mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
|
Post by mapchic on Jul 16, 2014 21:15:16 GMT
"There is also the whole 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend' feature. If one is truly machiavellian one could say that Israel serves as a convenient distraction for our enemies. If those who have vowed to destroy our nation and kill our people are busy saying 'first Israel, the America' then supporting Israel serves as a bulwark against attacks on us." -- mapchicThe reason they hate the U.S. is because of our support for Israel. So this is sort of a circular argument. As far as our standing among Islamist terror groups goes, we'd be better off without Israel than with it. I think it would be politically expedient for the U.S. to desert Israel, and I'm grateful that instead, we've always stood by it. I think that the issue is much, much more complex than what either of us has said here. Israel is a convenient hat to hang the 'why do they hate us' argument on but there is more than just that. Partially they hate us because we are western and enlightened. Partially they hate us because we are powerful and they are not. Partially they hate us because we are the inheritors of the legacy of the fall of the Ottoman empire. Partially they hate us because of cold war tinkering in the region. Partially they hate us because they have been taught since childhood to hate us and it's just tradition. It's hate. Hate is never reasonable. It's a fools errand to try and really understand it through reason.
|
|
|
Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 16, 2014 21:32:28 GMT
"There is also the whole 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend' feature. If one is truly machiavellian one could say that Israel serves as a convenient distraction for our enemies. If those who have vowed to destroy our nation and kill our people are busy saying 'first Israel, the America' then supporting Israel serves as a bulwark against attacks on us." -- mapchicThe reason they hate the U.S. is because of our support for Israel. So this is sort of a circular argument. As far as our standing among Islamist terror groups goes, we'd be better off without Israel than with it. I think it would be politically expedient for the U.S. to desert Israel, and I'm grateful that instead, we've always stood by it. I think that the issue is much, much more complex than what either of us has said here. Israel is a convenient hat to hang the 'why do they hate us' argument on but there is more than just that. Partially they hate us because we are western and enlightened. Partially they hate us because we are powerful and they are not. Partially they hate us because we are the inheritors of the legacy of the fall of the Ottoman empire. Partially they hate us because of cold war tinkering in the region. Partially they hate us because they have been taught since childhood to hate us and it's just tradition. It's hate. Hate is never reasonable. It's a fools errand to try and really understand it through reason. I would add a few... Partially they hate us because we do not consider Islam to be our nation's religion and do not revere Allah. (Forget the fact that we don't consider ANY one religion to be our national religion.) Partially they hate us because we educate our girls along with our boys. Partially they hate us because we allow women to speak for themselves and give them the same rights as men. Partially they hate us because we recognize that, besides Islam, both Judaism and Christianity have an equally valid claim to the holy city of Jerusalem. It just seems to boil down to them hating anything that doesn't align with their cultural/religious perspective. And you are very right- hate is never reasonable.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 16, 2014 21:53:30 GMT
This pretty much sums up why the free world has such trouble understanding the Middle East. We, as a society, are reasonable people, and we think others are like us, also reasonable people. Unfortunately that isn't so. If the situation in the Middle East could be solved through *reasonable* negotiations, there would have been peace years ago. These people are not reasonable, they simply don't care what we think. We are infidels and that's the beginning and the end of the story. In their world infidels do not have a right to exist so why should they negotiate?
It's like trying to negotiate, using logic, with a very determined 2 year old who's in the middle of a tantrum.
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Jul 16, 2014 22:05:47 GMT
... rejected the ceasefire. Does that mean rockets will continue to be fired? Will that break the ceasefire? .... CEASE FIRE. They didn't.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 18:32:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 22:05:51 GMT
Here is an editorial by Sen. Chuck Schumer from Tuesday's New York Post that I think everyone should read. There Is No Moral Equivalency Between Israel and Hamas <snip> In fact, there is no moral equivalence between the actions and reactions of Israel and Hamas and the Palestinian community to the violence that has occurred. Two glaring examples stand out. The first revolves around the difference between Israel's and the Palestinian community's reactions to the horrible kidnappings and coldblooded murders of four boys, three Israeli and one Palestinian. No doubt the loss of these children is one beyond words. Both incidents were abhorrent. But the reaction on both sides was not the same. How did Hamas and too many diverse parts of the mainstream Palestinian community respond to the kidnap and murder of three young Israelis? They cheered. The official Hamas spokesman called the kidnappers "heroes." The mother of one of the suspected kidnappers, Abu Aysha, said, "If he [my son] truly did it — I'll be proud of him till my final day." <snip> Compare that to the reaction of the Israeli people to the murder of the Palestinian teenager. Israelis were aghast. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately called the murderers "terrorists" who committed deeds equal to the terrorism on the other side and said that Israel must find "who is behind this despicable murder." The Israeli government has made every effort to bring those responsible to justice, and there are now six arrests. While each side has its fanatics, it's how the societies deal with those fanatics that counts. --- There's more covered in the editorial so check it out. Thanks for posting this Lucy. Excellent article. ETA: I've been happy on this thread to be able to completely agree with my friends Lucy, Elaine, & I-95, which is a rarity. However, I now am in complete agreement with an article by *Chuck Schumer*. I feel like I've entered an alternate reality, lol.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 18:32:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 22:50:59 GMT
Jodster...I thought the same thing a few days ago. How I can butt heads with people so often (and I've butted heads nicely...and not so nicely with many people here) but on this, we're in solid agreement.
Just goes to show...that there is something...even if it is only one thing (and I know I'm in agreement with them on other stuff too) that they're really not all that bad and as much as they dislike my position on many things, hopefully they too will see that I'm not all bad.
|
|
oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,062
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
|
Post by oh yvonne on Jul 16, 2014 23:06:49 GMT
this has been such an amazing thread. I too have learned new things, thank you all of you who have shared your extensive knowledge.
I95 my prayers are with you all as well. I work with a young guy (20's) is going to be going in two weeks with his sister and they plan on touring, staying in hostels and even camping? in Israel. I asked him if he was worried and he said 'not at all' and he's actually very excited to go. I'm excited too for him, because he is so stoked to go. I told him I'm worried about his safety but he's really just pumped.
I'm praying for Israel as always. This is just so mind blowing, still after all these years.
|
|
mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
|
Post by mapchic on Jul 16, 2014 23:07:33 GMT
Right there with you. I am thinking it's a new board a whole new start to interactions with everyone.
It goes to show how this is an issue that transcends standard political boundaries.
|
|
|
Post by elaine on Jul 16, 2014 23:10:51 GMT
Here is an editorial by Sen. Chuck Schumer from Tuesday's New York Post that I think everyone should read. There Is No Moral Equivalency Between Israel and Hamas <snip> In fact, there is no moral equivalence between the actions and reactions of Israel and Hamas and the Palestinian community to the violence that has occurred. Two glaring examples stand out. The first revolves around the difference between Israel's and the Palestinian community's reactions to the horrible kidnappings and coldblooded murders of four boys, three Israeli and one Palestinian. No doubt the loss of these children is one beyond words. Both incidents were abhorrent. But the reaction on both sides was not the same. How did Hamas and too many diverse parts of the mainstream Palestinian community respond to the kidnap and murder of three young Israelis? They cheered. The official Hamas spokesman called the kidnappers "heroes." The mother of one of the suspected kidnappers, Abu Aysha, said, "If he [my son] truly did it — I'll be proud of him till my final day." There's more covered in the editorial so check it out. Thanks for posting this Lucy. Excellent article. ETA: I've been happy on this thread to be able to completely agree with my friends Lucy, Elaine, & I-95, which is a rarity. However, I now am in complete agreement with an article by *Chuck Schumer*. I feel like I've entered an alternate reality, lol. Jody, I love you!
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 16, 2014 23:27:45 GMT
Someone asked if the International press was in collusion with the Palestinians. Sometimes they actually are - action shots sell. Sometimes they are duped by the Palestinians.
This first video was produced by an organization called The Second Draft (be careful, Google told me the site had been hacked, but I have good protection and went there anyway - it appears to be a legit site). The original video is on their website, but this copy was on YouTube as a standalone that I could embed. It's 18 minutes well worth watching, but if you don't want to watch all of it, note the segment at the 5:50 mark where a corpse is dropped -- and climbs back on his funeral bier -- twice!
The second video is shorter and was put together by some teens in San Fransisco.
The Palestinians aren't the only ones who engage in Pallywood tactics, the Muslim Brotherhood (video) in Egypt.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 16, 2014 23:55:36 GMT
I'll second that <3
Ain't that the truth! I've been 'liking' posts by people I have never liked a post they've made in the 12 years I've been a P. This alone makes this thread historical.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 18:32:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 0:11:01 GMT
So Dotty, I'm just wondering what you think Israel should do; other than lay down and die? Did I suggest that anywhere in any of my posts Lauren? Here it is again - which part of this did you miss? Offensive? Why because I happen to think that there are innocent Palestinians caught up in this. You can think whatever you like,I stand by my comment that not all Palestinians voted Hamas. And if I, and many others around the world have sympathy and compassion for the loss of innocent lives I can live with that and sleep at night in the knowledge that I value human life whatever their nationality. Don't you also feel bad for the government you have in office now? I can't recall you ever saying that you voted President Obama into office..... maybe you should try the same thing if you think it's that easy for the 55% of Palestinians that didn't vote for Hamas. I take it you don't read the New York Times then Lauren? And just so that it's clear to others Hamas do not control the West Bank Mapchic........ did a little search as to the origin of the video you linked to. Maybe you would also like to watch this video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j4UxdgF6l4Sorry I don't know how to link a direct video.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 18:32:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 1:04:07 GMT
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 17, 2014 1:18:41 GMT
I noted two things about this video: 1. It was produced by Al Jazeera television. 2. At no point did I hear them say that the translations were inaccurate (did I miss where they did?) Their main complaint is that MEMRI-TV cherry-picks their sound bites. I've read time and again how ME leaders will tell western audiences (UN, U.S. university speeches and other speeches) one thing, but their own people something else. I believe the former Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood president was pegged for doing this a few times, as just one example. (Sorry, I don't bookmark stuff like that at the time, so I can't provide a specific example. I would have to say that children's television programming as in the example shown is indeed news and the mouse is particularly sympolic in the U.S. because of Disney's Mickey Mouse which is so pervasive here. Maybe if so many people weren't saying so many radical things, Al Jazeera wouldn't have a complaint. ETA: Found an example from this recent Forbes article about the Muslim Brotherhood: Of course it's not just the Muslim Brotherhood that has been caught in the act of doublespeak.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 18:32:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 1:34:03 GMT
Same to you, Elaine and I-95! Dotty, my heart does go out to the Palestinians that are innocent in all of this. It's just that when you read things like this: I just wonder what percentage of the Palestinians can see the Israelis as human beings and not as enemies whose deaths are to be celebrated? I wish I could read an article that showed that there are Palestinians that feel that way. I just haven't seen that. I'm off now to look.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 18:32:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 2:13:56 GMT
I noted two things about this video: 1. It was produced by Al Jazeera television. 2. At no point did I hear them say that the translations were inaccurate (did I miss where they did?) Their main complaint is that MEMRI-TV cherry-picks their sound bites. I've read time and again how ME leaders will tell western audiences (UN, U.S. university speeches and other speeches) one thing, but their own people something else. I believe the former Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood president was pegged for doing this a few times, as just one example. (Sorry, I don't bookmark stuff like that at the time, so I can't provide a specific example. I would have to say that children's television programming as in the example shown is indeed news and the mouse is particularly sympolic in the U.S. because of Disney's Mickey Mouse which is so pervasive here. Maybe if so many people weren't saying so many radical things, Al Jazeera wouldn't have a complaint. ETA: Found an example from this recent Forbes article about the Muslim Brotherhood: Of course it's not just the Muslim Brotherhood that has been caught in the act of doublespeak. The point I was trying to get across was that Memri is an Islamophobia broadcaster and controlled by Israelis. No different to any site or reporting that could be classed as anti semitic. You yourself pointed out the link earlier in the thread on " what Americans should know" as allegedly being controlled by an anti semitic journalist. I wasn't disputing what was said I was questioning their motives.
|
|
queenofkings
Full Member
Posts: 283
Jun 26, 2014 15:26:41 GMT
|
Post by queenofkings on Jul 17, 2014 2:17:28 GMT
Thank you all for the insight and for sharing your knowledge of what is going on. I, too, have to admit to being ignorant of how most of this worked. I had a limited and basic understanding, but I feel very educated now, thanks to I95, Lucy, KatyCupcake, and others (sorry I know I left a couple of you out!)
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 17, 2014 2:44:48 GMT
The point I was trying to get across was that Memri is an Islamophobia broadcaster and controlled by Israelis. No different to any site or reporting that could be classed as anti semitic. You yourself pointed out the link earlier in the thread on " what Americans should know" as allegedly being controlled by an anti semitic journalist. I wasn't disputing what was said I was questioning their motives. Ah, I see what you are getting at, but I would disagree with your label of "Islamophobia." That label (to me) implies a prejudice, fear, or hatred for no reason other than that is what the person is. I would say that there is plenty of reason to fear what they are saying and we need to heed the warnings on these sound bites. Too many countries have experienced terrorist acts that have been committed by the followers of the philosophies conveyed in these sound bites. So yes, Memri is sounding the alarm and we need to heed it. I'm glad someone is providing the translations. We can't stick our heads in the sand and pretend like they don't carry out what they promise.
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 17, 2014 3:46:15 GMT
I just wanted to add (it may be too late for an ETA) that Al Jazeera complains about the "cherry picked" clips and that they don't include "reasonable" people. I would say that "reasonable" people don't make the news (Memri-TV) because they aren't threatening to kill us, (or exhorting men to beat their wives, or any number of other clips I've seen) just like "good" news rarely makes the news stations or papers. That's the nature of the press.
Actually, I Googled "memri tv muslims condemn terrorism" and they do have translations of condemnations of attacks.
|
|
|
Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 17, 2014 3:50:14 GMT
I suppose if I lived in a country the size of New Jersey surrounded by Arab nations that have all agreed to not recognize our place on the map and support terrorist networks aimed at wiping out my family and entire country, I would have a mild to perhaps even moderate case of "Islamophobia". It's scary to live surrounded by extremists who want you dead and not know which Muslim neighbors you really can trust.
|
|
mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
|
Post by mapchic on Jul 17, 2014 4:37:07 GMT
I watched it and my response is ... so? That Al Jazeera (no bias there) report never claimed that MEMRI mistranslated anything or that they were creating the clips out of nothing. The attitude seems to be like my nephews when he was a little boy and would get caught doing something bad "You weren't supposed to see that" Even if MEMRI is an agenda driven organization cherry picking what the promote in their translations that doesn't change the fact that Hamas leaders are calling on civilians to go serve as human shields to protect Hamas. A couple of problems here. Firstly - MEMRI is not a broadcaster. Secondly 'controlled by Israelis' ?!? You mean that Israelis are involved in it's creation and translations. Sure, no problem. It isn't like the Israeli government is in charge of it. Israeli citizens (no matter what their previous jobs) have just as much right to free speech as any other human being. Are you intimating that they somehow shouldn't be able to put out there position? Finally what do you mean by 'Islamophobia'? I would like to know what exactly you mean when you use that word. It has become a 'catch all' for lots of people in discussions where they follow this advice...
|
|
tiffanytwisted
Pearl Clutcher
you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave
Posts: 4,538
Jun 26, 2014 15:57:39 GMT
|
Post by tiffanytwisted on Jul 17, 2014 5:15:07 GMT
I have spent the past hour & a half? two hours? reading this thread and I just want to thank you all for sharing your information & insight. I have clicked on all the links, leaving the windows open so I can read them later on today when I am not so bleary-eyed. Again, those of us who sit on the clueless bench appreciate your time and your patience.
|
|
scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,307
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
|
Post by scrappinghappy on Jul 17, 2014 6:35:38 GMT
I suppose if I lived in a country the size of New Jersey surrounded by Arab nations that have all agreed to not recognize our place on the map and support terrorist networks aimed at wiping out my family and entire country, I would have a mild to perhaps even moderate case of "Islamophobia". It's scary to live surrounded by extremists who want you dead and not know which Muslim neighbors you really can trust. Have you heard of Ali Wahib? He is the highest ranking MUSLIM officer in the Israeili Defense Force. In this article he talks about his life and how he is separated from his family and the struggles he has both as an officer and an Arab. “The State of Israel has a lot of different colors. There is a wide variety. Two peoples live here, and the sooner we recognize it, the faster we can minimize the damage. I think that the fact that I am an officer in the IDF communicates a positive message to the Arabs living here. I want to believe that the path that I chose will prove to them that there is another way. My nephew and my cousin enlisted in the Border Police this year, for example. I support them and I help them, with my experience.” “I feel that I am on a mission. I hope that in the future there will be a lot more Muslim Arab officers in the IDF, and that by virtue of us being human beings we will find a way to communicate and find solutions for a shared life.” ~ Ali Wahib
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 18:32:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 10:14:14 GMT
I watched it and my response is ... so? That Al Jazeera (no bias there) report never claimed that MEMRI mistranslated anything or that they were creating the clips out of nothing. The attitude seems to be like my nephews when he was a little boy and would get caught doing something bad "You weren't supposed to see that" Even if MEMRI is an agenda driven organization cherry picking what the promote in their translations that doesn't change the fact that Hamas leaders are calling on civilians to go serve as human shields to protect Hamas. A couple of problems here. Secondly 'controlled by Israelis' ?!? You mean that Israelis are involved in it's creation and translations. Sure, no problem. It isn't like the Israeli government is in charge of it. Israeli citizens (no matter what their previous jobs) have just as much right to free speech as any other human being. Are you intimating that they somehow shouldn't be able to put out there position? Finally what do you mean by 'Islamophobia'? I would like to know what exactly you mean when you use that word. It has become a 'catch all' for lots of people in discussions where they follow this advice... Is that image directed at me Mapchic? Is that what you lower yourself to....calling others racist when you don't want to listen to anyone else's opinion in a discussion. Oh isn't it? A "broadcast" is also a description of a videocast transmitted over the airways. So what exactly would you describe a video transmitted over the internet then? Did I say it did? See my post in reply to Becky's Where did I say that they shouldn't be allowed to put out their opinion. Ah I get it...I can't question the motives of a video that is there, purely to transmit nothing else except extracts from Muslims but it's OK for you to suggest that Al Jazeera is totally biased. Oh! by the way Al Jazeera HAS on a number of occasions reported and condemned actions and statements from Muslims. Their journalists ( multi nationalities) have also been arrested and a number are in jail in Egypt for exercising their rights to a free press. Amnesty has a campaign for their release to protect the right of journalist around the world to free speech linkThe same thing could be suggested by the over use of antisemitism by a number of people. If a video was put out full of negative statements that had been said by the Jewish people and was transmitted purely as propaganda to insinuated that it was the thought,actions and the opinion of every Jewish person in Israel or around the world, I can guarantee that it would be classed as antisemitism and rightly so. The same opinion of a video of equal negativity should be extended to Palestinians and Muslims. The content of any video is irrelevant if those videos are made purely to influence the opinions of others whether they are Jewish or Palestinians. The motive is wrong in both cases.
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Jul 17, 2014 10:26:49 GMT
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 17, 2014 13:20:42 GMT
This guy is truly amazing. He was recently promoted and Israelis consider him to be a fair and just leader of men. There are a lot of Arabs (although not necessarily Muslims) in the IDF, and up in the Northern Galilee, most of the border patrol forces as well as the local police are Arabs, but they are Druzim, not Muslims.
That link didn't work but is in regard to the 5 Hamas members who came in from the sea last week? The ones who didn't make it off the sand before the IDF shot and killed them?
Dottyscrapper.....I do understand what you're saying, I really do. We all feel bad for the innocent Palestinian lives that are lost during these conflicts. I think all we're saying is that there's a HUGE gap between innocent Palestinians, Hamas members, and those who support Hamas. It is true that most Palestinians are uneducated and fed a lot of hate. I wish that were different, but we can't march in and forcibly educate their people, so we have to make a choice...it's them or us, and as much as we'd like not to have it be that way, it is what it is. Palestinians who do not outwardly support Hamas tend to keep very quiet because it's dangerous for a Muslim to speak out against them. While Israelis enjoy free speech and the freedom to criticize the Government, Palestinians do not enjoy the same privileges when it comes to the Palestinian Authority. People who do speak out simply disappear and are never seen again. Until a time comes when Palestinians can defy their leaders, nothing is going to change....looking back at centuries of oppression, I don't hold out much hope that a mass epiphany will take place in the near future. The Middle East is destined to be a region of conflict for the foreseeable future...sad as that is.
|
|
|
Post by mollycoddle on Jul 17, 2014 13:27:19 GMT
Sigh. I'll try the link again. I have 10 thumbs. linkIn case it didn't work, you can paste it: www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4545029,00.html This is about men who were caught tunneling near a kibbutz. They were spotted, luckily.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 17, 2014 14:20:43 GMT
That was a different bunch than the ones who attempted a sea entry. Sneaky terrorists
|
|
|
Post by shevy on Jul 17, 2014 14:58:56 GMT
So I'm not understanding why a deal would be brokered for 5 hours of ceasefire? Is it so that talks can begin to end the conflict? Is it just to give both sides a cooling off period? I'm not undertanding why it's just for a few hours.
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 17, 2014 15:00:08 GMT
I-95, can you expand on this a bit, please? but they are Druzim, not Muslims I tried to look them up, but, not being familiar with some of the religions mentioned, couldn't really decipher much from it. I guess this is the important part? "because the Druze religion does not endorse separatist sentiments but urges blending with the communities they reside in." I gather they don't have enmity for those not of their beliefs?
|
|