lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29 
Location: London Town
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Post by lynm on Aug 3, 2014 22:21:36 GMT
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Post by lucyg on Aug 3, 2014 22:25:18 GMT
Yeah, I'm really upset that Hamas started this war, too.  |
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Deleted
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Oct 8, 2024 22:22:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 22:29:20 GMT
I hope those in the UK are as equally horrified at the moral outrage and the criminal act of using schools, hospitals, private homes as storage facilities, meeting locations and cover for launching attacks with weapons by Hamas. Let us not forget that moral outrage. That's where this lies.
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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 3, 2014 22:30:08 GMT
Horrific.. I do hope that Hamas decides to cease-fire soon.  |
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Post by Skypea on Aug 3, 2014 23:54:12 GMT
Aug 1, 2014 at 9:15am Dani-Mani said:
well, just how do you feel about all those who call Israel 'little Satan' (and the US 'big Satan') and vowing to wipe them (both) off the face of the earth? How about Iran? Hamas is = to Al Q or ISIS.
How about the US defending itself against Al Q? Do you think terrorists fight fair?
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 4, 2014 2:04:42 GMT
Apparently not, Karalynn [Katy]. Apparently not. I know of no other nation who, when they've pinpointed the location from which their terrorist enemies have been launching rockets at them, will call the homes, send text messages to individuals, and drop fliers in the streets alerting them to evacuate. If Hamas didn't use hospitals, schools, and civilians' homes as their weapons nests and launch rockets from those locations at Israel, those innocent people would be alive today. Israel didn't start this war, but I don't blame them for finishing it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 2:09:19 GMT
Those poor, poor Palestinians. Dancing in the streets on 9/11/2001
edited to add...anyone still think that the Palestinians are too naïve to understand what them electing Hamas means? If the United States were within reach of their shitty rockets, Israel would be safe because they'd be lobbing them at us. |
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 4, 2014 2:22:16 GMT
I get upset watching their reaction to the tragedy that happened here that day. It's so disgusting. However- the children that Hamas has sacrificed as martyrs to protect their weapons and parade their tiny broken bodies around for propaganda to make Israel look evil- those children weren't the ones dancing in the streets that day and they didn't deserve to die. I just keep going back to the saying- there won't be peace until Hamas loves its children more than it hates Israel. Hamas has declared they love death more than the Jews love life. Their motivation is clear. They're willing to bury their own babies if it means they can hurt Israel. |
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Post by I-95 on Aug 4, 2014 9:35:48 GMT
No, the children dying in Gaza in the current conflict are not the ones who were dancing in that video, but add 13 years to the ages of the dancing children, and you get adults who are parading the dead babies before the International press, or pulling the trigger on the missiles aimed at Israel. When you encourage 10 year old children to cheer over the deaths of the 911 victims, is it any wonder they grow up to be adults who have no conscience about death at all, as long as Israel or the United States suffers for it? They think it's a small price to pay to have world opinion on their side. To be a martyr for Allah is something they cherish. The families of dead children are well compensated for their loss. Their families get better housing, higher social status, are admired and praised for their sacrifice. Not something Westerners can wrap their heads around at all.
There are extremists in Israel who teach their children to hate too. I simply don't know how you stop people from doing that. Not when you have generations of ingrained hatred on both sides. It does not bode well for peace.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,402
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Aug 4, 2014 10:31:56 GMT
I hope those in the UK are as equally horrified at the moral outrage and the criminal act of using schools, hospitals, private homes as storage facilities, meeting locations and cover for launching attacks with weapons by Hamas. Let us not forget that moral outrage. That's where this lies. I don't generally join in this type of thread. I'm not clever enough, but, yes GAJenny, we are. I don't personally know anyone who isn't. Even a devout muslim friend has said that it is an abomination, and totally the opposite of what true Islam teaches. |
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Deleted
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Oct 8, 2024 22:22:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 12:04:22 GMT
I get upset watching their reaction to the tragedy that happened here that day. It's so disgusting. However- the children that Hamas has sacrificed as martyrs to protect their weapons and parade their tiny broken bodies around for propaganda to make Israel look evil- those children weren't the ones dancing in the streets that day and they didn't deserve to die. I just keep going back to the saying- there won't be peace until Hamas loves its children more than it hates Israel. Hamas has declared they love death more than the Jews love life. Their motivation is clear. They're willing to bury their own babies if it means they can hurt Israel. My point is...that is the kind of hatred they raise their children with. It is that hatred that has them voting to put a terrorist organization in power. They celebrate death. Israeli death. American death. It makes no difference. |
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Post by katieanna on Aug 4, 2014 12:52:55 GMT
In regards to the bombing of ambulances and hospitals being the most cowardly thing to do...I disagree. I think Hamas USING ambulances and hospitals, thus jeopardizing all of those innocent people in need of help is the most cowardly thing to do. But we're probably going to disagree because it's only Israel that you find fault with. You want Israel to just stop...but the thing is, Hamas will not stop. Israel is not allowed to defend itself. I too am horrified at civilian casualties. This won't stop until Israel is wiped off the map...Hamas has said so themselves. Hamas LIVES for war. Hamas LIVES to kill. I can't remember how far I'd read through the other thread (it's been several days since I've visited 2Peas) and I've only read a few posts in this one, but I think the crux of the whole conversation can be summed up in the post above. Israel is not out to kill anyone; it's simply trying to defend itself against the aggression of enemies who want to destroy her. Quite frankly, I'm sick of the media focusing on the tragedies that Israel is perpetrating, rather than focusing on Hamas that indiscriminately uses its own citizens as shields and propaganda to make the world "feel sorry for them." It IS a tragedy for the civilians who are suffering unspeakably through all this - but if you want to blame anyone, blame HAMAS. I think it's about time that the UN deals with HAMAS if they really want to tackle the problem at all. gajenny - I hope your son's tests came back negative. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 13:01:19 GMT
You keep on saying this Katy,time and time again! Do you have any proof of this or are you just repeating what you hear/read others say? Perhaps you can link me to independent proof that the use of civilians as "human shields" is actually happening since this conflict started at the beginning of July. I've tried looking for it and I can only find reports of the two incidence at the EMPTY UN schools that the UN reported on.As pointed out they were actually empty and not in use at the time. So no civilians that could be used as shields there. I would repeat, I'm only interested in independent reports and not to Pro Israeli blogs/websites/videos doctored or otherwise or for that matter Pro Palestinian ones either. That only gives one person's word against another,each working towards their own agenda. I find this report by Amnesty International interesting. You might want to read ALL of the report,it covers quite a few topics relevant to what is going on at the present time in Gaza. In the meantime this is what they have to say about the "human shield" use or lack of. The question is in bold on their website. Storing and firing munitions in a built up area does not equate to using civilians as "human shields" It's interesting to also note that the headquarters of the IDF is also situated in the heart of Tel-Aviv. Whilst I agree that there might not be munitions stored there ( I don't know) you can't deny that it would be a target, purely by what it represents, to any hostile organisation. I'm sure Amnesty has expert lawyers that understand the international humanitarian law far better than you or me. If their conclusion doesn't absolve Israel of their responsibility then we should all start questioning why these children and innocent civilians are being killed. This interview with Llan Pappe who incidentally, in an Israeli historian, also throws a lot of light on a number of topics. In particular, the murder of the three teenagers that started off this conflict......you should read it! Llan PappeNo one is denying Israel the right to defend itself but to do so in such a disproportionate way with a flagrant disregard to human rights together with the acceptance to the killing of so many civilians,particularly children is just plain wrong. That is the reason that so many countries in the rest of the world are speaking out. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 13:04:17 GMT
gajenny I wish nothing but the best for your DS. My prayers go out to him and you, Mom. Please post on a main thread his results. Until then major Duah for your whole family! (Duah is supplication).
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scrappammie
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by scrappammie on Aug 4, 2014 15:29:15 GMT
Dotty,
You need to read this portion of the text from Amnesty International you provided again:
Didn't you answer your own question?
The best indicator of current and future behavior is what has been done in the past (and, according to that document is still current practice.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 15:47:09 GMT
For Dotty...report from UNRWA's own homepage reporting weapons being stored...JULY 17, 2014 Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law. This incident, which is the first of its kind in Gaza, endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA’s vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza. Immediately after discovery, the Agency informed the relevant parties and successfully took all necessary measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA has launched a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident. UNRWA has strong, established procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and routine inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes. UNRWA will uphold and further reinforce its procedures. Palestinian civilians in Gaza rely on UNRWA to provide humanitarian assistance and shelter. At all times, and especially during escalations of violence, the sanctity and integrity of UN installations must be respected. Vacant school, you argue? But it's these vacant schools that provide humanitarian SHELTER. You satisfied now? All of the reports of Hamas using hospitals are from blogs or Israeli sources...and I'm pretty sure you won't accept those. UNRWA |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 15:54:45 GMT
And one more for Dotty...second condemnation for second incident of Hamas storing weapons at a vacant school...ironically enough, right in between two other schools housing 1,500 displaced people. July 22, 2014 Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets. The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons. UNRWA strongly and unequivocally condemns the group or groups responsible for this flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law. The Agency immediately informed the relevant parties and is pursuing all possible measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA will launch a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident. UNRWA has reinforced and continues to implement its robust procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and regular inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes. Palestinian civilians in Gaza rely on UNRWA to provide humanitarian assistance and shelter. At all times, and especially during escalations of violence, the sanctity and integrity of UN installations must be respected. www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 16:03:29 GMT
Here's an article that includes a quote from a reporter for the Washington Post that details the use of hospitals as "defacto headquarters for Hamas leaders". There's also an image of a masked man with a long rifle of some kind exiting the back of a UN ambulance.
www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/20683
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 16:05:57 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 16:06:34 GMT
That should keep Dotty busy reading, looking at photos, and watching video for a while.
It's not going to be enough though. There will be another argument.
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 4, 2014 16:54:46 GMT
@dottyscrapper said: Evidently not very hard. Here are reports from two online publications, which are, by the way, complete polar political opposites. Or gee, I don't know how about out of their own mouths? YouTube video in which they admit to using human shields and show people gathering on the roof of a house that was warned a bombing would come. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 17:05:48 GMT
Dotty, You need to read this portion of the text from Amnesty International you provided again: Didn't you answer your own question? The best indicator of current and future behavior is what has been done in the past (and, according to that document is still current practice.) I don't think you read all of it obviously! YOU need to read the article again. Did you miss this part of the statement referred to As explained above at the beginning of that statement: Here's what it said Amnesty International is aware of these claims, and continues to monitor and investigate reports, but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks
Storing munitions in built up areas is not using anyone as a human shield. Did you miss this part of the statement: In any case, public statements referring to entire areas are not the same as directing specific civilians to remain in their homes as “human shields” for fighters, munitions, or military equipment.So where is the proof that they are directing civilians to remain in their homes/building as " human shields" Oh wait,here is your quote that explains it allSo what you're saying is that because they,Hamas has done so in the past they must be doing the same thing now.So by your thinking and assessment, what has been done in the past can also be applied to Israel too then. UN report accuses Israeland here's the report link
So we can also assume that since Israel has used flechette bombs in the past that they are also using them now then! There are reports that Israeli forces have used flechettes in the current military operation in the Gaza Strip. What is Amnesty International’s position on the use of flechettes? Has the Israeli military used flechettes in Gaza before, and what were Amnesty International’s findings?Flechettes are 3.5cm-long steel darts, sharply pointed at the front, with four fins at the rear. Between 5,000 and 8,000 of these darts are packed into shells which are generally fired from tanks. The shells explode in the air and scatter the flechettes in a conical pattern over an area about 300m by 100m. Flechettes are designed to be used against massed infantry attacks or squads of troops in the open, and obviously pose a very high risk to civilians when fired in densely populated residential areas. Since Israeli forces launched their ground offensive on the Gaza Strip on 17 July, two leading Palestinian human rights groups in the Gaza Strip, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) and Al-Mezan Center for Human Rights, have reported cases in which civilians in Gaza have been killed and injured by flechette shells. Amnesty International has not yet been able to verify particular cases during the current hostilities, but has previously documented Israeli forces’ use of flechette rounds in the Gaza Strip, resulting in the killing of civilians, including children. For example, during Operation “Cast Lead”, Amnesty International found that Israeli forces used tank shells packed with thousands of flechettes on at least five occasions between 4 and 9 January 2009, in the north of Gaza and in a village south of Gaza City, killing several civilians, including a child, a woman and a paramedic. Flechettes are not specifically prohibited by international humanitarian law per se, however, they should never be used in densely populated areas, and their use in these cases during Operation “Cast Lead” violated the prohibition on indiscriminate attacks. Israeli use of flechettes in densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip during the current military offensive would also violate the prohibition on indiscriminate attacks, and could amount to a war crime. |
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lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29
Location: London Town
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Post by lynm on Aug 4, 2014 17:10:35 GMT
This....
Amnesty International is aware of these claims, and continues to monitor and investigate reports, but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks
and this...
Furthermore, international humanitarian law is clear that even if officials or fighters from Hamas or Palestinian armed groups associated with other factions did in fact direct civilians to remain in a specific location in order to shield military objectives from attacks, all of Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.
and this....
Storing and firing munitions in a built up area does not equate to using civilians as "human shields" It's interesting to also note that the headquarters of the IDF is also situated in the heart of Tel-Aviv. Whilst I agree that there might not be munitions stored there ( I don't know) you can't deny that it would be a target, purely by what it represents, to any hostile organisation.
You are all obviously only seeing and reading what you want to see and read when the rest of the civilised world sees it differently. It is sad that the Israeli propaganda machine is so effective.
Thank you Dottyscrapper for posting the article by Llan Pappe - it was very interesting and well worth reading, however, the sheeple will no doubt pick holes in that as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 17:20:30 GMT
Who's own mouths. Becky that statement doesn't indicate WHO said that Hamas wouldn't let them leave.
Israel told the Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UN shelter - was the Red cross at the shelter, it certainly doesn't say so in that sentence.
Hamas wouldn't let them leave - well that is the opinion of the writer as it doesn't confirm any other source.
And considering that you and a lot of others on this thread dismiss any links that questions the truth out there, on both sides or even any that suggests a different version of events than your (general) own I don't consider your link or GAJenny's independent.......The Blaze? independent? come on!
ETA come on Becky, you can do better than linking YouTube videos to prove your point surely. There are so many doctored videos out there and you of all people should know how easy it is to piece various bits of multiple videos together to make one.
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Deleted
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Oct 8, 2024 22:22:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 17:29:36 GMT
Dotty...EMPTY schools does not mean the buildings are empty. You're now solely focusing on human shields. You asked Katie above to document the use of hospitals and ambulances. I've done that.
If Hamas didn't use hospitals, schools, and civilians' homes as their weapons nests and launch rockets from those locations at Israel, those innocent people would be alive today.
You keep on saying this Katy,time and time again! Do you have any proof of this or are you just repeating what you hear/read others say?
You ridicule the Blaze...but what about my stories from terrorism info dot org and your very own UNRWA? Those aren't good enough either?
You refuse to see it. You're so hell bent on vilifying Israel...I wonder why that is? You and lynm are sucking from the teat of Hamas.
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 4, 2014 17:53:31 GMT
The Palestinians. And considering that you and a lot of others on this thread dismiss any links that questions the truth out there, I don't think you are reading very well. We aren't dismissing the links - we are just interjecting facts and challenging the assertions made within those links. For instance, in that latest interview you so highly recommend, the expert doctor just kind of forgot to mention the three days of increased shelling by Hamas before Israel starting answering their fire. ETA come on Becky, you can do better than linking YouTube videos to prove your point surely. There are so many doctored videos out there and you of all people should know how easy it is to piece various bits of multiple videos together to make one. A MEMRI-TV translation of a video has never been proven to be a doctored video or a mis-translated video, not even by Al Jazeera, or did I miss something? As others have mentioned, I don't believe you are interested in what anyone else is saying. |
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Aug 4, 2014 18:16:48 GMT
While I'm sorry that anyone has lost a relative in any war, is there truly anyone familiar with Britain's involvement in WW2 who believes that they entered the war to save or rescue Jews?  ? |
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Aug 4, 2014 18:19:28 GMT
The Palestinians. And considering that you and a lot of others on this thread dismiss any links that questions the truth out there, I don't think you are reading very well. We aren't dismissing the links - we are just interjecting facts and challenging the assertions made within those links. For instance, in that latest interview you so highly recommend, the expert doctor just kind of forgot to mention the three days of increased shelling by Hamas before Israel starting answering their fire. ETA come on Becky, you can do better than linking YouTube videos to prove your point surely. There are so many doctored videos out there and you of all people should know how easy it is to piece various bits of multiple videos together to make one. A MEMRI-TV translation of a video has never been proven to be a doctored video or a mis-translated video, not even by Al Jazeera, or did I miss something? As others have mentioned, I don't believe you are interested in what anyone else is saying. Becky I think some people ask questions just to argue and not because they're open to an alternate perspective. I'd like to say that *understanding* someone else's perspective doesn't mean you *agree* with them. Unfortunately they seem incapable of even attempting to understand. While I would say to not waste your time and energy on explaining, I know I am appreciative of the info you've shared. That doesn't make me a "sheeple" lynm, it makes me well informed. I'll refrain from calling you any names because you've more than shown where you stand in this discussion and what you think of others who disagree with you.  |
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 4, 2014 18:32:41 GMT
While I'm sorry that anyone has lost a relative in any war, is there truly anyone familiar with Britain's involvement in WW2 who believes that they entered the war to save or rescue Jews? ? Lauren, I have to say I think your comment is inappropriate. NO COUNTRY entered the war for that purpose alone. Many soldiers died or were injured in the liberation of the Jews, however, and I don't think that fact deserves this kind of comment. Especially since there is so much else to comment about!  |
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Post by I-95 on Aug 4, 2014 18:42:17 GMT
Here's what is true, regardless of whether Hamas is using human shields or not...
1. It is not necessary for Hamas to fire rockets from residential buildings in Gaza City.
2. There is plenty of open space in the Gaza Strip...please download Google Earth and take a look at the Gaza Strip yourself and you will see plenty of open space.
3. Amnesty International certainly does employ good attorneys, so does the IDF. Attorneys whose sole job it is to check planned targets and give their legal opinion of whether the target falls within the rules of engagement. This rules out any 'indiscriminate' attacks. It also rules out blatant war crimes, which Israel has been accused of numerous times.
4. Israel does warn civilians to get out of buildings that are targeted. If they (the civilians) did so, and went just 3 blocks away, chances are good they would not be killed. Staying in a targeted building pretty much guarantees it. Whether right, or wrong, whether you agree, or not, the terminology used by AI (all of Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.) are legally met by the leaflets, phones calls and texts.
5. Whether Hamas uses human shields, or not, what we all clearly know, is they do not build shelters for their citizens to find safe haven, and that's truly disgusting. Schools and hospitals are not ideal shelters, bomb shelters, with 14" reinforced concrete walls and steel doors are ideal. And it's not like they don't have the technology. We all know they built some well fortified tunnels, but no shelters for their children.
6. Yes, Israel has better weapons. I'm not sure how that factors into anything. War is not fair. The US didn't check to see who else had an atomic bomb before we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I don't remember reading about how anyone screamed that wasn't fair. Those two strikes killed 135,000 men, women AND children, instantly. Thousands more died from the results of those attacks, and the US did not send out warnings, we just slaughtered those people. 25,000 people died when Dresden was bombed, and they were civilians, children even. War is hell and people get killed. Stop acting like Israel is the only country who has ever killed a child during a war.
7. You want this to stop? Then go demonstrate against Hamas, because they can't win...so ask yourself why they're doing this? If you think it's over land, you are mistaken. This is a PR campaign for Hamas, pure and simple and they're willing to have their citizens die for NOTHING. If they want peace, let them come to the table for peace talks, stop firing rockets and talk. Talking never killed anyone. But they really don't want that either... witness the demands they made for a ceasefire....Build us an airport, build us a seaport, open the borders and let us into your country...as the Egyptian television reporter said 'People are dying and you're making demands?' No, they want Israel besmirched and so they parade their dead babies and the world blames Israel....win for Hamas. And please don't come back and say 'well Israel should stop first'....do you know how many times we've ignored their rockets, not retaliated for suicide bombers, done nothing when Israeli women and children have had their throats cut? Stop demanding that Israel turn the other cheek every.single.time. How about holding Hamas and the Palestinians responsible for their actions? If they will stop, we will stop, but right now we've had enough. Believe it or not, we're showing great restraint, because we could end it just like the Americans ended WW2. We won't, but if the situation were reversed, you can bet the Palestinians would.
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My original pea date was November 1999 and my number was 1803
