Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 20:25:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 18:02:05 GMT
Here's how I took the maturing comment. When you mature, you change. You do things differently than when you were a child.
Hamas has no intention of changing. They choose the same behavior over and over again. They ARE capable of changing, they simply don't want to.
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mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 22, 2014 18:08:10 GMT
Here is a quick video that shows this occurring.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 22, 2014 18:32:20 GMT
I'm the one that used that analogy of "maturing" and it's hard to explain what I meant...but based on the backlash I'm reading, you guys aren't taking it like I intended.
It all went back to (I think) Sarah saying that she expects more from her husband than she does her kids...simply because he's more mature...and it's okay to expect more from an adult. So in using that analogy, Sarah's DH is Israel because the world expects more from Israel because they're "mature", reasonable etc.
My point was not in any way meaning to infer that Hamas is simply immature and we should look the other way because they're simply immature.
It had less to do with the behavior of Israel vs. Hamas and more to do with the expectations the world has of Israel and Hamas. But I still probably didn't explain my logic any better.
Meh, don't worry about it. You're right about the origination and she did say you explained it better, it's just that some don't agree with that whole premise, if I'm reading all the comments correctly.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jul 22, 2014 18:52:16 GMT
I'm the one that used that analogy of "maturing" and it's hard to explain what I meant...but based on the backlash I'm reading, you guys aren't taking it like I intended.
It all went back to (I think) Sarah saying that she expects more from her husband than she does her kids...simply because he's more mature...and it's okay to expect more from an adult. So in using that analogy, Sarah's DH is Israel because the world expects more from Israel because they're "mature", reasonable etc.
My point was not in any way meaning to infer that Hamas is simply immature and we should look the other way because they're simply immature.
It had less to do with the behavior of Israel vs. Hamas and more to do with the expectations the world has of Israel and Hamas. But I still probably didn't explain my logic any better.
Meh, don't worry about it. You're right about the origination and she did say you explained it better, it's just that some don't agree with that whole premise, if I'm reading all the comments correctly. For me, it's a flimsy excuse. I understand what's being said but it also gives Hamas a free pass (so-to-speak). Because they're crazy insane radicals who won't compromise then the more level headed Israel must bear responsibility. It isn't about fairness, or right or wrong. It's war and they're the aggressors. But maybe we're all saying the same thing and talking in circles at this point?!
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mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 22, 2014 19:36:41 GMT
The problem is that if the result of being the aggressor and acting insane is that Hamas gets whatever they want... well that sets a TERRIBLE precedent. Teaching that the way to get whatever you want is to just 'outcrazy' your enemies. Appeasing someone who has vowed to destroy you doesn't lead to peace. It just leads to more war.
We can see it in what is happening with Russia and the Ukraine. Russia invaded Georgia 2 years ago and absorbed the region of 'South Ossetia'. The global response? Everyone kind of averted their eyes, shuffled their feet shrugged and said 'That Vladimir - what a rascal'.
Here we are years later with Putin having 'reclaimed' the Crimea. Global response? Stern words about how Putin should leave his neighbors alone. No real actions and barely any genuine support to the Ukraine.
What did Putin learn from that appeasement? He can steal territory from his neighbors at will. Now we are in a situation where he has invaded (through very poorly disguised 'rebels') eastern Ukraine and supplied them with weapons which blew a commercial jetliner out of the sky.
This isn't the first time in history we seem to have to learn a lesson. Winston Churchill said "An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last." Israel does not have the luxury of forgetting the bitter wages of appeasement. They know they will be the very first ones eaten if they give an inch.
From here in Europe or Australia or N. America it is easy enough to say "Israel should just be nicer to Hamas, just give Hamas what they want." Because after all, we are not in danger. It isn't our children who live with bomb shelters on their playgrounds as the children of Sderot Israel do. It is easy to say to Israel just give a little land away... because it isn't our land, and it isn't our safety.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,387
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Jul 22, 2014 19:47:10 GMT
Meh, don't worry about it. You're right about the origination and she did say you explained it better, it's just that some don't agree with that whole premise, if I'm reading all the comments correctly. For me, it's a flimsy excuse. I understand what's being said but it also gives Hamas a free pass (so-to-speak). Because they're crazy insane radicals who won't compromise then the more level headed Israel must bear responsibility. It isn't about fairness, or right or wrong. It's war and they're the aggressors. But maybe we're all saying the same thing and talking in circles at this point?! Maybe. I know I've been thinking more re: my POV that the Allied/UN forces, when they did created the state in 1947, should have handled it differently and I keep coming back to the same thing. They should have gone in and controlled it, and if that meant that Palestine would never have a democratically elected gov't, but instead one that was chosen by the Allies/UN/whatever you want to call it, well too bad, so sad. By going in and staying in to keep the peace back then, all this absolutely could have been prevented. Back then, the Americans were the strongest. They had the bomb, and frankly, the memory of them using it was still pretty fresh. The technology was new enough that by that point, nobody else had perfected it. That was a pretty big stick they could've employed to get control of the region. Frankly, even though it's definitely more tricky now that other countries have The Bomb, we need to go in and take over Palestine, impose a two step solution, and impose a governing body over Palestine. And SHUT DOWN HAMAS/HEZBOLLAH. Round up their leadership and toss 'em in jail. That may well mean the state of Palestine doesn't get to elect its own government. Since Egypt seems to be one of the few reasonable nations in the Middle East who acknowledge Israel's right to exist, Palestine may need to be a state under the control of a gov't run Egypt, with US, Canadian, UK and other Western nations bringing in peace keeping forces. This has to stop. Innocent civilians who are being brainwashed into hating Israelis deserve better. Enough is enough.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jul 22, 2014 19:51:34 GMT
The problem is that if the result of being the aggressor and acting insane is that Hamas gets whatever they want... well that sets a TERRIBLE precedent. Teaching that the way to get whatever you want is to just 'outcrazy' your enemies. Appeasing someone who has vowed to destroy you doesn't lead to peace. It just leads to more war. We can see it in what is happening with Russia and the Ukraine. Russia invaded Georgia 2 years ago and absorbed the region of 'South Ossetia'. The global response? Everyone kind of averted their eyes, shuffled their feet shrugged and said 'That Vladimir - what a rascal'. Here we are years later with Putin having 'reclaimed' the Crimea. Global response? Stern words about how Putin should leave his neighbors alone. No real actions and barely any genuine support to the Ukraine. What did Putin learn from that appeasement? He can steal territory from his neighbors at will. Now we are in a situation where he has invaded (through very poorly disguised 'rebels') eastern Ukraine and supplied them with weapons which blew a commercial jetliner out of the sky. This isn't the first time in history we seem to have to learn a lesson. Winston Churchill said "An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last." Israel does not have the luxury of forgetting the bitter wages of appeasement. They know they will be the very first ones eaten if they give an inch. From here in Europe or Australia or N. America it is easy enough to say "Israel should just be nicer to Hamas, just give Hamas what they want." Because after all, we are not in danger. It isn't our children who live with bomb shelters on their playgrounds as the children of Sderot Israel do. It is easy to say to Israel just give a little land away... because it isn't our land, and it isn't our safety. Yeah, we're in agreement with one another. I wasn't clear in my prior post. That's exactly what I meant by Hamas getting a free pass to act aggressively. We all pretty much see them as radicals and we all agree they won't change their beliefs or aggression. What you and I are saying is that doesn't *absolve* them from responsibility. And it does not leave the burden of that war upon Israel. Their responsibility is to defend their people.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 22, 2014 20:01:02 GMT
Tania, you saw that several of us responded to your previous posts eventually, right? I can't find it now. cycworkerYou may be right but I can't see that your solutions would have guaranteed peace in the Middle East. More generations of hostility, more terrorism, perhaps slightly different victims ... the anger would have still been stoked and carefully nurtured over the decades.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 22, 2014 20:08:39 GMT
Yeah, after all, that has worked so well in the past. Not! Look at countries all over the Middle East and Central America for lessons learned.
ETA: I just want to add that I think the culture in the ME is so different from our own, that it makes it a much more difficult undertaking than it would seem. I think I first started to understand just how different it was when I read Nonie Darwish's book: Now They Call Me Infidel. I have since read a few other autobiographies.
You know the Egyptians also have a blockade on their border with Gaza (although that is where much of the arms smuggling takes place.) In the ME, the Palestinians are low man on the totem pole. They are not well regarded.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 22, 2014 22:00:42 GMT
This is the the core problem with the rest of the world. They would like to Israel to behave as they would behave, and for the most part Israel does, except that it's dealing with a group of people who are not like the rest of the world. They do not respond like sane, normal people should respond, but the world expects Israel to deal with them as though they were normal. It's an impossible task.
I'm not sure who wrote this statement originally, but apparently the EU is siding with Israel this time....
The EU condemns Hamas, issuing a statement on July 22 denouncing the terror group and condemning its use of civilians as human shields.
The EU’s foreign ministers, after a monthly meeting in Brussels, issued a statement on the Middle East condemning “the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas and militant groups in the Gaza Strip, directly harming civilians. These are criminal and unjustifiable acts.”
The statement also called on Hamas to immediately end its rocket attacks and to renounce violence. “All terrorist groups in Gaza must disarm. The EU strongly condemns calls on the civilian population of Gaza to provide themselves as human shields.”
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 22, 2014 22:35:32 GMT
It's good to hear the UN is finally openly condemning Hamas and recognizing they are the aggressors and putting their civilians in danger. It might mean more if I felt the UN wasn't nearly obsolete. It's almost as if a pea hand-slap would be more effective lately.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jul 22, 2014 23:03:03 GMT
I know here in Berlin there have been several pro-Palestinian rallies where anti-Semitic slurs, hate speech has been spoken. Jews have been attacked on the streets. For this kind of behavior to happen in Germany...there's no words I can express. We have a pretty large Muslim population over here. We've had a lot of German naturalized citizens who have left Germany to fight with Syria. They even announced several German citizens (Palestinians who moved here, gained citizenship and moved back to Gaza) have died over there recently. I should also add there have also been peaceful pro-Palestinian rallies as well. The majority of German citizens are very vocal against racism. It is still a deeply held shame over the horrors the Jews suffered at their forefathers hands. They want to make sure that kind of hatred never happens again. But it is a never ending war as there are still Neo Nazis and one gaining a seat in the EU parliament.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 22, 2014 23:12:46 GMT
Yet the antisemitism simmers there in spite of the lessons we hoped the world learned. It was ugly then and still is today.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,387
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Jul 22, 2014 23:17:56 GMT
Tania, you saw that several of us responded to your previous posts eventually, right? I can't find it now. cycworkerYou may be right but I can't see that your solutions would have guaranteed peace in the Middle East. More generations of hostility, more terrorism, perhaps slightly different victims ... the anger would have still been stoked and carefully nurtured over the decades. Missed it.. yeah, caught up now. Just frustrated. Hamas must be stopped, dammit. Palestinians and Israelis deserve to live in peace.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jul 22, 2014 23:25:41 GMT
Yet the antisemitism simmers there in spite of the lessons we hoped the world learned. It was ugly then and still is today. :-[I know, right? I really like when the Neo Nazis hold a rally and they're met with a larger crowd of anti-protesters. It's a big deal that German citizens are standing up, speaking out. I know Israel has a lot of supporters here. It's just that hate sometimes is louder, more in your face and ugly.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 20:25:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 23:26:18 GMT
Here is a quick video that shows this occurring. And here's the same video posted online 5½ years ago...January 2009. www.liveleak.com/view?i=116_1231063776 By all means prove your point mapchic but try and post up to date information.
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mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 22, 2014 23:55:06 GMT
Here is a quick video that shows this occurring. And here's the same video posted online 5½ years ago...January 2009. www.liveleak.com/view?i=116_1231063776 By all means prove your point mapchic but try and post up to date information. Is your point that because the video is from 2009 that means it *doesn't* tell us something valuable about how Hamas works? Do you honestly think that this somehow *isn't* happening today? I never claimed it was up to date... I was just giving a quick video example of Hamas clearly and obviously repeatedly breaks the Geneva Conventions. Sometimes when information is presented in the form of raw video that can help clarify exactly what the IDF is dealing with.
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mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 23, 2014 0:56:34 GMT
If you are looking for a more up to date example.... how about this example of terrorists using an ambulance for transport *today* Also today there was a *second* school found with weapons hidden in it. If you are keeping score that is TWO schools run by the UN being used to house weapons in one week. source
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 23, 2014 5:44:25 GMT
After seeing photos of the large anti-Israel protests in Paris and London, as well as seeing some of the comments here, I started looking around and it seems that the BBC and other publications there are nakedly pro-Palestinian -- to the point where they are using phony photos and even photos from movies! And as suspected, people reading and listening aren't getting the full truth. (Bold is mine.) When it mentioned that they "presented Palestinian claims against Israel in the most graphic detail." I was reminded of my brief perusal of the Human Rights Watch site. Their coverage for the past couple of years seems to use the same tactic, I just couldn't find any such graphic detail, and indeed not much mention, of recent Hamas attacks in the past year to year and a-half. (And they should be embarrassed for mentioning furniture.) The claims against Israel were indeed very graphic. UNRWA is supposed to be the UN Relief and Works Agency, and as such, unbiased. Because it is mainly staffed with Palestinians, I'm actually surprised they mentioned the rockets stored in their school. Of course if they turned them into their government, they just went right back into service to launch at Israel. The bottom line (to me) is that in order to present a pro-Palestinian bias, these reporters have to leave out an awful lot of actual events and fake a lot of photos and data.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 23, 2014 7:04:18 GMT
In response to BeckyTech's post on what the BBC does and doesn't say in their reports. A BBC reporter in Gaza showed the photo on the left in her report a couple of days ago, explaining what the Israeli shelling of Gaza was doing. The problem is the photo on the left is actually a photo of the damage done by a UN strike in Tripoli several years ago. The photo on the right is what Gaza actually looks like, but is one you never see flashed on the screen during any reports from the Gaza strip.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 23, 2014 17:59:04 GMT
In response to BeckyTech's post on what the BBC does and doesn't say in their reports. A BBC reporter in Gaza showed the photo on the left in her report a couple of days ago, explaining what the Israeli shelling of Gaza was doing. The problem is the photo on the left is actually a photo of the damage done by a UN strike in Tripoli several years ago. The photo on the right is what Gaza actually looks like, but is one you never see flashed on the screen during any reports from the Gaza strip. Bet your bottom dollar I'm not seeing any photo like that on the right. Thank you I-95.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 23, 2014 18:35:20 GMT
How incredibly frustrating! Journalism like that should be prosecuted! There's no truth to it whatsoever!
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lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29
Location: London Town
Jun 26, 2014 11:09:28 GMT
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Post by lynm on Jul 24, 2014 0:22:51 GMT
just speechless at some of the comments on here - I just wonder what planet some people are living on. This is not defending Israel, this is genocide, disproportionate and indiscriminate slaughter of civilians mostly women and children. I don't know what your news stations are telling you, but ours are telling us that the UN is calling for an immediate investigations into Israeli war crimes on Gaza. You only believe your own biased media and try to discredit anything else. I don't suppose for one minute that any of you will watch the following video link as you don't want to see what is actually happening on the streets of Gaza, discredit it if you will, but Jon Snow is one the most highly respected journalists in the world and is reporting for Channel 4 in the UK. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z4TvDbffI0&list=UUTrQ7HXWRRxr7OsOtodr2_w&app=desktop if after watching that, you still feel that Israel should carry on the killing, then shame on you, shame. on. you. oh and apologies for not sourcing my previous post, I never stated they were my words, I just didn't think to quote ! I'm just waiting now for the "I stopped watching after 2 mins brigade" go on - I dare you to watch to the end - open your eyes people and stop believing some of the propaganda on here ! A ceasefire will never be agreed upon, until Israel stops wanting everything their way. This time I really am bowing out of this thread - it's making my blood boil.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 20:25:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 0:32:34 GMT
A ceasefire will never be agreed upon, until Israel stops wanting everything their way. Riiiiiiiight.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 24, 2014 0:45:00 GMT
just speechless at some of the comments on here - I just wonder what planet some people are living on. This is not defending Israel, this is genocide, disproportionate and indiscriminate slaughter of civilians mostly women and children. I don't know what your news stations are telling you, but ours are telling us that the UN is calling for an immediate investigations into Israeli war crimes on Gaza. You only believe your own biased media and try to discredit anything else. I don't suppose for one minute that any of you will watch the following video link as you don't want to see what is actually happening on the streets of Gaza, discredit it if you will, but Jon Snow is one the most highly respected journalists in the world and is reporting for Channel 4 in the UK. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z4TvDbffI0&list=UUTrQ7HXWRRxr7OsOtodr2_w&app=desktop if after watching that, you still feel that Israel should carry on the killing, then shame on you, shame. on. you. oh and apologies for not sourcing my previous post, I never stated they were my words, I just didn't think to quote ! I'm just waiting now for the "I stopped watching after 2 mins brigade" go on - I dare you to watch to the end - open your eyes people and stop believing some of the propaganda on here ! A ceasefire will never be agreed upon, until Israel stops wanting everything their way. This time I really am bowing out of this thread - it's making my blood boil. I'm confused. You say that Israel wants everything it's own way. But wasn't it Hamas who rejected the cease-fire proposal?
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lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29
Location: London Town
Jun 26, 2014 11:09:28 GMT
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Post by lynm on Jul 24, 2014 0:49:41 GMT
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 24, 2014 0:56:56 GMT
the blockade is because of Israel, but Egypt does not want to re-open the Rafah border crossing. Egypt is not in Hamas's corner at the moment.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 24, 2014 1:58:49 GMT
Lynm, You're not going to find much agreement with your impression of the Middle East situation here. Not because we Americans are only exposed to the slanted media... we've already provided plenty of evidence that it's the European media that is inaccurately reporting the events. People who are there in Israel LIVING this nightmare have provided current evidence. There have been numerous historical timelines shared. What it all proves is that Israel is doing everything in their power to maintain peace short of bending over and letting Hamas kick their butts right into the sea. It isn't Israel storing missiles and arms inside UN run schools. It wasn't Israel that started firing missiles at Gaza. Why don't you take some time to look at sources that have been shared. Read up on the history of the region. Take special time reading through I-95's accounts as she's living through this first hand. Download the app shared that will allow you to hear the alarms each time Hamas fires missiles at Israel. Israel's casualties are blessedly and miraculously low- not because Hamas isn't trying to kill Israelis, but because Israel has been successful in protecting their civilians. The UN has declared Hamas a terrorist organization. Israel has already provided far more resources and humanitarian aid to Palestinians in Gaza, Golan Heights, and the West Bank than any other nation would ever provide people determined annihilate them.
I applaud Israel's firm yet compassionate efforts to protect not only their own civilian population, but also the lives of the civilians in Gaza. The Hamas government is using their own people as human shields and martyrs for you to get pissed off. Your anger is grossly misguided. Sadly there are some pretty terrible media outlets that help Hamas spread their antisemitic lies and propaganda and even more sad is that so many people are buying it. When both Liberals and Conservatives on this board can come together and agree this strongly on an issue, it should speak volumes.
Look at the historical facts if you can't trust modern media. Palestinians were offered their own nation by the UN the same time Israel became a nation in 1948. They rejected it because THEY WANTED IT ALL. They wanted it THEIR WAY. They refused to share land (that had never even been theirs) with Jews. They've been throwing a tantrum of epic terroristic proportions for 60 years because they haven't gotten their way.
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Post by elaine on Jul 24, 2014 2:22:54 GMT
just speechless at some of the comments on here - I just wonder what planet some people are living on. This is not defending Israel, this is genocide, disproportionate and indiscriminate slaughter of civilians mostly women and children. I don't know what your news stations are telling you, but ours are telling us that the UN is calling for an immediate investigations into Israeli war crimes on Gaza. You only believe your own biased media and try to discredit anything else. I don't suppose for one minute that any of you will watch the following video link as you don't want to see what is actually happening on the streets of Gaza, discredit it if you will, but Jon Snow is one the most highly respected journalists in the world and is reporting for Channel 4 in the UK. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z4TvDbffI0&list=UUTrQ7HXWRRxr7OsOtodr2_w&app=desktop if after watching that, you still feel that Israel should carry on the killing, then shame on you, shame. on. you. oh and apologies for not sourcing my previous post, I never stated they were my words, I just didn't think to quote ! I'm just waiting now for the "I stopped watching after 2 mins brigade" go on - I dare you to watch to the end - open your eyes people and stop believing some of the propaganda on here ! A ceasefire will never be agreed upon, until Israel stops wanting everything their way. This time I really am bowing out of this thread - it's making my blood boil. No, shame on you. This is all on Hamas and Israel's neighbors who are invested in keeping the conflict active because they will only be satisfied when Israel and the Jews are eliminated - including Lebanon.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 24, 2014 3:17:56 GMT
Genocide?? Your news people have their heads up their asses if that's what they're telling you. You cannot say that with a straight face and deny a streak of Europe's longstanding anti-Semitism in the same breath. That's okay. After the Holocaust, the Jews said Never Again and now they're making sure it really is Never Again. With or without your lame-ass support. So carry on, but don't expect any feelings of shame on my part. lynm
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