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Post by scrapsotime on Aug 4, 2014 23:32:49 GMT
I haven't posted on this thread yet, but I have been reading it. I don't think it should be locked and I would be disappointed in this place if it was.
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Post by anxiousmom on Aug 4, 2014 23:35:20 GMT
People (you included) seem to be absolutely horrified by the blockade where Israel is very careful about who and what they allow into Israel. Being as how they are trying desperately to guard against terrorist attacks and deaths to their citizens, I don't find that horrifying at all. As a matter of fact, that very pertinent fact is never mentioned when the blockade is railed against in those articles and interviews you link. I wonder why? Because the argument against the blockade would collapse? I think it is ironic that there is an argument saying that the Israelis guarding their borders too stringently when so many (comment is a general observation, not intended to be directed at any single person) are crying that we aren't guarding our own closely enough.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 23:37:03 GMT
If threads start getting deleted or locked that will be the end of this board. It will die when it is ready to. To start monitoring it like that is ridiculous. I would be finding another board personally.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 4, 2014 23:38:17 GMT
Aug 4, 2014 11:43:59 GMT -7 dottyscrapper said:
you need to stop parroting what you hear 'everywhere else' and learn some truth about Israel.
Your line about 'it's not the Jewish people, it's the country' - screams how little you know about Israel. It IS about the people! and they are 90%+ (I heard 99%) in support of their leader. He is awesome! too bad we don't have one with the brass parts he has...
AND your comment about their borders growing after every conflict - REALLY? REALLY? Where do you get this crap? cause that is what it is! crap. They've been ending up with less land in recent decades. I pray they will NEVER give up another inch of their land.
Do you even know who is against Israel? What they have as their goal?
Why don't any of the Arab countries give the Palestinian people a piece of land? - they have huge amounts of land. Because it isn't really about that. Their goal is to destroy Israel - and the Jewish people.
Don't spout off about what you don't know.
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 4, 2014 23:42:17 GMT
FTR, locking a thread isn't censorship IMO - you can still read it all and you can always start another. It's just hitting a 'reset' button if you will. I would have taken you locking or deleting that thread as a sign that such topics were not welcome here, so I'm glad that you explained that you thought of it more as hitting the reset button. I would still disagree with your actions, but it's nice to know how you view that. I do appreciate you explaining why you take, or are considering taking, actions that you do instead of just ... doing it. As a person who has administrated discussion boards in the past, I must say, it's not an easy task.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 23:42:41 GMT
This.... Amnesty International is aware of these claims, and continues to monitor and investigate reports, but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks
and this... Furthermore, international humanitarian law is clear that even if officials or fighters from Hamas or Palestinian armed groups associated with other factions did in fact direct civilians to remain in a specific location in order to shield military objectives from attacks, all of Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.and this.... Storing and firing munitions in a built up area does not equate to using civilians as "human shields" It's interesting to also note that the headquarters of the IDF is also situated in the heart of Tel-Aviv. Whilst I agree that there might not be munitions stored there ( I don't know) you can't deny that it would be a target, purely by what it represents, to any hostile organisation.
You are all obviously only seeing and reading what you want to see and read when the rest of the civilised world sees it differently. It is sad that the Israeli propaganda machine is so effective. Thank you Dottyscrapper for posting the article by Llan Pappe - it was very interesting and well worth reading, however, the sheeple will no doubt pick holes in that as well. I'm wondering who/which countries you consider to be "the civilised world" ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 23:43:36 GMT
I think Dottyscrapper said this: Do you suppose, if some people are " be(ing) fed Israeli propaganda and swallow(ing) it without a second thought" that some people might be swallowing Hamas' propaganda without a thought too? Yes no doubt but I can assure you I'm not one of them
Some of you care about the killing of innocent children? Like the rest of us don't care? Is that what you're saying? What I'm really curious about is why now? Why, in this war, are you concerned for the children? This is the 3rd run in Israel and Hamas have had in the last 5 years. Children have been killed in all of them, but I don't recall this outrage from you, or anyone else the last two times. So what is about this rodeo has gotten you, and the rest of the world so focused on the innocent children? This is a serious question, not being snarky at all. I'm really curious as to why the world, in general, has suddenly become focused on the children of Gaza. No I'm not suggesting that you don't care and I've never accused you of doing so. But there seems to be so much constant disparaging of any information when anyone mentions the civilian casualties that it comes over as " Oh yes them" I'm not suggesting for one moment that that is how anyone truly feels but it gets irritating at virtually every other post it's always the same.....It's Hamas's fault,they're using them as human shields. I haven't once read anyone expressing their dicomfort at the loss of so many lives except for the international peas. As for not caring before. I have always cared,not only about the Palestinians but other countries as well where innocent civilians are being caught in the cross fire. I didn't used to post on the old board as much and to be honest I've never come across a thread that covered it. So you're wrong to assume that I only car about this particular conflict.
No one is prepared to stand up and be counted because you'll be labeled anti-Semitic? I actually don't think you're anti-Semitic, but you're always going to find a couple of people who will say you/they are. And if that's what people are afraid of, then they really shouldn't be in the conversation. You only have to look at the media to see reports of people being labelled as such because they dare to disagree that Israel is blameless. It's offensive to be accused of being such,as offensive as being called a racist to me anyhow.
This has nothing to do with the Jewish people? It has to do with Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu? Israel is a country, made up of 75% Jewish people, they are one and the same. If you blame Israel, you blame the people who live here, and most of them are Jewish. Bibi, our illustrious leader....do you think he's acting alone? He's a politician for goodness sake, if the people of Israel were solidly opposed to his actions, do you think he'd be acting? There'd be riots in the streets! A recent poll of Israelis (Jews and non-Jews) showed Netanyahu had an 85% approval rating. Israelis are sick of Hamas and their constant threats. This is where we differ. Israel is unique in so far as the country is attached to the religion from your viewpoint but to me they are two different entities. If I don't approve of what a country does, no way is it a reflection on the citizens of that country. I don't like what Putin does but it doesn't mean I don't like the Russian peopleI don't know who thinks Israel can do no wrong. That's an absurd sweeping statement. Just as absurd as saying you think Hamas can do no wrong. Even Israelis don't believe that. Nor do Americans. Why would you say such a thing? No country is always right, but Israel is doing what it thinks is best for Israel, at this moment in time. That may change tomorrow, or next week, or never, but nobody but Israelis get to decide that. Reading some of the posts on here gives one that impression,sorry. I'm just being honest
Now, saving the best for last.... "Protecting their border,which incidentally they've never declared to anyone but themselves,and conveniently grows every time there's a conflict is one thing but to do it in such a disproportionate manner is something else." WTF are you talking about? The border with Gaza? The Border with Egypt? The border with Syria, or Lebanon, or Jordan? Never declared to anyone by ourselves? Are you talking about now? Today? Or 1967? Or 1948? Or 1973? and they grow EVERY TIME there's a conflict? Could you point out where they grew in 2012? in 2006? Or any other year we had a conflict? And what disproportionate manner? WTF do you mean? That's got to be one of the most crazy statements that's been made on either of the threads about Israel. It makes no sense at all. This is a little country. I think I would have noticed if our borders changed every time we got into a pissing match with someone. I can't wait to hear about our ever changing borders, that we keep secret from the rest of the world, and the massive land grabs we have had every time we have a war. And I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.... Yes the border with Gaza and the West Bank. I can only go on various reports that I have read over time that it's difficult to ascertain exactly where the border is. You also have to admit that there is a vast difference in the land that was allocated in 1947/48 to Israel to what they occupy now. There are numerous maps out there that confirms this. Am I wrong in the belief that there are "illegal" settlements that are still under dispute? The disproportionate manner wasn't about land,it referred to their military. You have to agree that Israel's military and their munitions is far superior to anything that they're faced with. That isn't an excuse to tolerate being fired on by rockets but the use of such powerful weapons that Israel has, does reflect on the number of casualties.
And no I'm not smoking anything. I just care about the human life that's been lost. If that is wrong so be it,I can't change the person I am.
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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 4, 2014 23:50:19 GMT
I was asked to delete this thread a few days ago - as you see I declined, but it feels to me like it has now long passed the point of any constructive discussion, and I'm starting to wonder if it's time I locked it. I'd rather not do that either, but it doesn't seem as though there is any benefit in continuing the conversation in its current form. Thoughts? That feels a little controlling to me. This is a polarizing, emotional subject. Some threads are just like that, because the issues underlying those threads reflect our frequently divisive society.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 23:50:54 GMT
You are all obviously only seeing and reading what you want to see and read when the rest of the civilised world sees it differently. It is sad that the Israeli propaganda machine is so effective. If the Israeli propaganda machine is so effective, the rest of the civilized world would see it their way, right?
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Dani-Mani
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 28, 2014 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Dani-Mani on Aug 4, 2014 23:55:23 GMT
OP here, and just an FYI--I did NOT ask for this thread to be locked and I'm with scrappower--I'd find a new board if we start doing that because someone doesn't like it.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 4, 2014 23:56:22 GMT
Thank you
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 0:17:57 GMT
Becky -I can't recall saying I was " absolutely horrified" at the blockade.I fully realize why it's there. What I have suggested is that it could be a possibility that it could be manned by an International UN peacekeeping force. Not because I wanted or wish for a free for all and a free pass for Hamas but because it's one of their conditions on ending the firing. It was just a suggestion to bring this to some sort of a peaceful end. Hamas stop the missiles and Israel agrees to relax their control of the border and let a neutral entity control them such as a peacekeeping force.. Israel and the Egypt border both. I was only a suggestion,a thinking out loud moment in the search for an answer but the post was dismissed by some because the UN is useless among other remarks.
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Post by jamieson on Aug 5, 2014 0:21:09 GMT
I agree this thread has a lot of useful information on it. Things went downhill quickly with the "fuck you" and "idiot" remarks from I-95. Nothing derails a conversation like name-calling.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 0:25:41 GMT
OP here, and just an FYI--I did NOT ask for this thread to be locked and I'm with scrappower--I'd find a new board if we start doing that because someone doesn't like it. What I don't like is that the admin would even consider someone just asking for the thread to be deleted. Why is someone wasting the admins time with that kind of request. Put on your big girl panties and deal. We are adults and don't need moderation like that.
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Post by megop on Aug 5, 2014 0:41:14 GMT
Peronsally, I give I-95 a way big pass on her use of language since she is right there in the midst of it all living it every day most certainly. I'm curious, do you as well Jamieson have to think about entering bomb shelters in your daily life?
I would most certainly unleash some expletives from persons who were NOT right there living it personally throwing out linked this and that.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 5, 2014 0:46:07 GMT
OK, this is my first time using a colored font. Let's see if i did it right. How did you miss people here saying that they were distressed about the loss of life in Gaza, especially the children? I know I've said it several times, and I know others have too. I do know, in my case, I truly believe that Hamas is more to blame for that than Israel is. If Hamas had built bomb shelters, the loss of life would be significantly reduced. If they wouldn't shoot rockets from residential buildings, the civilian loss of life would be negligible. And from this side of things, it's just as tiresome to hear nothing but 'the children, look at what you're doing to the children' It might sound cold, but Israel can't fix that problem, only Hamas can, and they refuse. It is horrific to have babies dying over this fight between grown ups, but the only option Israel has is to not shoot back, and that's not going to happen. I just don't see the world holding Hamas responsible...for not safe guarding their people
OK, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that other posters were labeling you as anti-Semitic. Neither of us can control what the media says, so I tend to ignore them. I read a lot of what people are saying, in response to blogs, articles, social media etc. and find that there's a mix of idiots out there. Very few of whom know much about Israel or the Palestinians, but it doesn't stop them from spewing their ignorance all over the net (on both sides of the argument)
It's not the religion, 70% of Israelis claim to be secular. It's the culture, the heritage, the history of the Jewish people, and it is all wrapped up in the country. I don't think anyone here sees it any differently. That's not to say we all agree and march in lockstep. It's a standing joke that if you have 9 Jews arguing there will be 10 opinions offered. But when it comes to Israel, the people and the country are the same.
There's a HUGE difference between the land allocated in '47/'48 and where the lines are now, but that's because Israel was attacked by all the surrounding countries in 1948, and Israel won. Land seized in war is fair game. If the Arabs had won that war, do you think they'd be saying 'oops, OK, you lost, but here's your land back'? Hell no. Same was true in 1967. All's fair in love and war. However, you said we took more land with every conflict and that simply isn't true. Our borders have not changed significantly since 1967 when the Gaza Strip, the Golan, the West Bank and the Sinai were annexed. The Gaza border is now, as it was then, in that it was occupied territory but a solid border was established when it was turned over to the Palestinians in 2005. The border also changed when we gave the Sinai back to Egypt in return for peace....an agreement that Egypt has honored. The West Bank was also released to the Palestinians and that border was drawn when that happened (don't get me started on the settlements. I am highly opposed to those, but that's a whole 'nother thread) As the new borders were drawn, they were never a secret, or 'known only unto ourselves' but they don't change with the wind, or with each new war.
Thanks for explaining your position.
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Post by megop on Aug 5, 2014 0:49:47 GMT
You are all obviously only seeing and reading what you want to see and read when the rest of the civilised world sees it differently. It is sad that the Israeli propaganda machine is so effective. --------- Rest of the civilised (civilized) world sees differently? I highly beg to differ. There is truly one thing I've learned in all my years of policy and politics. There is the believed truth on both sides of an issue, and then there is real "truth." More times than not, there are nuggets of reality on both sides. But the REAL truth is, especially within war, there are no absolute truths as it deals with power, politics etc. To argue either side is completely right, just and correct, to me, is simply not possible. But at the end of the day, I look at who is at least attempting peace while protecting themselves, and who continues to instigate. In this matter, and believe me, I don't fall for propaganda, I'm pretty firm on who that is.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by cycworker on Aug 5, 2014 0:50:59 GMT
I really don't know how I feel anymore. I do know that my Nana always taught me that arguing about who spilled the milk won't get the floor clean. At some point, the international community needs to protect both the Jewish people - who should NOT have to live with the constant threat of Arabs wanting to 'Push them into the sea,' - and innocent Palestinian civilians who are being taught to hate. If that means a US or or UN force going in to overthrow Hamas, so be it. I don't care. I just want this to stop. I admit that yes, while it's Hamas who is putting Palestinians in danger by firing their rockets from civilian areas, I do still take issue with Israel firing back. Destroy the tunnels. Invade via the ground and take out Hamas leaders. But do NOT bomb buildings that have civilians in it. And for whatever it's worth, I consider the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be war crimes for which the US should have been prosecuted. I learned a lot reading this slide show. Not saying it's perfect or I agree with all of it, but it was a good place to start. Interesting While I can't say that I agree with everything written here, I think this article is worth reading: Article
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 5, 2014 0:54:33 GMT
Becky -I can't recall saying I was " absolutely horrified" at the blockade.I fully realize why it's there. What I have suggested is that it could be a possibility that it could be manned by an International UN peacekeeping force. Not because I wanted or wish for a free for all and a free pass for Hamas but because it's one of their conditions on ending the firing. It was just a suggestion to bring this to some sort of a peaceful end. Hamas stop the missiles and Israel agrees to relax their control of the border and let a neutral entity control them such as a peacekeeping force.. Israel and the Egypt border both. I was only a suggestion,a thinking out loud moment in the search for an answer but the post was dismissed by some because the UN is useless among other remarks. I understand, but I still go back to the original reason it exists: the Palestinians have a culture of hate against the Jews/Israel and will continue to try to kill them until that culture of hate is dismantled. Until that happens, a blockade of some type administered by someone will need to be in place. Is that something we can both agree on? Hamas lists it as one of their conditions for ending the firing. They also list a lot of other things that are very unrealistic. Israel would be foolish to relax their control of their border to people who want to murder every last one of them. And I have to say, if it were me they were trying to murder, I wouldn't be inclined to put my trust in a third party either. An Israeli has the most at stake and is likely to be the most vigilant. Look at the history. (Simplified, but true.) The Palestinians said they would quit firing if they got land. They got land (the Gaza Strip) and are using that land to fire at Israel. When Hamas actually comes through on something that they say they will do (concerning an actual lasting peace), then would be the time to trust them.* As of now, I certainly wouldn't trust my life to them keeping any promises (would you?), hence my assertion that that is a very unrealistic demand. *I had to add the parenthetical reference to a lasting peace. They certainly try their damnedest to do what they say they will when it concerns killing Jews. In that matter, they certainly keep their word. Hamas makes a lot of unrealistic demands because they know they won't be realized. Why? Because their overarching goal is simply the destruction of Israel.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 1:00:36 GMT
Becky -I can't recall saying I was " absolutely horrified" at the blockade.I fully realize why it's there. What I have suggested is that it could be a possibility that it could be manned by an International UN peacekeeping force. Not because I wanted or wish for a free for all and a free pass for Hamas but because it's one of their conditions on ending the firing. It was just a suggestion to bring this to some sort of a peaceful end. Hamas stop the missiles and Israel agrees to relax their control of the border and let a neutral entity control them such as a peacekeeping force.. Israel and the Egypt border both. I was only a suggestion,a thinking out loud moment in the search for an answer but the post was dismissed by some because the UN is useless among other remarks. Why do you think Hamas wants the UN to keep the border instead of Israel? Is it because they trust the UN more? Is it because they don't think the UN can do it as effectively as Israel does for their own protection? I think it behooves us to examine the motives of Hamas in their demands. It's not so Israel will be safer. It's so Israel will be weaker.
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Post by megop on Aug 5, 2014 1:01:00 GMT
If that means a US or or UN force going in to overthrow Hamas, so be it. ---------- Really? Think about what you are saying here. Talk about innocents being lost...I think everyone wants it to stop except for those who have the motivation to keep it going within the world of public political opinion. Are you really saying you would support US troops entering into this? Really? ?
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Post by jamieson on Aug 5, 2014 1:02:05 GMT
Peronsally, I give I-95 a way big pass on her use of language since she is right there in the midst of it all living it every day most certainly. I'm curious, do you as well Jamieson have to think about entering bomb shelters in your daily life? I would most certainly unleash some expletives from persons who were NOT right there living it personally throwing out linked this and that. I honestly don't have a clue whether I-95 is actually in Israel or Pittsburgh, it's the internet after all. Dismissing anothers opinion with name-calling is pretty low.
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Post by megop on Aug 5, 2014 1:03:49 GMT
And again, as I-95 stated, the UN is a peacekeeping force. Not a military one. I highly, HIGHLY doubt, the UN would even agree to border patrol responsibility, and moreover, I think if they did, there would be more innocent life lost.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 1:06:00 GMT
If the US or UN go in to stop the conflict, more lives will be lost. I think some are looking at this from a Western perspective. The bigger army comes in and everyone settles down and plays nice to avoid more bloodshed.
That's NOT what would happen. Hamas doesn't care about the loss of life. Who is willing to kill every last Hamas member to get this to stop? How do you tell them apart from innocent civilians? If Hamas is wiped out, another terrorist group will spring up to take its place. I don't think we understand the depth of hatred some groups have for the Jewish people.
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Post by megop on Aug 5, 2014 1:08:33 GMT
I honestly don't have a clue whether I-95 is actually in Israel or Pittsburgh, it's the internet after all. Dismissing anothers opinion with name-calling is pretty low.
-------------
Well considering she was a member of the bucket for many, many years, describing her life in Israel on non-controversial threads, I'm going to bank that it would be one heck of snow to maintain a false identity of location just to comment on this thread within the here and now. Just my opinion, and totally understand that you may not have that exposure or knowledge history.
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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 5, 2014 1:13:28 GMT
If that means a US or or UN force going in to overthrow Hamas, so be it. ---------- Really? Think about what you are saying here. Talk about innocents being lost...I think everyone wants it to stop except. Are you really saying you would support US troops entering into this? Really? ? ITA. That will never happen. US troops will never enter that conflict. No way, no how.
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Post by gypsymama on Aug 5, 2014 1:13:47 GMT
Peronsally, I give I-95 a way big pass on her use of language since she is right there in the midst of it all living it every day most certainly. I'm curious, do you as well Jamieson have to think about entering bomb shelters in your daily life? I would most certainly unleash some expletives from persons who were NOT right there living it personally throwing out linked this and that. I honestly don't have a clue whether I-95 is actually in Israel or Pittsburgh, it's the internet after all. Dismissing anothers opinion with name-calling is pretty low. well bless your heart you poor little fragile flower! you CAN put her on ignore, can't you?
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Post by megop on Aug 5, 2014 1:22:45 GMT
Jamison is a good egg too. We all have different history of what we have seen on this and the other forum.
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Post by jamieson on Aug 5, 2014 1:25:25 GMT
I'm not fragile at all, I just don't appreciate anyone resorting to telling people to fuck off. I have no clue who the poster is or what their backstory is, all I have to judge people on is what they write.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 1:30:08 GMT
I'm wondering why a Canadian is calling for the US to intervene? If you want military intervention from the outside, why aren't you calling for the Canadian military to overthrow Hamas, cycworker?
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