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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 8:32:33 GMT
I've respected a lot of your views and posts in the past Jody but I've never assumed that I know your world view because we disagree about the humanitarian consequences covering two particular issues. I'm quite curious on how being brought up in Britain ( Europe as you define it) would define someone's world views or political beliefs come to that,unless of course you define everyone in Europe,including Britain as being socialists! Is that what you were suggesting by comparing it to conservatives in Texas?
I can assure you that there is far more cultural differences among the different countries of Europe than there is between the different states of America whether it's language,food,housing,healthcare,work or whatever else you can think of.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 9:29:10 GMT
I'm quite curious on how being brought up in Britain ( Europe as you define it) would define someone's world views or political beliefs come to that,unless of course you define everyone in Europe,including Britain as being socialists! Is that what you were suggesting by comparing it to conservatives in Texas? Got to admit this intrigues me also. Often in discussions it seems that Americans regard all of Europe. and include the UK, as Socialist/Communist (and the two words do not mean the same thing!!). Let's get this right once and for all for this country. The United Kingdom (Great Britain, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales - whatever you want to call us) has a Conservative government. Our main political parties are Conservatives, Labour ( not Socialist), Liberal Democrats and other minor parties. Therefore any statement to the world at the moment is made by a Conservative government. We have an unwritten modern times Constitution but have the Magna Carta drawn up in 1215:- We have free speech and free elections. And yes, there are many, many cultural and political differences in Europe as a whole. Just wanted to explain that!!
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 22, 2014 10:21:00 GMT
I just have a question for our European Peas. Do you guys think that the EU will apply sanctions? It looks to me, from what I've been reading, that sanctions might have to wait. I am inferring that the EU wants to make sure not to piss Putin off before they get full access to the crash site and are able to conduct a thorough investigation. It also looks like sanctions might be complicated by existing import/export deals that some nations have with Russia.
What do the EU Peas think? Will sanctions happen? The Brits are pushing, but it does look very complicated. And it is understandable that the economy and trade deals could make things much more difficult. What is your media saying about ramification of this tragedy?
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 10:36:38 GMT
I just have a question for our European Peas. Do you guys think that the EU will apply sanctions? It looks to me, from what I've been reading, that sanctions might have to wait. I am inferring that the EU wants to make sure not to piss Putin off before they get full access to the crash site and are able to conduct a thorough investigation. It also looks like sanctions might be complicated by existing import/export deals that some nations have with Russia.
What do the EU Peas think? Will sanctions happen? The Brits are pushing, but it does look very complicated. And it is understandable that the economy and trade deals could make things much more difficult. What is your media saying about ramification of this tragedy? Some up to the minute articles on this for you from BBC News in the UK. Oh and references to gas means natural gas for home heating, cooking etc., not petroleum for cars.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 10:40:00 GMT
From The Daily Telegraph this morning, a respected newspaper in the UK.
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Jul 22, 2014 10:40:18 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28415248This is what the BBC are saying. When I saw the news that the UK is going to re-examine the death of Russian ex-spy Alexander Litvinenko my first thought was "that's to piss Russia off" since the UK dragged their feet over examining his death when it first happened. The main issue I see is the dependence of some countries on Russian gas and whether that will sway their resolve.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 10:41:27 GMT
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 10:42:44 GMT
Remember that the above is what is in the British media. Countries in Europe may be saying something different.
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Jul 22, 2014 10:47:46 GMT
With respect to European politics, I think the result in the latest EU elections might make interesting reading for those so inclined. They were referred to as earthquake results and it was pointed out it would be foolish to ignore the message the voters were giving. In the UK, a right wing, anti Europe, anti immigration party upset the apple cart. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27601937
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 22, 2014 10:53:02 GMT
Thanks, ladies. I would also be interested to see what the Dutch media is saying-since I don't speak the language. I do understand that the natural gas imports from Russia really complicate matters. It is hard to believe that Putin is being so hard-headed-his stock market is already dropping, and I'm betting that it will get worse. Russian businesses are bound to be hurt by his intransigence.
But I have read-and his recent behavior seems to bear this out-that he wants a return to the glory days of the old USSR. And it is looking like there is a chance of a second Cold War. I remember the first one, and I sure hope that it doesn't happen. But Putin's support of the thugs who took over that crash site is just further evidence of his refusal to examine their behavior, his support of them,and his need for control and power.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 11:24:10 GMT
Thanks, ladies. I would also be interested to see what the Dutch media is saying-since I don't speak the language. I do understand that the natural gas imports from Russia really complicate matters. It is hard to believe that Putin is being so hard-headed-his stock market is already dropping, and I'm betting that it will get worse. Russian businesses are bound to be hurt by his intransigence.
But I have read-and his recent behavior seems to bear this out-that he wants a return to the glory days of the old USSR. And it is looking like there is a chance of a second Cold War. I remember the first one, and I sure hope that it doesn't happen. But Putin's support of the thugs who took over that crash site is just further evidence of his refusal to examine their behavior, his support of them,and his need for control and power. I don't read Dutch so will leave the items from Dutch media to Juliet if she has time to join in. Not sure that Putin wants to go as far as another Cold War exactly like the first one but he certainly seems to have hardened his stance on things since he was first President of Russia in 2000 for several years. Maybe that's because a suddenly more democratic Russia brought in more lawlessness, gangs specialising in international money fraud and a lot of hardship for ordinary people when the State stopped providing who became very vocal about it There's a lot of unemployment in Russia too; and a lot of money with the Oiligarchs! He supported the thugs in Ukraine because he didn't want Ukraine to leave the Federation in the first place - and that has now turned round and bitten him hard. It's the biggest country in the world and has the highest population so there were bound to be mega problems after the demise of the communist era. Guess it could be any/all/none of these reasons and he just became power and control hungry!! I'm no expert on Putin and Russia, these are just random thoughts after reading your post. It will be interesting to watch developments during the next hours and days and years.
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Post by pjaye on Jul 22, 2014 11:27:19 GMT
In our (Australian) news just now that we would be sending troops to the Ukraine. Waiting for another update to hear all the details as I didn't quite catch it all the last time. Much better that we do it, rather than the USA because it is far less likely that this will be seen as an act of aggression...Aussies don't start wars and we don't have the same history with Russia as some of the other European countries or the USA do. linkMalaysian offcials have also confirmed that the black boxes have been handed over and they "seem to be intact" Some of the bodies are also finally on the move: So it seems like the various politicians and officials from the countries most affected are making progress in a very difficult political situation. I'm confident that US politicians are also doing all they can and I still absolutely believe that them being more low key with their involvement is the best political strategy right now.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 11:32:32 GMT
In our (Australian) news just now that we would be sending troops to the Ukraine. Waiting for another update to hear all the details as I didn't quite catch it all the last time. Much better that we do it, rather than the USA because it is far less likely that this will be seen as an act of aggression...Aussies don't start wars and we don't have the same history with Russia as some of the other European countries or the USA do. linkMalaysian offcials have also confirmed that the black boxes have been handed over and they "seem to be intact" Some of the bodies are also finally on the move: So it seems like the various politicians and officials from the countries most affected are making progress in a very difficult political situation. I'm confident that US politicians are also doing all they can and I still absolutely believe that them being more low key with their involvement is the best political strategy right now. A very interesting development pjaye and Australia acting as 'honest broker' could be just what this situation needs for exactly the reasons given. Looking forward to hearing updates and further news on this!
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 22, 2014 11:34:44 GMT
Thanks, ladies. I would also be interested to see what the Dutch media is saying-since I don't speak the language. I do understand that the natural gas imports from Russia really complicate matters. It is hard to believe that Putin is being so hard-headed-his stock market is already dropping, and I'm betting that it will get worse. Russian businesses are bound to be hurt by his intransigence.
But I have read-and his recent behavior seems to bear this out-that he wants a return to the glory days of the old USSR. And it is looking like there is a chance of a second Cold War. I remember the first one, and I sure hope that it doesn't happen. But Putin's support of the thugs who took over that crash site is just further evidence of his refusal to examine their behavior, his support of them,and his need for control and power. I don't read Dutch so will leave the items from Dutch media to Juliet if she has time to join in. Not sure that Putin wants to go as far as another Cold War exactly like the first one but he certainly seems to have hardened his stance on things since he was first President of Russia in 2000 for several years. Maybe that's because a suddenly more democratic Russia brought in more lawlessness, gangs specialising in international money fraud and a lot of hardship for ordinary people when the State stopped providing who became very vocal about it There's a lot of unemployment in Russia too; and a lot of money with the Oiligarchs! He supported the thugs in Ukraine because he didn't want Ukraine to leave the Federation in the first place - and that has now turned round and bitten him hard. It's the biggest country in the world and has the highest population so there were bound to be mega problems after the demise of the communist era. Guess it could be any/all/none of these reasons and he just became power and control hungry!! I'm no expert on Putin and Russia, these are just random thoughts after reading your post. It will be interesting to watch developments during the next hours and days and years. Good points. I don't think that Putin wants a Cold War; I think that he wants his way, and it is possible that a sort of weaker Cold War( because Russia is not as powerful as was the USSR and is already hurting) might result from his unfortunate decisions. It will depend, I think, on what the EU does in the near future. Let's face it; US/Russia relations are already in the toilet, and we have applied sanctions. So we're done, especially since this is really a European matter for the most part. I have to say that I'm pleased by how Obama is reacting. He realizes, I think, that we are bit players in this tragedy.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 22, 2014 11:38:55 GMT
In our (Australian) news just now that we would be sending troops to the Ukraine. Waiting for another update to hear all the details as I didn't quite catch it all the last time. Much better that we do it, rather than the USA because it is far less likely that this will be seen as an act of aggression...Aussies don't start wars and we don't have the same history with Russia as some of the other European countries or the USA do. linkMalaysian offcials have also confirmed that the black boxes have been handed over and they "seem to be intact" Some of the bodies are also finally on the move: So it seems like the various politicians and officials from the countries most affected are making progress in a very difficult political situation. I'm confident that US politicians are also doing all they can and I still absolutely believe that them being more low key with their involvement is the best political strategy right now. This is a good development, I think. Wasn't thinking of the Aussies taking the lead(I was thinking about the EU countries) but this makes a lot of sense. I'm so glad that the bodies are being repatriated. Those poor families-I can't imagine their pain.
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Post by pjaye on Jul 22, 2014 11:45:56 GMT
I agree Barbara, obviously this is from an Aussie news source so the focus in on bringing the Australian dead home for their families, but if we are making progress, no doubt other countries are too - or we are also helping them. I can't imagine any country only focusing on their own dead...they would get as many out of there as they possibly could while they have the opportunity.
ETA: I just heard that the train has 282 bodies on board, that's almost all of them, which will be a sad relief to their poor families, but how horrible for the few not there.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 12:00:31 GMT
Good points. I don't think that Putin wants a Cold War; I think that he wants his way, and it is possible that a sort of weaker Cold War( because Russia is not as powerful as was the USSR and is already hurting) might result from his unfortunate decisions. It will depend, I think, on what the EU does in the near future. Let's face it; US/Russia relations are already in the toilet, and we have applied sanctions. So we're done, especially since this is really a European matter for the most part. I have to say that I'm pleased by how Obama is reacting. He realizes, I think, that we are bit players in this tragedy. Good thinking Mollycoddle, well said!! UK/Russia relations are on the toilet seat ready to fall in so it will be interesting to see what develops now on that front......our Prime Minister has been very vocal about these things because we won't stand by and watch Putin become a mega bully and say nothing. Looks as though we are heading for another row with France as well!! No matter what political persuasion, US citizens should be proud of your President.......even if it's sneaky and only a little bit! :smile:He has gained a lot of respect internationally for his handling of the US participation in this situation. As far as the actual plane crisis and resulting happenings go, it's totally good news that the Australians have got this part of it well and truly organised! That will be of some comfort to the relatives.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 12:06:04 GMT
Sadly when thing like this happen it shows the bad side of Global free market economy. When one country doesn't play by the rules other countries end up in disagreement on what sanctions to apply.Some countries have far more to lose than others and a greater impact will be felt. It's finding a balance to please everyone involved is the difficulty they're all facing.
Europe have had some sanctions against Russia for quite a while but it obviously wasn't enough to stop Putin! One starts to wonder what will!
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Post by gypsymama on Jul 22, 2014 14:39:54 GMT
just saw republican congressman mac thornberry on cnn and i swear he said that the US needs to be a leader/take leadership in this situation at least a dozen times... now i'm seeing where that thought process comes from
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Post by juliet on Jul 22, 2014 15:17:47 GMT
I'll be here later this evening, first need to pick up and feed the kids and get them to sleep. I haven't read all of the replies yet, but am interested in what you guys wrote.
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Post by juliet on Jul 22, 2014 15:18:01 GMT
I'll be here later this evening, first need to pick up and feed the kids and get them to sleep. I haven't read all of the replies yet, but am interested in what you guys wrote.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 16:31:34 GMT
just saw republican congressman mac thornberry on cnn and i swear he said that the US needs to be a leader/take leadership in this situation at least a dozen times... now i'm seeing where that thought process comes from Another piece in the jigsaw of understanding. Thank you!
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Post by juliet on Jul 22, 2014 17:42:42 GMT
Okay I'm here. While Dutch people are more concerned about bringing home our victims, and news media are writing mostly about that, later this afternoon I read that the EU are busy with speeding up the process of sanctions against Russia, since they don't seem to bother trying to work things out with the Ukraine. New people and organisations (who profit from the pro-Russian uprising in the Ukraine) will be blacklisted, their funds will be frozen and people won't be able to travel to the EU anymore.They are also working on more economical, financial and technological sanctions, although I'm not quite sure what those will be. Minister Timmermans held a very emotional speech: www.zie.nl/video/r7izfwvfd70r I'm not sure what to think about it yet.
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Post by juliet on Jul 22, 2014 17:49:28 GMT
and tomorrow we'll have a national day to grieve.
I really loved the message mr. Obama left at the embassy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 17:52:34 GMT
I saw that video of Mr Timmermans earlier Juliet,very very emotional but also very dignified.
ETA Yes I agree with you a very nice message of condolence from President Obama.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 18:12:19 GMT
I saw that video of Mr Timmermans earlier Juliet,very very emotional but also very dignified. ETA Yes I agree with you a very nice message of condolence from President Obama. I felt exactly the same regarding these Juliet.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 18:15:46 GMT
A link to the BBC page regarding sanctions
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 18:41:24 GMT
I'm not saying you're socialist, just a lot more liberal than me. I've never seen an international pea that was as conservative as me, but maybe I'm wrong.
All I meant by having a different world view than me is that you see things in a more liberal way than I do.
The world "socialist" hasn't come to mind even once about any of the British peas, Canadian peas, Australian peas, etc.
My mind was thinking liberal/conservative, not anything else.
I'm going to shut up now, lest I offend anyone else.
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duopenotti
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Post by duopenotti on Jul 22, 2014 19:05:11 GMT
I've met our Foreign Secretary Frans Timmermans only a few weeks ago. A kind and smart man! His speech at the UN was very good. A man on a mission, both at the UN and the EU. Right now our focus is to bring the victims home, identify and bury them. Tomorrow a plane will land at Eindhoven Airport with the first victims. They will be brought to a military complex where a large team is ready to identify them. But this process can cost months.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 22, 2014 19:35:05 GMT
I'm not saying you're socialist, just a lot more liberal than me. I've never seen an international pea that was as conservative as me, but maybe I'm wrong. All I meant by having a different world view than me is that you see things in a more liberal way than I do. The world "socialist" hasn't come to mind even once about any of the British peas, Canadian peas, Australian peas, etc. My mind was thinking liberal/conservative, not anything else. I'm going to shut up now, lest I offend anyone else. Oh, please don't shut up - you aren't offending anyone! We are just genuinely interested why this word seems to come up so much about Europe and I guess we thought you meant it the same way. Everyone is entitled to their opinion Jody and it really doesn't offend me as long as you don't mind if I disagree with you at times. I really would feel awful if you thought you had been run off because of not being able to speak your mind. Just don't call me horrible names or swear at me and we will be fine!! I have been doing some reading on what the word 'conservative' means to you - and I think now that I am beginning to see where you are coming from on certain things. We have conservative people here too Jody, maybe not quite with your beliefs but pretty similar but UK slanted. Honestly, I've learned a lot about American politics in the past few days!! You know the saying - it takes all sorts to make a world.
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