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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 18:43:59 GMT
How dare you suggest such a thing. I'm not hell bent of vilifying Israel either. If I wanted to really do that I have plenty of links that I could post on here to do that if I really wanted to. But the rest of the world are not idiots. You might be fed Israeli propaganda and swallow it without a second thought but some of us are not prepared to do that. Some of us care about the killing of innocent civilians while two damn stubborn leaders carry on as if it didn't matter. No one is prepared to stand up and be counted because they will be labelled anti-semitic or that we're supporting terrorist. It has nothing to do with the Jewish people it's the country of Israel and its far right leader that thinks he can carry on and not answer to anyone. Well it has to stop! The innocent civilians caught up in his little power trip have equally as much right to live as you or I. Have you not asked yourself why is that America is the only country that is not questioning the Israelis on their action in Gaza, The rest of us can't ALL be wrong. Think of it and come out from your bubble of thinking that Israel can do no wrong. They have too much of a history on the wrong doings since 1947 to hide under that cloak of innocence. Protecting their border,which incidentally they've never declared to anyone but themselves,and conveniently grows every time there's a conflict is one thing but to do it in such a disproportionate manner is something else. You've done nothing of the sort. You've linked You Tube videos from previous conflicts that cannot be confirmed or verified.If you think that yours are ligit,why not have a look at this twitter account then twitter.com/hashtag/DavidDovadia?src=hashThe UN confirmed that those schools were EMPTY.Empty means there was no one in them. What about the schools that Israel knew and had been told repeatedly that they were places of shelter? Don't they count? Are you accusing the UN of lying too. There are UN humanitarian personnel risking their lives out there,why would they lie? What would be their purpose to do so? They are also suffering You and others on this thread as well as the other thread have vilified EVERYTHING that has been posted on here that draws attention to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, no matter what the source was. You should be ashamed of yourself that you value any human life with such blatant disdain.
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lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29
Location: London Town
Jun 26, 2014 11:09:28 GMT
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Post by lynm on Aug 4, 2014 18:50:20 GMT
While I'm sorry that anyone has lost a relative in any war, is there truly anyone familiar with Britain's involvement in WW2 who believes that they entered the war to save or rescue Jews? ? Are you always this stupid or are you making a special effort today ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 19:35:26 GMT
Here's an article that includes a quote from a reporter for the Washington Post that details the use of hospitals as "defacto headquarters for Hamas leaders". There's also an image of a masked man with a long rifle of some kind exiting the back of a UN ambulance.
www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/20683
Ah the same reporter, William Booth, that reported that they'd dragged the Israeli soldier back into the tunnel leading to other reports that he's been kidnapped when in fact he'd been killed in action.He doesn't seem to have much of a record for accurate reporting. The militants grabbed 2nd Lt. Hadar Goldin, 23, and pushed him back through the tunnel, according to the Israeli account. Within minutes, the war was back.I don't know why you found the need to point out the reports regarding the two UN empty schools GAJenny. I'd already mentioned those in my post to Katycupcake.You must have missed this part of my post: I can only find reports of the two incidence at the EMPTY UN schools that the UN reported on .As pointed out they were actually empty and not in use at the time.Really I don't need to read to read them again, sorry that won't keep me busy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 19:38:54 GMT
That's rich. Pot calling kettle comes to mind here!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 20:24:05 GMT
Dotty will easily dismiss this because the source is "Israel Nation News" but it's a direct quote from the UN Secretary General. UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon "expresses his outrage and regret at the placing of weapons in a UN-administered school," a United Nations statement said last week. "By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities and anyone using the UN schools as shelter," the statement added. How would the placement of these weapons in EMPTY schools be "endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter"? Clearly, those "empty schools" aren't empty...because the UN Secretary General himself said so. www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/18350 [HASH].U9_qhJt0yUk
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 21:05:06 GMT
Dotty will easily dismiss this because the source is "Israel Nation News" but it's a direct quote from the UN Secretary General. UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon "expresses his outrage and regret at the placing of weapons in a UN-administered school," a United Nations statement said last week. "By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities and anyone using the UN schools as shelter," the statement added.How would the placement of these weapons in EMPTY schools be "endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter"? Clearly, those "empty schools" aren't empty...because the UN Secretary General himself said so. www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/18350 [HASH].U9_qhJt0yUk No I won't dismiss it Jenny. I've already read what he said when he said it last week. But he had far stronger words when an occupied school was bombed on Sunday in Jabaliya. There was another one a few days earlier at Rafah.There has been three in the last 10 days after the IDF had been repeatedly told that they were a place of shelter and had been given their exact location many many times.
WARNING - There are very graphic extremely distressing images on this link. It isn't from a blog or video but from the Mail on Line..
link to the report of the quote by Ban Ki-Moon
ETA I don't know why some of the post is in green but I don't seem to be able to change it for some reason.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 21:11:15 GMT
So you think his condemnation that UN shelters must be safe zones only refers to Israel strikes? Don't you think he also means safe zones as in no weapons stored there? You think his words are stronger against Israel...so you downplay his condemnation of Hamas because it's "far stronger" against Israel?
You're seeing what you want to see and either outright dismissing or downplaying the rest.
Just because "the rest of the world" has sharp condemnation for Israel now doesn't mean the rest of the world is right. Look at WWII...look at the entire world that sat back and allowed the holocaust to happen...you think that was "right" too because the rest of the world agreed?
Right or wrong isn't always a popular vote.
Edited to add...you wanted some sort of unbiased documentation that Hamas was using schools to house weapons. I gave you the words of the UN Secretary General and now you've moved on to something else. So was that unbiased enough? Hamas is indeed using schools WITH PEOPLE to house weapons, right? (you were so busy downplaying his statement because you feel he had a much harsher message against Israel) Can you admit it yet? Hamas is using schools with PEOPLE to house weapons? Children...aid workers, refugees. PEOPLE.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 21:24:31 GMT
So you think his condemnation that UN shelters must be safe zones only refers to Israel strikes? Don't you think he also means safe zones as in no weapons stored there? You think his words are stronger against Israel...so you downplay his condemnation of Hamas because it's "far stronger" against Israel?
You're seeing what you want to see and either outright dismissing or downplaying the rest.
Just because "the rest of the world" has sharp condemnation for Israel now doesn't mean the rest of the world is right. Look at WWII...look at the entire world that sat back and allowed the holocaust to happen...you think that was "right" too because the rest of the world agreed?
Right or wrong isn't always a popular vote.
Edited to add...you wanted some sort of unbiased documentation that Hamas was using schools to house weapons. I gave you the words of the UN Secretary General and now you've moved on to something else. So was that unbiased enough? Hamas is indeed using schools WITH PEOPLE to house weapons, right? (you were so busy downplaying his statement because you feel he had a much harsher message against Israel) Can you admit it yet? Hamas is using schools with PEOPLE to house weapons? Children...aid workers, refugees. PEOPLE. Oh for crying out loud! His words are much stronger because of the carnage that ensued. That's pretty obvious I would have thought. ETA I don't need to admit anything. Two empty of civilians, at the time, schools were found to have Hamas weapons in them. The UN found them. That is world news and yes, it should be condemned. I haven't moved on from anything. I was also quoting the Secretary General of the UN on more recent events. Is quoting him exclusive to you? Why are you so insistent on quoting a statement that is over a week old when far more distressing events have happened in the last few days. It's very interesting that you insist on going over old ground with the sole intention of disparaging whatever I say than to acknowledge the carnage that is happening in Gaza. So to re cover Katycupcake's statement...." that hospitals and ambulances were being used as human shields" - where is the official proof of that ? They,according to reports, have been used in the past but where is her proof that they are being used now. I can only find old videos being re posted to try and prove a point.Which she seems to do with every post. I haven't read ANY reports from the UN or any other reputable authority to confirm that this is happening now. I'm not disputing that it has happened in the past. What I did find was the Amnesty's report that has already been linked......they have no proof at this present time that it's happening now. So if Katycupcake says it's happening and she keeps repeating this time and time again, using it to blame the Palestinians for their fate why is it not being reported at the same time as these unoccupied schools are being reported on? You have to ask yourself are they still using ambulances and hospitals as human shields? If so, where is she getting her information from?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 21:24:54 GMT
Here's another question...Palestinians in Gaza also have a beef with Egypt over the strict Egyptian border. Why is Hamas not lobbing rockets over the Egyptian border?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 21:26:05 GMT
The carnage would not have ensued had Hamas not been routinely using schools, mosques, private homes to store and launch weapons.
Still at the feet of Hamas.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Aug 4, 2014 21:44:38 GMT
I'm sorry, Becky, but I disagree with you.
I was responding to comments like this .
This makes it sound like Britain entered the war to free the Jews from the concentration camps. This may have been one of the results AFTER the US entered the war, but Britain went to war against Germany because they had a pact with Poland that if Poland was invaded, they'd go to war. It had nothing to do with Jews being exterminated in Germany, Hungary or Poland. So I don't think it's inappropriate to respond to that comment by dottyscrapper the way I did. Besides, I never called her grandfather anti-semetic, but to imply that he sacrificed to save Jews is just plain incorrect.
As far as her comments about being grateful to her grandfather, IMO, If anything, she should be grateful to people like MY grandfather and the grandfathers of my friends who gave their lives to help Britain defeat Germany.
Then again, neither of our grandfathers has anything to do with her current disregard for Israel's safety and her insistence that Israel is at fault.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 22:11:06 GMT
ETA I don't need to admit anything. Two empty of civilians, at the time, schools were found to have Hamas weapons in them. The UN found them. That is world news and yes, it should be condemned. I haven't moved on from anything. I was also quoting the Secretary General of the UN on more recent events. Is quoting him exclusive to you? Why are you so insistent on quoting a statement that is over a week old when far more distressing events have happened in the last few days.
You can quote whomever you choose. But because you have a more recent quote, yours is more aghast and somehow more relevant than mine from only a week ago? I'm done banging my head against a wall for you. Maybe when Hamas shows up at your door to store their weapons in your home you'll decide you no longer wish to defend their atrocious actions. Hamas stores weapons in schools with CHILDREN, AID WORKERS, and REFUGEES. You're totally cool with that.
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 4, 2014 22:16:31 GMT
That's rich. Pot calling kettle comes to mind here! While I knew much of the information I've given in both threads, the claims against Israel that you and a few others have posted have caused me to do quite a bit of research as well. So it's been an interesting learning process for me. For instance, part of the pro-Palestinian platform is that Palestinians can not own land in Israel. Insofar as a portion of that land is owned by a private foundation and that no non-Jew (of any nationality) can own a portion of that land either, and that anyone can in fact buy or lease land owned either by the State of Israel or individually owned, I found that claim to be false. Palestinians are not being discriminated against as to land ownership in Israel. (See page 21 on the other thread.) On the other hand, concerning any land ownership of Israelis in Palestinian territories, I found that Wiki says "Land sales to Israelis are considered treason by the Palestinians." The claim that Israel is an apartheid state is something I find to be outright laughable. Arabs are about 20% of the population and they are integrated into every part of Israeli society including the ruling body of Knesset and their Supreme Court. Being as how the Palestinian mantra is "Death to Jews" and "Death to Infidels" somehow I don't think you will find the opposite to be true. People (you included) seem to be absolutely horrified by the blockade where Israel is very careful about who and what they allow into Israel. Being as how they are trying desperately to guard against terrorist attacks and deaths to their citizens, I don't find that horrifying at all. As a matter of fact, that very pertinent fact is never mentioned when the blockade is railed against in those articles and interviews you link. I wonder why? Because the argument against the blockade would collapse? And lastly I also find it interesting that when a horrifying incident of misbehavior on the part of an Israeli is mentioned - it is just that - an isolated and rare incident. And punished. On the other hand, terrorist attacks on Israel are so common and have been perpetrated by whatever Palestinian authority or group has been in charge for so long, that to enumerate them takes pages and pages. Those, on the other hand, are celebrated. All in all, quite a contrast. So yes, I'm listening ... and learning.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 22:33:46 GMT
I'm sorry, Becky, but I disagree with you. I was responding to comments like this . This makes it sound like Britain entered the war to free the Jews from the concentration camps. This may have been one of the results AFTER the US entered the war, but Britain went to war against Germany because they had a pact with Poland that if Poland was invaded, they'd go to war. It had nothing to do with Jews being exterminated in Germany, Hungary or Poland. So I don't think it's inappropriate to respond to that comment by dottyscrapper the way I did. Besides, I never called her grandfather anti-semetic, but to imply that he sacrificed to save Jews is just plain incorrect. As far as her comments about being grateful to her grandfather, IMO, If anything, she should be grateful to people like MY grandfather and the grandfathers of my friends who gave their lives to help Britain defeat Germany. Then again, neither of our grandfathers has anything to do with her current disregard for Israel's safety and her insistence that Israel is at fault. Whooooooh - listen I said nothing of the sort. My grandfather was killed , on the way to free the people from Belsen. If he wasn't on his way to Belsen things might have been very different. So yes he did sacrifice his life to save Jews.It happened TWO days before they got there. If you knew anything about the history of the war you would have realized that a good part of Europe had already been liberated by various allied troops by then. You might want to do a bit of bedtime reading Lauren and pause before you open your mouth in future. link
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admin
Chatterbox
Refupea #1 - jumping right out of the Pod and loving it!
Posts: 648
Location: testing testing...
Administrator
Jun 25, 2014 19:10:46 GMT
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Post by admin on Aug 4, 2014 22:38:24 GMT
I was asked to delete this thread a few days ago - as you see I declined, but it feels to me like it has now long passed the point of any constructive discussion, and I'm starting to wonder if it's time I locked it. I'd rather not do that either, but it doesn't seem as though there is any benefit in continuing the conversation in its current form.
Thoughts?
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Deleted
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Oct 9, 2024 0:36:10 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 22:52:25 GMT
I would not find fault with you locking the thread. If it were my board, I probably would've locked it a long time ago.
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scrappammie
Junior Member
Posts: 78
Jun 25, 2014 21:31:40 GMT
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Post by scrappammie on Aug 4, 2014 22:56:01 GMT
Dotty
We're going to have to agree to disagree with the interpretation of the statement you posted.
I think that the statement: "and available evidence indicates that they continue to do both during the current hostilities" Means that even though active examples have not been verified, that the evidence indicates it is happening.
While it's correct to assume that you and I have opposing viewpoints as to why the casualties are occurring, I don't think it's necessary that we ever agree on causality. We can agree to disagree, there, as well.
I do take umbrage, however at this:
I don't believe I've shown disdain for the loss of life anywhere on this thread, and I deeply resent the implication.
ETA: Didn't see the admin's post regarding a lock down of the thread prior to posting myself.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 4, 2014 22:56:32 GMT
I think Dottyscrapper said this:
Do you suppose, if some people are " be(ing) fed Israeli propaganda and swallow(ing) it without a second thought" that some people might be swallowing Hamas' propaganda without a thought too?
Some of you care about the killing of innocent children? Like the rest of us don't care? Is that what you're saying? What I'm really curious about is why now? Why, in this war, are you concerned for the children? This is the 3rd run in Israel and Hamas have had in the last 5 years. Children have been killed in all of them, but I don't recall this outrage from you, or anyone else the last two times. So what is about this rodeo has gotten you, and the rest of the world so focused on the innocent children? This is a serious question, not being snarky at all. I'm really curious as to why the world, in general, has suddenly become focused on the children of Gaza.
No one is prepared to stand up and be counted because you'll be labeled anti-Semitic? I actually don't think you're anti-Semitic, but you're always going to find a couple of people who will say you/they are. And if that's what people are afraid of, then they really shouldn't be in the conversation.
This has nothing to do with the Jewish people? It has to do with Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu? Israel is a country, made up of 75% Jewish people, they are one and the same. If you blame Israel, you blame the people who live here, and most of them are Jewish. Bibi, our illustrious leader....do you think he's acting alone? He's a politician for goodness sake, if the people of Israel were solidly opposed to his actions, do you think he'd be acting? There'd be riots in the streets! A recent poll of Israelis (Jews and non-Jews) showed Netanyahu had an 85% approval rating. Israelis are sick of Hamas and their constant threats.
I don't know who thinks Israel can do no wrong. That's an absurd sweeping statement. Just as absurd as saying you think Hamas can do no wrong. Even Israelis don't believe that. Nor do Americans. Why would you say such a thing? No country is always right, but Israel is doing what it thinks is best for Israel, at this moment in time. That may change tomorrow, or next week, or never, but nobody but Israelis get to decide that.
Now, saving the best for last.... "Protecting their border,which incidentally they've never declared to anyone but themselves,and conveniently grows every time there's a conflict is one thing but to do it in such a disproportionate manner is something else."
WTF are you talking about? The border with Gaza? The Border with Egypt? The border with Syria, or Lebanon, or Jordan? Never declared to anyone by ourselves? Are you talking about now? Today? Or 1967? Or 1948? Or 1973? and they grow EVERY TIME there's a conflict? Could you point out where they grew in 2012? in 2006? Or any other year we had a conflict? And what disproportionate manner? WTF do you mean? That's got to be one of the most crazy statements that's been made on either of the threads about Israel. It makes no sense at all. This is a little country. I think I would have noticed if our borders changed every time we got into a pissing match with someone. I can't wait to hear about our ever changing borders, that we keep secret from the rest of the world, and the massive land grabs we have had every time we have a war. And I want some of whatever it is you're smoking....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 23:01:32 GMT
It's an entirely up to you admin. What I will say is, that I'm not prepared to sit quietly and say nothing when being called something I find grossly offensive on a public message board. It's disappointing that people can't have a discussion without lowering themselves to that level because someone happens to disagree with the status quo.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Aug 4, 2014 23:07:01 GMT
I happen to agree with you, Admin. It's gone above and beyond any constructive discussion.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 4, 2014 23:16:06 GMT
I'd be unhappy if you locked the thread. I think a lot of useful information has transpired here. Yes, people are disagreeing, but isn't that what we do on NSBR threads? This one does not involve a one sided pile on of a single individual, it does not contain much in the way of bad language or vituperative prose. Like all major areas of dispute, when the time is right it will either die a natural death, or we'll all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. If people don't like the thread, they should quit reading, or posting, but for it to be locked or deleted is censorship. Especially since it hasn't risen (or sunk, depending on how you look at it) to a screaming bitchfest. While it's still bordering on civil, you should let it run its course. IMHO.
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lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29
Location: London Town
Jun 26, 2014 11:09:28 GMT
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Post by lynm on Aug 4, 2014 23:16:07 GMT
I happen to agree with you, Admin. It's gone above and beyond any constructive discussion. Especially when you open your stupid mouth Lauren
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 4, 2014 23:17:05 GMT
admin, I disagree that it should be locked/shut down. I sense it is coming to a natural end, the same way the other thread did. While there have been occasional flare ups, I think that for the most part it has been a civil discussion. I've certainly tried to keep it so. I hope I've succeeded in that.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 4, 2014 23:21:48 GMT
But before anything weird happens...Dotty, that was a nice article you link for Lauren to read. It brings a very human face to that war. TFS
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Aug 4, 2014 23:22:36 GMT
I happen to agree with you, Admin. It's gone above and beyond any constructive discussion. Especially when you open your stupid mouth Lauren It's disappointing that people can't have a discussion without lowering themselves to that level because someone happens to disagree with the status quo....dottyscrapper. Now where was that smirk icon???
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lynm
Shy Member
Posts: 29
Location: London Town
Jun 26, 2014 11:09:28 GMT
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Post by lynm on Aug 4, 2014 23:23:27 GMT
We are all adults and as such should be able to take part in this or not, I would hope it was not locked as well. We can agree on somethings
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Aug 4, 2014 23:23:57 GMT
But before anything weird happens...Dotty, that was a nice article you link for Lauren to read. It brings a very human face to that war. TFS Agreed
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 9, 2024 0:36:10 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 23:27:21 GMT
Lauren...it looks like you have another member of the fan club. LMAO
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admin
Chatterbox
Refupea #1 - jumping right out of the Pod and loving it!
Posts: 648
Location: testing testing...
Administrator
Jun 25, 2014 19:10:46 GMT
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Post by admin on Aug 4, 2014 23:29:01 GMT
I'd be unhappy if you locked the thread. I think a lot of useful information has transpired here. Yes, people are disagreeing, but isn't that what we do on NSBR threads? This one does not involve a one sided pile on of a single individual, it does not contain much in the way of bad language or vituperative prose. Like all major areas of dispute, when the time is right it will either die a natural death, or we'll all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. If people don't like the thread, they should quit reading, or posting, but for it to be locked or deleted is censorship. Especially since it hasn't risen (or sunk, depending on how you look at it) to a screaming bitchfest. While it's still bordering on civil, you should let it run its course. IMHO. As the person most directly affected, I'm giving more weight to your opinion than others, so I'll leave it alone for now. Re the bold though, I do think it's it was getting awfully close. FTR, locking a thread isn't censorship IMO - you can still read it all and you can always start another. It's just hitting a 'reset' button if you will.
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 4, 2014 23:30:32 GMT
Dotty, I just wanted to isolate that link, it's a part of a story that we must never forget.
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