cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,387
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
|
Post by cycworker on Jul 13, 2014 9:25:02 GMT
I fully admit to being politically/historically ignorant of the whole Israel/Palestinian situaion. I am further hindered by never knowing whether the information I read is biased/propaganda. I just wanted to say that my thoughts are with the civilians on both sides. Imagine747 - it is impossible for me to understand how it is to live in such a a situation and I hope you and your family stay safe. And Neisey, thinking of you and your family too. Well said. I, too, have never been able to get a handle on this conflict in terms of understanding the political/historical background. I can't figure out where to start re: finding a good source that will explain both sides. I just know I pray for all civilians impacted by this situation and I wish that somehow a solution could be found.
|
|
|
Post by meeko77 on Jul 13, 2014 9:59:17 GMT
Ingrid, Becky Tech, and Lucy: thank you so much for taking your time to explain that! It really has helped me have a better understanding. Although I don't support what the Palestinians have done/are doing, I also know the individual citizens can't help what their leaders do, or what they have been indoctrinated to believe. So I do feel bad for them. However, there really is no good excuse or reason why the Jewish people have been treated so badly and for so long. I have never understood why there is such a hatred out there. Makes absolutely no sense to me. I also have a much better understanding why the US is involved in this. My thoughts are with the people of that area. I can't even imagine the horrors they are living. I would love to see a peaceful agreement, but, it appears that may never happen. Imagine747, I am so sorry you are having to go through this. My thoughts are with you and your family, and everyone else there as well. I can't imagine how it must be to live in a war zone. I am glad you and the others can actually carry on with normal life (for the most part) and have to admire the sense of humor in the face of such danger. It was really nice to read things from your perspective as well. Am I correct in my assumption (you know what happens with assumptions, right?) that you are an American living in Israel? Imagine747 and anyone else who is very close to this situation: I know how hard it can be to read a discussion on something that so closely involves you and people discussing it without really thinking about the "real" people involved in it. I hope that my attempt to gain a better understanding does not contribute to any hurt feelings. I just really want to understand more, and having real people explain it helps me so much more than trying to piece it together from news articles. Becky Tech, that video helped a lot as well! Thank you everyone!
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 13, 2014 10:02:28 GMT
Don't feel bad, if our Government (US) understood the Middle East at all, we would never have gone into Iraq. One of the things that is vital to understanding the ME is to grasp the concept that these people are tribal. Within their own countries they have constant conflicts as different tribes turn on each other. In all honestly, it's part of what keeps Israel safe... the surrounding countries can't agree on anything, nor work together in a coordinated manner. If they ever did Israel would be up a creek, despite having one of the best trained armies in the free world. As far as American support goes....I've seen a lot of comments on FB denouncing President Obama for 'not stepping in to help Israel'. Please be clear, Israel is not a weak and defenseless country who needs big brother to rush in and help. That may have been true as recently as 20 years ago, but Israel has come a long way from the days when thousands of war shattered European Jews landed in Haifa. This country is a world leader in technology, medical research, and military tactics. They have gone from living in hastily thrown together housing, to slick cities and cell phones. For the most part they would rather not have America rushing in to take care of them. Israel has grown up and can take care of herself. That doesn't mean the moral support is unwanted, nor are Israelis ungrateful to have a strong friend standing by should they need the help, but make no mistake, this is a strong and determined country and is justifiably proud of their ability to defend themselves. If you're not into dry history books, read anything Leon Uris has written, from Mila 18 to The Haj....and when the rockets stop....come visit Israel
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 13, 2014 10:23:18 GMT
Thanks Meeko....it does not hurt my feelings at all. This is a country that's full of conflict, and sometimes my personal opinions on the situation are not always welcomed by Israelis either (including my own DH) and during times of tension, as we are in right now, it's not always the best time to express them. Yes, we are Americans, living in Israel. DH's parents were part of a group of Americans who came here in 1948 and founded a Kibbutz. My late FIL (z"l) was part of the crew on the famous ship Exodus that ran the British blockade to bring refugees from Europe here after WW2.
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Jul 13, 2014 12:38:06 GMT
Thanks Meeko....it does not hurt my feelings at all. This is a country that's full of conflict, and sometimes my personal opinions on the situation are not always welcomed by Israelis either (including my own DH) and during times of tension, as we are in right now, it's not always the best time to express them. Yes, we are Americans, living in Israel. DH's parents were part of a group of Americans who came here in 1948 and founded a Kibbutz. My late FIL (z"l) was part of the crew on the famous ship Exodus that ran the British blockade to bring refugees from Europe here after WW2. Part of Exodus! Fascinating. Read the novel and loved it. Can you or anyone else recommend a good nonfiction book about the blockades, Hagannah, and all of the events that went on during that time period?
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 10:26:27 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 14:13:53 GMT
Thanks Meeko....it does not hurt my feelings at all. This is a country that's full of conflict, and sometimes my personal opinions on the situation are not always welcomed by Israelis either (including my own DH) and during times of tension, as we are in right now, it's not always the best time to express them. Yes, we are Americans, living in Israel. DH's parents were part of a group of Americans who came here in 1948 and founded a Kibbutz. My late FIL (z"l) was part of the crew on the famous ship Exodus that ran the British blockade to bring refugees from Europe here after WW2. I can only imagine the stories that you and your DH were told first hand.
|
|
|
Post by gar on Jul 13, 2014 14:18:43 GMT
Don't feel bad, if our Government (US) understood the Middle East at all, we would never have gone into Iraq. One of the things that is vital to understanding the ME is to grasp the concept that these people are tribal. Within their own countries they have constant conflicts as different tribes turn on each other. I think that's a very salient point, not only for the US government.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 10:26:27 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 15:45:57 GMT
I am straight up going to admit I am almost completely clueless when it comes to this situation. So, if someone has their patience panties on today, can you explain to me what is going on? Like you were explaining it to a teenager who had no idea of the history here? You might want to have a read of this link too meeko, to get another perspective of the whole conflict. www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Jul 13, 2014 15:49:45 GMT
I am really enjoying this thread. Well, maybe enjoying isn't the right term.
I have a history degree, but my focus was elsewhere, so there is a lot about this part of the world that I am still learning.
|
|
|
Post by shevy on Jul 13, 2014 17:11:44 GMT
This is part of what I really really would have missed if 2 Peas closed and didn't reorganize elsewhere. I learn so much from the others here that I may not learn elsewhere and/or I see a better firsthand experience than just reading about it.
|
|
valincal
Drama Llama
Southern Alberta
Posts: 5,768
Jun 27, 2014 2:21:22 GMT
|
Post by valincal on Jul 13, 2014 17:58:45 GMT
Thank you to Lucy, I95 and others for this thread! I also struggle to understand the situation. Glad to have a little more knowledge today.
|
|
purplebee
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,790
Jun 27, 2014 20:37:34 GMT
|
Post by purplebee on Jul 13, 2014 18:04:05 GMT
Thank you to all who have participated in this thread, you have helped me to better understand a difficult and complex situation. I-95, stay safe, my prayers are with you and your family. Remember, everyone, pray unceasingly for PEACE!
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Jul 13, 2014 18:23:41 GMT
I'll be thinking about you, I-95. As many times as you've talked about it, I still find it hard to believe you're there right now.
|
|
Jili
Pearl Clutcher
SLPea
Posts: 4,366
Jun 26, 2014 1:26:48 GMT
|
Post by Jili on Jul 13, 2014 18:45:57 GMT
This is part of what I really really would have missed if 2 Peas closed and didn't reorganize elsewhere. I learn so much from the others here that I may not learn elsewhere and/or I see a better firsthand experience than just reading about it. I completely agree. I've learned a great deal reading his thread. Thank you all!
|
|
|
Post by katieanna on Jul 13, 2014 18:56:05 GMT
Thank you to Lucy, I95 and others for this thread! I also struggle to understand the situation. Glad to have a little more knowledge today. Yes, Ladies, thank you so much for taking the time to share what we seldom, if ever, hear from the media. I'm bookmarking this thread!
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Jul 13, 2014 19:46:35 GMT
The Redemption of the Unwanted (Sachar) ^^^^Mollycoddle, try that. I think he's a retired history professor from Brandeis University. I read it years ago and it may be out of print now, but it's an amazing read.
|
|
janellk
New Member
Posts: 9
Jun 26, 2014 4:38:55 GMT
|
Post by janellk on Jul 13, 2014 20:00:11 GMT
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Jul 13, 2014 20:50:19 GMT
I find it interesting that most of the articles that I have seen have made it sound like this conflict is the fault of the Israelis. It is unbelievable.
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Jul 13, 2014 20:51:07 GMT
The Redemption of the Unwanted (Sachar) ^^^^Mollycoddle, try that. I think he's a retired history professor from Brandeis University. I read it years ago and it may be out of print now, but it's an amazing read. Thanks, Lucy!
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 13, 2014 21:45:37 GMT
Bingo. Meeko, you have hit upon the real problem. Their leaders. It makes me bonkers when I hear the oft-repeated refrain that the Israelis kicked the Palestinians out of their homeland. They. did. no. such. thing. In many cases they were living peacefully side-by-side with their Arab neighbors (not all Arabs were friendly, of course.) When the UN declared Israel to be a state (nation), it ticked off all the Arabs living in and around the region. As Imagine (I-95) said, they are tribal. The leaders told their people to leave their homes and follow them. They did. They abandoned their homes and land and followed their leaders out into the desert where they set up horrendous tent cities. Deplorable conditions. Of course their ranks swelled with the wars (oh, by the way, started by the Arabs.) But the leaders thought it made for good PR: "look world, what the Jews did to us, we are homeless and now our people are dying in these filthy, deplorable conditions." Thankfully, the UN knew better, but it has been 60 years (?) now and generations of Palestinians have grown up believing what they have been told. They are angry and they teach their children to be angry. Unfortunately, their anger isn't directed where it should be - at their own leaders and people. Israel actually provides a great deal of real and financial support to the Palestinians: more than half of their electricity and other infrastructure support, just about all (is that correct ladies?) food, medical aid, and so on come from Israel, the U.S., and European Nations, funneled through the U.N. But the people don't know that. Groups like Hamas hijack the food and medical trucks, slap their own labels on the boxes, and tell their people that they are the ones taking care of them. They start their hate-filled schools and tell their people that they are the ones caring for and educating their children. "Terrorists? Who, us? Why no, of course not, we're a benevolent group just trying to take care of our own." They get a ton of money from around the world, both from people who buy their schtick and from people who really know what's going on and are happy to support their terrorist activities. I second some of the reading suggestions here. I started reading Leon Uris books (Exodus, Mila 18, and then later The Haj, and so on) when I was about 12 (yeah, I was thinking about that last night) and he writes compelling stories with a factual historical background. Of course over the years, I've done a lot of other reading, but they are a good start and the history part is correct. When you have that background reading under your belt, I would add Son of Hamas: A Gripping Account of Terror, Betrayal, Political Intrigue, and Unthinkable Choices to your list. One thing he brings out in many places is the significant difference between the way the Israeli's treat human beings over their way. In the end you just feel sad for the everyday people.
|
|
craftchickapowpow
Full Member
My Circus My Monkeys
Posts: 206
Jun 26, 2014 16:12:18 GMT
|
Post by craftchickapowpow on Jul 13, 2014 22:27:57 GMT
I am going to politely bow out of this conversation because I don't want to anger anyone or hurt anyone's feelings. translation: because I just got my ass handed to me on a platter and because I don't know WTF a Zionist is.
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 14, 2014 0:25:34 GMT
I am straight up going to admit I am almost completely clueless when it comes to this situation. So, if someone has their patience panties on today, can you explain to me what is going on? Like you were explaining it to a teenager who had no idea of the history here? You might want to have a read of this link too meeko, to get another perspective of the whole conflict. www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.htmlThat site isn't going to get any better of a reception on page 3 of this thread than it got on page 1. Holy hell, that sounds like recycled Nazi propaganda.
|
|
|
Post by Skypea on Jul 14, 2014 0:54:39 GMT
"Israel might be able to survive without U.S. support, but I don't want to see it happen."
very good lucy. I don't know a whole lot about some of the newer old (??) reasons for it all. It goes back to Bible times (Isaac and Ishmael). It is land given to Abraham by God. What we know as Israel is a small slice of it. There is more prophecy in the bible regarding Israel's future. Many of the prophecies have already happened but there are more to come.
The US has been a blessed country and one of the reasons has been the support of the Jews/Israel. that goes back to a promise/warning from God that those who bless Israel He will bless and those that curse Israel will be cursed.
There is a lot in the Bible about coming wars involving Israel.
I don't know of any Christians who don't support Israel and the Jewish people. Jews fled Spain (to here) mega yrs ago after the k/q of Spain ruled they had to become Catholic or die. (Imagine that!)
There's a documentary that runs periodically on different church channels about the miracle of a Jewish war (maybe the 67-68 war?). I've watched it a few times in past yrs. Israel won by some very strange means.
prayers for those living in Israel and with family/friends there.
pay attention to what comes in the near future from Kerry/bo regarding Israel and their land. Israel should not give up even 1 sq inch of its land!!
ok, my fingers are 'typed' out for now.
|
|
|
Post by GamGam on Jul 14, 2014 1:06:05 GMT
For more background reading, I suggest the Lemon Tree. This began as a program segment on all things considered, and the response was so overwhelming that the dialog was expanded to the book format. There are no easy answers, but the conflict has deep roots that need to be understood. And understanding has many sides.
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 14, 2014 2:44:30 GMT
There is a lot to be said for one-on-one interaction. There is a camp called The Peace Camp Initiative where they bring young people from both Israel and Palestine together for a summer camp experience. They get acquainted with "the other side" and learn to trust one another in a neutral environment. I believe the camp is in Maine. Cool idea.
|
|
scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,307
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
|
Post by scrappinghappy on Jul 14, 2014 5:10:36 GMT
|
|
cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,387
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
|
Post by cycworker on Jul 14, 2014 5:46:02 GMT
I have a question and I don't mean it to be offensive. I hope it isn't... I'm genuinely trying to understand.
I've been open that my ancestry is Croatian. You'll notice I don't say Yugoslavian, even though through my formative years, Croatia was part of Yugoslavia. Now while my dad wasn't as bad as some Croatians re: the intensity of their dislike of Serbs, he definitely never supported the idea that they should all be one country. My Nana always believed - and my dad acknowledged a few times that she might have been right - that had the formation of the country of Yugoslavia happened as a result of 'negotiations' with the 5 territories/regions (Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro) in that way parents negotiate with with kids (I shall get you to agree to what I've already decide, and I shall do it in a way that allows you to think it was youridea) - they would've gotten along and the country would have stayed together forever. It was the idea of a larger power taking away their sense of self-determination that really caused the problem, because frankly, the people got along.
Is there no room for any blame/responsibility for the way the UN - esp. a UN that gave a lot of power to Great Britain, the very country that took Palestine as a colonial territory as part of its 'Empire,' - created Israel without giving Palestine a seat at the table that decided what was going to happen? I'm not saying let Palestine talk them out of it; I'm suggesting, again, negotiating, mediating, getting them on board, offering them carrots that would make it worth their while to say, 'We need to create an Israeli state! So glad we Palestinians thought of that and the rest of you are acknowledging what a brilliant idea we've come up with!'
|
|
|
Post by KiwiJo on Jul 14, 2014 6:48:53 GMT
If Israel is going to bomb a terrorist's home in Gaza, they CALL them first to warn everyone to get out of the house. WTH does that? In the last 5 minutes I have watched 8 rockets intercepted by the Iron Dome. Thank God for technology!! What an interesting thread!
I think that here in New Zealand we get both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian new broadcasts. We don't have large numbers of either Jewish or Arab people here, we are almost as far from the area as it is possible to be, and as a country, we are not really on either side.
Tonight's news broadcast was about the Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip. During the item, they said that the Israeli forces were dropping leaflets in the Gaza Strip advising people to leave, just as you said.
But the thing is, where could they go to? Our news talked about how lots of ex-pats are leaving, but so many of the Arabs have no way to leave Gaza. We saw some, all heading for a school where they hoped they would be safe.
As I said, we do tend to get news focusing on both sides, and tonight it was apparently Palestine's turn; but I just wondered what your view is on where the individual ordinary Palestinian family could go, even if they ARE warned?
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 14, 2014 7:02:29 GMT
That site isn't going to get any better of a reception on page 3 of this thread than it got on page 1. Holy hell, that sounds like recycled Nazi propaganda. I'm quoting myself because I did a little checking on Alison Weir, the owner of the website referenced above. I was right in what I said about it sounding like Nazi propaganda. She is indeed a well-known anti-Semite. She is also president of an organization that "disseminates anti-Israel propaganda to academics, politicians, and other audiences." It seems she also gives a big thumbs-up to the slaughter of innocents: A blog post I read from 2012 said she and her cohorts were trying to infiltrate the Tea Party. I hope they found out her true motives and kicked her ass back to her terrorist friends.
|
|
|
Post by Skypea on Jul 14, 2014 10:11:20 GMT
"Please be clear, Israel is not a weak and defenseless country who needs big brother to rush in and help."
oh that is for sure!! They have an awesome military. And our country could learn a lot from them on airport security (and probably otherwise) if they just would!
The US hurts itself more than Israel by pulling away from them. Still, I'm sure they'd like to know someone out here supports them. and that the US keeps its word. Under BO we are rapidly losing our 'friends'. Ukraine, Germany etc.
For those wanting to learn more - I watch a news show about Israel - and as now, I'm watching a show hosted by a Rabbi Lapin and his wife. He is talking tonight about Islamic stuff. This show is about ancient answers to modern day problems.
|
|