scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,307
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Jul 12, 2014 20:16:48 GMT
Awwww, thanks Jody. I really appreciate that. I hope it ends soon too. It's not just the conflict that's distressing, it's the incredible economic impact this has on the lives of so many people here.... I was blown away the other day when I came down to TA. The streets were empty of all but the locals going about their business. This is July, the height of the tourist season, and the city is deserted. Hotels are empty, tour buses sit idle, restaurants are struggling. People here have enough to deal with without having their businesses and paychecks threatened too. I really think women should be in charge of these conflicts..... I mean, we are so much more sensible. We don't want our children killed, our houses bombed... we'd be like "Can we talk about this?" We'd make tea, sit down, admire each others shoes, talk about childbirth and who puts their carts back at the supermarket, then agree to an equitable land division and all go home to fix dinner. Ya think. Most of the Palastinian women are illiterate and thus easily brainwashed
Mother proud of son
My niece who lives near enough to Gaza that they now sleep with their 4 yr and 18 mo sons in a bomb shelter every night, had this on her FB status. "The politics of the moment are fascinating and dreadful, but what really interests me currently is a counterfactual: What if, nine years ago, when Israel withdrew its soldiers and settlers from Gaza, the Palestinians had made a different choice. What if they chose to build the nucleus of a state, rather than a series of subterranean rocket factories?.... The Israelis did not impose a blockade on Gaza right away. That came later, when it became clear that Palestinian groups were considering using their newly liberated territory as a launching pad for attacks. In the days after withdrawal, the Israelis encouraged Gaza’s development. A group of American Jewish donors paid $14 million for 3,000 greenhouses left behind by expelled Jewish settlers and donated them to the Palestinian Authority. The greenhouses were soon looted and destroyed, serving, until today, as a perfect metaphor for Gaza’s wasted opportunity. If Gaza had, despite all the difficulties, despite all the handicaps imposed on it by Israel and Egypt, taken practical steps toward creating the nucleus of a state, I believe Israel would have soon moved to evacuate large sections of the West Bank as well. But what Hamas wants most is not a state in a part of Palestine. What it wants is the elimination of Israel. It will not achieve the latter, and it is actively thwarting the former." llink to original article
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Dani-Mani
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,709
Jun 28, 2014 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Dani-Mani on Jul 12, 2014 20:19:55 GMT
This thread has a lot of useful information--thanks guys, keep it coming!
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ingrid
Full Member
Posts: 490
Jun 26, 2014 0:52:41 GMT
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Post by ingrid on Jul 12, 2014 20:38:27 GMT
My friend's husband's village in Gaza was bombed and her brothers-in-law were where the shelling happened. We are doing prayers that no one was hurt but t is not looking good. I am not anti-Israel by any means but I am anti Zionists. If you pray, please pray for the innocent people (Palestinians, Christians and Jews) caught in the battle. I also would not support Hamas by any means! People who self-identify as anti-zionists fall somewhere on the anti-Israel spectrum. Whether they believe Israel should be stripped of some land, all land, or completely obliterated, those are the ideas that fall on that spectrum. It's pretty difficult to be cool with Israel and simultaneously anti-zionist.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 12, 2014 20:48:27 GMT
ScrappingHappy.....your niece is absolutely right. Along the same lines, my favorite quote from Benjamin Netanyahu......
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel"
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 10:22:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 20:51:26 GMT
I am going to politely bow out of this conversation because I don't want to anger anyone or hurt anyone's feelings.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 10:22:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 22:15:17 GMT
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel"
So true. I really like Netanyahu.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 10:22:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 22:17:43 GMT
I am going to politely bow out of this conversation because I don't want to anger anyone or hurt anyone's feelings. A little late for that.
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Post by elaine on Jul 12, 2014 23:23:34 GMT
My personal opinion is that the Palestinians in Israel lost any sympathy I might have felt for them (not that there was much) when they VOTED Hamas into power.
Let all the surrounding countries that kicked the Jews out and confiscated their land when Israel was formed give that land up for Palestinian resettlement.
So far my family is safe - they are in a community near Jerusalem.
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Post by LauraTen on Jul 13, 2014 1:14:44 GMT
My personal opinion is that the Palestinians in Israel lost any sympathy I might have felt for them (not that there was much) when they VOTED Hamas into power. Let all the surrounding countries that kicked the Jews out and confiscated their land when Israel was formed give that land up for Palestinian resettlement. So far my family is safe - they are in a community near Jerusalem. elaine, well said!!!
I wrote early on in this thread that "this conflict started when 3 Israeli teens were kidnapped and killed".
That should not be forgotten.
I'm glad the peas and their families are safe for now.
I have immediate family living in Jerusalem.
This morning, I heard the sirens while on the phone with my dad.
For the record, I have lived in Israel, too.
I finished high school in Jerusalem.
I served two years in the Israeli Army then returned to the States for college.
I can remember rocks being thrown at my bus, filled with soldiers at the start of the first Intifada.
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Post by meeko77 on Jul 13, 2014 1:33:38 GMT
I am straight up going to admit I am almost completely clueless when it comes to this situation. So, if someone has their patience panties on today, can you explain to me what is going on? Like you were explaining it to a teenager who had no idea of the history here? I don't mean this at all disrespectful. I just have no clue what is going on and I would like to know more. I don't remember much from history class, and when I try googling this, I get lost in confusion and quit reading because it makes my head spin. I know it goes back for many centuries, and the USA became involved during/after WWII. But I am just very lost. So...now that you all think I am dumb, is someone willing to enlighten me? Please and thank you!
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Post by lucyg on Jul 13, 2014 1:37:06 GMT
Meeko, you know we're going to have to go back more than 2,000 years here, right?
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Post by AussieMeg on Jul 13, 2014 1:52:08 GMT
OMG, please stay safe!!! I had no idea you were over there.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 10:22:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 1:55:42 GMT
Meeko, you know we're going to have to go back more than 2,000 years here, right? You're on Pacific time...you've got a few hours until bedtime...go ahead Lucy.
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Post by meeko77 on Jul 13, 2014 1:59:33 GMT
Yeah Lucy, I know it goes WAAYYYY back, and I know there have been battles in the Holy Land for thousands of years. I guess what I wonder is how we as Americans got so involved in it, and why things are so bad there now.
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Post by coaliesquirrel on Jul 13, 2014 2:18:24 GMT
I binge-watched the Simon Schama Jewish history series today, and I was really struck by one thing he was talking about - that Jews got along quite well in Muslim areas in the beginning due to their shared history, similar dietary restrictions, etc. as well as no inherent prejudice against them as "Christ-killers" unlike the Christians of the time. How sad that things have deteriorated so and those two related religions can no longer value their similarities more than their differences.
Unfortunately it seems these major religions (or at the very least Islam and Christianity - I don't know if there's a similar level of conflict in Judaism) is involved in so much absolutist conflict to determine which one of its own branches is *the* right one. With so little compassion and understanding for slight differences among brethren it's not surprising there's little or no tolerance for those of other religions. If each sect wasn't so eager to impose itself on all others, these conflicts could end.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 13, 2014 2:43:25 GMT
Okay. I'm going to try to do the super-quick Readers Digest version, but I'm sure I'll leave out important stuff and I-95 or someone else can correct me.
Palestine used to be the Jewish homeland, but the Jews were mostly dispersed throughout the Old World in the 1st century AD after the destruction of the Temple by the Romans ... the Diaspora. They faced a lot of persecution, hatred, and violence throughout the centuries. In the late 19th century, when the violence was starting to ramp up again (remember Fiddler on the Roof?), a movement (Zionism) started to get Jews to return to Palestine where they would have a real homeland of their own, in theory, and Jews slowly started emigrating there from Europe.
Meanwhile, Palestine was occupied territory and had never really been a country of its own. The Romans, the Ottomans (Turkish empire), and now the British "owned" the country. The area covered was much larger than the current Israel. There were a lot of Arabs (Palestinians) living there and some very religious Jews had been there all along, too, who mostly just worshiped God and did nothing else. The Jews coming from Europe were different and more demanding in many ways. They started building farms and irrigation and turning the area into a modern country. And they wanted it to be their own country.
In 1917 they talked the British into promising an official Jewish homeland in Palestine after WWI but the Arabs resisted and it didn't happen. But after WWII and the Holocaust, the world realized that there had to be a Jewish homeland, both to take in war survivors/refugees and to help ensure it would never happen again, that the Jews would always have somewhere safe to go. The United Nations was formed after WWII and one of its first acts (maybe its very first act?) in 1947 was to vote on partitioning Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab nations. The Jews accepted, the Arabs didn't. Every Muslim nation in the Middle East declared war on Israel on its Independence Day in May 1948. Israel fought them all off and has been at war or at threat of war every day since.
The Arab Palestinians refused to go along with the deal offered them and the surrounding Arab nations refused to take them in, because it suited their politics better to keep the Palestinians in refugee camps in impoverished conditions, where they basically sit to this day, wallowing in festering hatred. Their leadership has one goal and that is to destroy Israel. A few of the surrounding Arab nations have made their peace with Israel but that can change overnight with a change of regime.
The reason the U.S. is so heavily involved is that it has always been the strongest supporter of Israel. While there was always anti-Semitism in the U.S., there was never the history of violence and persecution that Europe suffered from. Lots of Jews had come here to escape hatred in Europe and to seek opportunities that were denied them in the old country. So there was also a small but successful and vocal Jewish community in the U.S. that wanted to support Israel. And there is a large Christian evangelical community that supports the Jewish presence in what is essentially the Holy Land for Jews, Christians, AND Muslims.
Also, Israel is the only Western-style democracy in the Middle East and has always been the underdog in these battles ... a few million Israelis trying to survive in the face of attack by hundreds of millions of angry Arabs. Americans love an underdog.
There is certainly controversy over some of Israel's actions in the Occupied Territories. But the bottom line is that Israel has survived the last 65+ years by the skin of its teeth and it is still a daily struggle in the face of constant Palestinian attack. I can't fault them for perhaps being overly vigilant in their own defense.
Israel might be able to survive without U.S. support, but I don't want to see it happen.
Okay, I am out of steam. Someone else take over.
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ingrid
Full Member
Posts: 490
Jun 26, 2014 0:52:41 GMT
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Post by ingrid on Jul 13, 2014 2:49:03 GMT
Lucy.....bravo. You broke down a very complicated topic in a way that my 11-year-old could probably understand without inflammatory editorial remarks. Well done.
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chico
Junior Member
Posts: 77
Jun 28, 2014 4:03:03 GMT
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Post by chico on Jul 13, 2014 3:00:28 GMT
Thank you Lucy for giving that condensed history lesson These kinds of discussions are exactly why I appreciate the peas so much!
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 10:22:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 3:13:11 GMT
Lucy...I was kidding. I can't believe you did that...and so well.
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Post by CarolinaGirl71 on Jul 13, 2014 3:19:10 GMT
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 13, 2014 3:27:06 GMT
I am straight up going to admit I am almost completely clueless when it comes to this situation. So, if someone has their patience panties on today, can you explain to me what is going on? Like you were explaining it to a teenager who had no idea of the history here? I don't mean this at all disrespectful. I just have no clue what is going on and I would like to know more. I don't remember much from history class, and when I try googling this, I get lost in confusion and quit reading because it makes my head spin. I know it goes back for many centuries, and the USA became involved during/after WWII. But I am just very lost. So...now that you all think I am dumb, is someone willing to enlighten me? Please and thank you! ETA: I started this about an hour ago and left to do some errands. I see Lucy has already responded (and very well) so I don't know if this will be helpful or not. I'll delete it if you think it is inaccurate, or not helpful, just send me an e-mail. On short notice and with limited time, this might help you understand some of the most recent history: The History of the Middle East Crises in 11 minutes. Spoiler alert: the Palestinians have been offered land several times and their leaders have rejected those offers in favor of "pushing the Jews into the sea" each time. It's a bit difficult to negotiate anything (let alone peace) with people whose stated purpose is to destroy you: The Palestinians have been cited by the UN for running summer camps for children where the sole purpose is to teach them hate and terror tactics. Here is a little sampling of children's TV programming and you can view more on YouTube. These should get you started...
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Post by meeko77 on Jul 13, 2014 3:29:57 GMT
Wow Lucy! You did great! I really appreciate that more than you know. I know that took time out of your day that you could have spent doing something else, so I am very grateful for you taking your time to do that. For the sake of discussion, not arguing at all...I totally "get" why people would want to help out the underdog. I am going to try to ask this without sounding anti-American , or disrespectful to any particular party or religion, etc, but here I go... Americans as individual people are great people. However, let's get real, America as a whole generally only gets involved in something that benefits America. If our country was truly the humanitarians we so claim to be, we would be involved in helping other countries who are being bullied by other countries as well. (Not that our country has never been the bullies, I mean, let's not forget the trail of tears, slavery, etc). So, what is the benefit to the country to be involved in this? I wish I could believe we as a country are involved just because it's the right thing to do, but when you look at some of our other history that I am not so proud of, I have my doubts. I am very grateful to have the freedoms we have as Americans, and I am proud of my country. I, however, am not proud of many things my country has done, so I try to keep an open mind about things and not just follow the mainstream without questioning and forming my own opinion. I do realize there are some vocal Americans who may be helping the efforts along. For that I am proud of them for standing up for what they believe in. I just wonder what our country as a whole (I guess I mean the government, not the people) is looking for in this. Is there some hidden motive? I honestly intend no disrespect here to anyone. I am seriously asking to learn more here.
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Post by meeko77 on Jul 13, 2014 3:31:17 GMT
Thank you BeckyTech!
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Post by jamieson on Jul 13, 2014 3:35:41 GMT
I personally am disgusted by the behavior of both sides of this conflict.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 13, 2014 3:43:27 GMT
5yo on my lap. Be back later.
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Post by meeko77 on Jul 13, 2014 3:56:12 GMT
That children's TV program with the bumblebee costume is horrible! Utterly disgusting that children would be taught that kind of hate and violence. (For those who didn't watch it, it is an adult in a bumblebee costume encouraging children to fist fight, stone, and kill Jewish people.) Unbelievable!
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lbrock44
Junior Member
Posts: 73
Jun 29, 2014 2:56:24 GMT
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Post by lbrock44 on Jul 13, 2014 3:57:13 GMT
I find the media very biased towards Israel. We actually studied this in our church quite a bit.... Our interim pastor is involved on a national level. Israel does not abide by agreements... It can take hours for Muslims to move through the city because of check points that apply only to them. Jews, Muslims and Christians all have religious and historical interests in Jerusalem, but most of the conflict seems to be economically based. The website blow has some very interesting facts: lid Americans knewIf the media is biased toward Israel, that's because Israel is a civilized Western nation that follows the rules. Not that they never do anything wrong, but they at least try to treat Palestinians fairly most of the time. Things are grim in the occupied territories, but for security reasons ... you can thank the Palestinians for that, too. The Palestinian leaders (note I am not saying every Palestinian) are dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew in Israel.
Israel has a right to defend itself and to ensure its own survival.
I believe your church and pastor are being misled. Yes, this. Israel has the right to defend themselves. That website posted, Ifamericaknew, what a crock of shit. If you cannot recognize blatant propaganda like that, your view is likely to be very skewed. Do I feel sorry for the Palestinian people? Yeah, I do. They are stuck in an terrible situation, and it doesn't help when their own leaders back a terrorist group.
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ingrid
Full Member
Posts: 490
Jun 26, 2014 0:52:41 GMT
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Post by ingrid on Jul 13, 2014 4:54:14 GMT
Wow Lucy! You did great! I really appreciate that more than you know. I know that took time out of your day that you could have spent doing something else, so I am very grateful for you taking your time to do that. For the sake of discussion, not arguing at all...I totally "get" why people would want to help out the underdog. I am going to try to ask this without sounding anti-American , or disrespectful to any particular party or religion, etc, but here I go... Americans as individual people are great people. However, let's get real, America as a whole generally only gets involved in something that benefits America. If our country was truly the humanitarians we so claim to be, we would be involved in helping other countries who are being bullied by other countries as well. (Not that our country has never been the bullies, I mean, let's not forget the trail of tears, slavery, etc). So, what is the benefit to the country to be involved in this? I wish I could believe we as a country are involved just because it's the right thing to do, but when you look at some of our other history that I am not so proud of, I have my doubts. I am very grateful to have the freedoms we have as Americans, and I am proud of my country. I, however, am not proud of many things my country has done, so I try to keep an open mind about things and not just follow the mainstream without questioning and forming my own opinion. I do realize there are some vocal Americans who may be helping the efforts along. For that I am proud of them for standing up for what they believe in. I just wonder what our country as a whole (I guess I mean the government, not the people) is looking for in this. Is there some hidden motive? I honestly intend no disrespect here to anyone. I am seriously asking to learn more here. I'm going to cruise on by the "America...only gets involved with something that benefits America" and try to answer your question. Israel is a stable ally in a volatile part of the world. I can't remember who called it "America's aircraft carrier in the Middle East" but that's not completely inaccurate. It's a decent place for us to have a military foothold. Many of the countries/groups/states that consider Israel an enemy see the US as an enemy. The knowledge we've gained from Israel about counter-terrorism has been very valuable and beneficial. Plus, krav maga is so kickass. Similar governments, religious factors, and the fact that we're still horrified by the way Jewish people were treated in the first half of the 20th century are (I think) contributing factors since there's still a fairly pro-Israel sentiment (according to recent/present polls) and fewer and fewer Americans really even understand the history of Israel.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 13, 2014 6:03:03 GMT
That children's TV program with the bumblebee costume is horrible! Utterly disgusting that children would be taught that kind of hate and violence. (For those who didn't watch it, it is an adult in a bumblebee costume encouraging children to fist fight, stone, and kill Jewish people.) Unbelievable! It's disgusting, but it's pretty mild compared to a lot of the anti Semitic propaganda that is circulated around the world and has been for eons. In Lucy's narrative, where she said "They faced a lot of persecution, hatred, and violence throughout the centuries." I'll expand a bit: Anti Semitic propaganda helped fuel the Russian and Eastern European pogroms (not a misspelling) going back centuries. Those pogroms drove Jews off their land and into cities where they were often persecuted. For centuries they weren't allowed to own land. They became tradesmen and shop owners because they had to. Are you familiar with Kristallnacht? If not, I'll grab the first couple of sentences from Wikipedia: Events like Kristallnacht, where Jews were beaten and killed, had been happening in local towns and villages - by the locals - for hundreds of years. It was a major driver of the Zionists movement. When the original Zionists first immigrated to (what is now) Israel, they didn't know bupkis about farming, but they had to feed themselves, so they learned. They cleared swamps, irrigated deserts, and broke their backs turning raw land into fertile fields. They set up kibbutzim for survival; they couldn't possibly protect themselves and feed themselves on individual farms back then.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 13, 2014 8:52:57 GMT
I think Ingrid pretty much covered what I would have said. It's almost 2:00 in the morning now. Maybe tomorrow I will have something more lucid to say.
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