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Post by charlottetown on Jul 24, 2014 21:05:52 GMT
I have read through page 8 on this thread and found it quite interesting. I have been in a debate with a FB friend this week who says he is pro-Israel but anti-Zionist. In the opinion of peas more educated and/or involved with this conflict than I am, do you think this is possible? I've been holding my own in our debate but I haven't yet addressed this assertion of his and I'm not sure quite how to go about it. I thought being pro-Israel and pro-Zionist went hand in hand. Without the Zionists in 1948 there would be no Israel, right? Or am I wrong?
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Post by lucyg on Jul 24, 2014 21:08:54 GMT
I have read through page 8 on this thread and found it quite interesting. I have been in a debate with a FB friend this week who says he is pro-Israel but anti-Zionist. In the opinion of peas more educated and/or involved with this conflict than I am, do you think this is possible? I've been holding my own in our debate but I haven't yet addressed this assertion of his and I'm not sure quite how to go about it. I though being pro-Israel and pro-Zionist went hand in hand. Without the Zionists in 1948 there would be no Israel, right? Or am I wrong? You are correct. Claiming to be pro-Israel but anti-Zionist is a mask for being anti-Israel, or at best indicates a profound lack of understanding for the history and current reality of the region.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 25, 2014 7:31:33 GMT
I love watching the Egyptians going off on the leadership of Hamas. It's just too funny that while we're trying to tell the pro-Palestinian Europeans that this is what Hamas is really all about, the Egyptians, of all people, are doing Israel more favors by telling the truth. Love it, love, it, love it. TFS
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 25, 2014 9:22:36 GMT
Here is another thing you will never see your vaunted Jon Snow report on: how the Hamas leaders have skimmed so much aid money and robbed their own people so much that they are living as the millionaires and billionaires that they are in luxury in other areas of the ME. Yup, they sure are concerned about medical aid and food to those poor children they like to show on television so much. Here are a couple of reports from Egyptian TV showing just how those leaders are living. Now keep in mind, the Egyptians are no friends of Israel, they are just mad at the hypocritical Hamas leadership: Becky, that video is terrific! I watched it twice because I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Thanks for sharing it.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 25, 2014 17:49:09 GMT
I love watching the Egyptians going off on the leadership of Hamas. It's just too funny that while we're trying to tell the pro-Palestinian Europeans that this is what Hamas is really all about, the Egyptians, of all people, are doing Israel more favors by telling the truth. Love it, love, it, love it. TFS Here is another one, parts of which just made me laugh out loud. It's an Egyptian TV host going on a rant about Hamas' demands. Now of course any idiot knows that if Israel stopped the blockade on the Gaza border, it would be open season on Israel and the terrorists would just sail on through to wreak havoc. But did you ever wonder what the rest of their demands looked like from the Egyptian POV? At the point where he offers to build them a plastic pyramid to be a tourist trap and asks if they want a Nile river, complete with boats... I couldn't stop chuckling. Egyptian host to Hamas: Are you insane? (His slam against Israel sounds rather perfunctory to me, he even apologizes for it.)
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mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 25, 2014 17:58:08 GMT
Here is another take on the 'highly respected' Jon Snow - Jon Snow is deluded about Hamas
To be fair that is from the Telegraph which is a conservative UK news outlet. The thing is.... many Americans don't really *get* the UK media. Because we have a tradition of (attempted) journalistic impartiality the partisan nature of journalists like Jon Snow can be taken at face value here whereas in the UK they are far more known to have a partisan perspective.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 25, 2014 19:28:48 GMT
Did anyone else notice in that video that lynm linked of Jon Snow's report that at one point he cut away to footage from a Palestinian TV station (Palestine Al Yawm, yes, I looked up the logo) showing people loaded up into ambulances at night? I just had to wonder that if such sights are so common, why Channel 4 couldn't have shot the footage first-hand. Or is that a common thing to do in TV reporting? I know children are being injured and killed (some/many? by their own rockets - more than 100 Palestinian rockets have landed in Gaza), but to falsely represent other film and photos as being from this conflict, or completely faked, is just so incredibly dishonest and it seems increasingly common. You know the journalist is going more for the drama of the "cause" than the actual current events. It certainly casts doubt on the veracity of the rest of their body of work. Frankly, I find it difficult to believe most any film or photos supposedly coming out of Gaza these days. Between the Pallywood productions (mentioned on page 1 of this thread) and the reporters' bias (whether they use the Pallywood fakes or not), it's just hard to know. Look at this photo
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Post by I-95 on Jul 25, 2014 20:05:58 GMT
OMG....thank you sooooo much, BeckyTech. I really needed to laugh today and this had me laughing so hard I could barely breathe. I loved the last bit...the eleventh commandment....Restore Mohammed Morsi to the Presidency 'Why the hell not??' Too funny!!!
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 16:27:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 20:19:18 GMT
Here is another take on the 'highly respected' Jon Snow - Jon Snow is deluded about Hamas
To be fair that is from the Telegraph which is a conservative UK news outlet. The thing is.... many Americans don't really *get* the UK media. Because we have a tradition of (attempted) journalistic impartiality the partisan nature of journalists like Jon Snow can be taken at face value here whereas in the UK they are far more known to have a partisan perspective. If that is your opinion of UK media Mapchic then you're very much mistaken and have no idea what you're talking about! As for the rest of your accusations againt Jon Snow and that documentary that was shown about the children in Gaza you might find this info useful: Getty images have confirmed that those photos were taken in Gaza on Wednesday so the author of that article need to check his facts.And you need to keep up with current events. Yes, Jon Snow did apologize when " someone" pointed out to him that they were not photos of Gaza .He believed that they were telling the truth and that they had proof to back up their statement. But on further investigation the accusation proved to be unfounded. linkand here is Jon Snow's twitter quotes: Jon Snow @jonsnowc4 · Jul 24 I fell for it! This morning I tweeted that a photo on my Gaza story @mashable was incorrect after complaints. But Mashable was right…(1/2) Jon SnowVerified account @jonsnowc4 The disinformation of war. Getty has verified the photo @mashable originally used. Read the story: on.mash.to/1AbnuEh (2/2) and for the record Alan Johnson has nothing to do with the Telegraph he wrote that as a guest blogger. He's in fact the editor of Fathom: for a deeper understanding of Israel and the region and Senior Research Fellow at the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre (BICOM).
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Post by jennifercw on Jul 25, 2014 21:03:37 GMT
I know this is a serious thread, and I am thankful for it because I have learned a lot, but please tell me I am not the only one thinking "You know nothing Jon Snow" ...
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 25, 2014 21:20:23 GMT
Lym is one of those brainwashed by terrorist propoganda.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 25, 2014 21:21:11 GMT
Do you really think that's true any more? I think both the US and the UK used to have very high journalistic standards (not including the National Inquirer or The Sun) but somewhere along the line news became a competition to see who could break a story first and at that time all sense of value went out the window. I have been just as disgusted with the lack of impartiality shown by US news sources as I have been with the BBC. I don't trust any of them to be impartial any more, or even tell the truth for that matter.
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Post by elaine on Jul 25, 2014 21:29:38 GMT
I know this is a serious thread, and I am thankful for it because I have learned a lot, but please tell me I am not the only one thinking "You know nothing Jon Snow" ... Yes, and that he is proof of the GoT custom that anyone with the last name Snow is a bastard.
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 26, 2014 7:33:00 GMT
Here is another take on the 'highly respected' Jon Snow - Jon Snow is deluded about Hamas
To be fair that is from the Telegraph which is a conservative UK news outlet. The thing is.... many Americans don't really *get* the UK media. Because we have a tradition of (attempted) journalistic impartiality the partisan nature of journalists like Jon Snow can be taken at face value here whereas in the UK they are far more known to have a partisan perspective. I am not taking a view in this discussion but do have an observation regarding this statement. The UK do have an unrivalled reputation for totally unbiased and impartial news reporting in the main. The newspaper you quote is one of the most respected publications and the BBC World Service is listened to by many millions of people across the world for this very reason. I suggest that you have made a very sweeping biased statement here without having a lot of experience of UK news reporting on a regular basis, living with it rather than reading online on an irregular basis. You are right - you have just proved that American citizens don't 'get' the UK media. We report both sides and allow people to make up their own minds without adding politics into the mix for the main news from around the world.
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Post by jamieson on Jul 26, 2014 8:04:39 GMT
So, are all Palestinians assumed to be supporters of Hamas?
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 26, 2014 10:59:57 GMT
Here is another take on the 'highly respected' Jon Snow - Jon Snow is deluded about Hamas
To be fair that is from the Telegraph which is a conservative UK news outlet. The thing is.... many Americans don't really *get* the UK media. Because we have a tradition of (attempted) journalistic impartiality the partisan nature of journalists like Jon Snow can be taken at face value here whereas in the UK they are far more known to have a partisan perspective. I am not taking a view in this discussion but do have an observation regarding this statement. The UK do have an unrivalled reputation for totally unbiased and impartial news reporting in the main. The newspaper you quote is one of the most respected publications and the BBC World Service is listened to by many millions of people across the world for this very reason. I suggest that you have made a very sweeping biased statement here without having a lot of experience of UK news reporting on a regular basis, living with it rather than reading online on an irregular basis. You are right - you have just proved that American citizens don't 'get' the UK media. We report both sides and allow people to make up their own minds without adding politics into the mix for the main news from around the world. Honest question, I promise! I do look at UK papers fairly often. Usually the Guardian, Daily Telegraph, the Independent. And I look at then early, while sipping coffee, so perhaps I am not as alert as usual. But I have not seen this conflict covered from the Israeli side. What am I missing? I would really appreciate a link or 2. I am about to go walk my dog, but will check later.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 26, 2014 13:07:37 GMT
So, are all Palestinians assumed to be supporters of Hamas? No.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 26, 2014 15:20:18 GMT
So, are all Palestinians assumed to be supporters of Hamas? No. I would add that while they are not all supporters of Hamas, they do seem to be united in their hatred of the Jews. That has been pounded into them since childhood and with every press release of their own media since the early days of Yasser Arafat and continuing to this day with Hamas. Please be clear, I am saying "most" not "all."
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 26, 2014 15:55:37 GMT
Honest question, I promise! I do look at UK papers fairly often. Usually the Guardian, Daily Telegraph, the Independent. And I look at then early, while sipping coffee, so perhaps I am not as alert as usual. But I have not seen this conflict covered from the Israeli side. What am I missing? I would really appreciate a link or 2. I am about to go walk my dog, but will check later. Just got back home....have been out to the Mall having breakfast in our American Diner and shopping for hours! There perhaps is a cultural and geographical aspect to this. If you are an American reading the UK press from a point of view of Israel being totally right and Hamas totally wrong then you are probably going to get nothing out of reading the news from a UK point of view except a lot of aggravation! We word, compose and present our reports differently to the way American media does. We tend to report world news with facts and observations from both sides so you won't usually see anything much that reads as coming from just one side or the other......and we can be critical of both sides! That is the British press and it's aimed at British people so...... The first sentence may be about one particular side in the conflict - but it does not mean to imply that we are supporting that side in the situation. If you can read on through any opposite opinions you may have to the words, then maybe you will see that facts are usually also presented from the other point of view further into the report. Our radio and TV reporting has to be seen as fair so all sides are represented in discussions. Just at present, no matter who is right, wrong or indifferent, there is an undeniable humanitarian crisis in Gaza and our press/TV are reflecting that in the start of their reports about what is happening. The reports aren't done from the point of view of supporting Hamas or not supporting Israel but it is telling the British people the results of the conflict there. If it was Israel taking the brunt of the damage at the moment then our news items would lead with that. And remember, we are a lot nearer to this conflict than the US is so our slant is bound to be somewhat different. I watch CNN and ABC news reports, amongst others, on channels here in the UK, and read newspapers when we are in the US, but would not feel qualified to comment on the partiality/impartiality of anything said by your media when I've only read something once or just been told about it. However, some things said do aggravate me if I'm honest!! Different ways of looking at things I guess! So maybe it isn't anything you are missing, we are just approaching this subject from different angles!!
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 26, 2014 15:59:17 GMT
What would the rest of the world do to the US if Sesame Street characters advocated that our children should grow up to be police officers for the opportunity to kill Jews? That is Palestinian children's TV programming. How would the world respond if instead of having kids add and subtract apples and balloons in early math textbooks, they had them adding and subtracting bombs and guns to use to kill Jews? That is Palestinian curriculum in schools.
So while not every Palestinian supports Hamas, the culture of raising children to want to murder Jews is absolutely in line with Hamas' mission.
I mourn for the loss of innocence in all Palestinian children and anyone who is brought up learning only hatred and violence.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 26, 2014 16:03:03 GMT
Of course not. We know they're not, but it is dangerous for any Palestinian, especially in Gaza, to publicly oppose Hamas.
I don't know about Mapchic's listening/reading habits, but I listen to/watch both BBC and Sky on a daily basis and they are not unbiased. Years ago I would have bet the farm on whatever came out of a BBC newsreader's mouth, but that's simply not true any more....unless we, in the ME, get a different broadcast to what you get in the UK. I feel the same way about the US news sources.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 26, 2014 16:07:57 GMT
Honest question, I promise! I do look at UK papers fairly often. Usually the Guardian, Daily Telegraph, the Independent. And I look at then early, while sipping coffee, so perhaps I am not as alert as usual. But I have not seen this conflict covered from the Israeli side. What am I missing? I would really appreciate a link or 2. I am about to go walk my dog, but will check later. Just got back home....have been out to the Mall having breakfast in our American Diner and shopping for hours! There perhaps is a cultural and geographical aspect to this. If you are an American reading the UK press from a point of view of Israel being totally right and Hamas totally wrong then you are probably going to get nothing out of reading the news from a UK point of view except a lot of aggravation! We word, compose and present our reports differently to the way American media does. We tend to report world news with facts and observations from both sides so you won't usually see anything much that reads as coming from just one side or the other......and we can be critical of both sides! That is the British press and it's aimed at British people so...... First of all, Americans don't "view Israel as being totally right". But yes, you're right that most of the US would look at the Terrorist organization whose mission statement is to murder Jews and wipe Israel off of the face of the earth and think that mentality is "totally wrong." So we don't typically think very highly of Hamas. Add to that the facts (not merely opinion) that Hamas puts their own innocent civilians in harm's way on purpose and you've got really no basis to support HAMAS. I can understand the desire to see innocent Palestinians receiving aid, food, supplies, and to live in peace. Too bad Hamas doesn't want that for its people. Interesting that Israel is sending aid, food, supplies and offering peace if Hamas and Palestinians will agree to it... And you're showing your own here. I think your perception of US news and your own UK news sources are pretty biased. You made some interesting blanket statements that come across as pretty ethnocentric. This coming from one who isn't always a fan of the US media sources... I know ours are far from perfect, but at least they aren't supporting terrorism.
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 26, 2014 16:21:50 GMT
First of all, Americans don't "view Israel as being totally right". But yes, you're right that most of the US would look at the Terrorist organization whose mission statement is to murder Jews and wipe Israel off of the face of the earth and think that mentality is "totally wrong." So we don't typically think very highly of Hamas. Add to that the facts (not merely opinion) that Hamas puts their own innocent civilians in harm's way on purpose and you've got really no basis to support HAMAS. I can understand the desire to see innocent Palestinians receiving aid, food, supplies, and to live in peace. Too bad Hamas doesn't want that for its people. Interesting that Israel is sending aid, food, supplies and offering peace if Hamas and Palestinians will agree to it... And you're showing your own here. I think your perception of US news and your own UK news sources are pretty biased. You made some interesting blanket statements that come across as pretty ethnocentric. This coming from one who isn't always a fan of the US media sources... I know ours are far from perfect, but at least they aren't supporting terrorism. I did not state that I supported HAMAS. I did not state that the British press supported HAMAS. I said they report on the humanitarian side of the conflict - you know, in the interests of balanced reporting!!! I am pretty sure that other countries in the world report on it also. And on the subject of terrorism, please don't accuse the United Kingdom of supporting terrorism anywhere in the world.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 16:27:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 16:34:51 GMT
What would the rest of the world do to the US if Sesame Street characters advocated that our children should grow up to be police officers for the opportunity to kill Jews? Or black people? Or women? Or disabled people? Or Italians?
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Post by I-95 on Jul 26, 2014 16:39:25 GMT
Here's another little bit of information that is relative to the 'genocide' that Israel is accused of so often these days...
Of the 35,000 Muslims who have died fighting against Israel in the last 60 years, the vast majority (approximately 80%) were not Palestinians, they were Syrian and Egyptian troops killed during the 1948/67/73 wars.
During the same time (60 years) approximately 16,000 Israeli Jews were killed by Muslims (Palestinians, Syrians and Egyptians)
In 1970/71 approximately 20,000 Palestinians were killed by the entirely Muslim Royal Jordanian Army as King Hussein moved to rid his country of the PLO. Many times more than all the Palestinians killed by Israel since 1948.
There was no Palestinian outcry about that 'war crime'.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 26, 2014 17:00:52 GMT
I-95, that 20,000 is not "many times more" than 35,000. Is there a typo in there somewhere, or maybe I am misunderstanding what's being compared to what? Not arguing, just want to get the facts right. Also, I would love to have the link for all that info so I can whip it out next time we have this debate.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 16:27:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 17:10:51 GMT
I would love to have the link for all that info so I can whip it out next time we have this debate. Us? Rehash topics over and over again? Surely, you jest.
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Post by Frazzled Mom on Jul 26, 2014 17:26:15 GMT
I don't know if it belongs on this thread, but while there is so much debate going on, my experience with the conflict is much smaller - about three feet high. I teach Pre-K for a major university and we have a large international client base. One child in my class is from an Israeli family and just traveled back to Israel to visit relatives in May. She's an amazing child, bright and more thoughtful (in the philosophical sense) than most 5 year olds - an "old soul" so to speak. Out of the blue yesterday, she took my hand as we were playing outside and said "Teacher Gail, do you know there's a war in Israel?" I told her I was aware of the conflict and how sad it made me to hear about what was going on. I asked if she was still talking to her grandparents by skype or phone as she usually does. She shook her head sadly and said, "My family...we don't know if they're dead..." and then she didn't want to talk about it anymore.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 16:27:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 17:32:07 GMT
I don't know if it belongs on this thread, but while there is so much debate going on, my experience with the conflict is much smaller - about three feet high. I teach Pre-K for a major university and we have a large international client base. One child in my class is from an Israeli family and just traveled back to Israel to visit relatives in May. She's an amazing child, bright and more thoughtful (in the philosophical sense) than most 5 year olds - an "old soul" so to speak. Out of the blue yesterday, she took my hand as we were playing outside and said "Teacher Gail, do you know there's a war in Israel?" I told her I was aware of the conflict and how sad it made me to hear about what was going on. I asked if she was still talking to her grandparents by skype or phone as she usually does. She shook her head sadly and said, "My family...we don't know if they're dead..." and then she didn't want to talk about it anymore.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 26, 2014 17:37:48 GMT
Sorry Lucy, I was pulling stuff from different sites...but the part that's in the quote box has the source attached. To try and clarify the numbers. 35,000 Muslims killed fighting Israel, approximately 80% were not Palestinians ...or around 7,000 were Palestinians, the rest were Syrians and Egyptians during the 1946/67/73 wars The 20,000 is the number of Palestinians that were killed when Jordan expelled the PLO, ergo, 20,000 is nearly 3x the number of Palestinians killed in conflicts with Israel... Make sense? Lemme go see if I can track down the sites again. I pulled the numbers from mostly long boring articles...and God knows I should write that sh*t down when I'm posting to the Peas, I know better!! I'll be back (said in my best Governator voice)
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