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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 31, 2014 21:56:11 GMT
That is what I mean though. War is not, nor has it ever been civilized. I think I heard that something like 100,000 civilians have died in Syria in the most recent conflict. Most are noncombatants yet we are not hearing the same kind of comments at large. Where do the Syrians go? The Ukrainians in the conflict zone? They are dying in even larger numbers, but the question of where do they go isn't asked? To answer your question from the UK point of view, the question of where they go is asked and reported in depth in the UK and I presume in the rest of Europe. The Syrian refugees are pouring across the border into Turkey, in the main, in their thousands and there are huge refugee camps there. We see pictures of the children and people, including casualties, in Syria and in the refugee camps in Turkey on our news almost every night, a lot of the children are without parents or family and showing the damage and stress of war. All the aid agencies are in Turkey and people from around Europe are helping out with humanitarian aid for these people and children. Our reporters also report from inside Syria. We also report on the Ukrainians in the conflict zone and the refugees from the conflict zone arriving in Ukraine with absolutely nothing. These reports are often shown alongside reports from Israel and the Gaza Strip. This is all shown as part of our TV news broadcasts every night, so we are well informed on the plight of the happenings in the trouble spots in the Mid East and Europe as well as around the world. But I think you may be misunderstanding my question. I have seen the reports from Syria (possibly some of the same ones you see because I also watch the BBC America news broadcasts) and am very aware of the humanitarian issues at hand. While the aid agencies are in place, and there is disparaging comments as to what led to the refugees fleeing their countries there is not the same vehemence and anger towards the Syrians as there is against Isreal. Even as angry as everyone is a Putin, and there are talks in the UN about sanctions, Isreal stills gets the bulk of the international ire. My question is why-historically speaking, that is not "normal."
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 31, 2014 22:28:29 GMT
To answer your question from the UK point of view, the question of where they go is asked and reported in depth in the UK and I presume in the rest of Europe. The Syrian refugees are pouring across the border into Turkey, in the main, in their thousands and there are huge refugee camps there. We see pictures of the children and people, including casualties, in Syria and in the refugee camps in Turkey on our news almost every night, a lot of the children are without parents or family and showing the damage and stress of war. All the aid agencies are in Turkey and people from around Europe are helping out with humanitarian aid for these people and children. Our reporters also report from inside Syria. We also report on the Ukrainians in the conflict zone and the refugees from the conflict zone arriving in Ukraine with absolutely nothing. These reports are often shown alongside reports from Israel and the Gaza Strip. This is all shown as part of our TV news broadcasts every night, so we are well informed on the plight of the happenings in the trouble spots in the Mid East and Europe as well as around the world. But I think you may be misunderstanding my question. I have seen the reports from Syria (possibly some of the same ones you see because I also watch the BBC America news broadcasts) and am very aware of the humanitarian issues at hand. While the aid agencies are in place, and there is disparaging comments as to what led to the refugees fleeing their countries there is not the same vehemence and anger towards the Syrians as there is against Isreal. Even as angry as everyone is a Putin, and there are talks in the UN about sanctions, Isreal stills gets the bulk of the international ire. My question is why-historically speaking, that is not "normal." It is indeed odd how there are outraged cries for Israel to stop, and ....crickets when Hamas is mentioned. Once again, a big double standard. And no one wants to admit it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 22:41:17 GMT
But I think you may be misunderstanding my question. I have seen the reports from Syria (possibly some of the same ones you see because I also watch the BBC America news broadcasts) and am very aware of the humanitarian issues at hand. While the aid agencies are in place, and there is disparaging comments as to what led to the refugees fleeing their countries there is not the same vehemence and anger towards the Syrians as there is against Isreal. Even as angry as everyone is a Putin, and there are talks in the UN about sanctions, Isreal stills gets the bulk of the international ire. My question is why-historically speaking, that is not "normal." It is indeed odd how there are outraged cries for Israel to stop, and ....crickets when Hamas is mentioned. Once again, a big double standard. And no one wants to admit it. Just FTR I want BOTH sides to stop. Period.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 22:45:47 GMT
crickets by who? silence from the people of this thread,the media, who?
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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 31, 2014 22:47:19 GMT
But I think you may be misunderstanding my question. I have seen the reports from Syria (possibly some of the same ones you see because I also watch the BBC America news broadcasts) and am very aware of the humanitarian issues at hand. While the aid agencies are in place, and there is disparaging comments as to what led to the refugees fleeing their countries there is not the same vehemence and anger towards the Syrians as there is against Isreal. Even as angry as everyone is a Putin, and there are talks in the UN about sanctions, Isreal stills gets the bulk of the international ire. My question is why-historically speaking, that is not "normal." It is indeed odd how there are outraged cries for Israel to stop, and ....crickets when Hamas is mentioned. Once again, a big double standard. And no one wants to admit it. Ah, but again, globally? Historically? This is more than a double standard.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 31, 2014 22:53:36 GMT
I wasn't implying that Israel didn't have the right to control THEIR border wherever that may be. I don't think they've declared where their border is with Palestine have they? Isn't that the reason it's being referred to as the occupied territories? I was referring to the fact that Gaza has no control over their own border. What other country in the world has to have permission from a neighbouring country to enter their own country....no one! We don't have to ask permission from our own border security to visit France....it's up to the the French who they let in into their own country not us. The system applies everywhere, you have one country's border agency at one point and the neighbouring border agency a little further on. It's not only Israel, I was including the Egyptian border in there too.......all borders into Gaza. If these were controlled by the UN it might work. Nothing is going to work if no one is prepared to try it. Maybe if other countries were living next door to people that wanted to wipe them off the map, they would control access just as closely. Trying to compare this situation to a "normal" country just doesn't work. I think it would be utter foolishness for the Israelis and Egyptians NOT to control access to Gaza - heck, just let any old terrorist and all the arms shipments they want in. How would the UN being in charge change any of that? It wouldn't. Maybe if the Palestinians weren't so busy trying to kill they would be able to control a lot more than their borders. Just think of all the good they could have done with all that money and effort spent on cement and tunneling - they could have built schools and hospitals and infrastructure. Instead they expended all that money and time on hate.
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
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Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 31, 2014 22:59:50 GMT
But I think you may be misunderstanding my question. I have seen the reports from Syria (possibly some of the same ones you see because I also watch the BBC America news broadcasts) and am very aware of the humanitarian issues at hand. While the aid agencies are in place, and there is disparaging comments as to what led to the refugees fleeing their countries there is not the same vehemence and anger towards the Syrians as there is against Isreal. Even as angry as everyone is a Putin, and there are talks in the UN about sanctions, Isreal stills gets the bulk of the international ire. My question is why-historically speaking, that is not "normal." My apologies if I misunderstood your question. I suppose the answer could be that the Israel/Palestine thing is pretty unique as far as conflicts go I guess and most people can see both sides but are saddened by the continuing humanitarian crisis there. Syria, Ukraine, and almost all other conflicts are nothing like that situation. However, there have been some pretty vehement protests at the Syrian embassy though before the Syrian diplomats were asked to leave the country. The Syrians don't fire over the Turkish border where the UN camps are, so once the refugees are in the camps they are safe from the violence. So, there is no reporting of huge numbers of casualties/deaths there for international opinion to condemn or at least get very concerned about. There is a lot of very vocal, political and active condemnation for the Syrian government but that reason can't be added to the list. Regarding Ukraine, Russia is being criticised for helping a break away pro Russian Ukrainian group in eastern Ukraine, not because Russia itself fired missiles at the plane or at people in Ukraine so again, a bit different. Again, a lot of very vocal and active criticism and political action against the Russians but no-one is being hurt on a continuing humanitarian crisis scale. Even the humanitarian crises in Africa haven't quite been the same as the Israel/Palestine situation. And with that, I am fresh out of ideas/suggestions to contribute and I am going to make a cup of coffee! Can I just point out here that I am suggesting vague reasons as to why Israel is 'getting the bulk of international ire' at the present time in order to try to answer a question in a debate, there is no political motive or meaning to anything I've said, nor am I stating my own views on the Israel/Palestine crisis in any way, shape or form! I will say that I would not like to be one of the diplomats trying to broker some sort of solution to the problem, the whole thing is just too complicated for me!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 23:05:43 GMT
Well I would have expected the UN to monitor what was going in if they were a peacekeeping force and in charge of the borders. You know just like any other border control. So what would be your suggestion then?
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 31, 2014 23:20:27 GMT
Palestinians have not given Israel any faith that the borders between them can be controlled reasonably by the Palestinian leadership. The PLO, Hezbollah, and now Hamas have all been 100% clear they won't settle for anything less than the complete destruction of Israel. They have waged terrorist war, jihad, and intifada over the past decades against Israel. If Israel was any more relaxed with their control over their borders, the country wouldn't exist at all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 23:32:53 GMT
Palestinians have not given Israel any faith that the borders between them can be controlled reasonably by the Palestinian leadership. The PLO, Hezbollah, and now Hamas have all been 100% clear they won't settle for anything less than the complete destruction of Israel. They have waged terrorist war, jihad, and intifada over the past decades against Israel. If Israel was any more relaxed with their control over their borders, the country wouldn't exist at all. And who suggested that they be controlled by Palestinian leaders?
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Post by jamieson on Jul 31, 2014 23:39:40 GMT
Not all Palestinians are members of Hamas.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 23:41:50 GMT
Why would Israel trust the UN enough to let them patrol the border? They haven't even been able to keep their buildings in Gaza from being used as weapons storehouses.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 23:47:23 GMT
Oh never mind, it's pointless!
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 31, 2014 23:54:16 GMT
crickets by who? silence from the people of this thread,the media, who? Some media for sure. The Huffington Post seems to me to have largely covered this conflict from a Palestinian perspective. As for people, read this thread and the other thread. Yes, a few people did speak against Hamas. Several said something once out of multiple posts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 0:31:55 GMT
crickets by who? silence from the people of this thread,the media, who? Some media for sure. The Huffington Post seems to me to have largely covered this conflict from a Palestinian perspective. As for people, read this thread and the other thread. Yes, a few people did speak against Hamas. Several said something once out of multiple posts. I would have thought that mentioning them once was enough. Everyone knows they're terrorists so why waste ones breath in giving them your time. The more air time you give terrorist the more jubilant they become.They thrive on publicity. As for the media I think it can work both ways. I've also seen multiple reports about the demonstrations being anti-semitic when in fact they are only pro Palestinian demonstrations.They had Jewish people joining in the demonstration in London. I didn't see many that reported that fact. I don't find a placard that says " Stop the bombing Israel" as being anti semitic. There is nothing about the Jewish people on that placard.Some media outlets need to separate the country from the people and the religion. Just because someone thinks that the Palestinians also have rights doesn't mean that they are anti Jewish. Others need to separate the Palestinians from Hamas. Would you take kindly to anyone suggesting that all Americans are racist because there are still members of KKK operating in certain parts, no of course you wouldn't, because it wouldn't be true. The same thing applies to Palestinians and Hamas.
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Post by jamieson on Aug 1, 2014 0:34:26 GMT
Just like the racism that occurred after 9/11. Not all muslims are terrorists.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 1, 2014 0:35:34 GMT
Not all Palestinians are members of Hamas. I never claimed they were. However, the government leadership in Gaza is Hamas. So unfortunately right now, Hamas is the leadership representing the Palestinians in Gaza.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 1, 2014 0:38:17 GMT
Just like the racism that occurred after 9/11. Not all muslims are terrorists. No, and nobody here is claiming such. But the Muslims that are a part of Hamas are terrorists. And Hamas is the governing leadership in Gaza. And Hamas is responsible for the terrorism used against Israel. And Hamas should be held responsible for the civilian deaths they have caused because of their misfired rockets and for turning safe civilian locations into military bunkers for storing and firing off rockets at Israel.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Aug 1, 2014 0:41:02 GMT
Funny how some of our British Peas don't say "stop the bombing Hamas". After all, they fired the first shot; broke at least two ceasefires and have been specifically targeting Tel Aviv and other civilian areas.
The only thing that saves Israeli citizens is their Iron Dome; Hamas is doing their damndest to kill them.
The fact that you're not pointing the finger at Hamas shows me, yes, you are Anti-Semetic. Am I surprised? Given Europe's Anti-Semetic history; not in the least. But your so-called humanitarian concerns certainly ring hollow.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 0:50:23 GMT
Funny how some of our British Peas don't say "stop the bombing Hamas". After all, they fired the first shot; broke at least two ceasefires and have been specifically targeting Tel Aviv and other civilian areas. The only thing that saves Israeli citizens is their Iron Dome; Hamas is doing their damndest to kill them. The fact that you're not pointing the finger at Hamas shows me, yes, you are Anti-Semetic. Am I surprised? Given Europe's Anti-Semetic history; not in the least. But your so-called humanitarian concerns certainly ring hollow. Didn't take you long to get back to your old self did it Lauren!
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 1, 2014 0:55:34 GMT
dotty, while her statement is strong, perhaps it's understandable why Lauren, who is Jewish, would hold such an opinion.
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Post by jamieson on Aug 1, 2014 0:57:44 GMT
Not all Palestinians are members of Hamas. I never claimed they were. However, the government leadership in Gaza is Hamas. So unfortunately right now, Hamas is the leadership representing the Palestinians in Gaza. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm speaking to you directly.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 1, 2014 1:04:50 GMT
I never claimed they were. However, the government leadership in Gaza is Hamas. So unfortunately right now, Hamas is the leadership representing the Palestinians in Gaza. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm speaking to you directly. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to respond to your statement. My response is still valid whether you directed your statement at me or at anyone else who supports Israel. Nobody is equating all Palestinians as being members of Hamas. However, Hamas is representing Palestinians in this situation since they are currently the leaders of the Palestinians in Gaza. Hamas is responsible for the terrorism against Israel. Hamas is also responsible for the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians they used as shields for their rockets and martyrs for propaganda.
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scrappinmama
Drama Llama
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Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Aug 1, 2014 2:19:38 GMT
I hate that we can't say we feel compassion for the victims, without being made to feel like we are anti Semitic. I'm angry that Hamas is using innocent people to hide behind. And I'm angry that Israel is killing innocent people. I'm angry that innocent people have to die in any war. (I don't mean to single you out scrappinmama - just using your quote as it's the most recent.) Where are people being called anti-semitic? I haven't seen anyone on the threads I've read calling out people for being upset at the loss of life. It IS terribly sad that people have died. No one disputes that - I feel just as sorry as you do. What I have seen is people who are trying to put some context out there and questioning why rockets and missiles going one direction don't seem to be as inflammatory as those going in the other. Is there disagreement about why that is? Sure. But, who's calling names? I've heard it in the media when referring to protests, on twitter. I'm not one who feels that one side of this is 100% right. I think Israel's hand has been forced here. But I also think they are playing right into Hamas and their plan to make Israel look bad.
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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 1, 2014 2:50:12 GMT
Some media for sure. The Huffington Post seems to me to have largely covered this conflict from a Palestinian perspective. As for people, read this thread and the other thread. Yes, a few people did speak against Hamas. Several said something once out of multiple posts. I would have thought that mentioning them once was enough. Everyone knows they're terrorists so why waste ones breath in giving them your time. The more air time you give terrorist the more jubilant they become.They thrive on publicity. As for the media I think it can work both ways. I've also seen multiple reports about the demonstrations being anti-semitic when in fact they are only pro Palestinian demonstrations.They had Jewish people joining in the demonstration in London. I didn't see many that reported that fact. I don't find a placard that says " Stop the bombing Israel" as being anti semitic. There is nothing about the Jewish people on that placard.Some media outlets need to separate the country from the people and the religion. Just because someone thinks that the Palestinians also have rights doesn't mean that they are anti Jewish. Others need to separate the Palestinians from Hamas. Would you take kindly to anyone suggesting that all Americans are racist because there are still members of KKK operating in certain parts, no of course you wouldn't, because it wouldn't be true. The same thing applies to Palestinians and Hamas. I don't think that once is enough, especially when couched in generalities such as saying that both sides need to stop. Talking about Israeli strikes and ignoring Hamas's rockets is not even-handed, IMO. We must agree to disagree. As far as the protests, some demonstrations have been violent-in France, for example. Others have not. And of course I don't think that most Europeans are anti-Semitic. That would be ridiculous. And It seems to me that most people have tried to separate Palestinians from Hamas in their posts.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Aug 1, 2014 3:03:30 GMT
Bite me Dotty. When you make anti-semetic comments I'm going to call you on it. I notice you didn't deny anything I said, either about Hamas or your ignoring their attempts to kill Israelis; non stop. Where is your compassion? Your humanitarianism? Oh yes, i forgot, that doesn't extend to Jews. Just as you ignore the fact that Israel has agreed on three separate occasions to a cease-fire to let those in Gaza receive humanitarian aid. A cease-fire that Hamas has broken even when it was meant to help their people. So you just go on with your pretending to be so compassionate. And forgive me if I don't give a crap what you think about my posts.
And maybe while you're calling for Israel to stop, you might bring yourself to give a moment of thought to I95 and other Israelis in bomb shelters because Hamas, unlike Israel is intentionally aiming for civilians in Israel. Maybe we'll see you calling for Hamas to stop...then again, maybe not
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 1, 2014 3:41:06 GMT
I've heard it in the media when referring to protests, on twitter. I'm not one who feels that one side of this is 100% right. I think Israel's hand has been forced here. But I also think they are playing right into Hamas and their plan to make Israel look bad. So how should Israel respond to Hamas? Hamas has spent 90 million dollars building tunnels to send terrorists into Israeli neighborhoods. They fire rockets at Israel daily- indiscriminately so that they can take out as many Israeli civilians as they can. How should Israel respond to this? Let it go? Not return fire because it might be a location where Hamas has planted civilians to become martyrs? Let Hamas make martyrs of Israeli children instead and parade their broken bodies all over the media to garner international sympathy?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 3:46:59 GMT
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm speaking to you directly.
That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to respond to your statement. My response is still valid whether you directed your statement at me or at anyone else
Holy shit...I thought this was a message board for discussion. This is at least the second time in this thread there's been some issue taken when quoting someone else. Didn't we quote others at 2peas? Why is this all the sudden such a problem? If people don't want people quoting them as part of an ongoing discussion, maybe they shouldn't post? Are we not supposed to quote people?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 3:48:55 GMT
Frankly, I don't think Israel much cares what people think of them or care if others think they "look bad". I think Israel is so used to having to take care of themselves...on their own...and they can't be bothered worrying about what others think. And honestly, who could blame them?
And in regards to the UN stepping in and doing something? Seriously? The UN couldn't find its own ass with a flashlight. The UN is worthless.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 3:54:19 GMT
I've heard it in the media when referring to protests, on twitter. I'm not one who feels that one side of this is 100% right. I think Israel's hand has been forced here. But I also think they are playing right into Hamas and their plan to make Israel look bad. So how should Israel respond to Hamas? Hamas has spent 90 million dollars building tunnels to send terrorists into Israeli neighborhoods. They fire rockets at Israel daily- indiscriminately so that they can take out as many Israeli civilians as they can. How should Israel respond to this? Let it go? Not return fire because it might be a location where Hamas has planted civilians to become martyrs? Let Hamas make martyrs of Israeli children instead and parade their broken bodies all over the media to garner international sympathy? Israel is supposed to do nothing. Hamas may stop...or they may not...but it doesn't matter. Israel is expected to have a humanitarian war, while Hamas can continue to store stockpiles of weapons and bombs in schools, hospitals, private homes...shuttling their terrorists around in ambulances. It's cool, really. All of the expectations for decency are on Israel all while nothing decent is expected from Hamas.
Sounds totally legit.
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