mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 17, 2014 16:48:26 GMT
Here is an example of what Israel is up against.... 20 rockets were found stored in a school run by UNRWA (United Nations Relief and works agency). sourceIf Israel had bombed that school (when students were not there) to destroy the rockets they would have been accused of destroying an UN school. On this thread it has been said that targeting civilian areas is a war crime under the Geneva conventions... but that's only half the story. The Geneva conventions are not a suicide pact where you are obliged to follow the rules regardless of what is being done to you. Once they have been broken by one side then the other side is able to respond. In this case when one side intentionally places military resources (rockets, launchers, leadership) in civilian ares it is *they* who have militarized that area making it a viable bombing target.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 17, 2014 17:20:28 GMT
So I'm not understanding why a deal would be brokered for 5 hours of ceasefire? Is it so that talks can begin to end the conflict? Is it just to give both sides a cooling off period? I'm not undertanding why it's just for a few hours. A short-term cease-fire is traditionally called for humanitarian reasons. The sick and injured can be transported for medical aid without having to travel under fire. Civilians can be moved to get them out of the way of the line of fire. (Hamas doesn't do that.) Food can be brought in. In the case of traditional warfare, it gives the combatants time for a meal and a cat-nap, but that doesn't apply here because this is primarily a war of rockets. In this case, it gives Hamas time to move their weapons stores and supplies in an attempt to thwart Israeli intelligence. It gives both sides a chance to regroup, reevaluate, and change strategies as well (so it's sort of a double-edged sword.) In this case, part of the deal was also to get the two sides together. I think this article from Forbes gives a reasonably good quick summation of some of the problems: Israel is in a no-win situation, once again. They can't destroy all the rockets being fired at them from air attacks alone. But if they send soldiers in to destroy the weapons, the civilian deaths will be high and much of the world will cry fowl about the "invasion" and civilian deaths. This basic situation has happened time and again over the years. Also keep in mind that the Palestinians need to have some type of a "win" for their people. They have always done that, even when they have lost, they twist things around so they can tout a "win" to their people. Lying is part and parcel of that, they promised a big "surprise" for their people. They sent in one drone over Israel (which was shot down) but their press release said 14, I believe is what I read. Baghdad Bob had nothing on these people when it comes to twisting, turning, and lying in their press releases.
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Post by shevy on Jul 17, 2014 18:10:26 GMT
Thanks for the information. Makes sense.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 20:25:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 18:22:42 GMT
Here is an example of what Israel is up against.... 20 rockets were found stored in a school run by UNRWA (United Nations Relief and works agency). sourceIf Israel had bombed that school (when students were not there) to destroy the rockets they would have been accused of destroying an UN school. On this thread it has been said that targeting civilian areas is a war crime under the Geneva conventions... but that's only half the story. The Geneva conventions are not a suicide pact where you are obliged to follow the rules regardless of what is being done to you. Once they have been broken by one side then the other side is able to respond. In this case when one side intentionally places military resources (rockets, launchers, leadership) in civilian ares it is *they* who have militarized that area making it a viable bombing target. I can't believe anyone could possibly think that the sentence I have bolded would be justification in any battle. I thought we ( general we) were better than that........tit for tat ? Do you really think that...... because you've bombed our children so we're going to bomb yours .......is the way forward. That is Unf*%$£^* believable and brings the other side, morally and by their actions, down to the same level as the terrorists. As for the UNRWA finding the rockets I think that is absolutely, without doubt, an abhorrent act and there is no justification in doing such a thing but no doubt the parents of the four children playing football on the beach would have the same opinion following what happened to their children too. link
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 20:25:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 18:34:03 GMT
Becky - thanks for that link from Forbes. It speaks a lot of truth. As I said earlier up thread I have no confidence that they are going to get anywhere with Egypt brokering the deal. I found this earlier. The work these people are doing will, hopefully, be a serious contribution to the way forward and ending the distrust that both sides have of each other. And more importantly teach the young that there is another way. It doesn't have to be by terror,threats and the gun. link
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Post by jenjie on Jul 17, 2014 19:15:54 GMT
Here is an example of what Israel is up against.... 20 rocketIs were found stored in a school run by UNRWA (United Nations Relief and works agency). sourceIf Israel had bombed that school (when students were not there) to destroy the rockets they would have been accused of destroying an UN school. On this thread it has been said that targeting civilian areas is a war crime under the Geneva conventions... but that's only half the story. The Geneva conventions are not a suicide pact where you are obliged to follow the rules regardless of what is being done to you. Once they have been broken by one side then the other side is able to respond. In this case when one side intentionally places military resources (rockets, launchers, leadership) in civilian ares it is *they* who have militarized that area making it a viable bombing target. I can't believe anyone could possibly think that the sentence I have bolded would be justification in any battle. I thought we ( general we) were better than that........tit for tat ? Do you really think that...... because you've bombed our children so we're going to bomb yours .......is the way forward. That is Unf*%$£^* believable and brings the other side, morally and by their actions, down to the same level as the terrorists. As for the UNRWA finding the rockets I think that is absolutely, without doubt, an abhorrent act and there is no justification in doing such a thing but no doubt the parents of the four children playing football on the beach would have the same opinion following what happened to their children too. link
" can't believe anyone could possibly think that the sentence I have bolded would be justification in any battle. I thought we ( general we) were better than that........tit for tat ? Do you really think that...... because you've bombed our children so we're going to bomb yours .......is the way forward. That is Unf*%$£^* believable and brings the other side, morally and by their actions, down to the same level as the terrorists. " Sorry I'm posting from my phone and it's too complicated to do a partial quote. What are they supposed to do? Let Hamas continue their attacks unhindered? It has been pointed out over and over again on this thread that Israel does its best to notify so they have a chance to get away from the blast zone. But the Palestinians would rather have dead "trophies" to show the world, rather than allow their own people to live. The Golda Meir quote upthread said "we will only have peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us."
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Post by jenjie on Jul 17, 2014 19:17:40 GMT
I-95 you have showed an incredible amount of patience and restraint on this thread.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 17, 2014 19:46:47 GMT
No, Dotty, I don't think the general 'we' are any better than that. It might not be the way forward, but it is the way most people, most tribes, most countries, react to being assaulted...they hit back. As much as I'd like to think I am better than Hamas, more evolved, more rational, I have to tell you that watching rockets explode over your head does not leave one sitting there saying 'Oh, it's just Hamas trying to kill us again. Let's get everyone into the bomb shelter so we can minimize the damage. Of course we're not going to retaliate, we're so much better than that'...y'know what? BULLSHIT!
I have read the stuff you've written in this thread, and have empathized with your feelings towards the 'innocent Palestinians' but with your last statement, I'm seriously thinking you're incredibly naive. Do you REALLY expect people not to fight back? If your next door neighbor walks across the lawn and belts one of your kids for no good reason that you can decipher, do you say 'Oh, that's just George. I won't retaliate because that would put me on his level.' OK, you might do that once, or even twice, but I'm betting the third time you'd take a baseball bat to George's head. If Israel wanted to they could lay the Gaza strip flat in an afternoon. Totally annihilate every living creature there...but they don't. Conversely if Hamas had the capability to do the same to Israel, they'd do it in a New York second...and if you think otherwise, you are sadly mistaken. Do you understand this is a war zone, not a garden party? The rules are a wee bit different.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 20:25:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 19:50:24 GMT
Oh my goodness. Israel has launched ground offensive in Gaza according to breaking news on Sky.
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back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
Posts: 3,149
Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Jul 17, 2014 19:54:00 GMT
Hearing the same thing on Fox News. I had it on after the Malaysian airliner crash. They are reporting that the Jerusalem News reported that power had been cut to Gaza and there is a coordinated sea, air and land offensive.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 20:25:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 19:57:52 GMT
Imagine - you've taken what I said totally the wrong way. I was referring to mapchic's statement that it was OK to throw the rules of the Geneva convention out the window if one side( terrorist in this case) broke the rules. THAT was what I was referring to tit for tat. If that is the case we'd better just rip the whole bloody international rule book up and throw it out the window and let it be a free for all then!
Yes we can treat prisoners of war like animals, kill unarmed people, bomb wherever we like, torture prisoners...they're all covered, which ones are we going to keep and which ones are we going to violate to suit out own tit for tat?
So lets get this clear
So you're OK with breaking the international law as laid down in the Geneva convention?
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Post by I-95 on Jul 17, 2014 20:05:53 GMT
It's hard to find out much about the Druzim (Hebrew plural of Druze) because they are essentially a secret society as far as religion is concerned. You cannot become a Druze through conversion, you must be born one. They also do not marry outside their faith. They are a fiercely loyal and trustworthy people and Israel is fortunate to have them on their side. Their religion is a mixture of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, but when Israel become in Independent State the Druze in Israel chose not to involve themselves with the Muslim Arabs in fighting against Isarel. They live in peaceful coexistence with Israelis, but if you lie, cheat or steal, they will cut your head off. They are also a stunningly beautiful race. Their men get more beautiful as they age....and they have no enmity for those who are not of their faith. The Muslim Arabs could learn a lot from them.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 17, 2014 20:06:46 GMT
Yes, folks, this is a war.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 20:25:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 20:19:04 GMT
Watching on Fox. As justified as Israel is, it is still beyond scary as hell. Be safe, I-95.
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Post by jenjie on Jul 17, 2014 20:30:35 GMT
Yes stay safe!
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mimima
Drama Llama
Stay Gold, Ponyboy
Posts: 5,073
Jun 25, 2014 19:25:50 GMT
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Post by mimima on Jul 17, 2014 20:41:59 GMT
Lord have Mercy. Prayers, my dear. Love.
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mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 17, 2014 20:57:07 GMT
I was trying to explain to you how the Geneva Conventions work. If your opponent breaks the conventions you are not then required to abide by them in dealing with that violation. That's the deal.
It isn't that once you sign the Geneva Conventions you are then required to abide by rules regardless of the actions of your opponents, or even if your opponents are signatories. If that were the case then no nation would ever have signed the treaties because it would have given no protections and would have set up the signatories as sitting ducks against unscrupulous tactics (like keeping rockets in schools!).
Sometimes people who don't understand this fact think that the Geneva Conventions are some sort of magic wand that will make everyone only fight according to the rules. We live in the real world and within the treaties there are consequences for breaking the rules.
You can see this clearly in WWII. Germany had signed the Geneva Conventions, USSR had not. Germany treated POWs from fellow signatories (US, UK, France) fairly well as required by the conventions. Meanwhile Soviet POWs were treated abominably... and Soviets treated German POWs terribly as well while German POWs in US, UK or Canadian camps were quite well treated (so well treated that many of them immigrated to the US or Canada).
Should Germany have treated USSR POWs better? Absolutely. Should the USSR have treated German POWs better? Absolutely. However they were not required to.
Meanwhile in the Pacific Japan had not signed the treaties while the America had. Our POWs were treated abominably by the Japanese... but the (very few) Japanese POWs did *not* receive corresponding treatment. Not because America was required to treat them well. Because America *choose* to.
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Post by elaine on Jul 17, 2014 21:01:20 GMT
Yes, folks, this is a war. Take care. May you and your family be safe.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 17, 2014 21:02:43 GMT
Imagine - you've taken what I said totally the wrong way. I was referring to mapchic's statement that it was OK to throw the rules of the Geneva convention out the window if one side( terrorist in this case) broke the rules. THAT was what I was referring to tit for tat. If that is the case we'd better just rip the whole bloody international rule book up and throw it out the window and let it be a free for all then! Yes we can treat prisoners of war like animals, kill unarmed people, bomb wherever we like, torture prisoners...they're all covered, which ones are we going to keep and which ones are we going to violate to suit out own tit for tat? So lets get this clear So you're OK with breaking the international law as laid down in the Geneva convention? It isn't exactly "tit for tat". There are rules of warfare that are supposed to be followed. Hamas refuses to fight according to the Geneva convention. Israel still does fight according to the Geneva Convention by only targeting military areas. The sad truth is that Hamas purposefully turns civilian areas into militarized areas by placing their weapons in areas where innocent civilians live. Geneva Convention allows Israel to fire upon military targets. They do all that they can to follow the code of conduct- they send alerts, they warn civilians, they give opportunity to evacuate before finally firing on a location they have determined to be a place where rockets and weapons are stored. Hamas is the only side breaking the rules of warfare by purposefully militarizing civilian areas. Once they store their rockets, guns, bombs, etc in those places, they are now militarized zones. And it's all done on purpose- to get you and me upset over Israel firing on "civilian" areas. It puts Israel in a no-win situation. They don't want civilian Palestinian casualties. They also don't want Israeli civilian casualties. That's why the quote shared earlier is so important- "We can forgive them for killing our children but we can't forgive them for making us kill their children. We will only have peace when they love their children more than they hate ours."
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 20:25:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:45:13 GMT
I now exactly what and how the Geneva Convention works mapchic. I'm not sure why you and a few others are trying to justify explaining it to me. I was answering a question posted by scappinghappy and my answer was I still stand by my opinion that we( as in general we..the countries that have signed it) shouldn't lower ourselves to the same actions . We are (again general we) quick enough to condemn others for doing so and yet, you are suggesting that we do the same! Did you and others miss the last two sentences of my post? As it happens the accusation that Israel has breached international law refers to the actions carried out in the West Bank not to Gaza as that original quote in scrappinghappy's post suggests. It's an accusation by The Human Right Watch. I didn't say I agreed with them! Seems the best thing for me to do is not to answer anyone's questions from now on! link
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 20:25:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:49:52 GMT
Take care imagine 747
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Pinky Zebra
Full Member
I love Daryl Dixon. I want to lick his face and have his babies.
Posts: 169
Location: West Texas
Jun 26, 2014 5:37:40 GMT
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Post by Pinky Zebra on Jul 17, 2014 23:59:00 GMT
Yes, folks, this is a war. Praying for your safety!
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Post by nantini on Jul 18, 2014 0:04:25 GMT
I-95 please stay safe and know our prayers are with you. I can't imagine what you are experiencing there.
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Post by dulcemama on Jul 18, 2014 0:27:35 GMT
I have been reading this thread for the last few days and have learned a lot. Thank you. I-95, I hope you and your family stay safe. Positive thoughts going out to you.
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Post by PinkPrincess77 on Jul 18, 2014 1:02:39 GMT
Please stay safe, Imagine747!! I will be keeping you in my thoughts!
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Post by jamieson on Jul 18, 2014 2:42:27 GMT
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 20:25:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 2:49:44 GMT
The human race can't afford that kind of utopia. Because if you don't give tit for tat, you won't be here tomorrow. That's the way the world works. The Geneva Convention exists to give us permission to take a stand against people who commit evil and get the ball rolling. It spells out the rules, determines where that line in the sand is that you shouldn't cross. But it doesn't say there aren't consequences for crossing it. Once evil is running amuk,you confront it or you die.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 18, 2014 5:21:47 GMT
Take care, I-95. I've been worried about you.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 18, 2014 6:35:37 GMT
As it happens the accusation that Israel has breached international law refers to the actions carried out in the West Bank not to Gaza as that original quote in scrappinghappy's post suggests. It's an accusation by The Human Right Watch. I didn't say I agreed with them! Seems the best thing for me to do is not to answer anyone's questions from now on! link I hope you don't shut down, I find this discussion interesting. Particularly the link you provided from Human Rights Watch. Here is what I find interesting about the organization. I was wondering if they condemn the actions of Hamas, the Palestinian Authority -- the terrorists -- as equally, and in as great detail, as they condemn the actions of Israel. (And there is no doubt that Israeli forces do make mistakes and cross the line sometimes.) So I looked for a story about the 3 dead teenagers. Here is the first line of the story: So ... terrorists don't qualify as an armed group? They seem more concerned that the Israeli forces detonated explosives they found at the home of one of the kidnapping suspects (you know, explosives that would have been used to kill Israelis) damaging the home and furniture, than they do about the dead teens. I tried to look up a few other names, Israeli's that were killed by Palestinian terrorists, and none of the more recent deaths were mentioned that I could find (except one, and again they condemned Israel for following their own laws, they didn't even call the death deplorable). The only conclusion I can draw is that Palestinian terrorists can kill all day long, and HRW will say that they are wrong to do that (in a rather perfunctory manner and only sometimes), but only the Israeli's are condemned by Human Rights Watch in great detail. If you could point out where I'm wrong, I'd appreciate it. I didn't spend hours on this, but I just don't think it casts HRW in a very good light.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 18, 2014 8:20:27 GMT
This was the Dolphin, a popular night club on Tel Aviv Beach, after a suicide bomber detonated a bomb inside, killing 21 Israeli kids (teens and 20s) who were just out for a night of music and dancing. This happened in 2001 and what remains of the club is still there as a reminder of the constant threat Israel is under from people who don't fight fair.
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