BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
|
Post by BarbaraUK on Aug 1, 2014 19:40:27 GMT
Funny how some of our British Peas don't say "stop the bombing Hamas". After all, they fired the first shot; broke at least two ceasefires and have been specifically targeting Tel Aviv and other civilian areas. The only thing that saves Israeli citizens is their Iron Dome; Hamas is doing their damndest to kill them. The fact that you're not pointing the finger at Hamas shows me, yes, you are Anti-Semetic. Am I surprised? Given Europe's Anti-Semetic history; not in the least. But your so-called humanitarian concerns certainly ring hollo Lauren - I'm sure you're proud of yourself that you have the ability to sink so low in your argument. I didn't deny anything as I have nothing to deny....simple. And maybe, while you are reducing yourself to some lowlife member of the human race. You might also bring yourself to be thankful that people like my Grandfather, who never saw his 9 month old daughter ( my mother) sacrificed their life on the way to free the people from Belsen to give you the freedom to call his grand-daughter anti semitic. Yeh! you must be really proud of yourself. I wonder if he would think it was worth the sacrifice though. I can only agree with Dotty on this, she has said what I was struggling to put together. My father was very badly injured in that war in the same area fighting towards the same object and I too wondered how he would feel about me being called anti semitic and I too wonder if he would think it was worth the years of pain and suffering.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Aug 1, 2014 19:46:36 GMT
Incidentally, as much as some of you Brits can get me PO'ed, I do want to acknowledge that the soldier who was kidnapped this morning is a dual Israeli/British citizen, and for that, I'm sorry. He's a 23 year old kid, a year younger than my son, and he's not in for a good time. I hope the Israelis find him before he's tortured or killed.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Aug 1, 2014 19:50:27 GMT
What would you like us to do, Liz?
|
|
BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
|
Post by BarbaraUK on Aug 1, 2014 20:00:01 GMT
Incidentally, as much as some of you Brits can get me PO'ed, I do want to acknowledge that the soldier who was kidnapped this morning is a dual Israeli/British citizen, and for that, I'm sorry. He's a 23 year old kid, a year younger than my son, and he's not in for a good time. I hope the Israelis find him before he's tortured or killed. Even if he wasn't dual Israeli/Brit I would still be hoping and praying that the kidnapped soldier be found swiftly and before any real harm can come to him. I feel extremely saddened for his family both Israeli and Brit, they must be going through an awful time now waiting for news. I couldn't believe this had happened today of all days when I heard it on the news this morning!
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 8, 2024 20:22:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 20:01:31 GMT
Incidentally, as much as some of you Brits can get me PO'ed, I do want to acknowledge that the soldier who was kidnapped this morning is a dual Israeli/British citizen, and for that, I'm sorry. He's a 23 year old kid, a year younger than my son, and he's not in for a good time. I hope the Israelis find him before he's tortured or killed. I hope so too. I didn't realize he had dual nationality though so thanks for that info. But it wouldn't matter anyhow,he's someone's son whatever country they come from.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Aug 1, 2014 20:02:57 GMT
Oh please, you were flinging insults long before I got down into the gutter with you. If you think that accusing Israel and Israelis, of which I'm one, of committing genocide and making unbridled, indiscriminate attacks on Gaza is not insulting, then you really are an idiot, and I have no patience with stupid people.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Aug 1, 2014 20:07:25 GMT
We are all praying for him, and his family. Usually when you know he's one of your own, you feel a little more protective towards him. I know when it's an Israeli/American who is captured, or killed, it feels like a double whammy to me.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 8, 2024 20:22:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 20:27:43 GMT
I-95 - Can I ask if,as an Israeli/American, will your son be conscripted into the Israeli army? I always feel a bit more for those youngsters. I know the risks are the same for any soldier but the conscripted ones are not there by choice in the same way as someone that has chosen to make the army their career. IYKWIM
|
|
conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
|
Post by conchita on Aug 1, 2014 20:42:11 GMT
Thanks for the further info, dottyscrapper. I'm interested that you say it was mostly Palestinians and possibly other Arabs living in Britain at the protest? So, not a large percentage of British people? Believe me, there is anger and regret here about the Iraq war, too. Many of us never wanted to go in. I just searched for U.S. anti-Hamas protests and found this one link. It's from last weekend and there is mention in a photo caption of both pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli demonstrations being held across the country. We don't have the same kind of speech laws. There wouldn't be any legal impediment to an anti-Hamas protest here, but I don't know specifically what's being said at these rallies. Lucy, also wanted to mention that the majority of the protesters here are naturalized German citizens from Turkey. Germany has also taken in Syrian refugees and there's a large group in Berlin that have been causing a lot of issues. There was a protest a couple weeks back where death threats and hate speech occurred. The polizei and German citizens respect your right to protest but not to incite violence or speak hatred against any group. So Angela Merkel has been very vocal in denouncing those acts. They've also been raising the presence of polizei during the rallies. Germans like to keep things balanced so there've been pro-Israel supporters protesting at the same time.
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Aug 1, 2014 20:44:59 GMT
I can't help but be a little bit stunned when I read something like this. So it's okay for Hamas to kill innocent people -- both their own and Israelis -- as long as they are the underdog? SMH.
|
|
conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
|
Post by conchita on Aug 1, 2014 20:49:10 GMT
"There will be a planned Pro-Palestinian protest in Paris on Saturday. There could be as many as 50,000 people in attendance at the Place de la Republique. Last week's demonstration in Paris was approximately 4,500 people and it resulted in property destruction, minor injuries and more than 60 arrests. "
That was just in my newsfeed today.
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Aug 1, 2014 21:06:38 GMT
I just searched for U.S. anti-Hamas protests and found this one link. Lucy, there was indeed a pro-Israel rally held here in Denver last weekend. Both Craig Silverman and Dan Kaplis are attorneys here and co-hosted a talk show for years on another radio station at drive time. They were very popular and had opposing viewpoints on several major issues (including politics - although Craig has since reversed his opinion on some things), but were always fascinating to listen to. I'm not a group or rally person, but I would loved to have gone to that one, as clearly it is a very important issue to me. (The nerve damage in my leg prevents me from standing for very long.) A friend of mine went and reported back that it was for the most part peaceful, although he was disgusted by the way the Palestinians used their children by smearing fake blood on them. (We both agree - take your kids, but don't use them as props.) There were also some obvious ringers in the crowd with signs trying to make the pro-Israeli group look bad, but that's par for the course with a lot of rallies.
|
|
lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29
Location: London Town
Jun 26, 2014 11:09:28 GMT
|
Post by lynm on Aug 1, 2014 21:30:57 GMT
Just to clear up one little point regarding the protests around the UK not containing many British people, I can obviously only speak about the ones I attended in London but there were people there from all walks of life and all nationalities, certainly all around me, there were loads of Brits, students etc, in my own little group of friends we numbered 5 Brits, 1 Scottish, 2 French, 1 American and 3 Irish (2 of our party were Jewish) we certainly didn't feel we were in the minority it was pretty even mix where we were. The following is a small part of a news report on one of them....... The depth and diversity of the support for the Palestinian cause amongst the British people was reflected in the march and rally for Gaza that took place in central London on Saturday 26th July. Police estimate that 45,000 marched from the Israeli embassy in Kensington to Parliament Square, but the actual number looked much higher, as protestors packed out the Square, Whitehall and Westminster Bridge. Speakers included rock stars Brian Eno and Dave Randall, the children’s poet and author, Michael Rosen, the comedian Jeremy Hardy, and the journalist Owen Jones. The unions were also represented, with speakers from Unite (Andrew Murray), the PCS (Zita Holbourne), Unison (John Gray), the NUT (Alex Kenny) and the TUC (Lesley Mercer). The range of organisations represented by speakers was also broad. The massed crowds heard from Palestine Solidarity Campaign (Sarah Colborne and Hugh Lanning), CND (Bruce Kent), NUS Black Students Campaign (Malia Bouattia), Palestinian Forum in Britain (Ziad Elaoul), Stop the War (John Rees), Friends of Al Aqsa (Ismail Patel), Muslim Association of Britain (Mohammed Kozbar), Jews for Justice for Palestinians (Glyn Secker) and the British Muslim Initiative (Ayoub Bsiso). Walter Wolfgang, the 91-year-old German born British socialists and peace activist addressed crowds outside the Israeli embassy. As you can see quite a diverse group
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 8, 2024 20:22:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 21:43:05 GMT
What newspaper was that report in Lymn. Didn't see any of those names in the reports I read.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Aug 1, 2014 21:58:19 GMT
I-95 - Can I ask if,as an Israeli/American, will your son be conscripted into the Israeli army? I always feel a bit more for those youngsters. I know the risks are the same for any soldier but the conscripted ones are not there by choice in the same way as someone that has chosen to make the army their career. IYKWIM Every Israeli citizen is required to serve in the military....except those who are exempt because they are Israeli Arabs, ultra Orthodox or have some medical condition that prevents them from serving. My son was born in the United States and is not an Israeli citizen, so he would not be required to serve in the IDF. Both boys and girls do National Service. They go straight from high school to the military. Boys service 3 years, girls serve 2, then they are in the reserves. They used to have to serve in the reserve units until men were 54 and women 48. That changed in 2008 (I think) to 40 for both sexes, although now women are excused from doing reserve duty after the birth of their first child.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 8, 2024 20:22:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 22:04:28 GMT
I-95 - Can I ask if,as an Israeli/American, will your son be conscripted into the Israeli army? I always feel a bit more for those youngsters. I know the risks are the same for any soldier but the conscripted ones are not there by choice in the same way as someone that has chosen to make the army their career. IYKWIM Every Israeli citizen is required to serve in the military....except those who are exempt because they are Israeli Arabs, ultra Orthodox or have some medical condition that prevents them from serving. My son was born in the United States and is not an Israeli citizen, so he would not be required to serve in the IDF. Both boys and girls do National Service. They go straight from high school to the military. Boys service 3 years, girls serve 2, then they are in the reserves. They used to have to serve in the reserve units until men were 54 and women 48. That changed in 2008 (I think) to 40 for both sexes, although now women are excused from doing reserve duty after the birth of their first child. Thank you.
|
|
lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29
Location: London Town
Jun 26, 2014 11:09:28 GMT
|
Post by lynm on Aug 1, 2014 22:24:10 GMT
What newspaper was that report in Lymn. Didn't see any of those names in the reports I read. it wasn't a newspaper report Dottyscrapper, I didn't want to post the link for fear of more accusations and name calling, you can find the full report on the website of the PSC website (the organisers of the march) I didn't post the entire article as some parts would be classed as inflammatory remarks by most posters in this thread and would no doubt be credited as coming out of my mouth. I just tried to post the facts of who was present, not what they said
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 8, 2024 20:22:06 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 22:50:24 GMT
What newspaper was that report in Lymn. Didn't see any of those names in the reports I read. it wasn't a newspaper report Dottyscrapper, I didn't want to post the link for fear of more accusations and name calling, you can find the full report on the website of the PSC website (the organisers of the march) I didn't post the entire article as some parts would be classed as inflammatory remarks by most posters in this thread and would no doubt be credited as coming out of my mouth. I just tried to post the facts of who was present, not what they said Thanks
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Aug 1, 2014 23:10:51 GMT
I-95 - Can I ask if,as an Israeli/American, will your son be conscripted into the Israeli army? I always feel a bit more for those youngsters. I know the risks are the same for any soldier but the conscripted ones are not there by choice in the same way as someone that has chosen to make the army their career. IYKWIM Every Israeli citizen is required to serve in the military....except those who are exempt because they are Israeli Arabs, ultra Orthodox or have some medical condition that prevents them from serving. My son was born in the United States and is not an Israeli citizen, so he would not be required to serve in the IDF. Both boys and girls do National Service. They go straight from high school to the military. Boys service 3 years, girls serve 2, then they are in the reserves. They used to have to serve in the reserve units until men were 54 and women 48. That changed in 2008 (I think) to 40 for both sexes, although now women are excused from doing reserve duty after the birth of their first child. I saw an interview this morning by a young man who is an American citizen who is getting ready to leave the US to join the IDF. I think what he said, if I am remembering correctly, was that if you are Jewish by birth, you are eligible to join the IDF regardless of your national citizenship. I meant to look it up after the interview (I was in the middle of a couple of things) but completely forgot until I read this.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 8, 2024 20:22:07 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 23:52:08 GMT
Every Israeli citizen is required to serve in the military....except those who are exempt because they are Israeli Arabs, ultra Orthodox or have some medical condition that prevents them from serving. My son was born in the United States and is not an Israeli citizen, so he would not be required to serve in the IDF. Both boys and girls do National Service. They go straight from high school to the military. Boys service 3 years, girls serve 2, then they are in the reserves. They used to have to serve in the reserve units until men were 54 and women 48. That changed in 2008 (I think) to 40 for both sexes, although now women are excused from doing reserve duty after the birth of their first child. I saw an interview this morning by a young man who is an American citizen who is getting ready to leave the US to join the IDF. I think what he said, if I am remembering correctly, was that if you are Jewish by birth, you are eligible to join the IDF regardless of your national citizenship. I meant to look it up after the interview (I was in the middle of a couple of things) but completely forgot until I read this. That may be true, but perhaps because Judaism is passed on from the mother...so I believe I-95's kids are not Jewish by birth. (since IIRC I-95 said that she was not Jewish)
|
|
|
Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 2, 2014 2:08:03 GMT
Acknowledging that disagreeing with Israel does not make one an anti-Semite would be a good start. That is an interesting request since no one actually ever said disagreeing with Israel is always anti-Semitic. Your assertion that Israel is not the underdog so they don't have a right to protect their citizens is ridiculous. Not only does that go against all reason, it is simply not even completely true. Hamas is backed by a lot of terrorist groups and their weapons come from some very scary sources. You are grossly underestimating the terrorist power Hamas holds.
|
|
|
Post by jamieson on Aug 2, 2014 2:36:29 GMT
Another excellent article: link
|
|
|
Post by jamieson on Aug 2, 2014 2:39:00 GMT
And, not unlike the direction these conversations take here: link
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Aug 2, 2014 3:07:48 GMT
I don't know Sarah, all I know and want is for it to stop. Neither side is listening to anyone. The majority of Palestinians are just pawns in this. Why don't they send a UN peacekeeping force in there then they can open the borders ( which is one of the demands that Hamas wants) Let the UN control the borders rather than Israel.It worked in Cyprus for years between the Greek Cypriots and the Turks. Palestine have no borders, don't control their land in any shape or form, they have no access via sea or air. Not just in Gaza but the West Bank too. No other country in the world has these restrictions. It's just a large open air prison to anyone that lives in Gaza and the country itself is split in two. It bothers me that if it carries on the way it's going then the West Bank will also flare and it really will become more of a blood bath than it is now. I don't knowwhat the answer is. I think I'm clutching at straws. The Israelis want this to stop. Hamas does not. That's the entire conflict. When you house women and children on top of the rockets you are using to bomb your neighbor, you know that your neighbor is going to try to destroy those rockets no matter who is near them. The people in Gaza - the women and children especially - are the pawns of the leaders who are living in luxury far removed from the fighting. Tell me how they are not held more accountable for these deaths than the people who are being rocketed? Where is the cry for the Egyptian border to be opened up? Where is the criticism of Egypt for trapping all these poor Palestinians?
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Aug 2, 2014 3:11:12 GMT
I don't know what the answer is. But I do know that what Israel is doing right now isn't working, so continuing to do it seems like insanity. What Hamas is doing clearly isn't working, so continuing to create war with Israel seems like insanity.
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Aug 2, 2014 3:30:54 GMT
Can I just point out here that I am suggesting vague reasons as to why Israel is 'getting the bulk of international ire' at the present time in order to try to answer a question in a debate, there is no political motive or meaning to anything I've said, nor am I stating my own views on the Israel/Palestine crisis in any way, shape or form! I appreciate the many posts from the UK contingent. I've gotten a much clearer understanding of what y'all have meant. <I just can't resist throwing in a little southernism with you guys.>
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Aug 2, 2014 3:56:38 GMT
... you fail to understand that the attitude of Israel that they're going to protect themselves no matter what the cost is not supported by everyone. And Israel has adopted that attitude and there are millions of people around the world who simply cannot get behind that attitude. ... I've read similar to this several times now, and I just can't get past it. Really. I just can't. You really think that the people who carved out a place in the desert because there was NO PLACE ELSE ON EARTH for them to make a home, and who did so while chanting NEVER AGAIN, 1) aren't concerned about the cost of protecting themselves and 2) that they are deceived into believing that the rest of the world is now supporting them? *edited for better clarification
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Aug 2, 2014 4:52:02 GMT
That is true, but Jewish, or not, if my kids had been born in Israel they would have been required to serve anyway. The young man who was planning to leave the US and join the IDF would have been making Aliyah ('returning' to Israel under the right of return) which would make him a citizen and eligible for National Service. My next door neighbor is from Sweden, not Jewish, but both her Israeli born, non-Jewish children have done their National Service, and are now in the reserves.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Aug 2, 2014 4:57:34 GMT
Acknowledging that disagreeing with Israel does not make one an anti-Semite would be a good start. I freely acknowledge that. What next? 5,000 people showed up at a pro-Palestinian rally in Tel Aviv a couple of weeks ago. I'm pretty sure they were disagreeing with Israel, and since the vast majority of them were Jewish, I doubt they consider themselves anti-Semitic.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 8, 2024 20:22:07 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 5:00:55 GMT
... you fail to understand that the attitude of Israel that they're going to protect themselves no matter what the cost is not supported by everyone. And Israel has adopted that attitude and there are millions of people around the world who simply cannot get behind that attitude. ... I've read similar to this several times now, and I just can't get past it. Really. I just can't. You really think that the people who carved out a place in the desert because there was NO PLACE ELSE ON EARTH for them to make a home, and who did so while chanting NEVER AGAIN, 1) aren't concerned about the cost of protecting themselves and 2) that they are deceived into believing that the rest of the world is now supporting them? *edited for better clarification 3) that Israel gives 2 shits what the world thinks of them for defending their citizens. If I were living in Israel, and my family and children were living in Israel, and I had bombs, missles mortar fire exploding over my head for YEARS, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't care in the least what a bunch of people in the USA, Great Britain or the rest of Europe think.
In addition, if any of our neighbors (Canada, Mexico, Central America, Cuba) began to toss rockets over the border and endangering American lives, I'd guess that America would not sit back and take it FOR YEARS. Why does anyone expect Israel to stop fighting and just take more of the same terrorism that they've already taken for years?
|
|