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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 10:13:05 GMT
That site isn't going to get any better of a reception on page 3 of this thread than it got on page 1. That wasn't the intention. I didn't notice the link on the post on page 1. I'll also add that all the pro Israel links and the advice to read a variety of " novels"on this thread isn't going to give anyone looking to further their knowledge of the conflict an understanding of both sides. Whether one agrees with one side or the other isn't relevant but linking one side of the debate isn't helpful for anyone in getting a clearer picture of the historical reasons that has led to what is going on there today. There is always two sides to any conflict. I like to read both! If it's any consolation I happen to think there's faults on both sides but from a purely humanitarian point of view I'll side with the Palestinians. As Jo said earlier " Where are they going to go".......Maybe the same way as what happened in the Deir Yassin massacre in 1948? Do the words of Menachem Begin at the time still stand today? quote....... "We created terror among the Arabs and all the villages around. In one blow, we changed the strategic situation." Yes, Israel have had their terrorist groups too namely Irgun and Stern Gang! There are innocent people being killed and far more on the Palestinian side than there is on the Israeli side. There has to be a better solution with some give and take on both sides.
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Post by elaine on Jul 14, 2014 11:26:24 GMT
That site isn't going to get any better of a reception on page 3 of this thread than it got on page 1. That wasn't the intention. I didn't notice the link on the post on page 1. I'll also add that all the pro Israel links and the advice to read a variety of " novels"on this thread isn't going to give anyone looking to further their knowledge of the conflict an understanding of both sides. Whether one agrees with one side or the other isn't relevant but linking one side of the debate isn't helpful for anyone in getting a clearer picture of the historical reasons that has led to what is going on there today. There is always two sides to any conflict. I like to read both! If it's any consolation I happen to think there's faults on both sides but from a purely humanitarian point of view I'll side with the Palestinians. As Jo said earlier " Where are they going to go".......Maybe the same way as what happened in the Deir Yassin massacre in 1948? Do the words of Menachem Begin at the time still stand today? quote....... "We created terror among the Arabs and all the villages around. In one blow, we changed the strategic situation." Yes, Israel have had their terrorist groups too namely Irgun and Stern Gang! There are innocent people being killed and far more on the Palestinian side than there is on the Israeli side. There has to be a better solution with some give and take on both sides. As I said earlier, all the surrounding countries confiscated a fair amount of property when they evicted the Jews after Israel was formed. Let those countries give that land to the Palestinians - that would give them a place to go. Jewish Refugees when Israel formed
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Post by I-95 on Jul 14, 2014 11:35:13 GMT
To a bomb shelter, down into the tunnels that they built to bring weapons in from Egypt. Keep in mind that the Israeli attacks carried out on terrorist's homes in the Gaza are very, very specific. They are blowing up one house, not dropping a bomb and wiping out a neighborhood. They do not target civilians, however, Hamas has been known to put civilians in houses that have been targeted so they can go into the bombed out mess and carry out a dead baby to parade before the cameras. They are also well known for photoshopping pics that turn up in newspapers all around the world. They have been busted for claiming that photos taken of victims in Syria were really people killed in Gaza by Israelis. It's very hard to believe anything they say.
As far as ordinary Palestinian families go...I feel for them too... but if they support their leadership, then they should look to that leadership to provide safe space for them while they're sending hundreds of rockets into Israel...aimed at civilian targets....but Hamas couldn't give a damn about the ordinary Palestinian family.
Have you ever wondered why they stay? I mean, look at the Syrians who are pouring into Turkey to get away from the crazies in that country, and the Turks are taking them in....but if the Palestinians try to flee to Jordan, or Egypt, they get refused entry....by Muslims and Arabs. There is no love lost between the Jordanians, the Syrians, the Lebanese, the Egyptians and the Palestinians.
As someone said a couple of pages back, when Israel turned the Gaza back to the Palestinians, EVERYBODY... The USA, The UK, Israel,and many other countries stood by with offers of help, both financial and physical, to help them get on their feet and build themselves a place to call home... but what did they do? They built tunnels to smuggle in weapons, they fired rockets at the country who gave them the opportunity to better themselves, and their leadership did NOTHING to help the average Palestinian. Gaza still gets their water, electricity, food and medicine courtesy of the Israeli government. It's REALLY hard to feel sorry for people who have been offered opportunity after opportunity to make a life for their people, and all they do is spit in the faces of those who make the offers.
Jews were given the land in what is now the State of Israel, via the British Mandate. Since their independence in 1948 they have taken a bunch of rocks and sand and built a country that has excellent Universities, great social programs, they have grown forests, desalinated sea water for farm irrigation, built cities, cultural centers, become a world leader in technology and medicine, and worked their asses off....what have the Palestinians done in the same 65 years to better the lives of the ordinary Palestinian family? N-O-T-H-I-N-G!
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Post by I-95 on Jul 14, 2014 11:47:05 GMT
Don't you suppose, that in the 65 years this conflict has been going on, that just about every possible solution hasn't been floated? The problem is that there are extreme factions on both sides who DO NOT WANT PEACE. As long as those groups are willing to disrupt every single negotiation that takes place, there never will be peace. There are many organizations in Israel who have dedicated themselves to working towards peaceful solutions....from groups of Palestinian and Israeli mothers who are sick of their kids being killed, to group who try to get the kids interacting with each other before they are old enough to become terrorists in training....but you also have families, both Muslim and Jews, who are raising their kids to hate each other. It's an impossible situation and personally, I don't see it ever being solved.
Do you have any great ideas that would help?
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Post by I-95 on Jul 14, 2014 12:16:34 GMT
I was quite shocked when I posted to FB that the bodies of the three West Bank Teens had been found, and hardly any of my well read, media savvy friends were even aware the kidnapping and murders had taken place. In retaliation for these murders a group of ultra Orthodox Jews kidnapped and murdered a Palestinian teenager...sending regular Israelis into total shock. The family of the murdered Palestinian boy visited the family of one of the murdered Jewish boys to sit shiva with them, and in turn Jews attended the funeral of the Palestinian child. With all these good feelings and outpouring of sympathy and love for one another, Hamas decided that they would avenge the death of the Palestinian child by rocketing Israeli cities and 'killing as many Jews as they could'
It was the perfect opportunity to hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but Hamas could not let that happen.
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Post by judy on Jul 14, 2014 13:09:10 GMT
I'm so grateful for this thread. I too am one who felt uneducated about this conflict. This thread has been very informative.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 13:18:04 GMT
Imagine747, thank you for sharing your perspective. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem and all Israel every day.
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Post by monklady123 on Jul 14, 2014 14:15:25 GMT
Imagine747, thanks for all your comments. It's such a sad situation all around. I visited Israel three years ago and it was such a wonderful experience. I put several prayers in the Wall, one that said "for the peace of Jerusalem". Not sure how/if that will ever happen. One of the disheartening things I learned while I was there, from our Jewish tour guide, is that there are ultra-religious Jews in Israel who basically don't agree that there should be an Israeli state at all, and who think all this conflict is because humankind tried to establish the country. Only God can do that. They believe that only when the Messiah comes will the state of Israel be legitimate. She said that these ultra-religious don't do anything to help Israel. I'm wondering how true that is? She is a "secular Jew" (her words) so I didn't know if her opinion was biased at all. Also, as an aside, totally off-topic -- when you went by I-95 I always assumed you lived somewhere here on the East Coast USA because that's the interstate that runs through Virginia near me. lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 14:16:58 GMT
Courtesy? I'm sorry but I don't happen to agree that one persons right to water should be granted by the courtesy of another. And according to a lot of varying aid agencies it's also restricted.
If they lifted the blockade into Gaza there might be more hope of them acquiring parts to repair their infrastructure,boost they economy and take care of themselves. They're quite capable of doing that if they are given the chance.
They're blocked by air sea and land. How are they suppose to survive......by dependency on another country that makes no secret of it's hostility towards them.
I don't agree with what Hamas or Israel is doing as far as the military attacks/rockets are concerned but the actions of Israel in so far as " controlling" everything, is going too far. There has to be some level of humanitarian responsibility in ones actions somewhere. Just my opinion!
This is another thing that's rather disturbing
link ......http://www.globalresearch.ca/justified-vengeance-the-pretext-for-bombing-gaza-was-the-netanyahu-government-behind-the-killings-of-the-three-israeli-teenagers/5391093
I don't know what the answer is but it's certainly not one sided!
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Post by lucyg on Jul 14, 2014 15:27:31 GMT
I am happy to report that the anti-Semitic Alison Weir is not the same Alison Weir as the British historian and novelist. In case anyone besides me was worried!
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Post by lucyg on Jul 14, 2014 15:36:12 GMT
"There has to be a better solution with some give and take on both sides." --dottyscrapper
Anyone who thinks that Israel hasn't given and given and then given some more is ignoring the facts. Can you please tell us what exactly the Palestinian Authority has given or even offered to give? Ever? They spit in the face of every Israeli offer of peace and have since 1948.
"Gaza still gets their water, electricity, food and medicine courtesy of the Israeli government. --- Courtesy? I'm sorry but I don't happen to agree that one persons right to water should be granted by the courtesy of another. And according to a lot of varying aid agencies it's also restricted.
If they lifted the blockade into Gaza there might be more hope of them acquiring parts to repair their infrastructure,boost they economy and take care of themselves. They're quite capable of doing that if they are given the chance.
They're blocked by air sea and land. How are they suppose to survive......by dependency on another country that makes no secret of it's hostility towards them."
Well, this explains a lot. If they'd stop trying (admittedly and openly) to push every Israeli into the sea, perhaps Israel would feel secure lifting the blockade.
I keep forgetting ... it's only Israel that's expected to act like an adult. Never the Palestinians.
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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 14, 2014 15:43:31 GMT
I am happy to report that the anti-Semitic Alison Weir is not the same Alison Weir as the British historian and novelist. In case anyone besides me was worried! You know, I am glad to hear it! I was kind of wondering, I have always heard such great things about her books.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Jul 14, 2014 15:52:44 GMT
Their thoughts/opinions? I find myself torn, admittedly biased by what the media is showing, on how I feel about this right now. I truly wish I understood this conflict to comment. I try to read articles, but don't know who to believe, as I am sure both sides spin it to look in theirfavor...
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Post by I-95 on Jul 14, 2014 15:58:57 GMT
Your secular tour guide was right. The ultra Orthodox do not do the peace process any favors. Her opinion is not biased, and 70% of Israelis identify themselves as secular. I still go by I-95 It's just when this site was set up it wouldn't let me sign up as I-95 so I had to choose some other name....and I do live on the East Coast...we are bi-Continental. I will be back in the US at the end of next month and will be there until January or Feb.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 16:04:19 GMT
You know what I don't like about this. If anyone dares to show any compassion towards the Palestinians they are labeled anti-Semite. That is just not cool. People are people and most are just innocents trying to survive. They all deserve a homeland and life.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 14, 2014 16:13:49 GMT
I'm sorry...courtesy means they don't PAY for any of the stuff that Israel GIVES them, while they are trying to KILL us!!
Do you have any idea what the blockade is for, and what it stops? I seriously doubt it. The blockade stops them from getting anything that could be used against Israel....like weapons, bombs, guns etc. It does NOT stop food, medicine, clothing, even building materials which we KNOW they use to build tunnels. So I'm not sure WTH you think they're being denied. They get everything they want to repair their infrastructure, they just don't use it for the good of their own people.
Why shouldn't Israel be hostile towards people who are trying to wipe them out? When the IRA was bombing London, did y'all sit there and say 'Wow, the poor Irish, we should really stop trying to control them and let them live however they want, even if that includes killing as many people in England as they can?' Somehow I don't think so.
What kind of 'humanitarian' responsibility are you looking for? Nobody in Gaza is starving, nobody is dying for lack of medical supplies. Israel just doesn't feel obligated to help Hamas kill Israelis by letting them have everything they want. I wouldn't want to live in Gaza either. That place is a pit...but it's a pit because the ONLY thing Hamas is interested in is killing Israelis. They are not interested in building a better life, or living peacefully, or anything else.
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Dani-Mani
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 28, 2014 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Dani-Mani on Jul 14, 2014 16:37:21 GMT
You know what I don't like about this. If anyone dares to show any compassion towards the Palestinians they are labeled anti-Semite. That is just not cool. People are people and most are just innocents trying to survive. They all deserve a homeland and life. I do agree with this, too.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 14, 2014 16:49:05 GMT
You know what I don't like about this. If anyone dares to show any compassion towards the Palestinians they are labeled anti-Semite. That is just not cool. People are people and most are just innocents trying to survive. They all deserve a homeland and life. Palestinians were offered a homeland right along with Israelis. They rejected it. They CHOSE to be refugees because they couldn't stomach living with a Jewish nation next door. They chose this life and they continue to pass this life on to their children through teaching them violence. Do I wish to see that change? Absolutely. Do I think it will ever be a reality? Nope. Palestinians won't settle for a piece of Israel or sharing Jerusalem. They will never be satisfied until Israel no longer exists and they train their children to believe this and elect leaders that work to wipe Israel off of the map. This makes having sympathy and compassion for Palestinians very difficult. For some people, it would be like showing compassion for Adolf Hitler who blamed Germany's problems on the Jews and wanted to wipe them off the face of the earth.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 14, 2014 16:50:04 GMT
You know what I don't like about this. If anyone dares to show any compassion towards the Palestinians they are labeled anti-Semite. That is just not cool. People are people and most are just innocents trying to survive. They all deserve a homeland and life. I do agree with this, too. I feel sorry for Palestinian civilians, because I believe that they are being used as pawns by Hamas. People may not realize that the reason that there have been few casualties in Israel is because Israel has a hi-tech missile defense system which is working very well. It isn't because Hamas is not trying.
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Post by rebelyelle on Jul 14, 2014 16:57:07 GMT
For some people, it would be like showing compassion for Adolf Hitler who blamed Germany's problems on the Jews and wanted to wipe them off the face of the earth. I think it's more like showing compassion for the German people under Hitler's reign - people who were lied to, manipulated and brainwashed into believing false "truths". I have compassion for the people of Palestine. I have compassion for the people of Israel as well.
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Post by elaine on Jul 14, 2014 17:02:06 GMT
I do agree with this, too. I feel sorry for Palestinian civilians, because I believe that they are being used as pawns by Hamas. People may not realize that the reason that there have been few casualties in Israel is because Israel has a hi-tech missile defense system which is working very well. It isn't because Hamas is not trying. Except that they chose to VOTE Hamas into power. Hamas was already well established as a terrorist group whose goal was and is the annihilation of Israel, when their candidates were voted into control of the Palestinian Parliament in 2006. The Palestinian civilians voted Hamas into power, so, not exactly pawns - and they got exactly what they voted for: a government that is more concerned with engaging in terrorist activity against Israel than taking care of its own citizens.
There was no government overthrow, no surprise change of party platform, this is what the Palestinian civilian majority voted for.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 14, 2014 17:09:56 GMT
I don' t think so either
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 17:11:51 GMT
I feel sorry for Palestinian civilians, because I believe that they are being used as pawns by Hamas. People may not realize that the reason that there have been few casualties in Israel is because Israel has a hi-tech missile defense system which is working very well. It isn't because Hamas is not trying. Except that they chose to VOTE Hamas into power. Hamas was already well established as a terrorist group whose goal was and is the annihilation of Israel, when their candidates were voted into control of the Palestinian Parliament in 2006. The Palestinian civilians voted Hamas into power, so, not exactly pawns - and they got exactly what they voted for: a government that is more concerned with engaging in terrorist activity against Israel than taking care of its own citizens.
There was no government overthrow, no surprise change of party platform, this is what the Palestinian civilian majority voted for. I'm sorry but the average Palestinian is beaten down, brainwashed and uneducated. I don't have much faith in the elections there being very fair. Not to mention Fatah wasn't much better to the average Palestinian. Now don't get me wrong. I think BOTH Israel and Palestine are worthy. But to me humans are humans and all are important. The whole thing is a huge clusterfuck and I sadly don't see anything changing ever.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 14, 2014 17:12:53 GMT
I feel sorry for Palestinian civilians, because I believe that they are being used as pawns by Hamas. People may not realize that the reason that there have been few casualties in Israel is because Israel has a hi-tech missile defense system which is working very well. It isn't because Hamas is not trying. Except that they chose to VOTE Hamas into power. Hamas was already well established as a terrorist group whose goal was and is the annihilation of Israel, when their candidates were voted into control of the Palestinian Parliament in 2006. The Palestinian civilians voted Hamas into power, so, not exactly pawns - and they got exactly what they voted for: a government that is more concerned with engaging in terrorist activity against Israel than taking care of its own citizens.
There was no government overthrow, no surprise change of party platform, this is what the Palestinian civilian majority voted for. Right- I was referring to Hamas keeping their rockets in highly populated areas and then using those tragic deaths and injuries as propaganda tools. They have swallowed Hamas's BS hook, line, and sinker. It's just so sad.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 17:13:06 GMT
First of all I never ever condone bombings, killings etc. so you are wrong there. But yes I do feel for the average everyday innocents on all sides of these things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 17:13:55 GMT
You might want to check a few facts before you start commenting on something that you obviously know nothing about first hand.
And with that there's no point in having a discussion because it's pretty obvious no one is allowed to have a different opinion in this debate. Shalom.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 14, 2014 17:16:02 GMT
I think it's more like showing compassion for the German people under Hitler's reign - people who were lied to, manipulated and brainwashed into believing false "truths". I have compassion for the people of Palestine. I have compassion for the people of Israel as well. You're comparison does make sense and I feel the same way. I was simply trying to explain how some people have a very difficult time accepting compassion for Palestinians who chose their situation, then blame Israel for their troubles, and elect leaders who perpetuate the lies and and brainwashing. The term "compassion", to some people, implies they are justified in their actions, or that they should be given support for their cause. That isn't what having compassion necessarily entails, but I think this is why many people struggle to feel "compassion" for one side or the other. They can't justify or support the actions of the other side.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 14, 2014 17:16:58 GMT
You know what I don't like about this. If anyone dares to show any compassion towards the Palestinians they are labeled anti-Semite. That is just not cool. People are people and most are just innocents trying to survive. They all deserve a homeland and life. Has anyone on this thread accused anyone else of being anti-Semitic? I don't think I have, nor do I remember anyone else doing that. I'm actually quite critical of a lot of things Israel does....right up until Hamas, or Hezbollah starts throwing rockets in my direction. I agree that the Palestinians deserve a place to call their own....it's too bad their leaders don't feel the same way.
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Post by KiwiJo on Jul 14, 2014 17:17:24 GMT
I-95 - thank you for the way you are responding to the questions and comments in this thread. I really appreciate that you are explaining things to us with calmness and fairness, and without resorting to knee-jerk reactions.
I appreciated your acknowledgement that there are extremists on both sides, and also your compassion for the 'ordinary' Palestinian. It is things like that, that show you really are wanting to explain about what is going on, to those of us with very little knowledge about the situation.
It's very easy for us to read about more than 100 Palestinian deaths from Israeli air strikes in the past week; but equally easy for us to forget that without the Iron Dome protection, there would be huge numbers of Israeli deaths too.
You have encouraged me to do a lot of reading about the situation, rather than just base my opinion on what I see and read in the daily news. Thank you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 17:17:57 GMT
You know what I don't like about this. If anyone dares to show any compassion towards the Palestinians they are labeled anti-Semite. That is just not cool. People are people and most are just innocents trying to survive. They all deserve a homeland and life. Has anyone on this thread accused anyone else of being anti-Semitic? I don't think I have, nor do I remember anyone else doing that. I'm actually quite critical of a lot of things Israel does....right up until Hamas, or Hezbollah starts throwing rockets in my direction. I agree that the Palestinians deserve a place to call their own....it's too bad their leaders don't feel the same way. Yes it has been thrown around on this thread and in threads in the past.
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