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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 28, 2014 22:57:08 GMT
ROTFLMAO!!! Y'know, I spent more than an hour scrolling through your posts trying to find that damn video!! It doesn't help that it's almost 2am here and I've been up for 20 hours! With regard to the letter...look for one from other set of doctors in the next few days. Israeli doctors who treat Gaza patients are going mental over that letter. They are also outraged that the Lancet was the place it was published. Please link when it is published. I would like to read a counter to the Lancet piece.
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Post by claudia123 on Jul 28, 2014 23:02:27 GMT
''Jewish Voice for Peace members are inspired by Jewish tradition to work together for peace, social justice, equality, human rights, respect for international law, and a U.S. foreign policy based on these ideals.
JVP opposes anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim, and anti-Arab bigotry and oppression. JVP seeks an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem; security and self-determination for Israelis and Palestinians; a just solution for Palestinian refugees based on principles established in international law; an end to violence against civilians; and peace and justice for all peoples of the Middle East.
A: Jews have a special role to play in bringing about a change in American and Israeli policy. Israel claims to be acting in the name of the Jewish people, and it is up to us to make sure the world knows that many of us are opposed to their actions. More importantly, as long as even legitimate criticism of Israel is blocked by accusations of anti-Semitism, it is the responsibility of Jews to stand up for universal justice.''
direct quotes from another very interesting organization I found called Jewish voice for peace, I recommend everyone takes a look at their website. this shows many, many jewish people are against the israli occupation of previous Palestinian land and realize this war is much more than Israel being right and Palestine being wrong.
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scrappammie
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Jun 25, 2014 21:31:40 GMT
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Post by scrappammie on Jul 28, 2014 23:04:46 GMT
Dottyscrapper said:
"If that is how they see things I'm not going to dismiss they're(sic) opinions..."
Dotty, I think all a few people are asking you to do is recognize exactly that - the letter is an opinion piece. It's okay if you agree with it, disagree, whatever. However, I'm sure you'll agree that opinions are not necessarily fact.
Frankly, I've stayed out of this discussion because other posters have done an excellent job of voicing my thoughts. And, I think whether or not the information from the media is biased or not is irrelevant to the situation. I'm hoping that everyone uses more than one source to get news and considers more than one viewpoint before fashioning their own opinions.
But I am curious, and will echo I-95, what is it that you believe Israel should do? We've all agreed it is terrible that civilians are caught within the conflict. Is it the fault of Israel that Hamas has not taken steps to provide shelter for the people prior to launching rockets? Does Israel have to agree to let a certain number of rockets land for it to be an equitable crisis? It's not for lack of trying that there aren't more Israeli casualties.
Again, what should Israel do?
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Post by claudia123 on Jul 28, 2014 23:19:21 GMT
scrapammie, in response to what should Israel do I recommend you take a look at this site run by Jewish people: mondoweiss.net/2014/07/jews-apartheid-israel.htmlThe main things these JEWISH people want to see happen are : To confront the root cause of this violence, we call for the complete dismantling of Israel’s apartheid regime, throughout historic Palestine — from the River to the Sea. With that in mind, we embrace the 2005 Palestinian call for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign, which demands: * An end to Israeli military occupation of the 1967 territories * Full equality for Palestinian citizens of Israel * Right of return for Palestinian refugees, as affirmed by UN resolution 194
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Post by I-95 on Jul 28, 2014 23:31:23 GMT
There was not "always" Jews in Palestine. Over 25 years from 1922 to 1947 the Jewish population went from having 3 percent to 77 percent of Palestinian land. The original Arabs were forced from there homes and treated like criminals and were offered back a tiny part of the land they had originally had, which was seen by many as a slap in the face. And although it is not justificafion for the acts of hamas, if the us had land taken and many of its citizens left under harsh military control would you be happy to sit back and think oh well let's not retaliate? I think not. The Palestinians have gone about this conflict in completely the wrong way and he's I concur there will probably now never be peace however the way people on this thread act is as if Israel have no fault in this war. That is simply not the case. In the past (most notably the Arab Israeli conflict) Israel did indeed wage war on Palestine, for example capturing villages that were Arab occupied and are somehow now shocked there is retaliation? Ummm, Yes, there were always Jews in this region. Always. There has never been a country called Palestine. There has been a region called Palestine. Palestine originally covered a huge area. The region has been controlled throughout history by the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Muslims, Crusaders, Persians, Ottermans, and the British. It has been called a variety of names, but let's skip a few thousand years and get back to the British. They got control of the region during the first world war. In 1917 they issued the Balfour Declaration, agreeing to support a Jewish homeland in the region. Which is where you see an increase in the Jewish population. I'm not sure where you got the number that the Jewish population went from owning 3% of the land to 77% of it. That's, I think, impossible..... Anyway, around that time the region, which included what is now Syria and Jordan, changed from Otterman rule to British and French. They split the region with France getting what is now known as Syria, Jordan was given to the Hashemite Family. The region commonly referred to as Palestine, went to the British. The Arabs weren't happy and started a war with the Brits....the Brits won. In 1947 the British decided to leave the region and split it in 2, giving half to the Arabs and half to the Jews. The Arabs objected to that and several hundred thousand of them abandoned their villages and left the region. The Jews fleeing Post war Europe moved into the land.... the land the were GIVEN by the British and declared independence in 1948. The Arab Nations immediately declared war and attacked, believing they would annihilate the Jews and take back the entire country. They got their asses kicked and instead Israel took the land, murdered and evicted another 26,000 or so, and that's the Reader's Digest version... Yes...Israel has a lot to be ashamed of, just as America has with its murder of Native Americans and seizing of their land. Britain has much to be ashamed of with their colonization of half the world, and their slaughtering of the indigenous peoples and the taking of their land. Canada has a few things to explain with their treatment of the native population there. Australians should hang their heads over the way the Aboriginals were dealt with, and so on and so on and so on. Israel is not innocent, but it has grown up some, just as all the other countries did....but if you think I'm giving back my million dollar beach front apartment in Tel Aviv, you can think again! It's so not going to happen. The problem is the land is gone, most of it was lost to Israel in wars, and you don't have to give back what was taken in a war. The Palestinians have been offered land and have refused it. What they want is all the land and the Israelis gone (I say Israelis because not all Israelis are Jews, but the Palestinians want the Christians gone, the Druze gone, they want a Muslim state) and that's not going to happen. I don't know what the answer is, and neither does anyone else...Damn, there go the sirens, I'll be right back....I hope) OK, back, but now i have to go to bed...
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 28, 2014 23:31:31 GMT
scrapammie, in response to what should Israel do I recommend you take a look at this site run by Jewish people: mondoweiss.net/2014/07/jews-apartheid-israel.htmlThe main things these JEWISH people want to see happen are : To confront the root cause of this violence, we call for the complete dismantling of Israel’s apartheid regime, throughout historic Palestine — from the River to the Sea. With that in mind, we embrace the 2005 Palestinian call for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign, which demands: * An end to Israeli military occupation of the 1967 territories * Full equality for Palestinian citizens of Israel * Right of return for Palestinian refugees, as affirmed by UN resolution 194 Claudia, I looked at that site, and interestingly enough, I didn't see any requirements or expectations for Hamas. Treating a terrorist organization like a bunch of naughty children who just can't help firing rockets or building tunnels to abduct and /or murder Jews just won't cut it. The people who run Hamas(from Qatar) are grown-ass men. Somehow, somewhere, the world must have some expectations of them.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 28, 2014 23:38:45 GMT
There was not "always" Jews in Palestine. Over 25 years from 1922 to 1947 the Jewish population went from having 3 percent to 77 percent of Palestinian land. The original Arabs were forced from there homes and treated like criminals and were offered back a tiny part of the land they had originally had, which was seen by many as a slap in the face. And although it is not justificafion for the acts of hamas, if the us had land taken and many of its citizens left under harsh military control would you be happy to sit back and think oh well let's not retaliate? I think not. The Palestinians have gone about this conflict in completely the wrong way and he's I concur there will probably now never be peace however the way people on this thread act is as if Israel have no fault in this war. That is simply not the case. In the past (most notably the Arab Israeli conflict) Israel did indeed wage war on Palestine, for example capturing villages that were Arab occupied and are somehow now shocked there is retaliation? This is a good website showing that many Jews realise this conflict has two side jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101Yes, there have always been Jews living in Palestine, at least for the past several thousand years. Where did you get the idea that there haven't been? Here is a link for you: Wikipedia - history of Jews in Judea/Palestine/Israel
I don't know anything about your statistics (from 3% to 77% of land ownership during the years specified) ... I don't find the numbers particularly credible but maybe they are correct. Is there a source? What I can tell you, though, is that the Jews bought all of their land from the Arabs. They didn't just come in and seize it. ETA I am speaking here specifically of the years before the establishment of the state of Israel, which is the time frame brought up by Claudia. There were lands seized in war in the following years. Again ... the Palestinians were given the opportunity to have a homeland of their own without Jewish interference. They turned it down and chose war instead. They are still, unfortunately, choosing war. -- A constant state of war isn't good for anyone. As has been repeated many times in this thread, if the Arabs laid down their weapons today, there would be no more war. If the Jews laid down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 28, 2014 23:49:36 GMT
scrapammie, in response to what should Israel do I recommend you take a look at this site run by Jewish people: mondoweiss.net/2014/07/jews-apartheid-israel.htmlThe main things these JEWISH people want to see happen are : To confront the root cause of this violence, we call for the complete dismantling of Israel’s apartheid regime, throughout historic Palestine — from the River to the Sea. With that in mind, we embrace the 2005 Palestinian call for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign, which demands: * An end to Israeli military occupation of the 1967 territories * Full equality for Palestinian citizens of Israel * Right of return for Palestinian refugees, as affirmed by UN resolution 194 Even Jews can be wrong. Seriously. Just because there are some fringe Jews siding against Israel, doesn't mean I have to say, oh wow! y'know what, they're right! I.do.not.agree.with.most.of.their.stance. I know the history of the region and I don't agree with them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 23:56:02 GMT
Dottyscrapper said: "If that is how they see things I'm not going to dismiss they're(sic) opinions..." Dotty, I think all a few people are asking you to do is recognize exactly that - the letter is an opinion piece. It's okay if you agree with it, disagree, whatever. However, I'm sure you'll agree that opinions are not necessarily fact.Bold is mine - That needs to be remembered by both sides on this thread though don't you agree?Frankly, I've stayed out of this discussion because other posters have done an excellent job of voicing my thoughts. And, I think whether or not the information from the media is biased or not is irrelevant to the situation. I'm hoping that everyone uses more than one source to get news and considers more than one viewpoint before fashioning their own opinions.Some of us do source reports from both sides but whatever is quoted or linked that doesn't agree with the opinions of others is dismissed out of hand as being anti Israeli or Palestinian propaganda carried out by the European press and their reporters or anyone else that happens to report differently to a pro Israeli view. All of this because we happened to show some humanity towards the innocent victims that are suffering because of this war.It's been confirmed by others that we (as in UK) do have balanced reporting and an example was given.But I am curious, and will echo I-95, what is it that you believe Israel should do? We've all agreed it is terrible that civilians are caught within the conflict. Is it the fault of Israel that Hamas has not taken steps to provide shelter for the people prior to launching rockets? Does Israel have to agree to let a certain number of rockets land for it to be an equitable crisis? It's not for lack of trying that there aren't more Israeli casualties. Again, what should Israel do?I might have to consult this document before answering that. A document I found whilst checking on the meaning of hasbara mentioned in the link to the Guardian article a few posts back! Makes interesting reading even if it wasn't meant to be leaked to the general public. Seriously, I'm only concerned about stopping the killing of innocent people at this point. It's up to others to bring this to a peaceful conclusion and the sooner the better. My apologies for the wrong "their" BTW!
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Post by claudia123 on Jul 29, 2014 0:09:54 GMT
Lucy I'd hardly say they were "offered a homeland of their own", instead their homeland was spilt in two by foreign embassies and they were then offered back less than half with the majority going to the minority group of recent Jewish immigrants,despite the fact they had a much smaller population. Not exactly a fair deal. And since this time all 22 arab nations have agreed to occupying just 22 percent of the original Palestinian land, in the Arab peace initiative. Israel have rejected this plan.
Also I think it is ignorant to claim it is only a fringe group of Jews who are against israel. Almost all Orthodox and ultra orthodox Jewish people are anti Zionist.
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scrappammie
Junior Member
Posts: 78
Jun 25, 2014 21:31:40 GMT
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Post by scrappammie on Jul 29, 2014 0:56:40 GMT
I'll take that under advisement. And Dotty... Thanks for responding. And even though I personally think Frank Lutz is a putz, I'm going to read the IP document. I agree it should be interesting reading - although I hope it's not just prepared fundraiser talking points, since that puts us right back to the bias/no bias question. I hope, too, that some sort of truce can be negotiated to avoid further casualties on either side - but I might be more hopeful if the guiding tenant of one of the principle parties wasn't the eradication of the other.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 29, 2014 1:15:21 GMT
I'll take that under advisement. And Dotty... Thanks for responding. And even though I personally think Frank Lutz is a putz, I'm going to read the IP document. I agree it should be interesting reading - although I hope it's not just prepared fundraiser talking points, since that puts us right back to the bias/no bias question. I hope, too, that some sort of truce can be negotiated to avoid further casualties on either side - but I might be more hopeful if the guiding tenant of one of the principle parties wasn't the eradication of the other. He is a putz, isn't he??? IMO, it looks as if Luntz is doing for the Israelis what he does for Fox and the Republicans. Meh. We hear this same stuff during every election cycle. I'll say this; Luntz is good at what he does. I wish that the Democrats had a Luntz, lol.
He's right in what he says. Israel does make mistakes. I'm personally not a fan of Netanyahu, though I do realize that with the cabinet that he has, he is in a difficult position. I'll be curious to see what the other Americans think of Luntz's work!
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Post by claudia123 on Jul 29, 2014 1:17:49 GMT
This is why this discussion will not go anywhere. I answered your question scrappammie and instead of giving a respectful argument about how you disagree with me (which I have no problem with!)you respond with only a sarcastic comment.
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scrappammie
Junior Member
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Jun 25, 2014 21:31:40 GMT
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Post by scrappammie on Jul 29, 2014 1:34:00 GMT
This is why this discussion will not go anywhere. I answered your question scrappammie and instead of giving a respectful argument about how you disagree with me (which I have no problem with!)you respond with only a sarcastic comment. Claudia. I took a look at your link. Believe me when I tell you that was (by far) the most polite response I could think to give. Many others came to mind. Also, I'll point out that in my post I wasn't asking for your recommendation on what Israel should do, I was inquiring as to what Dottyscrapper thought should be done. I believe I even began the post after quoting her with her name alone. But, thank you for your input. Respectful enough?
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 29, 2014 2:38:21 GMT
How about this then Lucy www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/26/israel-palestine-context-of-war-israeli-viewAnd yes I am totally against the way hamas rmare reacting, however it is completely ignoring history to blame Palestine alone for this war. The horrendous actions of a terrorist group today does not replace the fact that Muslims were removed from Palestine unfairly decades ago and treated like criminals by the Jewish. This is not a one sided conflict. So wait... back up. BEFORE Muslims lived there, the area was built up and settled by JEWS. Ever heard of the man Abraham? You know of King David? And Solomon? Yeah. The story goes WAY back than simply "the last hundred years". AND- there has never ever ever been a sovereign nation called Palestine ruled by Palestinians. It was NEVER "their land". They always lived amidst Jews. The Jews were kicked out by the Romans (whatever ones were still alive after Jerusalem was ransacked, their sacred temple (built by King Solomon) torn apart, and many Jews and Christians murdered). Later the region was controlled by the Turks under the Ottoman Empire. That lasted until the Ottoman Empire was broken up after WWI and the region became a mandate of Britain. Britain controlled the area. Arabs and Jews lived in the region all throughout that era. Jews were expelled repeatedly and had nowhere to go. They were refugees scattered. During WWII, Britain encouraged the Zionists to return to Jerusalem- Much of that was because no other Western nation was really willing to absorb the refugee population of Jews fleeing Hitler for their lives. After WWII, and the revelations of the full impact of the Holocaust, it was determined the Jews needed a state of their own. But then what to do about the Palestinians who also lived there? The British Mandate of Palestine was divided and both people were offered a state of their own. For the Jews, it would return land to them that had been forcibly and violently taken from them centuries before. For the Palestinians, it would provide them with their own sovereign state for the very first time ever. The Jews accepted and Israel was (re)born. Palestinians rejected it and became refugees. The creation of Israel allowed hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees to come to a homeland. The Palestinians chose refugee status. If this is simply about returning land to the people who were there first, your sources are going to have to go back much further than simply "the last hundred years".
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Post by I-95 on Jul 29, 2014 3:29:53 GMT
Claudia...did you actually expect any pro-Israeli person to have a respectful discussion over the article you linked? I cannot deal with any article, or conversation, that uses words like massacre, genocide, ethnic cleansing, brutal war on Palestinians etc etc etc. Those are words that designed to end a conversation, not start one.
Out of that list of 200 people who signed the letter, and they have some awesome credentials, fewer than 5% actually live in Israel. It's so easy for people who live in California, or Canada, or Europe, and have strong opinions on what should be done in a country far, far away. Look at how the Brits reacted when some of us suggested their press coverage was biased. They positively bristled and basically said that since we didn't see their regular nightly news, or read their daily papers, then we were uninformed and our opinions should be discounted. That's fair. Dottyscrapper said 'It's been confirmed by others that we (as in UK) do have balanced reporting and an example was given.' She's right, other Brits did confirmed that the UK has fair and balanced reporting. So it's OK for y'all to agree that those of us who do not live in the UK are not qualified to judge the quality of news reports played to the UK market...alright, then it's not OK for people who don't live in Israel to judge what happens here either. You don't have boots on the ground here and neither do the vast majority of people who signed that article.
You do know that there are a lot of people, Jews, living in Israel and the Diaspora, who are Anti-Zionist right? And you do know what Anti-Zionists are, right? I can't speak to every single person on that list of 200, but I recognize a lot of the names, and I personally know a couple of them, and they are strong Anti-Zionists. Most ultra religious Jews are Anti-Zionists, and they don't think the State of Israel should exists any more than the extremist Palestinians do. Both groups agree that Israel should not exist. That does not solve the problem of what to do here. These are the very people who hinder the peace process, and if Israel never has peace, it will be because of groups like the one you linked.
If it were possible to shut the extremists up, there would be a good chance of peace here. Most regular Israelis, myself included, and most regular Palestinians could come up with a peace agreement in a week and we could all get on with our lives. Most regular Palestinians don't want half the country, they want a place where they can live, work and raise their kids. They're not so stupid as to think that Israelis, who have owned property they bought and paid for, are going to give it back to people who weren't even born when this mess started. Israelis have worked their asses off to build this country...as a Nation and personally. They are not going to walk away from the Promised Land. Not now, not ever. But they are willing to give up territory in exchange for peace. The problem is the extremists on both sides, they not willing to do that...Did you read the 'demands' Hamas made in order to stop the rocket attacks? Puh-leese!! They don't want peace. The long term problem is both Jewish and Palestinian extremists are raising their children to be just as hard assed and hateful as they are, and some of them are in the Knesset!
In order to even talk about a peace agreement there has to be reasonable and rational minds at work. Those who make blanket statements about genocide and slaughter, massacres and murder, absolutely lose the crowd. It's insulting to the average Israeli, because we live here, we work here, and yes, we know better than you do what happens here. You also have to factor in a few things that none of you has mentioned, probably because you don't know they exist...but does anyone care what the Druzim think, or the Arab Christians, or the Catholics, or the other Christians who live here, own property, pay taxes and vote. Do you know what the Arab Muslims who are Israeli citizens think? Those would be the Palestinians who did not flee the country, or choose to ally themselves with the Palestinians who oppose Israel. There are villages all throughout Israel where Arab Muslims have lived for centuries, in peace, right next to Israeli Jewish towns and villages. Where I live in the Northern Galilee, on one side we have a Druze village and on the other we have an Arab Muslim village...and guess what? We all get along just fine. This is a complicated country, and there's no easy fix.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 29, 2014 3:42:13 GMT
Lucy I'd hardly say they were "offered a homeland of their own", instead their homeland was spilt in two by foreign embassies and they were then offered back less than half with the majority going to the minority group of recent Jewish immigrants,despite the fact they had a much smaller population. Not exactly a fair deal. And since this time all 22 arab nations have agreed to occupying just 22 percent of the original Palestinian land, in the Arab peace initiative. Israel have rejected this plan. Also I think it is ignorant to claim it is only a fringe group of Jews who are against israel. Almost all Orthodox and ultra orthodox Jewish people are anti Zionist. oh dear. Let's talk about ignorance. If you're bringing up ultra Orthodox opposition to Zionism, I think you probably need a better understanding of the many different variations of Jews. Regular Orthodox Jews are not generally opposed to Zionism. The ultra Orthodox anti-Zionists couldn't care less about the plight of the Palestinians. They are against anyone besides themselves going to the Holy Land because they think they are the only deserving ones. They're the type that murdered that poor Palestinian boy in revenge after the three Jewish boys were killed by Hamas. I assure you, you don't want to align yourself with their beliefs. *shudder* As far as Israel rejecting a peace initiative, could it be because the Palestinians want all of Jerusalem to themselves? You know if they ever got it, they would outlaw Jews AND Christians from the city, right?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 7:10:48 GMT
Katycupcake - WHERE do you get your history info from. Britain did no such thing! Encourage? Read the legislation that was issued after the Arab revolt in Palestine between 1936- 39. Jeez if you are going to comment get your facts and historical records straight!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 7:22:56 GMT
Totally OT question but is there a huge difference between Ultra Orthodox Jews and Chassids? I was just wondering? What can't UOJ's not do that other Jews can?
/OT and my apologies. I had an honest question. Thanks.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 29, 2014 8:18:46 GMT
Totally OT question but is there a huge difference between Ultra Orthodox Jews and Chassids? I was just wondering? What can't UOJ's not do that other Jews can? /OT and my apologies. I had an honest question. Thanks. Ultra Orthodox are Hasidic Jews, as are Haredim, as are about 6 more offshoots of the Ultra Orthodox movement. As for what the UOJs can not do that other Jews can....call your local Synagogue and sign up for an introductory course in Judaism. The course will run for about 6 months and will still barely touch on the differences, they are vast and many. If you call an UO synagogue...well, never mind, they probably wouldn't talk to you anyway, you're a woman and a non Jew, but if you threw yourself on the floor and begged, you'd be looking at a minimum of two years of your life to understand their ways...and they wouldn't even tell you about movements like Conservative and Reform because according to them, they aren't even Jews. The Chief Rabbi in Israel, was asked whether it would be better for a secular Jew who happened to be away from home on Rosh Hashana to pray with a Reform congregation or by himself in a hotel, He responded 'it would be preferable to pray by himself. More than this, its preferable not to pray at all than to pray with them'. Yep, put those Reform Jews in their place!
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Post by I-95 on Jul 29, 2014 8:20:10 GMT
Jeez, could you try being nice?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 10:11:32 GMT
Totally OT question but is there a huge difference between Ultra Orthodox Jews and Chassids? I was just wondering? What can't UOJ's not do that other Jews can? /OT and my apologies. I had an honest question. Thanks. Ultra Orthodox are Hasidic Jews, as are Haredim, as are about 6 more offshoots of the Ultra Orthodox movement. As for what the UOJs can not do that other Jews can....call your local Synagogue and sign up for an introductory course in Judaism. The course will run for about 6 months and will still barely touch on the differences, they are vast and many. If you call an UO synagogue...well, never mind, they probably wouldn't talk to you anyway, you're a woman and a non Jew, but if you threw yourself on the floor and begged, you'd be looking at a minimum of two years of your life to understand their ways...and they wouldn't even tell you about movements like Conservative and Reform because according to them, they aren't even Jews. The Chief Rabbi in Israel, was asked whether it would be better for a secular Jew who happened to be away from home on Rosh Hashana to pray with a Reform congregation or by himself in a hotel, He responded 'it would be preferable to pray by himself. More than this, its preferable not to pray at all than to pray with them'. Yep, put those Reform Jews in their place! Thank you I-95. When I see the guys in black hats with the curls, I should not assume they are Hasidic Jews then? They could be another sect of Ultra Orthodox? Interesting and thank you. I have heard, and don't quote me as I heard this from a Reform Jew himself, they are Jewish just for the sake of calling themselves Jews. Whatever that means. I attended a service one Friday night. They are pretty liberal. I can see why a lot of Conservative Jews don't like them. The doctor I spoke to is married to a woman who was a Jew and she even felt too confined in the Reform Judaism movement! Then I asked him, if she was born to a Jewish mother (which she was) she is still Jewish right? He said technically yes. It was an interesting conversation!
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Post by I-95 on Jul 29, 2014 11:14:43 GMT
The guys with the black hats and curls could be any of those sects.
If Reform is too confining she should try Reconstructionism....even more liberal than Reform. Conservative Jews are not necessarily conservative, and they don't dislike Reform Jews, they don't even mind Modern Orthodox, or Orthodox Jews, but the Ultras dislike everyone who isn't one of them. Well, not all of them, but the more religious they are, the less tolerance they have for anyone who doesn't think like them. This is a group of people who have huge families too, so while the other members of Jewish movements are having the standard 2.3 children, the Ultras are popping out 9 or 10. This is bad news for Israel because, as previously noted, they are anti-Zionists. In another couple of generations they will be the majority in Israel and then the Palestinians will have zero chance of a two State settlement, or any kind of settlement. These people would kick the regular Jews out too, if they could, in order to purify the land for the arrival of the Messiah. They are as extreme as the most extreme Muslims. These are the people who will do whatever they can to stop the peace process, including war, political pressure (the have a huge influence over the Knesset and many of them are members of the Knesset) If you want to see the influence these people have in Israel, wait until there's something they don't want to have happen. The Rabbis will click their fingers and 50,000 people will show up to demonstrate. If it's a women's issue, they will empty the girls' schools and bus them to Jerusalem to demonstrate. They have no problem throwing rocks at policemen, or anyone who opposes them. they are freaking nutcases, and what's more they don't care, they think G-d is on their side. Oh, and most of them don't work, the Government (read taxpayers) pays them to study the Torah. They also do not have to serve in the army....and they are tolerated, but not well liked by the general population...but they don't care.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 11:43:47 GMT
Israel is a strange bird for sure. It's kind of a melting pot for Jews of all sects. Would you mind if I asked which you believe it. Please do not be offended and if you choose not to answer that is perfectly fine and I understand Do you feel safe being there right now? Do you find it easier to live there as a Jew? I.e. you go to the market and everything under the sun is kosher. (if you go to a kosher supermarket). You don't have to worry about contamination with pork products. The fruit and vegetables are fresher and better there. Dates and figs are to die for. Etc? I would think it is a place of peace for Jews even if there is a war going on. No?
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Post by I-95 on Jul 29, 2014 13:16:45 GMT
Israel is a strange bird for sure. It's kind of a melting pot for Jews of all sects. Would you mind if I asked which you believe it. Please do not be offended and if you choose not to answer that is perfectly fine and I understand Do you feel safe being there right now? Do you find it easier to live there as a Jew? I.e. you go to the market and everything under the sun is kosher. (if you go to a kosher supermarket). You don't have to worry about contamination with pork products. The fruit and vegetables are fresher and better there. Dates and figs are to die for. Etc? I would think it is a place of peace for Jews even if there is a war going on. No? lol. I don't mind telling you at all. I'm a Catholic DH is a Conservative Jew, but he's secular....which means he's a Zionist!! Most of the supermarkets around here are Kosher, but in the Christian villages they aren't, so if you're dying for a ham sandwich you can always find one. We have Kosher McDonald's and non-Kosher ones too. I'm a Californian so I think the fruits and vegetables are better in the US. I still get crazed when I can't get strawberries here year 'round. I don't like figs so I couldn't tell you how they are here, but the dates are excellent, as are the olives. At the moment it's not a place of peace for anyone. It's hard to be Zen about stuff when helicopters are flying overhead and sirens are going off, but Israelis are somewhat fatalistic, they shrug their shoulders and and say 'this is Israel what did you expect'. The kids learn odd little things like the difference between the sound of thunder, a sonic bomb as the Air Forces goes over and the sound of a bomb exploding....but do we feel safe? Yes, however we're cautious. It would be stupid not to be.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 12:31:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 13:23:14 GMT
Ok another ignorant question but how do you deal with the summer heat? I mean it's in the Middle East right? Do you have a/c and if you do what happens when you go to the market or to get coffee/tea to drink or walk to your neighbour's house. Do you get a blast of hot air in your face? You say you are a California girl which is nice as it's warm there but to me from what I have heard Middle East heat is HOT. I have a fan blowing on me right now and it's probably only 13 degrees in my room.
I think it would be wonderful if we all (Christians, Jews and Muslims) could go to pray in the Holy Land together without the fear of violence or destruction. To me "It's the Holy Land" for goodness sake. It's HOLY. Leave it alone!!!j
In Japan you would never see a Buddhist temple being bombed. That just doesn't happen. Why here? Oh right go back 5000 years and read up on it...one day maybe.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 29, 2014 13:52:11 GMT
I'm way back on page 17, but I just want to give an example of what has been wrong with a lot of the coverage.
I was listening to CNN yesterday. I couldn't see it, I could just hear it. A hospital in Gaza had been hit and the reporter on the scene was pretty adamant that Israel was at fault. There was another person on that was calling this a war crime. The main newscaster was more neutral.
Later in the day, I watched FOX, and for the first time I heard that there was at least a chance - a VERY good chance - that the hospital was hit by a misfired Palestinian rocket.
This is the way this entire thread, up to where I've caught up to, has read to me.
Here is where I'd like to insert that graphic from the IDF of Israelis using weapons to protect civilians secured in safe areas alongside the Palestinians with civilians on rooftops protecting weapons and follow that graphic up with one of the wounded Palestinian children.
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Post by DinCA on Jul 29, 2014 14:04:52 GMT
There was not "always" Jews in Palestine. Over 25 years from 1922 to 1947 the Jewish population went from having 3 percent to 77 percent of Palestinian land. The original Arabs were forced from there homes and treated like criminals and were offered back a tiny part of the land they had originally had, which was seen by many as a slap in the face. And although it is not justificafion for the acts of hamas, if the us had land taken and many of its citizens left under harsh military control would you be happy to sit back and think oh well let's not retaliate? I think not. The Palestinians have gone about this conflict in completely the wrong way and he's I concur there will probably now never be peace however the way people on this thread act is as if Israel have no fault in this war. That is simply not the case. In the past (most notably the Arab Israeli conflict) Israel did indeed wage war on Palestine, for example capturing villages that were Arab occupied and are somehow now shocked there is retaliation? This is a good website showing that many Jews realise this conflict has two side jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101Yes, there have always been Jews living in Palestine, at least for the past several thousand years. Where did you get the idea that there haven't been? Here is a link for you: Wikipedia - history of Jews in Judea/Palestine/Israel
I don't know anything about your statistics (from 3% to 77% of land ownership during the years specified) ... I don't find the numbers particularly credible but maybe they are correct. Is there a source? What I can tell you, though, is that the Jews bought all of their land from the Arabs. They didn't just come in and seize it. ETA I am speaking here specifically of the years before the establishment of the state of Israel, which is the time frame brought up by Claudia. There were lands seized in war in the following years. Again ... the Palestinians were given the opportunity to have a homeland of their own without Jewish interference. They turned it down and chose war instead. They are still, unfortunately, choosing war. -- A constant state of war isn't good for anyone. As has been repeated many times in this thread, if the Arabs laid down their weapons today, there would be no more war. If the Jews laid down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.What I have bolded above cannot be repeated enough.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 29, 2014 15:07:39 GMT
I-95, we keep hearing that the Palestinians are denied land ownership rights in Israel, but in fact I found this that explains that much of the land in Israel is owned by the government, a portion is owned by the private charitable organization called the Jewish National Fund (JNF), and only a small percent (6.5%) is available for private ownership. Now the land owned by the JNF is not available for non-Jewish lease/ownership -- that would include everyone from non-Jewish Palestinians to non-Jewish Israelis to non-Jewish Americans -- anyone who is not Jewish no matter what their nationality is. The government owned land is available for lease to anyone -- including Arabs. As far as I could see, private land ownership is also available to anyone. (Although I'm sure they are careful not to sell to terrorists.) Stated another way, the Palestinians (and sympathizers) try to make it sound like they are receiving special discrimination, when in fact where there are restrictions, the Palestinians are not being singled out. Is that correct?
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Post by I-95 on Jul 29, 2014 17:28:59 GMT
That is correct. If I'm not mistaken, and I have never really given it a lot of thought, but the villages on either side of us, have been there since Jesus was a child, so I would imagine that the Arab Christians and the Druzim who live there own the land. These are villages that were essentially undisturbed during the early days of Israel. They seem to be building new houses and shopping areas all the time. These folks don't seem to move either. They are born there, and they die there. The kids might go off to college, or meet a girl from another village, but then they come home and build a multi-generational house for the next generation to grow up in. They have their own City Government, their own Mayor and they are part of the Regional Council, which our area also belongs to. They are business owners, doctors, lawyers, nurse, teachers, all the usual stuff one would expect in town or village anywhere in the free world. As a matter of fact, my primary care physician is an Arab from the village down the road.
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