifying, IMO.
That hatred is on THEM. Not Israel.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 21, 2014 20:10:54 GMT
Okay, Sarah*H, thanks for the clarification, I finally "get" what you are saying. I agree with @gajenny though, it's time someone held Hamas accountable. They are more than just terrorists, they are part of the government. They are running out of support over there, and really, how bad is it that even Al-Qaeda doesn't back Hamas?
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~Lauren~
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Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 21, 2014 22:28:08 GMT
So, according to the Palestinian spokes people, the only way they will end violence is if Israel sets up a State of Palestine with Jerusalem as it's capital and based on pre-67 borders.
I hope Netenyahu says "F--k you"
Would England give up London? The French, Paris? The US, Washington?
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 21, 2014 22:48:59 GMT
And it still wouldn't be enough for the Arab neighbors. THIS IS NOT ABOUT LAND. If it was simply about land, the violence would have ceased already. This is about wiping out Israel completely. The Arab nations surrounding Israel have been 100% clear over the past 60 years- they will not stop until Israel is no more and the Jews are pushed into the sea. It wouldn't matter if Netenyahu agreed to give Palestinians Jerusalem they would still not be satisfied living side by side with Israel.
Jerusalem is a minor city to Islam compared to their other holy sites like Mecca and Medina. Jerusalem was the holy city for the Jews long before Islam existed. Palestinians and Arabs have no more right to Jerusalem than the Jews. And you know if Jerusalem was given over to Palestinians, Jews would be forbidden from the area. Even though Israel has ALWAYS allowed Muslims access to Jerusalem even when those Muslims go there to pray for the destruction of Israel. No, Israel has done far more for the Palestinians than they should have and much greater than deserved. They've already given land and resources at their own expense yet PLO, Hamas, and Hezbollah demand more using violence. Palestinians simply will not be satisfied until Israel no longer exists at all.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 22, 2014 1:54:42 GMT
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scorpeao
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Post by scorpeao on Jul 22, 2014 2:13:54 GMT
Thanks for that video link KatyCupcake. It was very informative.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 22, 2014 14:01:06 GMT
This is true, but as noted, it's not likely to happen.
Thank you for pointing that out. I wish people would note where their quotes are coming from instead of having it look they wrote the words.
Palestinians controlled Jerusalem up until the 1967 war and not only wouldn't allow Jews in, they wouldn't allow Christians in. As we all know The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is built on the site where Jesus is believed to have been crucified and buried, making it one of the most important pilgrimage sites in the world. When the Israelis took Jerusalem back it was discovered that the Church had been looted and basically used as a toilet by the Arabs. If for no other reason Christians should want Israel to continue to hold Jerusalem.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 22:41:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 15:39:51 GMT
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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 22, 2014 15:41:54 GMT
They are talking about it right now on CNN. Apparently, Delta isn't the only one, other airlines are considering doing the same thing.
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mapchic
Junior Member
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Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 22, 2014 16:41:43 GMT
I get what you're saying...but at some point, as your children age and mature, you do expect more from them and the expectations are more equitable.
In the case of Hamas/Palestine vs. Israel...Israel will always be held to that higher expectation because Hamas is not capable of maturing.
Does anyone else think that this kind of thinking is really, deeply condescending, bigoted, and offensive? To say that the Muslims/Arabs/People of any group are 'not capable of maturing' and acting like children? Nope. They are adults playing *very* adult games leading to the deaths of hundreds. To somehow give them a pass because they are somehow 'immature' is ridiculous. If they really are so 'immature' and childlike - why on earth should they be given a country? I actually believe in a 2 state solution. Not until the leadership of the West Bank and Gaza can prove that they are true partners for peace - not just using peace as a time to build more rockets and dig more tunnels.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
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Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jul 22, 2014 16:57:31 GMT
I get what you're saying...but at some point, as your children age and mature, you do expect more from them and the expectations are more equitable.
In the case of Hamas/Palestine vs. Israel...Israel will always be held to that higher expectation because Hamas is not capable of maturing.
Does anyone else think that this kind of thinking is really, deeply condescending, bigoted, and offensive? To say that the Muslims/Arabs/People of any group are 'not capable of maturing' and acting like children? Nope. They are adults playing *very* adult games leading to the deaths of hundreds. To somehow give them a pass because they are somehow 'immature' is ridiculous. If they really are so 'immature' and childlike - why on earth should they be given a country? I actually believe in a 2 state solution. Not until the leadership of the West Bank and Gaza can prove that they are true partners for peace - not just using peace as a time to build more rockets and dig more tunnels. That's mainly why I don't agree with that reasoning. They're not children launching firecrackers across the fence. They've got rocket launchers and are using their own people to shield their "fighters". Since you can't negotiate with crazy your options are limited. Israel has to continue defending her people.
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Sarah*H
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Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jul 22, 2014 16:58:36 GMT
Except that no one said that Muslims/Arabs/People are not capable of maturing. Hamas is a criminal organization - not from their perspective but the perspective of international law. It is not going to abandon the principles that guide its existence. My comments were about Hamas and not about Muslims/Arabs/People. Hamas' charter
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Post by I-95 on Jul 22, 2014 16:59:26 GMT
I'm sorry but I actually LOL when I read that. You do realize that the vast majority of Hamas leadership was either educated in the USA or the UK, right? They have more masters degrees than you can shake a stick at. Do they keep the average Palestinian dumbed down? Absolutely, but the leadership is busy getting themselves, and their families, a good education. WTH do you think runs their PR campaigns? That's not done by a bunch of dummies.
FAA has banned all flights to Tel Aviv for 24 hours.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 22, 2014 17:11:36 GMT
You can have all the education in the world, but if you behave like a criminal, you're a criminal. If you refuse to stop acting like a criminal, you're still a criminal.
I think that's all that is meant by the analogy.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 22:41:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 17:25:57 GMT
I'm the one that used that analogy of "maturing" and it's hard to explain what I meant...but based on the backlash I'm reading, you guys aren't taking it like I intended.
It all went back to (I think) Sarah saying that she expects more from her husband than she does her kids...simply because he's more mature...and it's okay to expect more from an adult. So in using that analogy, Sarah's DH is Israel because the world expects more from Israel because they're "mature", reasonable etc.
My point was not in any way meaning to infer that Hamas is simply immature and we should look the other way because they're simply immature.
It had less to do with the behavior of Israel vs. Hamas and more to do with the expectations the world has of Israel and Hamas. But I still probably didn't explain my logic any better.
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